Crain's Cleveland: Townhomes are gaining steam in suburban settings

 

"With homebuilding booming during a shortage of existing homes for sale and low interest rates, production of townhomes is ramping up in Northeast Ohio.

 

New projects are going in as infill in land-shy suburbs such as Rocky River as well as vast tracts in more far-flung places, from Aurora to Painesville Township."

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/real-estate/townhomes-are-gaining-steam-suburban-settings

On 6/10/2021 at 8:58 AM, NorthShore647 said:

Avon Lake says power plant will be closed, torn down, with plans to redevelop lakefront property

Cliff Pinckard - Cleveland.com - June 9, 2021

 

The question is can anything really be developed on the power plant land other than greenspace? I imagine the soil underneath would be contaminated.

That being said it would be interesting if the original generator building could at least be saved, rehabbed and repurposed.

Edited June 13, 20214 yr by RoabeArt

Additionally, I wonder if it would be possible to convert the tallest of the smokestacks into an observation tower.  I always wanted to go up to the top of it!

If we add these 5 cranes up it sort of equals 1 tower crane right? Right?

 

I didn't think there was room for another building in Independence.  

I didn't think CBIZ wanted to wait for a building to be constructed. I was told they had to be out by the end of this year. So when someone told me this morning they're moving to Rockside Woods North, I didn't see any existing buildings there with enough space for them.

seems they never planned on being downtown....shocked I tell ya

As someone who works for a similar firm. I think it’s hilarious this is their move to lure promising talent and will only help my employer and others located in the city. 

CBIZ isn't the type of company to want to locate in a diverse/open minded setting if you know what I mean.

 

3 hours ago, WindyBuckeye said:

As someone who works for a similar firm. I think it’s hilarious this is their move to lure promising talent and will only help my employer and others located in the city. 

Although I totally understand the bigger picture, in attracting the younger workers and I want these big employers to be Downtown, I think some folk on here often overlook the benefits of suburban working. Less commuting and free parking. Not to be sniffed at. Signed a suburban office worker.

 

Maybe when I was in my early 20s the Downtown working would have appealed to me more given proximity to bars and restaurants, but in my early 30s now with a partner and a young family on the way, my party days are behind me and I'm quite happy working out here, as are most of my colleagues. And by the way, if we moved Downtown I would not object and would go with the flow despite my own personal circumstances. 

 

Horses for courses. 

 

 

29 minutes ago, snakebite said:

Although I totally understand the bigger picture, in attracting the younger workers and I want these big employers to be Downtown, I think some folk on here often overlook the benefits of suburban working. Less commuting and free parking. Not to be sniffed at. Signed a suburban office worker.

 

 

That clearly works for you, but while it is true that parking is free to the worker in most suburban areas, I don't think the "less commuting" is necessarily true.

 

Thanks to our highway system we have workers in our downtown office from Avon Lake to Mentor to Solon to Chagrin Falls to north Akron to Cleveland Heights to Lakewood to downtown -- all over northeast Ohio.  Yet almost everyone commutes 20-40 minutes.  The exceptions live downtown and walk about 15 minutes. 

 

We certainly have pockets of heavy traffic that can increase commute times at certain times of day -- on 271 near Progressive, near the innerbelt downtown, Rockside, Royalton Rd. exit off 71 -- but we don't really have that much traffic compared to other major US cities. 

 

As a result, I don't think there is that much of a travel advantage to the suburbs unless it happens to be a job in the same suburb where you live.  We could all move to shorten our commutes, but I think people generally are reluctant to do so.  I would guess that most people commute about the same time on average, with the landlocked-from-highways Shaker Heights residents traveling slower than the Avon resident speeding to work on 90, but both are probably still working within a 45 minute-or-less commute. 

 

I'd be interested in hearing the results of a survey of your fellow suburban office workers.  Just ask "what time do you leave for work?" and what time they would be ready for a morning meeting. I'd bet that from the time they walk out the door at home to the time they clock in probably averages the same 20-40 minutes.

 

 

3 hours ago, snakebite said:

Although I totally understand the bigger picture, in attracting the younger workers and I want these big employers to be Downtown, I think some folk on here often overlook the benefits of suburban working. Less commuting and free parking. Not to be sniffed at. Signed a suburban office worker.

