Just as an aside, our ~1,800 square foot condo near the SCPA was recently appraised by the Hamilton County Auditor for ~$220K.  We sent in the letter arguing that a condo about the same size a few doors down just weeks ago sold for $400K and that ours was probably worth what we paid for it about three years ago.  I'm not sure what company Dusty contacted with, but from what I hear they seem to be particularly bad at appraising especially in urban neighborhoods.

^ Aren't your property taxes based largely on the county appraisal? I've never seen anybody argue with the county their house was worth more than appraised.

I did feel kind of bad that they would appraise our property so much lower than its worth.  Didn't seem to fair to bail on our obligation to the community.  That being said, we didn't argue it was worth what we thought it was worth.  We just argued it was worth what we paid for it a few years ago.

We just had a newly renovated 5000 sq. ft., 6 apartment + storefront walkup be appraised by Dusty for $196,000.

 

We didn't complain, but I have to say I was surprised. The way Cincinnati sets their rates they don't lose money, but it would seem that the schools certainly do (not to mention the streetcar).

 

I assume that they either have a limit on how much of an increase can be imposed in any one 3-year cycle, or they very heavily discount properties that are in "emerging" neighborhoods, cause they don't know anything about the momentum in places like OTR.

I had the same thing happen to me. They auditor revalued my condo for a few thousand dollars more than the previous valuation that was done three years ago, but nowhere near what it would actually sell for if I put it on the market today. I wonder if Dusty's hatred of all things Downtown/OTR is showing and they're purposefully undervaluing those properties.

^ I have thought exactly the same thing.

^ If he's undervaluing the properties, he's ultimately doing you a favor. The county's assessment means next to nothing when it comes to the actual market value and what you could get for your house. It's possible his hatred is clouding his judgement, but if he really hated the urban core and wanted to screw residents over, he'd overvalue the properties and make you pay more.

 

I did feel kind of bad that they would appraise our property so much lower than its worth.  Didn't seem to fair to bail on our obligation to the community.  That being said, we didn't argue it was worth what we thought it was worth.  We just argued it was worth what we paid for it a few years ago.

 

My house in CUF jumped up in value about 40% according to Dusty. If you really feel bad you can write me a check for the additional taxes I'll owe next year, and I'll make sure the county gets it!

All that is happening now is the informal review process. It may or may not equal the the final assessment in January.

 

One of my OTR properties is proposed to be raised 50% and nothing has been improved on that property for 10 years.

Fair Market Value (what a home should sell for) isn't the same AT ALL as its Tax Assessed Value (county appraised values for property tax purposes).  TAV are almost always lower, and sometimes by a lot, than FMVs, plus there's a bias against older homes when appraising them for tax purposes.  Luckily for those of us who like older or historic properties and have invested a lot of time and money into their preservation, we get a break on property taxes!!! 

 

I may be wrong but I suppose there's a bias against older homes because it's presumed that structural types of decline caused by longer exposure to deteriorating environmental conditions (causing things like roof, basement, and foundation issues), termite damage, possibly even the higher risk of hazardous materials like asbestos, etc., AND just more years of wear and tear than in newer structures.  I doubt if the criteria used to assess values here are based on any negative sentiment Dusty Rhodes may have about downtown.

If people really want to pay less property tax, buy a small house in an uncool part of town.  The biggest complainers are those who buy big homes in areas that are known to be expensive.  It's no coincidence that COAST and the Cincinnati Tea Party operate out of Hyde Park.  The worst is when someone inherits a house and then complains about the property taxes. 

I would like to hear the logic straight from the auditor's office about how these valuations were done. Another unit in my condo association sold for $100k in 2013 and sold again for $190k in 2016. Banks are very strict these days about not issuing mortgages for more than what a home or condo is actually worth. So if the new owner got a mortgage for $190k, it's safe to say that it's actually worth $190k. Therefore, you would think that the auditor's office (or the company doing the revaluations) would see that one unit in our HOA had its value nearly double from 2013 to 2016, and raise the value of the other units accordingly. However they only raised the valuation of my unit 4.5% from its previous selling price in 2012.

 

I am happy to pay my fair share of property taxes based on what my condo is actually worth. However I'm not going to write to auditor and say "raise my valuation" if they're not doing a good job of correctly valuing other properties in my neighborhood. What needs to happen is that they need to do a better job of valuing the entire neighborhood.

