@KFM44107 how much academy presence is there in cleveland now? Is it in addition to the highway patrol academy training?

40 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

@KFM44107 how much academy presence is there in cleveland now? Is it in addition to the highway patrol academy training?

We have always had our own academy. Because of the number of classes they have been putting through they were sending people down to the highway patrol and TriC as well. I can tell you that we will no longer be sending classes down to Columbus, but this next class will be a Tri C, and the class that just graduated was at Tri C. Basically those classes go to Tri C to complete all the OPOTA (state mandated classes) and then they come back up to Cleveland to take the extra Cleveland specific training. My class is doing it all in Cleveland at our own academy. 

 

The academy staff, like every other department, is understaffed. It's a catch 22. We need more people but we don't have enough people to train all the new people. And as soon as a class graduates to fill the streets, an equal amount of officers retire. Like 60 percent of the force is within a few years of retiring. 

 

Edited November 17, 20195 yr by KFM44107

16 hours ago, KFM44107 said:

We have always had our own academy. Because of the number of classes they have been putting through they were sending people down to the highway patrol and TriC as well. I can tell you that we will no longer be sending classes down to Columbus, but this next class will be a Tri C, and the class that just graduated was at Tri C. Basically those classes go to Tri C to complete all the OPOTA (state mandated classes) and then they come back up to Cleveland to take the extra Cleveland specific training. My class is doing it all in Cleveland at our own academy. 

 

The academy staff, like every other department, is understaffed. It's a catch 22. We need more people but we don't have enough people to train all the new people. And as soon as a class graduates to fill the streets, an equal amount of officers retire. Like 60 percent of the force is within a few years of retiring. 

 

If the city was smart...yes, I actually said that...they would consider a new fire training academy as well.  That would open up land to realign dead mans curve and get rid of an undersized antiquated academy as well.  The FD had to send their arson investigators to Columbus as well when that was going on, and it was the main reason I decided not to explore a different job description.   I believe the reason the CPD recruits had to go to OHP for training wasn't because of numbers, but rather the investigation by the Feds.  CPD sent all new recruits to Columbus until they were again approved, which is why I chose against the arson unit.  

As much as the city and the training staff from CPD and CFD don't want to hear this, Tri-C has the best facility around.  As far as training goes, Cleveland should use Tri-C and their facilities.  Cleveland could staff the training classes with their own personnel in order to teach Cleveland SOP's/G.O.'s (for police and fire) and not have to worry about spending money on training facilities.  I'm sure there could be a finance package that would benefit both the city and Tri-C that could make this happen.

As far as an HQ, I see nothing wrong with new site.  They should, however, still have a good presence downtown, maybe by utilizing the facility on Payne Ave more.

Here is related article from cleveland.com: 

 

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019/11/city-council-takes-up-plan-to-build-new-cleveland-police-headquarters-in-kinsman-neighborhood.html

Edited November 19, 20195 yr by skiwest

On 11/15/2019 at 2:22 PM, Pugu said:

What a STUPID location. A police headquarters--for ANY city--belongs in its Downtown.  3rd District was already moved from E20 all the way out past E 36 and now the main HQ is also leaving Downtown.  What $hitty leadership and decision-making this city has.

 

I just noticed--I got TEN thumbsdown for this comment and zero any other icons. I then in 3-4 following posts, responding to different folks, explained why it should be downtown. But the 10 to 0 ratio is interesting---so I must ask why, oh why is E 75 Street, which is not easily transit accessible EXCEPT from downtown and maybe one or two other lines, and not walking distance to other city departments a good idea?  Keep mind zone cars don't need parking at the HQ wherever it is located, and the Academy itself could be on E. 75 or anywhere in the city. But why in the world is E. 75 Street a better location than Downtown? (And trying copy Chicago or Dallas is not a wise answer as we are certainly a better city than Dallas, and there's no reason to follow Chicago or any other city for that matter if the main idea does not make sense.)

Does the CPD still maintain its horse stables off of the Shoreway?  My Dad, a former city employee, used to take me to the stables to see the horses as a kid.

24 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Does the CPD still maintain its horse stables off of the Shoreway?  My Dad, a former city employee, used to take me to the stables to see the horses as a kid.

 

Yes

17 hours ago, Pugu said:

 

But why in the world is E. 75 Street a better location than Downtown?