 

Maybe when I was in my early 20s the Downtown working would have appealed to me more given proximity to bars and restaurants, but in my early 30s now with a partner and a young family on the way, my party days are behind me and I'm quite happy working out here, as are most of my colleagues. And by the way, if we moved Downtown I would not object and would go with the flow despite my own personal circumstances. 

 

Horses for courses. 

 

 

Suburban offices hardly means less commuting. It makes commuting by car an absolute necessity and don't get me started on the argument "less traffic in the suburbs" because I see what 480 and its interchanges become during rush hour. A sizeable amount of workers in this region still have to travel across town from their suburban home to their office in a different suburb, usually on a different side of town.

I reverse commute out to the suburbs, as such, I'd clearly love it if my office moved downtown. That said, I'm fairly confident 90% of the office would be opposed to that, and 80% of them would be very opposed. The appeal of working downtown is far from universal. 

 

I'd also agree that On Average working in the suburbs probably doesn't result in shorter commutes. (Particularly in a city like Cleveland where traffic really isn't that bad). It seems like regardless of which side of town the office is on, about half of the employees live on the other one. 

52 minutes ago, Ethan said:

I reverse commute out to the suburbs, as such, I'd clearly love it if my office moved downtown. That said, I'm fairly confident 90% of the office would be opposed to that, and 80% of them would be very opposed. The appeal of working downtown is far from universal. 

 

I'd also agree that On Average working in the suburbs probably doesn't result in shorter commutes. (Particularly in a city like Cleveland where traffic really isn't that bad). It seems like regardless of which side of town the office is on, about half of the employees live on the other one. 

Unfortunately, the way that RTA is currently structured, the only way one can reliably reverse commute is by driving.  They don't offer the frequency of service or the speed of service to make it a desirable option.  Even if somebody can use the rapid transit lines, unless the ultimate destination is practically next door to the stop, one has to wait for another connection to finish the commute.  There are some major employers that have little or no bus service at all.  The Next Gen changes that RTA recently implemented did increase the frequency of some major bus routes, but those routes are hampered by stop-and-go traffic on surface streets.   As it is, a downtown to an outlying suburb trip via a bus in either direction for either the morning or evening rush hour can easily take an hour one-way.  Double that time if it it is from the far side of the county to the other.  

 

At least the traffic is such that the amount of time that it takes by car to do these types of commutes aren't too bad, especially compared to other cities. 

I once lived on the far south side of San Jose, CA and worked in a neighboring town to the north.   One day I was surprised to see an express bus arrive nearby my job that I swore had left from nearby my apartment at the same time I drove by.  So,  I began to ride this bus that stayed solely on surface streets and traveled directly north through the center of downtown San Jose.   I was amazed to discover that the trip actually took the same amount of time or, maybe, even a few minutes less than driving to work in a car on the highway.   The major job centers in Santa Clara county are all concentrated outside of downtown San Jose and the bus could fly through the surprisingly open streets downtown. 

 

I discovered that when I needed to drive my car to work, I followed the bus route and it was a faster and less stressful trip.   LOL.   

 

 

Edited June 22, 20213 yr by DO_Summers

This --

11 hours ago, DO_Summers said:

I once lived on the far south side of San Jose, CA and worked in a neighboring town to the north.   One day I was surprised to see an express bus arrive nearby my job that I swore had left from nearby my apartment at the same time I drove by.  So,  I began to ride this bus that stayed solely on surface streets and traveled directly north through the center of downtown San Jose.   I was amazed to discover that the trip actually took the same amount of time or, maybe, even a few minutes less than driving to work in a car on the highway.   The major job centers in Santa Clara county are all concentrated outside of downtown San Jose and the bus could fly through the surprisingly open streets downtown.