An arm's length sale is the "end all be all" of a property valuation.  In my head the auditor is not really set up to deal with spikes in housing prices in very small geographic areas and I am more than ok with that. 

I'm having a hard time understanding why people are complaining about lower TAVs, when they're entirely different than FMVs  :wtf:

Help me understand. What is the purpose of assessing a property at a significantly lower amount than what it's worth? Like, maybe $70k lower than what it would sell for on the market today.

For a forum of persons who are interested in real property, as a group you seem to be incredibly un-curious about the actual process.

 

The Auditor performs a function that is prescribed by a statute. Here is what it says:

 

5713.03. Taxable valuation of real property [Effective March 27, 2013]

The county auditor, from the best sources of information available, shall determine, as nearly as practicable, the  true value of the fee simple estate, as if unencumbered but subject to any effects from the exercise of police powers or from other governmental actions, of each separate tract, lot, or parcel of real property and of buildings, structures, and improvements located thereon and the current agricultural use value of land valued for tax purposes in accordance with section 5713.31 of the Revised Code, in every district, according to the rules prescribed by this chapter and section 5715.01 of the Revised Code, and in accordance with the uniform rules and methods of valuing and assessing real property as adopted, prescribed, and promulgated by the tax commissioner.

 

The auditor shall determine the taxable value of all real property by reducing its true or current agricultural use value by the percentage ordered by the commissioner.

 

In determining the true value of any tract, lot, or parcel of real estate under this section, if such tract, lot, or parcel has been the subject of an arm’s length sale between a willing seller and a willing buyer within a reasonable length of time, either before or after the tax lien date, the auditor may consider the sale price of such tract, lot, or parcel to be the true value for taxation purposes. However, the sale price in an arm’s length transaction between a willing seller and a willing buyer shall not be considered the true value of the property sold if subsequent to the sale:

(A) The tract, lot, or parcel of real estate loses value due to some casualty;

(B) An improvement is added to the property.

 

Nothing in this section or section 5713.01 of the Revised Code and no rule adopted under section 5715.01 of the Revised Code shall require the county auditor to change the true value in money of any property in any year except a year in which the tax commissioner is required to determine under section 5715.24 of the Revised Code whether the property has been assessed as required by law. The county auditor shall adopt and use a real property record approved by the commissioner for each tract, lot, or parcel of real property, setting forth the true and taxable value of land and, in the case of land valued in accordance with section 5713.31 of the Revised Code, its current agricultural use value, the number of acres of arable land, permanent pasture land, woodland, and wasteland in each tract, lot, or parcel. The auditor shall record pertinent information and the true and taxable value of each building, structure, or improvement to land, which value shall be included as a separate part of the total value of each tract, lot, or parcel of real property.

I have attempted to research the history of property assessment in Ohio and it is a wildly complex story.  Before WWII, property tax was pretty much the only tax for both local and state government.  After the 1940s, state property taxes were eliminated and replaced with income and sales taxes.  Similarly, Ohio first permitted municipal earnings taxes in the late 1940s in exchange for a reduction in local property taxes. 

 

But it's not possible to compare prewar and postwar mileage rates.  For example, Ohio capped municipal mileage rates at 10 mills before WWII.  Now Cincinnati residents pay upwards of 100 mills for all property taxes (city, county, schools, special items like the zoo and MRDD) but their overall property tax as a percentage of its value is similar or much lower because of the crazy 2/3 "reduction".  So after the auditor assesses a property at, say, $100,000, the taxable amount is only $30,000, or something like that.  It's bizarre. 

For a forum of persons who are interested in real property, as a group you seem to be incredibly un-curious about the actual process.

 

 

 

Awesome! We all got insulted!

I am incredibly curious about how the process works. That's why I'm asking questions about how they came up with these valuations. When some condos in the neighborhood have doubled in value over the past 5 years, why is the auditor only "valuing" other condos in the neighborhood at +5% instead of +100% for tax purposes? Is there some cap to the amount that they can raise the value?

For a forum of persons who are interested in real property, as a group you seem to be incredibly un-curious about the actual process.

Awesome! We all got insulted!

Not only that, but his trivial copy/paste exercise added absolutely zero to the thread, except to force me to read a bunch of text in real-estate lawyer jargon that ended up saying nothing about how property values are determined by the auditor.