 

On 11/17/2019 at 12:14 PM, Pugu said:

There is a certain efficiency you get by aggregating workers together, esp where you need real time services--like pulling up a file, going to a police lab for results, dropping off lab samples, etc. That same agglomeration efficiency is not limited to one city department as the city is complex and must work across departments. Hence, for "HQ functions" it should be Downtown so that CPD can work with other city departments to have the operating efficiency.  

 

. . . . When "citizens" need to go to the police PLACE and give a statement---its at their [kindof] local distrct and not at HQ.

 

I'm not sure I understand your point, but I'm trying. 

 

Keep in mind that the "lack of access" on E. 75th that you're complaining about will improve by the time this happens.  The rapid station is already nearby and may be renovated in the near future.  The Opportunity Corridor will be complete, improving highway access and will probably bring improved bus service as well.  So it seems premature to say that transit will be bad there; and there are reasons to be optimistic that it could be better than the current location.

 

You seem to be saying that there is efficiency in aggregating workers, such that it is good to consolidate labs and training and vehicle maintenance (support services) in one location, but that "HQ" needs to be downtown so that those same workers can be closer to other city departments  (Or are you saying that all police department workers need to be close to other city department workers?)  Would there be an advantage to having all city workers in one building?  (I can think of several disadvantages.)

 

I can see why some police functions (like a training facility) need more space than is readily available downtown, but I don't understand what the "HQ functions" are that benefit from being in physical proximity to other city departments.  As you said, ordinary citizens generally don't need to go to HQ.  Most of my business is by phone, email, and video conference -- and government is usually trailing business so that is likely in the future.  Can you give some further examples where different police functions benefit from being really close to other city departments? 

 

How spread out are the other city departments?  How far away from City Hall are they?  How far away from City Hall would it be reasonable to locate the police HQ?

Right next door at the E 79th St red line station, building permits were just filed today for the $8 million renovation.

On 11/20/2019 at 2:11 PM, Foraker said:

 

 

I'm not sure I understand your point, but I'm trying. 

 

Keep in mind that the "lack of access" on E. 75th that you're complaining about will improve by the time this happens.  The rapid station is already nearby and may be renovated in the near future.  The Opportunity Corridor will be complete, improving highway access and will probably bring improved bus service as well.  So it seems premature to say that transit will be bad there; and there are reasons to be optimistic that it could be better than the current location.

 

You seem to be saying that there is efficiency in aggregating workers, such that it is good to consolidate labs and training and vehicle maintenance (support services) in one location, but that "HQ" needs to be downtown so that those same workers can be closer to other city departments  (Or are you saying that all police department workers need to be close to other city department workers?)  Would there be an advantage to having all city workers in one building?  (I can think of several disadvantages.)

 

I can see why some police functions (like a training facility) need more space than is readily available downtown, but I don't understand what the "HQ functions" are that benefit from being in physical proximity to other city departments.  As you said, ordinary citizens generally don't need to go to HQ.  Most of my business is by phone, email, and video conference -- and government is usually trailing business so that is likely in the future.  Can you give some further examples where different police functions benefit from being really close to other city departments? 

 

How spread out are the other city departments?  How far away from City Hall are they?  How far away from City Hall would it be reasonable to locate the police HQ?

As of right now, outside of the districts and some specialized units like Hopkins, mounted Patrol, and some staff at Burke most specialized units are either at HQ or at public safety central (the old third). This new HQ would unify them.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they left a significant special presence downtown. Like a large substation, if you will. 

 

^ 

Councilman Kerry McCormack urged police to design a building that’s a far cry from the appearance of the Justice Center.

“How do we create a headquarters that screams to the public, ‘You’re welcome here, come on in,’?” McCormack said. “Really, a building that opens up to the community, versus the 70s Brutalism that has done the exact opposite.”

 

Great point, Councilman.

Cleveland Officials Have No Cost Estimate For New Police Headquarters

Nick Castele

November 25, 2019

 

Cleveland officials say they don’t know how much it will cost to build a new police headquarters along the Opportunity Corridor, but it may exceed the $60 million originally slated for the project,

 

At a Monday morning committee meeting, city council members pressed administration officials to provide cost estimates and explain why police now plan to move their center of operations outside Downtown.

 

“Is it prudent for us to lock into a location if we don’t know the cost?” Councilman Tony Brancatelli asked at the meeting.