 

When your job centers are spread out, transit cannot efficiently move people to where they want to go, so people must drive, and more cars on the road means more traffic impeding the buses, leading to this

12 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Unfortunately, the way that RTA is currently structured, the only way one can reliably reverse commute is by driving.  They don't offer the frequency of service or the speed of service to make it a desirable option.  Even if somebody can use the rapid transit lines, unless the ultimate destination is practically next door to the stop, one has to wait for another connection to finish the commute.  There are some major employers that have little or no bus service at all.  The Next Gen changes that RTA recently implemented did increase the frequency of some major bus routes, but those routes are hampered by stop-and-go traffic on surface streets.   As it is, a downtown to an outlying suburb trip via a bus in either direction for either the morning or evening rush hour can easily take an hour one-way.  Double that time if it it is from the far side of the county to the other. 

 

Suburban sprawl is not horrible because urban dwellers don't understand the appeal of a different lifestyle, it's horrible because of its wasteful mis-use of energy and resources.  It will be unsustainable in the long run.

Getting back to suburban development...

 

https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/oh-lake/avery-dennison-announces-plans-to-expand-painesville-facility

 

I'm not sure if this is the right thread... but I spent my weekend in and around Philadelphia and its adjacent suburbs. Almost all of them had walkable downtowns, and some of which were new(ish).. 

 

This made me think... do any suburbs currently have plans to encourage a centralized, pedestrian friendly CBD? I know we have Lakewood, Willoughby, Chagrin, and Rocky River all with walkable downtown's (and arguably Berea) - but I cannot think of a single initiative underway to fix some OBVIOUS problems with the lack of pedestrian-friendly CBDs in Greater Cleveland. 

 

I did a lot of digging on the plane ride, and couldn't find anything of note. The closest thing I saw was a tax incentive in Parma Heights on Pearl Rd to put parking behind buildings. 

7 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

I'm not sure if this is the right thread... but I spent my weekend in and around Philadelphia and its adjacent suburbs. Almost all of them had walkable downtowns, and some of which were new(ish).. 

 

This made me think... do any suburbs currently have plans to encourage a centralized, pedestrian friendly CBD? I know we have Lakewood, Willoughby, Chagrin, and Rocky River all with walkable downtown's (and arguably Berea) - but I cannot think of a single initiative underway to fix some OBVIOUS problems with the lack of pedestrian-friendly CBDs in Greater Cleveland. 

 

I did a lot of digging on the plane ride, and couldn't find anything of note. The closest thing I saw was a tax incentive in Parma Heights on Pearl Rd to put parking behind buildings. 

Depending on what you consider to be a suburb, you could include Hudson and Medina.

 

I might even include Shaker Heights with the Van Aken Development and Cleveland Heights which has multiple walkable nodes. 

Do lifestyle centers count?

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Do lifestyle centers count?

No - I wouldn't count it.

This is Lititz - a small exurb about an hour or so outside of Philly (closer to Lancaster). I was smitten. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1568758,-76.30506,3a,75y,306.25h,92.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5qpUn8V3FINTx6gD3ljh9g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

11 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

This is Lititz - a small exurb about an hour or so outside of Philly (closer to Lancaster). I was smitten. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1568758,-76.30506,3a,75y,306.25h,92.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5qpUn8V3FINTx6gD3ljh9g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Lititz is also the epicenter of worldwide concert touring.   Worlds largest sound company, staging company and accompanying rehearsal studios are based there, along with many ancillary businesses.  

My point being - what can the county or municipalities do to encourage walkable city centers? 

The one thing cities like Lakewood, Rocky River, Cleveland Heights and Berea have in common is that they were well established long before cars became the norm for travel. Most of Cleveland's suburbs sprang up in the 1950s and later when cars were king, and walkable business districts weren't considered so desirable by the people who wanted to live in those suburbs.

That being said, I've always thought Fairview Park would be a good spot for developing a walkable district on Lorain Road, particularly along the stretch between West 210th and 220th. There are already a few existing sidewalk-lining businesses, some even with apartments above, but unfortunately they're separated by parking lots and other auto-centric land uses. Nothing seems to be on the table for establishing any sort of improvement district.

Edited July 19, 20213 yr by RoabeArt
clarification

South Euclid has plans to turn Mayfield and Green back into a dense area. There was a master plan a couple years ago, and we just finished up with the zoning changes. It will still be slow going though, but everyone on the city's side has been taking it seriously - including a long battle with Burger King who wanted to build a new building with the drive thru along Mayfield. That has luckily been squashed. 