For those of you asking incredulous questions about fair market value, why anyone would care if they were assessed too little, etc -- this is about a transparent process that is very important to the funding of cities and school systems. I think it should be done accurately and with demonstrable standards. If it's too low sometimes, why wouldn't it be too high at others?

 

At least, Dusty should be able to do as well as, say, Zillow.

Maybe Aftab can take over the auditors office next.

Here is the Auditor's explanation - I think I saw Dusty post this on Facebook or some place, too:

 

http://www.hamiltoncountyauditor.org/pdf/news_New_Property_Values_On_The_Way.pdf

 

We are required to set values to our opinion of the current market value of each property.  The number is arrived at by checking sales of comparable properties in each area over the past three years and physically viewing each property every six years.

 

If your property has changed hands during the past two or three years, a valid, arms length sale sets

your value.  The price agreed by the buyer and seller is the best indicator of current market value.

 

2014 was a comparable sales revision, and 2017 was the physical assessment revision. Maybe condos are especially tricky because they can't physically enter them, so there's not much to go by from the street? And perhaps the physical assessment does not factor in comparable sales, so you have to wait for 2020 for an adjustment based on that?

 

Also, if your value is too high or too low, you can go before the Board of Appeals with your evidence and get the value adjusted. This was all also explained in the letter sent to me a month or so ago. If you ask them to raise it they might give you a funny look, but I can't imagine that'd argue much, so long as you've got some comparable sales in hand as evidence.

Right. Again, I'm not going to go before the Board of Adjustments and say "raise my value". It doesn't make any sense to do that, because the extra couple hundred dollars I would pay aren't really going to do much for the library, schools, etc. My concern here is that dozens or hundreds of properties in the urban core are being significantly undervalued, resulting in the various orgs that are funded through levies getting significantly less revenue that they should be. I know some people in this thread are puzzled and thinking "why are these guys asking to pay higher taxes?", but the bottom line is, Hamilton County voters have gone to the polls and agreed to fund nearly a dozen organizations by taxing themselves at a certain millage based on their property valuation. Therefore it is in everyone's best interest that properties are valued the appropriate levels. The blog Cincyopolis had a great series a few years ago where the author dug into various properties that had gone in front of the Board of Revisions and asked for lower rates. Rich owners of large downtown buildings were able to get their tax bills lowered by tens of thousands of dollars (or more!) by claiming that their properties were worth far less than the county's appraised value.

Re-reading the Auditor's letter, he makes the following claim:

 

The reappraisal is not a way to raise your taxes. It is ordered by the state to assure equity in property taxation. Once the reappraisal is completed and approved by the State Tax Commissioner, the millages of most voted levies are reset so that taxing entities receive no more than the voters approved.

 

I wasn't aware that most of the levies worked this way. So, in that case, it makes even less sense for me to go to the county and tell them to raise my valuation. Because the extra tax that I would pay would just result in the tax rate for everyone else being lowered. But this is even more of a reason why people should want their neighbor's properties to be valued correctly... or, to put it another way, people in Kennedy Heights or Westwood should want OTR's property values to be set accurately. Because if OTR is paying more, it means they're paying less.

Not only that, but his trivial copy/paste exercise added absolutely zero to the thread, except to force me to read a bunch of text in real-estate lawyer jargon that ended up saying nothing about how property values are determined by the auditor.

 

Nothing except the only actual answer to the question of how sales of properties relate to Auditors' valuations. /s

 

Taestell, you might take note that this also answers your question, in part, in that a recent sale of the subject property determines its value but not that of a different property. As to that it is only a possible comparable. Maybe one of 20.

 

But, Uber, i did not expect you to understand that.

 

And, you may be mystified or maybe shocked to hear that the Auditor uses actual "appraisers." Those are people who are conversant in the process of appraisal and are employed by the County for that purpose.

 

Can you believe that?

 

But, you can use Zillow's  algorithm if that is more "transparent for you.

Yeah it's a little complicated but I think it works like:

 

Everyone pays the same percentage share based on the value so if the value is arbitrarily 10 Billion Dollars:

 

$10,000,000,000.00 up from $9,000,000,000.00

 

Values in OTR rose the extra $1,000,000,000.00

 

No one else's values rose

 

The mill rate drops to reflect the targeted nominal amount wanted, but since the value in OTR rose so much and everyone else stayed the same, everyone else pays less and OTR pays more

I am incredibly curious about how the process works. That's why I'm asking questions about how they came up with these valuations. When some condos in the neighborhood have doubled in value over the past 5 years, why is the auditor only "valuing" other condos in the neighborhood at +5% instead of +100% for tax purposes? Is there some cap to the amount that they can raise the value?