 

https://www.ideastream.org/news/cleveland-officials-have-no-cost-estimate-for-new-police-headquarters

Edited November 26, 20195 yr by MuRrAy HiLL

I fully expect it to be a $100 million project.

 

 

Edited December 8, 20195 yr by KJP

That takes up a rather larger than expected portion of OC... Why is it so big and widespread, so unnecessary considering so much private development is rising?

Its really not that large of an area compared to the total amount of vacant land around there. Only 10-12 acres out of 150 acres of city owned land there. From the picture in KJP's post above, the site is the top of the far left of the highlighted area. 

Here's an idea. Look at how much shorter the walk is between the RTA station and the CPD HQ with the addition of the pathway. The hitch is that NS would have to sell the land for it, and the walkway would have to be well-lighted and secure, not dark and lined with thick vegetation. I realize this would be next to the police headquarters, but there's probably more paper pushers there than patrolmen.

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by KJP

I suppose moving the GCRTA station to E. 75th is a no go?

21 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

I suppose moving the GCRTA station to E. 75th is a no go?

 

No. The tracks are on a curve east of East 75th (can't have a wide gap between the train & platform to conform to ADA) and elevated west of East 75th. Also the RTA tracks aren't separated to insert a platform in between them, and building two building two platforms would be more expensive (let alone on an elevated right of way).

Wow.

 

I can just picture people trying to make their way from the GCRTA station in Dec - Feb to PD HQ along that relatively barren, brush-filled stretch of land, with howling northwesterly winds.

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

23 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Wow.

 

I can just picture people trying to make their way from the GCRTA station in Dec - Feb to PD HQ along that relatively barren, brush-filled stretch of land, with howling northwesterly winds.

Probably no colder than walking up W. 3  from Superior on a day with a north wind - although Ontario would be more sheltered.

There's no shelter in that area between 79th and 75th and enclosing the walkway may actually create more problems than exposure to the elements.

There's no shelter via the existing route, which is "sort of" existing because sections of the sidewalk are gone. EDIT: by the way, the distance via the existing path without a building next to the sidewalks and outside of the RTA station's grounds is 0.27 miles....

 

So the difference in distance from the middle of the RTA platform to the middle of the block on the west side of East 75th, between the tracks and Grand Avenue:

 

+ via the NW corner of East 79th and Grand Avenue is a 0.45-mile or 2,400-foot walk at 2 mph is 13 minutes, 30 seconds

 

 

 

+ via the proposed new walkway along and above the south side of the RTA Red Line is a 0.25-mile or 1,300-foot walk at 2 mph is 7 minutes, 30 seconds

 

 

The view looking east along what remains of the sidewalk along the north side of Grand Avenue, looking west from East 79th Street:

 

 

The view looking north along the west side of East 79th Street, looking north from Grand Avenue:

 

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by KJP

39 minutes ago, bjk said:

Probably no colder than walking up W. 3  from Superior on a day with a north wind - although Ontario would be more sheltered.

I walk this everyday. It's brutal. 

The street-level views look much better than those that are overhead.

10 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

I walk this everyday. It's brutal. 

 

Walking in places away from the lake and/or downtown are always less slammed by wind.

 

9 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

The street-level views look much better than those that are overhead.

 

A walk in the countryside can be pleasant....  ? 

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by KJP

Perhaps a shuttle between RTA station and police HQ might be another option. 

 

37 minutes ago, skiwest said:

Perhaps a shuttle between RTA station and police HQ might be another option. 

 

 

A shuttle van/bus between the station (how about both RTA stations on East 79th?) and police HQ would cost more than $100,000 per year (60-70% of RTA's costs are labor). People could walk to the police HQ in less time if they just miss a shuttle.

 

BTW, capital costs are easier to come up with than operating costs. It's why this and other recent RTA station rebuilds are being designed with ramps and not elevators.

 

BTW: in case you were wondering if the #2 bus on East 79th could serve as the shuttle by slightly rerouting it, it cannot. It operates only on an hourly basis, and even then it operates from 6 a.m. to 7 p.m. weekdays only. There is no weekend service. That doesn't mean the #2 route shouldn't be shifted one block to provide better access, however.

Edited December 12, 20195 yr by KJP

I assume there’s no economic feasibility of asking Orlando to move into a brand new building on City land in trade for the Orlando room for a police HQ?