Edited July 19, 20213 yr by PoshSteve

Great news. I grew up in South Euclid and just drove through the mayfield and green intersection. What a mess of bad design and poor maintenance. A thoughtfully designed, modest makeover could do wonders. 

6 hours ago, YABO713 said:

This is Lititz - a small exurb about an hour or so outside of Philly (closer to Lancaster). I was smitten. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1568758,-76.30506,3a,75y,306.25h,92.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5qpUn8V3FINTx6gD3ljh9g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

This reminds me of a larger Mechanicsburg, PA where I spent some of my childhood.  Lancaster, PA is one of the best small-mid size cities I've seen.  Take a Google streetview tour around their downtown - it's beautiful and getting better. 

 

Unfortunately, PA just has so many more charming, intact, walkable, beautiful little towns than Ohio does.  A lot of this has to do with the fact that PA is an older state. 

 

Several of Cleveland's suburban little towns could use some zoning updates and more density.

3 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

South Euclid has plans to turn Mayfield and Green back into a dense area. There was a master plan a couple years ago, and we just finished up with the zoning changes. It will still be slow going though, but everyone on the city's side has been taking it seriously - including a long battle with Burger King who wanted to build a new building with the drive thru along Mayfield. That has luckily been squashed. 

Too bad they already built the set back Marc’s plaza.  How do you undo that damage in the midst of a fairly walkable area? 

Edited July 20, 20213 yr by willyboy

I would keep an eye on what happens when they tear down the old power plant along the lake shore in Avon Lake.  There's at least a chance that they could make something really special and unique to the region.  Then again, it's Avon Lake, so it could end up as generic as possible.

1 hour ago, willyboy said:

Too bad they already built the set back Marc’s plaza.  How do you undo that damage in the midst of a fairly walkable area? 

Ironically the old plaza that occupied that site was built closer to the street (albeit with a parking strip in front). The new plaza is such a step backward.

9 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

 

This reminds me of a larger Mechanicsburg, PA where I spent some of my childhood.  Lancaster, PA is one of the best small-mid size cities I've seen.  Take a Google streetview tour around their downtown - it's beautiful and getting better. 

 

Unfortunately, PA just has so many more charming, intact, walkable, beautiful little towns than Ohio does.  A lot of this has to do with the fact that PA is an older state. 

 

Several of Cleveland's suburban little towns could use some zoning updates and more density.

 

Right after Kasich killed 3C, I started looking into moving to Eastern cities with good train service, good urbanity and were affordable. Lancaster was one of the few cities I could find that met that criteria (along with parts of New Haven, Providence, Beacon, NY etc). But my elderly father's medical decline meant I needed stay near him.

 

@PoshSteve I'm interested to hear more about this especially when it starts to manifest itself more on the landscape. 

15 hours ago, YABO713 said:

My point being - what can the county or municipalities do to encourage walkable city centers? 

Here's a decent video from a good youtube channel about it.

 

Can you build main streets in the suburbs?

19 hours ago, KJP said:

Do lifestyle centers count?

No, they do not.

13 hours ago, willyboy said:

Too bad they already built the set back Marc’s plaza.  How do you undo that damage in the midst of a fairly walkable area? 

 

The construction of that shopping center is what finally galvanized the city into taking the area seriously and getting the zoning changed. The Burger King I mentioned was going to be in one of the out parcels in front of it, with the drive thru along Mayfield. Luckily that wont happen now. A new Starbucks is going to be going there now instead, with their patio and a walk up window facing Mayfield. 

22 hours ago, willyboy said:

Too bad they already built the set back Marc’s plaza.  How do you undo that damage in the midst of a fairly walkable area? 

 

9 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

 

The construction of that shopping center is what finally galvanized the city into taking the area seriously and getting the zoning changed. The Burger King I mentioned was going to be in one of the out parcels in front of it, with the drive thru along Mayfield. Luckily that wont happen now. A new Starbucks is going to be going there now instead, with their patio and a walk up window facing Mayfield. 