 

Wilson:

 

In 1970 Ryland Homes builds three identical 1100 square foot houses on Appleblossom Lane in Bridgetown. They are purchased by Curly, Larry and Moe. Each of the houses have identical improvements over the next 40 years, an added bath on the first floor, enclosure of the rear porch, finished basement with a fourth bedroom and a game room.

 

Today, Larry is still sitting on the living room couch with a Hudy in a bottle. Moe was a union shop steward at Kenner Corp. and got a permit for everything he has done. With the help of a mortgage broker, in 2010 Shaniqua purchased Curly’s widow’s house for about 30% more than it was actually worth - but with no money down.

 

Today, all of the houses are still identical except that Larry and Moe each have cornhole sets in the back yard and Shaniqua’s house can barely be seen from the street because she does not own a lawn mower.

 

Moe’s house is appraised for $175,000 in part because of increases the Auditor has made over the years including the improvements documented in the appraisers’ files from the permits he took out. Larry’s house is still listed in the Auditor’s records as a 3 bedroom with an unfinished basement and one full bath and the value has only been increased or decreased every three years based on overall market values in the immediate area. It is currently valued at 129,000.  Shaniqua’s house has been valued at $229,000 the price she (paid) for it in 2010.

 

Taestell: Oh, I think I get it.

Jake: Capitalists have broken into the County Admin Building and are holding Dusty hostage.

Crites: He can’t talk to us like that!

Uber: I hate math. It makes my head feel all fuzzy inside.

Can we just ban this sod already?

 

Wilson:

 

In 1970 Ryland Homes builds three identical 1100 square foot houses on Appleblossom Lane in Bridgetown. They are purchased by Curly, Larry and Moe. Each of the houses have identical improvements over the next 40 years, an added bath on the first floor, enclosure of the rear porch, finished basement with a fourth bedroom and a game room.

 

Today, Larry is still sitting on the living room couch with a Hudy in a bottle. Moe was a union shop steward at Kenner Corp. and got a permit for everything he has done. With the help of a mortgage broker, in 2010 Shaniqua purchased Curly’s widow’s house for about 30% more than it was actually worth - but with no money down.

 

Today, all of the houses are still identical except that Larry and Moe each have cornhole sets in the back yard and Shaniqua’s house can barely be seen from the street because she does not own a lawn mower.

 

Moe’s house is appraised for $175,000 in part because of increases the Auditor has made over the years including the improvements documented in the appraisers’ files from the permits he took out. Larry’s house is still listed in the Auditor’s records as a 3 bedroom with an unfinished basement and one full bath and the value has only been increased or decreased every three years based on overall market values in the immediate area. It is currently valued at 129,000.  Shaniqua’s house has been valued at $229,000 the price she (paid) for it in 2010.

 

The thing is that's not how it works.  I've posted an actual example of how I purchased a home three years ago and it was appraised $110K less than my purchase price and $200K less than a similar unit that had sold recently.  You clearly only have a superficial understanding of the process which makes your personal attacks on other OU members really bizarre.

 

Wilson:

 

In 1970 Ryland Homes builds three identical 1100 square foot houses on Appleblossom Lane in Bridgetown. They are purchased by Curly, Larry and Moe. Each of the houses have identical improvements over the next 40 years, an added bath on the first floor, enclosure of the rear porch, finished basement with a fourth bedroom and a game room.

 

Today, Larry is still sitting on the living room couch with a Hudy in a bottle. Moe was a union shop steward at Kenner Corp. and got a permit for everything he has done. With the help of a mortgage broker, in 2010 Shaniqua purchased Curly’s widow’s house for about 30% more than it was actually worth - but with no money down.

 

Today, all of the houses are still identical except that Larry and Moe each have cornhole sets in the back yard and Shaniqua’s house can barely be seen from the street because she does not own a lawn mower.

