August 16, 20177 yr I think the updates look fine. IMO, the problem was with the garage facade not the tower, and it doesn't look the garage changed at all.
August 16, 20177 yr What would be the reasoning that they can not put the parking garage under the tower and not off to the side of it?
August 16, 20177 yr What would be the reasoning that they can not put the parking garage under the tower and not off to the side of it? $$$ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 16, 20177 yr ^Actually it is under the building, or at least it's under most of the building, as you can see in "Playhouse Square Img09" on the left side of the image. They couldn't fit the entire garage under the footprint of the building because it would be a horribly inefficient parking garage and would need 10+ floors to get enough parking to support the apartments above. Either that, or the building's footprint would need to take up almost the entire parcel and you would be left with a much shorter building (probably O or U shaped) to get the same number of units. And that wouldn't solve the problem of the massive garage facade anyway.
August 16, 20177 yr In image 3 there is an area designated as "potential retail" along Euclid. Was this part of the original design?
August 16, 20177 yr I wonder if they explored the option of adding some shallow aparment units to the garage frontage along Euclid. and maybe add a few floors to the height to compensate. That would be much nicer then a stand-alone 4 story garage (no matter how you dress it up). Especially considering a large goal of this project is to activate the area more.
August 16, 20177 yr In image 3 there is an area designated as "potential retail" along Euclid. Was this part of the original design? I believe so. If I recall correctly from the original press regarding the project, the idea is that if in the future retail becomes viable option, parking spaces behind the faux store front windows would be taken over and retail built, although I don't think if would be very deep.
August 16, 20177 yr Those white panels look HORRIBLE. They cheapen the original design which, albeit somewhat derivative, is still a modern take adopted by more progressive cities. The new Hilton is our first really modern building and a welcome break from the monotony of Cleveland beige. The PS tower was a chance to continue that progressive design. Not with these changes. The white stripes remind me of some of those generic '60's/70's towers built in other nondescript mid-western towns like Des Moines and Omaha. My only question is were the changes prompted by the Review Committee or did the architects add them before any input by the committee? While we can dispute the garage issue the tower itself wasn't broke - no need to fix it.
August 16, 20177 yr Yeesh! Those white panels are indeed awful. If a change is to be made on the East elevation, it should be adding some slight sculptural modification to add interest, not the erzats application of thoe (white?) colored strips. Who wore it better? See the Ohio Savings Plaza - which actually used such treatment to a decent effect, albeit decades ago.
August 16, 20177 yr Welcome, cadmen[/member]! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
August 17, 20177 yr to be honest the modern look and the elevation renders were so exciting i barely registered the white facade addition. its great to see and no doubt will be a hit with subscribers and everybody.
August 17, 20177 yr Those white panels look HORRIBLE. They cheapen the original design which, albeit somewhat derivative, is still a modern take adopted by more progressive cities. The new Hilton is our first really modern building and a welcome break from the monotony of Cleveland beige. The PS tower was a chance to continue that progressive design. Not with these changes. The white stripes remind me of some of those generic '60's/70's towers built in other nondescript mid-western towns like Des Moines and Omaha. My only question is were the changes prompted by the Review Committee or did the architects add them before any input by the committee? While we can dispute the garage issue the tower itself wasn't broke - no need to fix it. Thats my question also...what sparked the need for the white panels? I don't recall anyone complaining about the building...complaints were with the garage design. Hopefully they can still go back to original design of tower.
August 17, 20177 yr They might have been worried it would blend into the sky like the Hilton with all that reflective glass, but I would still take the original design over the white panels.
August 17, 20177 yr mack34[/member] personally, I agree. The original design was better. But, there were a significant number of people complaining.
August 17, 20177 yr I like the new renderings, with the exception of the white stripes on the eastern facing facade. I think the first rendering of the updated design is not necessary accurate. Why does the first rendering showing the east side of the building show white stripes, but all other renderings look like the building has two shades of grey stripes? Could the first rendering of the apt building on the CPC photo gallery be wrong, or is only the side of the building to have white stripes? If only the eastern facing portion of the apt building is to have white stripes, this has got to change. And please no white stripes on the garage either.
August 17, 20177 yr They might have been worried it would blend into the sky like the Hilton with all that reflective glass, but I would still take the original design over the white panels. I like the way the Hilton "disappears" sometimes; but given this apartment's placement as a portal to PHS that effect wouldn't work as well. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
August 17, 20177 yr City wins compromise adding retail to garage for Playhouse Square apartment tower http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2017/08/city_wins_compromise_adding_re.html#incart_river_home Great job here by the city, forcing retail into the initial build out. Hopefully this doesn't cause any delays.