Why did it take the Marc's development to take the area seriously?  Weren't the plans enough to see what a weak design it was?  It isn't like a strip shopping center set back from the road with a large amount of parking between the stores and the main road was some sort of new concept never tried before.  What sort of confidence is supposed to be gained with that sort of statement?

 

Also, how is another attempt at redevelopment going to go over?  Oakwood Commons and luring Walmart from Severance Shopping Center was supposed to be some sort of saving grace.  Then there was the whole Cedar Center North project.  Though not in South Euclid, nearby University Square has basically been a failure.  How is another redevelopment going to be passed on?  How is the city going to be linked with this one beyond zoning changes and how will it impact the city's financial picture?  As it stands, the city's local income tax rate is 2.0% with ZERO credit for income taxes paid for a resident's workplace city.  Property taxes are high for a school district ranked in the bottom 10% of the state.  Be "unfortunate" enough to live in the small section of South Euclid attached to CH-UH Schools and the property tax becomes one of the highest, if not the highest in the state.   Every couple of years, the safety forces levy comes up for renewal with a significant increase.  It wasn't that long ago that garbage collection fees were being bantered around.  Will this project be another tax burden passed on to the residents?

To take it seriously: Did the wider community, (which isn't always paying attention to upcoming developments) freak out once the layout was implemented and begin expressing their displeasure with it?

If a governing body doesn't manage well, constituents do speak up.  - Sometimes that's all it takes. 

I would say things were taken for granted before. Cedar Center and Oakwood had already happened, and then this comes around and rips out some fairly pedestrian friendly areas and woke people up to what there was before and what a radical difference this type of development is from what was already there.  Without the zoning changes, it really couldn't legally be stopped. The developers were pushed to do the best product within the zoning at the time. Just because the city may want something developed a specific way, doesn't mean they always have the power to compel a private developer to do it. This is why the proposed Burger King was successfully pushed back. The city had the legal authority to do so. That is how things will be different now moving forward. The city now has the legal authority within the zoning code. You can check out the South Euclid thread for photos of the master plan for the area and some developer proposals that fit well with it.

I remember the building that used to be where the CVS is now at Mayfield and Green in South Euclid. It was substantial, with storefronts on the first floor and at least two floors above. It came up to the sidewalk and really gave that part of town a downtown feeling. I have always felt that South Euclid squandered its downtown and let it devolve into just another part of the Mayfield strip. I think Cedar Center North was handled pretty well, but Oakwood is inexcusable.

 

18 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

I would say things were taken for granted before. Cedar Center and Oakwood had already happened, and then this comes around and rips out some fairly pedestrian friendly areas and woke people up to what there was before and what a radical difference this type of development is from what was already there.  Without the zoning changes, it really couldn't legally be stopped. The developers were pushed to do the best product within the zoning at the time. Just because the city may want something developed a specific way, doesn't mean they always have the power to compel a private developer to do it. This is why the proposed Burger King was successfully pushed back. The city had the legal authority to do so. That is how things will be different now moving forward. The city now has the legal authority within the zoning code. You can check out the South Euclid thread for photos of the master plan for the area and some developer proposals that fit well with it.

Passing the blame on Cedar Center North.  One would think that the City of South Euclid would have a tremendous amount to say how that shopping center was re-developed as it was the city itself that purchased it March 2007.

Edited July 22, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

7 hours ago, Vincent_G said:

I remember the building that used to be where the CVS is now at Mayfield and Green in South Euclid. It was substantial, with storefronts on the first floor and at least two floors above. It came up to the sidewalk and really gave that part of town a downtown feeling. I have always felt that South Euclid squandered its downtown and let it devolve into just another part of the Mayfield strip. I think Cedar Center North was handled pretty well, but Oakwood is inexcusable.

 

The original Eat at Joe's Diner was in that building.  It was demolished on the late 90s.

9 minutes ago, freefourur said:

The original Eat at Joe's Diner was in that building.  It was demolished on the late 90s.

I recall the old time hardware store that was on Mayfield Road, just to the east of McDonalds.

7 hours ago, Vincent_G said:

I remember the building that used to be where the CVS is now at Mayfield and Green in South Euclid. It was substantial, with storefronts on the first floor and at least two floors above. It came up to the sidewalk and really gave that part of town a downtown feeling. I have always felt that South Euclid squandered its downtown and let it devolve into just another part of the Mayfield strip. I think Cedar Center North was handled pretty well, but Oakwood is inexcusable.