 

Moe’s house is appraised for $175,000 in part because of increases the Auditor has made over the years including the improvements documented in the appraisers’ files from the permits he took out. Larry’s house is still listed in the Auditor’s records as a 3 bedroom with an unfinished basement and one full bath and the value has only been increased or decreased every three years based on overall market values in the immediate area. It is currently valued at 129,000.  Shaniqua’s house has been valued at $229,000 the price she (paid) for it in 2010.

 

Taestell: Oh, I think I get it.

Jake: Capitalists have broken into the County Admin Building and are holding Dusty hostage.

Crites: He can’t talk to us like that!

Uber: I hate math. It makes my head feel all fuzzy inside.

 

The thing is that's not how it works.  I've posted an actual example of how I purchased a home three years ago and it was appraised $110K less than my purchase price and $200K less than a similar unit that had sold recently.  You clearly only have a superficial understanding of the process which makes your personal attacks on other OU members really bizarre.

 

Your personal experience is not helpful. It works exactly as described above. And, if you are referring to 1126 Race, you purchased it for $355,000 and it is currently valued at $355,000. It has always been appraised at $355,000 since the day you bought it because that was the recent purchase price.  Your taxes are not applied to the full amount because of tax loophole financing the developer obtained. That has uttterly nothing to do with the appraisal. Its called TIF financing.

 

Please do not embarrass yourself again.

^^ In 2014, the auditor adjusted property values based on recent sales, only. In 2017, the auditor did a physical assessment. If they took your 2014 assessed value and are proposing to drop that by $110,000, they probably made a mistake unless there's some sort of significant structural damage visible from the street. 

 

Construction/improvements result in an immediate update to your assessed value. If you pull a permit and list $10,000 as the total cost of the work, the auditor adjusts your property by exactly that amount upon closeout of the permit.

 

The 2017 adjusted values aren't visible yet on the auditor's site unless I'm missing them somewhere. This process repeats every 6 years, so in 2020, they will update based on recent sales and in 2023 they will physically appraise each property.

I am incredibly curious about how the process works. That's why I'm asking questions about how they came up with these valuations. When some condos in the neighborhood have doubled in value over the past 5 years, why is the auditor only "valuing" other condos in the neighborhood at +5% instead of +100% for tax purposes? Is there some cap to the amount that they can raise the value?

 

Wilson:

 

In 1970 Ryland Homes builds three identical 1100 square foot houses on Appleblossom Lane in Bridgetown. They are purchased by Curly, Larry and Moe. Each of the houses have identical improvements over the next 40 years, an added bath on the first floor, enclosure of the rear porch, finished basement with a fourth bedroom and a game room.

 

Today, Larry is still sitting on the living room couch with a Hudy in a bottle. Moe was a union shop steward at Kenner Corp. and got a permit for everything he has done. With the help of a mortgage broker, in 2010 Shaniqua purchased Curly’s widow’s house for about 30% more than it was actually worth - but with no money down.

 

Today, all of the houses are still identical except that Larry and Moe each have cornhole sets in the back yard and Shaniqua’s house can barely be seen from the street because she does not own a lawn mower.

 

Moe’s house is appraised for $175,000 in part because of increases the Auditor has made over the years including the improvements documented in the appraisers’ files from the permits he took out. Larry’s house is still listed in the Auditor’s records as a 3 bedroom with an unfinished basement and one full bath and the value has only been increased or decreased every three years based on overall market values in the immediate area. It is currently valued at 129,000.  Shaniqua’s house has been valued at $229,000 the price she (paid) for it in 2010.

 

Taestell: Oh, I think I get it.

Jake: Capitalists have broken into the County Admin Building and are holding Dusty hostage.

Crites: He can’t talk to us like that!

Uber: I hate math. It makes my head feel all fuzzy inside.

 

 

Wilson:

 

In 1970 Ryland Homes builds three identical 1100 square foot houses on Appleblossom Lane in Bridgetown. They are purchased by Curly, Larry and Moe. Each of the houses have identical improvements over the next 40 years, an added bath on the first floor, enclosure of the rear porch, finished basement with a fourth bedroom and a game room.

 

Today, Larry is still sitting on the living room couch with a Hudy in a bottle. Moe was a union shop steward at Kenner Corp. and got a permit for everything he has done. With the help of a mortgage broker, in 2010 Shaniqua purchased Curly’s widow’s house for about 30% more than it was actually worth - but with no money down.

 

Today, all of the houses are still identical except that Larry and Moe each have cornhole sets in the back yard and Shaniqua’s house can barely be seen from the street because she does not own a lawn mower.