August 17, 20177 yr There are folks on these forums that typically know when RFQ's go out for construction trades. Has anybody heard if PHS has their ducks in a row to start construction soon? The articles say ground breaking "late this year" but we know how these things go.
August 17, 20177 yr There are folks on these forums that typically know when RFQ's go out for construction trades. Has anybody heard if PHS has their ducks in a row to start construction soon? The articles say ground breaking "late this year" but we know how these things go. From what I've heard from a PHS employee (though not directly working on this project) is that they wanted to have everything ready before they even announced the project. The financing is all set and ready to go and, from what I have heard, they have the GC/PM ready to go. I am not certain if that has led to all of the subs being in place, etc. I can try to find out, I'll be having dinner with them next week.
August 17, 20177 yr ^To the article's point though, I'm not sure if there will be a need to find additional financing, as that could change the game.
August 17, 20177 yr From what I've heard from a PHS employee (though not directly working on this project) is that they wanted to have everything ready before they even announced the project. The financing is all set and ready to go and, from what I have heard, they have the GC/PM ready to go. I am not certain if that has led to all of the subs being in place, etc. I can try to find out, I'll be having dinner with them next week. Thanks. That would be interesting to know. I remember the scuttlebutt over a year ago when Stark was supposedly hiring subs for HVAC or something for nuCLEus, and that obviously went nowhere.
August 17, 20177 yr I wonder if they explored the option of adding some shallow aparment units to the garage frontage along Euclid. and maybe add a few floors to the height to compensate. That would be much nicer then a stand-alone 4 story garage (no matter how you dress it up). Especially considering a large goal of this project is to activate the area more. City Planning Director Freddy Collier asked in response whether Playhouse Square would consider building a multi-story "liner building" in front of the garage to hide it entirely and to front Euclid with retail and offices or apartments. Art Falco, the president and CEO of nonprofit Playhouse Square, said that at the city's request, the organization analyzed the question with Hines, its development partner. Financial limits The upshot would be that adding a liner building with offices or additional apartments along Euclid Avenue would create a $10 million gap in project financing, requiring a subsidy, Falco said. Additionally, the garage would have to rise from five to seven stories in height to accommodate additional need for spaces. At least we know people are asking the right questions in these committees and there was serious consideration. Still, it's a shame nothing could get done... I can't get over that garage!
August 17, 20177 yr Did anyone notice the rendering showing the addition of a column of balconies running down the height of the tower on the northeast side? Hopefully the east face of the building isn't as ugly as the rendering. The rest I can live with. Renderings never look exactly like the reality, sometimes they look worse and sometimes better.
August 17, 20177 yr ^^ I think if that question was taken into consideration at the beginning of the design phase, they could've found a solution to this. The current proposed layout has the garage fronting Euclid, while the residential portion of the building hides the garage from the E 17th side. They have this totally backwards. Their priority should have been on hiding view of the garage from Euclid, not E. 17th (including access to the garage). All vehicular access to the garage should've been limited to E. 17th and Brownell Ct. in the back. From the perspective of a pedestrian on Euclid, it shouldn't even look like a parking garage is a part of this tower. It's just lazy urban design.
August 17, 20177 yr ^^ I think if that question was taken into consideration at the beginning of the design phase, they could've found a solution to this. The current proposed layout has the garage fronting Euclid, while the residential portion of the building hides the garage from the E 17th side. They have this totally backwards. Their priority should have been on hiding view of the garage from Euclid, not E. 17th (including access to the garage). All vehicular access to the garage should've been limited to E. 17th and Brownell Ct. in the back. From the perspective of a pedestrian on Euclid, it shouldn't even look like a parking garage is a part of this tower. It's just lazy urban design. So is there any reason they wouldn't want the parking garage entranceway on Brownell Ct.? If it were to be rotated, maybe the back facing Euclid could include more retail, and maybe liner apartments.
September 9, 20177 yr What's the next step for this project? Are they waiting on more approval or are they set to break ground?
September 14, 20177 yr It's too soon to worry. I'm confident that it will get built, even if the project is slightly delayed
September 14, 20177 yr Still waiting on news about this project. I would expect some regular delays, but PHS did an excellent job getting a lot of the financing lined up before making their announcement. I'd expect a typical delay in closing and the usual bureaucratic design delays, other than that I am very confident in this project.
September 14, 20177 yr everyone keep saying that they have their financing but has the financing closed? This alone can take a year depending on the lender and attorneys involved.