 

 

Yep my grandma lived over there, clear memories of riding by that building in my younger years. Between the new CVS and the new Marc's setback compared to the old, yeah, it's a shame they didn't redevelop with more of a focus on setbacks/walkability.

Edited July 22, 20213 yr by mu2010

On 7/21/2021 at 1:49 AM, ExPatClevGuy said:

To take it seriously: Did the wider community, (which isn't always paying attention to upcoming developments) freak out once the layout was implemented and begin expressing their displeasure with it?

If a governing body doesn't manage well, constituents do speak up.  - Sometimes that's all it takes. 

The residents of South Euclid took notice when due to the debt incurred with Cedar Center North, the city no longer had funds available in the General Fund to allocate to the safety forces.  To make up for the gap, new levies (with each renewal bigger than ones being replaced) started being forced upon residents using the traditional "scare tactics" of big cuts to safety forces impacting the well being of residents if they weren't passed.  The Oakwood Commons development with the coming of Walmart added to the strain on the safety forces.

 

It is these sort of things that cause people to take notice. It is especially true when they don't have a say in voting on big-dollar projects such as that, but get stuck with the bill when money is needed for necessary services.

Edited July 22, 20213 yr by LifeLongClevelander

On 7/19/2021 at 6:29 PM, RoabeArt said:

The one thing cities like Lakewood, Rocky River, Cleveland Heights and Berea have in common is that they were well established long before cars became the norm for travel. Most of Cleveland's suburbs sprang up in the 1950s and later when cars were king, and walkable business districts weren't considered so desirable by the people who wanted to live in those suburbs.

 

 

The nice thing about several of Columbus' large suburbs is that they were originally created as towns of their own, completely separate from Columbus. They were later swallowed by suburbia as Columbus grew. Westerville, Worthington, Dublin, Hilliard, and Gahanna all have "old towns" even though those old towns are today surrounded by suburban subdivisions. 

 

Cleveland doesn't really have as many of these - Berea and Willoughby come to mind, but most all of the suburbs surrounding Cleveland were developed as true suburbs. Even Lakewood and Cleveland Heights, though developed pre-car, were developed as suburbs of Cleveland.

Edited July 22, 20213 yr by mu2010

1 minute ago, mu2010 said:

 

 

The nice thing about several of Columbus' suburbs is that they were originally created as towns of their own, and were later swallowed by suburbia. Westerville, Worthington, Dublin, Hilliard, and Gahanna all have "old towns" even as those old towns are surrounded by suburban subdivisions. 

 

Cleveland doesn't really have as many of these - Berea and Willoughby come to mind, but most all of the suburbs surrounding Cleveland were developed as true suburbs.

Chagrin Falls, Hudson, Medina

3 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Chagrin Falls, Hudson, Medina

 

Those were the exact other three I was thinking about adding, but I think Medina and Hudson are a bit further out to be perfectly analogous to some of the Cbus suburbs I listed. Chagrin Falls, I wasn't sure about the exact history of but I knew it's always been some kind of wealthy bedroom community so I didn't know whether to count it as developed independently from Cleveland or not.

 

But, they all have nice old downtowns. Chagrin probably being the nicest and largest.

Edited July 22, 20213 yr by mu2010

2 minutes ago, mu2010 said:

 

Those were the exact other three I was thinking about adding, but I think Medina and Hudson are a bit further out to be perfectly analogous to some of the Cbus suburbs I listed. Chagrin Falls, I wasn't sure about the exact history of but I knew it was always some kind of wealthy bedroom community so I didn't know whether to count it as developed independently from Cleveland or not.

 

But, they all have nice old downtowns. Chagrin probably being the nicest and largest.

Chagrin Falls has been around since before 1850, well before bedroom community was ever a thing

Bedford, Brecksville, and Olmsted Falls as well.  Independence, Solon, Mentor, Avon and Gates Mills also have small areas that were independent small towns before becoming suburbs.  Probably zome others, too, that I can think of later.