 

Moe’s house is appraised for $175,000 in part because of increases the Auditor has made over the years including the improvements documented in the appraisers’ files from the permits he took out. Larry’s house is still listed in the Auditor’s records as a 3 bedroom with an unfinished basement and one full bath and the value has only been increased or decreased every three years based on overall market values in the immediate area. It is currently valued at 129,000.  Shaniqua’s house has been valued at $229,000 the price she (paid) for it in 2010.

 

The thing is that's not how it works.  I've posted an actual example of how I purchased a home three years ago and it was appraised $110K less than my purchase price and $200K less than a similar unit that had sold recently.  You clearly only have a superficial understanding of the process which makes your personal attacks on other OU members really bizarre.

 

Your personal experience is not helpful. It works exactly as described above. And, if you are referring to 1126 Race, you purchased it for $355,000 and it is currently valued at $355,000. It has always been appraised at $355,000 since the day you bought it because that was the recent purchase price.  Your taxes are not applied to the full amount because of tax loophole financing the developer obtained. That has uttterly nothing to do with the appraisal. Its called TIF financing.

 

Please do not embarrass yourself again.

 

There is no need to personally call out people on this forum because they espouse different viewpoints than your own. There is plenty of room for rational and intellectual discussion without all the posturing. Chill out.

 

Thanks!

 

Wilson:

 

In 1970 Ryland Homes builds three identical 1100 square foot houses on Appleblossom Lane in Bridgetown. They are purchased by Curly, Larry and Moe. Each of the houses have identical improvements over the next 40 years, an added bath on the first floor, enclosure of the rear porch, finished basement with a fourth bedroom and a game room.

 

Today, Larry is still sitting on the living room couch with a Hudy in a bottle. Moe was a union shop steward at Kenner Corp. and got a permit for everything he has done. With the help of a mortgage broker, in 2010 Shaniqua purchased Curly’s widow’s house for about 30% more than it was actually worth - but with no money down.

 

Today, all of the houses are still identical except that Larry and Moe each have cornhole sets in the back yard and Shaniqua’s house can barely be seen from the street because she does not own a lawn mower.

 

Moe’s house is appraised for $175,000 in part because of increases the Auditor has made over the years including the improvements documented in the appraisers’ files from the permits he took out. Larry’s house is still listed in the Auditor’s records as a 3 bedroom with an unfinished basement and one full bath and the value has only been increased or decreased every three years based on overall market values in the immediate area. It is currently valued at 129,000.  Shaniqua’s house has been valued at $229,000 the price she (paid) for it in 2010.

 

Taestell: Oh, I think I get it.

Jake: Capitalists have broken into the County Admin Building and are holding Dusty hostage.

Crites: He can’t talk to us like that!

Uber: I hate math. It makes my head feel all fuzzy inside.

 

The thing is that's not how it works.  I've posted an actual example of how I purchased a home three years ago and it was appraised $110K less than my purchase price and $200K less than a similar unit that had sold recently.  You clearly only have a superficial understanding of the process which makes your personal attacks on other OU members really bizarre.

 

Your personal experience is not helpful. It works exactly as described above. And, if you are referring to 1126 Race, you purchased it for $355,000 and it is currently valued at $355,000. It has always been appraised at $355,000 since the day you bought it because that was the recent purchase price.  Your taxes are not applied to the full amount because of tax loophole financing the developer obtained. That has uttterly nothing to do with the appraisal. Its called TIF financing.

 

Please do not embarrass yourself again.

 

The reappraisals are not published yet.  I got a letter in the mail that required me to respond to the tentative change in valuation by the Auditor.  You clearly have no idea what's going on.  If you don't understand the process that's going on right now please do not post pretending you do and attacking people in the process.

 

The reappraisals are not published yet.  I got a letter in the mail that required me to respond to the tentative change in valuation by the Auditor.  You clearly have no idea what's going on.  If you don't understand the process that's going on right now please do not post pretending you do and attacking people in the process.

 

I understand exactly what is going on which has nothing to do with your prior mistaken claim that your property was valued in the past lower than its purchase price. It wasn't.

 

What is going on now is an informal process advising owners that the upcoming reappraisal may change their property values as indicated in the letter from the Auditor, but "requiring" no one to do anything. There is an invitation to disagree with the possible change in value. I have already responded to a dozen of these invitations.