September 15, 20177 yr everyone keep saying that they have their financing but has the financing closed? This alone can take a year depending on the lender and attorneys involved. I believe they are financing it themselves so it should hopefully be a much simpler process than some of the complex financing packages that are needed for other large projects.
September 28, 20177 yr *bump Why bump? No one has forgotten about this and if there is news, it will be posted here immediately.
September 28, 20177 yr Yup. Patience. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
September 28, 20177 yr Everyone here seems to think this thing is going to be under construction with a month or so. I am much less inclined to believe it. Hard construction will likely not being this year. I have no direct information or knowledge but I highly doubt all of the financing is closed. It can take well north of a year to close the capital stack.
September 28, 20177 yr From a Crain's article earlier this week, discussed here: https://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24830.msg875745.html#new http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170924/news/136586/downtown-cleveland-feeling-more-home At Playhouse Square, Art Falco, president, has told architects and contractors to push for a groundbreaking later this year for 319 apartments and street-level retail at 1650 Euclid Ave. for its Playhouse Square Tower. The nonprofit operator of the city's restored vaudeville and early film theaters is pursuing the $135 million project, Falco said, only after two real estate developers passed on the proposal because it provided inadequate returns for the risk involved. Being a nonprofit brings Playhouse Square advantages it believes will help it forge a deal. Playhouse Square's tax-exempt status means it will eschew federal taxes on rental income in its downtown district. It also can pursue tax-exempt bonds prized by investors, he said, and take a lower rate of return than for-profit developers. I have no inside info, but from the reports and PSF quotes in various articles, I expect the financing of this project to be much simpler than the other big projects around town.
September 28, 20177 yr I think the quote represents developer optimism. He mentions getting a non-school TIF for the project. Has the city even approved the TIF yet? This is the fist step to lining up the rest of the capital stack. I'd love to be proven wrong but I would put odds of a PHS tower getting built this year at very slim.
September 28, 20177 yr I think the quote represents developer optimism. He mentions getting a non-school TIF for the project. Has the city even approved the TIF yet? This is the fist step to lining up the rest of the capital stack. I'd love to be proven wrong but I would put odds of a PHS tower getting built this year at very slim. Agreed, but I walk away from that quote with optimism. Originally, the target for groundbreaking was next May, so to say they're going to try to begin by year's end indicates to me that things are going smoothly.
September 28, 20177 yr ^^Non-school TIFs are rubber stamped at this point. Hard to imagine that will be an issue. I have no idea how realistic Falco's timeline is (I don't believe any developer till I see ground broken), but I also don't think we're in FEB/NuCLEUS territory with months and years of cobbling together financing. If this thing really doesn't need much more than as-of-right tax abatement, the TIF (which would be relevant only to the garage and retail space, given the tax abatement ), and 501©(3) bonds from PSF, there really aren't a lot of outside parties to negotiate with.
September 28, 20177 yr Non school TIFs still require legislation, actually 2 pieces of legislation. Until i see any legislation, I am skeptical of this being built soon.
September 29, 20177 yr ^Yes, legislation that routinely gets approved without controversy (which is what I meant by rubber-stamped). There literally hadn't been a post for 5 months in the CAC thread until the "City council approves TIF" news broke. I'm not predicting a 2017 ground breaking, but I do think this one is likely to move faster than most big Cleveland projects that have to juggle so many things, like historic credits, NMTC, EB-5 investments, port authority bonds (if there's even volume cap still available), state environmental/asbestos grants... We'll see. I could be way off.
September 29, 20177 yr they can begin no construction until two separate TIF ordinances are approved. 515 had their TIF ordinances at the end of 2016 and construction just started. The capital stack was not overly complex either.
September 29, 20177 yr From a Crain's article earlier this week, discussed here: https://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,24830.msg875745.html#new http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20170924/news/136586/downtown-cleveland-feeling-more-home At Playhouse Square, Art Falco, president, has told architects and contractors to push for a groundbreaking later this year for 319 apartments and street-level retail at 1650 Euclid Ave. for its Playhouse Square Tower. Is this a for sure thing now or just generally mentioning the retail since it's been considered? https://www.instagram.com/cle_and_beyond/https://www.instagram.com/jbkaufer/
October 10, 20177 yr Fill this space with 34 stories of residential goodness.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 11, 20177 yr Still on track for end of the year (but probably early next year) groundbreaking
October 11, 20177 yr That 34 story residential goodness will definitely fill in the gaps between Downtown and CSU's Rhodes Tower... Would sure love to see a multitude of cranes downtown.
October 11, 20177 yr I’d be very happy to see a sign up - implying there’s going to be a major upgrade to that site that’s now a dumb parking lot on an oh-so-valuable land.....
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