10 minutes ago, Clevecane said:

I assume there’s no economic feasibility of asking Orlando to move into a brand new building on City land in trade for the Orlando room for a police HQ?

 

Cool idea, but unfortunately no -- considering the city says it's in a hurry to get this done.

 

BTW, be wary when the city says it's in a hurry to get things done. We end up with regretful urban planning outcomes when the city is in a hurry to get a project to completion -- Waterfront Line, Browns stadium on the lakefront, now this.

CDC is seeking answers....

 

https://www.cleveland.com/opinion/2019/12/there-is-a-strong-case-for-building-police-hq-on-the-opportunity-corridor-why-didnt-cleveland-make-it-sooner.html

Yet they are apparently having second thoughts...

No.

Do tell!

"Yes, thinking of a police headquarters as an economic multiplier is unusual and may be unprecedented for a major city..."

 

...and remarkably stupid too.

I consider the police station to be a foundation for future development. It certainly would help in that regard. A foundation by itself does not create an economic multiplier but it does support future development.

1 hour ago, TBideon said:

"Yes, thinking of a police headquarters as an economic multiplier is unusual and may be unprecedented for a major city..."

 

...and remarkably stupid too.

Can you give us some supporting information that will help us understand why this would be "remarkably stupid?" 
Simply stating that it would be stupid doesn't help us understand why.

My opinion is that anyone who thinks a police headquarters is some kind of economic engine is remarkably stupid, or at least has a remarkably stupid belief. My evidence, and I was unaware I needed to provide any, is forthcoming.

43 minutes ago, TBideon said:

My opinion is that anyone who thinks a police headquarters is some kind of economic engine is remarkably stupid, or at least has a remarkably stupid belief. My evidence, and I was unaware I needed to provide any, is forthcoming.

U ain’t getting any economic engine if the area is perceived to be unsafe. And we already know that some developers are hesitant to build over there because of those perceptions. Putting the police headquarters there does help alleviate those concerns so indirectly it does impact economics (not to mention the impact of infusing 600-1000ish workers in the area). So putting all that negativity to the side and looking at it logically, there’s logical justification for doing it

It may be bring a donut shop. then again, there isn't even a donut shop across the Justice Center right now, so......

All of this may be moot anyway...

2 hours ago, TBideon said:

My opinion is that anyone who thinks a police headquarters is some kind of economic engine is remarkably stupid, or at least has a remarkably stupid belief. My evidence, and I was unaware I needed to provide any, is forthcoming.

 

You only "need" to provide evidence for your opinions if you want to persuade people who don't agree with you.

Not with a $60M starting point it isnt.

 

THURSDAY, DECEMBER 19, 2019

City gets pushback on police HQ in Opportunity Corridor

 

Like a traffic cop directing traffic at a downtown intersection, two interest groups have reportedly given Mayor Frank Jackson's administration the stop hand and a whistle for going the wrong way with its proposed new Cleveland Police Department (CPD) headquarters (HQ).

According to a Jackson administration source, the rebuke reportedly came from two interest groups -- the local business community and from downtown law firms.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2019/12/city-gets-pushback-on-police-hq-in.html

I agree with the arguments of the local business community

and all of the Attorneys arguments.

So does that mean that opportunity Corridor site is DOA

( Dead on Arrival )?

My cynical guess would be the business community is “concerned” because the city is using its own land and not putting money in anybody’s pocket. 

1 hour ago, bumsquare said:

My cynical guess would be the business community is “concerned” because the city is using its own land and not putting money in anybody’s pocket. 

If they shut this down they better damn well have concrete plans to develop the land

Despite push back from various groups looks like some prelim work is out for bid.

 

RFPs/RFQs: Police Headquarters: Material Testing, Geotechnical, Environmental and General Engineering Services

The City of Cleveland is soliciting proposals from pre-qualified ODOT firms for engineering services for new Police Headquarters located west of East 75th St. and Grand Avenue.

 

http://www.city.cleveland.oh.us/node/164337

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2020/01/plan-to-build-cleveland-police-headquarters-along-opportunity-corridor-in-kinsman-clears-hurdle.html

Well.... at least something is going to move there. I really didn't think there would be much besides some sporadic low income shops.

Edited January 22, 20205 yr by TBideon