 

Once the re-appraisal is actually made, you will have until March 31, 2018 to file your Petition with the BOR.

 

Again, I find it incredible that this simple process is so muddled on a forum apparently devoted to real property.

 

 

Sounds like it's Shaniqua's fault

Again, I find it incredible that this simple process is so muddled on a forum apparently devoted to real property.

 

This is not a forum about real estate. This is a forum about cities and towns in Ohio. There is a wide variety of interests on this forum. Some people here are very knowledgable about real estate and development; others aren't. There is no need to attack people who are asking simple questions about how the revaluation process works.

I would like to add that the informal process being conducted right now is a mixed blessing. In general, the Auditor does not physically enter premises under appraisal. Nor does the Auditor have access to financial information concerning the operations of the real property. When the value is predicated on a recent sale, it is that sale that will be determinative of the value. That is what 5713.03 says. However, post sale improvements can vary that rule. And, anything that calls into question the arm's length nature of the sale is risky.

 

Persons responding to the informal request should think carefully about what information they provide and how it might affect their own property taxes.

 

Objections to valuation cannot be predicated upon a comparison of appraisals of like properties which is what much of the discussion above contains. It will not go anywhere to say, "Gee my house is just like Bill's house and his is appraised at half the value of mine" unless the reason is due to a recent sale. And, if an objection to a valuation is predicated on recent sales of property the sales must occur before the assessment date but not years before. They then become "comparable sales" which is one of three factors the BOR uses to determine correctness of the appraisal. At a BOR hearing, the School Board is typically represented by counsel and puts on a case of its own. It is not common but sometimes at these hearings can result in an increase in vlaue based on the School Board's presentation. They assign very skilled and experienced lawyers to these cases.

 

I discontinued doing these hearings for clients last year, but I would urge anyone thinking about a BOR Petition to get someone competent to present their case. Unless it is based on a recent sale of the subject property, a competent appraiser will likely be needed.

 

 

^ I have done dozens of these appeals in Hamilton County as well as the surrounding counties. Generally, Hamilton county will grant the residential property owner some relief in the vast majority of cases. This does not mean the owner "wins", just the county often backs off their initial assessment some.

 

In general I have found Hamilton County reasonable to deal with. The worst county in the area to deal with is Montgomery County as the auditor there is very aggressive in his valuations

For the (N-1) of us who remain interested in actually discussing / learning about the process the auditor uses...

 

Construction/improvements result in an immediate update to your assessed value. If you pull a permit and list $10,000 as the total cost of the work, the auditor adjusts your property by exactly that amount upon closeout of the permit.

 

Yeah that is really interesting. Above I had stated my example with a 4-story, 6 apartment + storefront rehab that was valued by the 2017 assessors at less than $200K. And this is in OTR where $800K+ townhomes are going up, so I'm like 'OK, but... that doesn't make any sense.' I can't even remember what I put down for a cost estimate on the original permit but ... I've got a sneaky suspicion that's exactly where the auditors valuation came from.

 

When you fill out the building permit I wonder how many folks are thinking that the rough cost estimate is going to be used by the auditor? (As opposed to thinking that you're going to be paying a permit fee that is proportional to the cost estimate  :wink:.)

 

If it were me, I'd definitely say that Dusty's reliance on permit estimates is a bad idea, except only to trigger the application of a real valuation. What's interesting is that the folks doing the valuation spent some time looking around the building and even called me up to ask questions about it. But in the end they ended up just using the permit cost estimate!

The Auditor is using a third party firm that supposedly is good at doing valuations.  From speaking with a lot of neighbors it just doesn't seem that they're good at doing valuations in an urban environment (or at all really).

It is pretty common practice out in the suburbs that a permit states a small nominal amount which is nothing like what will eventually be paid. Then the contractor issues a change order for the balance. The inspection by the City or County does not extend to financial matters between the contractor and the owner. This practice has numerous risks for both the contractor and the owner. Still it happens frequently.

 

This forum should also know that the practice of selling a limited liability company membership interest instead of the real estate it owns has also taken hold in Hamilton County. I have been doing this since 1984 but it is now often seen.

 

The Auditor gets the "recent sales price" from a tax form called the Ohio Conveyance Fee. D-100 I think. It imposes a tax of 3.5 mills on the Seller and a copy goes to the Auditor.

 

Since the sale of a limited liability interest is not a real property transfer, there is no D100 hence no info for the Auditor. Unlike the permit scam above, the sale off an LLC interest is purely legal if not somewhat sharp practice. But, when a property appraised at $400k is sold for $2mm the savings will be $100,000 per year or so. Hence the technique.

 

 

 

 

For the (N-1) of us who remain interested in actually discussing / learning about the process the auditor uses...

 

Construction/improvements result in an immediate update to your assessed value. If you pull a permit and list $10,000 as the total cost of the work, the auditor adjusts your property by exactly that amount upon closeout of the permit.

 

Yeah that is really interesting. Above I had stated my example with a 4-story, 6 apartment + storefront rehab that was valued by the 2017 assessors at less than $200K. And this is in OTR where $800K+ townhomes are going up, so I'm like 'OK, but... that doesn't make any sense.' I can't even remember what I put down for a cost estimate on the original permit but ... I've got a sneaky suspicion that's exactly where the auditors valuation came from.

 

When you fill out the building permit I wonder how many folks are thinking that the rough cost estimate is going to be used by the auditor? (As opposed to thinking that you're going to be paying a permit fee that is proportional to the cost estimate  :wink:.)

 

If it were me, I'd definitely say that Dusty's reliance on permit estimates is a bad idea, except only to trigger the application of a real valuation. What's interesting is that the folks doing the valuation spent some time looking around the building and even called me up to ask questions about it. But in the end they ended up just using the permit cost estimate!

 

There's an official "Building Valuation Data" table prescribed by the ICC that is meant to be a way to normalize pricing and prevent people from putting low-ball estimates on permit applications to avoid paying high permit fees (and, in a place like Hamilton County, ultimately end up dodging property taxes). It's not used in Cincinnati, though. In fact, I've applied for permits in probably 50+ jurisdictions and have only come across one that actually uses it. The owner I was working for was pissed because the table had a cost per square foot that was about double what the contractor had bid, so it doubled the permit fee they had budgeted for. And this was a ~$20 million building, so we're talking six figures of additional permit cost.

I have purchased three properties in Hamilton County since the last valuation by the auditor.  I have now received letters for all three and none of them were adjusted to the sale price.  1400 Sycamore swears up and down that properties are automatically adjusted to a recent sales price but I have three examples of that not happening. 

 

Dusty appraised my primary residence at $3,840 less than what I bought it for in 2015 (purchased for $125,000 in 2015, appraised in 2017 for $121,160).  I live one block from Ram23, who states that his valuation went up by 40%.  It's pretty obvious that the reappraisal process has been sloppily carried out. 

If you appeal they will basically agree with re-appraising to the sale price. 

If you appeal they will basically agree with re-appraising to the sale price. 

 

I'm not complaining.  But the tax I'm underpaying on the house is only $50-100 per year.  Big deal. 

If you appeal they will basically agree with re-appraising to the sale price. 

 

I'm not complaining.  But the tax I'm underpaying on the house is only $50-100 per year.  Big deal. 

 

Jake they never do it on their own. Whenever I buy something, I always appeal the taxes because the county only adjusts them on the 3 years re-appraisal period.

^Our resident expert asserted that they do and shouted down everyone who suggested otherwise. 

If you appeal they will basically agree with re-appraising to the sale price. 

 

I'm not complaining.  But the tax I'm underpaying on the house is only $50-100 per year.  Big deal. 

 

Jake they never do it on their own. Whenever I buy something, I always appeal the taxes because the county only adjusts them on the 3 years re-appraisal period.

 

I've purchased and sold a few properties since 2009 in Hamco.  Actually, about 20. It's seems if the arms length purchase was lower than the current county valuation, they make me file the formal complaint. If the sale is higher than current county valuation, they have always raised it to the new value, except in one circumstance. 

 

The letter I just received for my own home has the valuation rising just shy of 100k on a current 250k valuation. That's excessive. I've talked to all my neighbors whose property abuts mine, which is 7 unique parcel owners.  Every one of them have a lower proposed value. The average in just over 20k less.  For me, that's a total swing of 110k vs my neighbors.

Something stinks.

^Our resident expert asserted that they do and shouted down everyone who suggested otherwise. 

^ who is your resident expert?

There's a certain heel user who thinks he's cutting a promo for The Four Horsemen. And he sure as hell isn't Ric Flair.