Wherever you're writing from, chances are that you've seen at least one building converted from an industrial or other use into loft apartments or condominiums.  If you're in Williamsburg, Greenpoint or Bushwick, NYC, you can't sneeze without hitting one.  If you're in Cleveland, the number is growing and their popularity is apparently what's driving the trend.

 

Personally, I think this is tremendous, as many of these buildings are outstanding examples of our cities' architectural, industrial and commercial heritage.  Also, as I am a proponent of urban development and adaptive re-use in support of sustainable communities and growth towards the future, loft conversions make a lot of sense. 

 

They also make a lot of sense for the people who live and work in them.  Not all loft buildings are intended to support live-work activities.  For example, the Fries & Schuele in Cleveland's Ohio City is a former department store and boasts loft amenities (high ceilings, exposed brick and duct work, large windows, open floor plans), but to my knowledge, are intended for residential uses only. 

 

What inspired this thread is that I've been inside a number of these throughout Brooklyn and Cleveland over the past few years...some legal and some not.  I find them to be fantastic spaces, inspiring, and a great asset for our older cities to build upon in creating new, unique opportunities for residents that cannot be found or re-created as part of the growing new suburbanist movement.

 

Just this weekend, I had a chance to visit the Hyacinth Loft building North Broadway area of Cleveland's Slavic  Village (3030 East 63rd Street).  Not only did I find the building to be breathtaking inside and out and not only was it full of interesting people young and old, trendy and conventional, creative and appreciative of creativity, but I also found that it hosts, entirely within its own walls, its own functioning micro-economy.

 

While there, I chatted with a designer friend, who was hosting the party.  I visited the loft of a film-producer friend, who does all of her editing in her unit.  I observed a performance art installation that ran throughout the night in a shared side room.  I met the building's developer, David Perkowski, who also did the Tower Press building and assured me that it was the tenants that I should be looking to for inspiration.

 

I also met another film producer, who told me that his firm was expanding into a second space in the building because of the opportunities and advantages that the Hyacinth offered.  Not only does he have all the tech capacity that he needs in his unit, but there's a black-box space with a "green screen" available, a two-story community loft for openings and other events, an editing suite, and a sound room.  That, and he told me that he's been able to hire several tenants from throughout the building to work on assorted projects.  I was in the midst of a real, working agglomeration economy, all contained within an old Board of Education warehouse!

 

Across the street from the Hyacinth Lofts, there is another building waiting for its turn to shine.  The Meyer Dairy building is next on the list, with preliminary plans for conversion to lofts catering to performance artists, such as dancers.  Apparently, the existing hardwood floors are to die for...

 

 

You snap a shitload of photos while walking around Ohio City and Tremont and you take no pics of this Slavic Village beauty despite getting access to its interior?

 

Bad UrbanOhioan!  :whip:

I know... I was kicking myself all night!  I'm sure I'll have another chance, though!

Yeah, lofts are great. I had heard about the Hyacinth lofts previously, and I would love to see how they are set up and all of the creative amenities.  Great to hear that they really did find the artists and creative types that they had hoped to fill the building with.

 

That said, the conventional wisdom is that the lofts market will always be relatively small because most apartment dwellers just won't know what to do with so much raw space.  We generally aren't accustomed to structuring space for ourselves, it is usually done for us, at least in outline.  The alternative is the "soft loft", which has loft style design elements- high ceilings, exposed brick and structural wood and metal, etc, but with differentiated rooms, finished floors, built in lighting, etc.  These make up the majority of what is being called "lofts" these days.

 

Cleveland has a tremendous stock of old industrial buildings still waiting to be converted.  I feel as if it is a race against time, though.  So many of these buildings are sitting vacant, or in marginal use.  It would be a shame to see any more lost.  A lot of people still don't seem to appreciate the possibilities inherent in these structures and so see them as either disposable, or something to work hard at getting rid of. 

Hey Mister Good Day, I also appreciate the loft conversions that have recently appeared all over the city of Cleveland. I have been inside a number myself and usually let my jaws drop when I see each one for the first time. I am actually in preliminary stages to purchase a site and do some conversions to create a unit for myself and depending on the size and funding, the possibility to convert the rest of the site for other tenants. My initial plans saw me moving in on sites in Chinatown, as a lot of warehouses/industrial sites are for sale in that 10 block radius from E. 30 to E. 40 between Payne and Superior. I would have to say that I really like the Payne Avenue Lofts at E. 36th Street. The Painters Loft Condo's on Franklin and W. 82nd Street are also very nice, but not in a neighborhood I am ready to live in yet. I also had the chance to go through a # of privately owned warehouses on Superior near E. 23, E. 24, and E. 25th St. 2500 Superior's entire top floor is one of the most beautiful lofts I have been inside. The owner is a very wealthy businessman who owns a large number of properties all along the innerbelt between Payne and St. Claire. I was there with my partners and reps in an attempt to make a deal on some vacant land at E. 25th and Superior, and so we had the meeting in his loft. When I told him my love for lofts, he gave me a full tour of the building including the private penthouse segment of his loft. He told me a lot of the warehouses over there are more active than they look from the outside! Loftworks is also a nice property at E. 40th and Payne. Mister Good Day, if you can share w/ me the locations of other known loft properties in Cleveland, I'd appreciate that very much so! If possible, could you distinguish which are lease/rental and which are owner occupied?

bizbiz,

 

How much are you thinking something like one of the sites that you plan on buying will cost ya? Myself I have been eyeballing some smaller buildings that can be lofted  in chinatown too.

Smackem,

 

The range is so broad that I can't really answer your question. The dollar per squarefoot varies widely, not always by location, but rather by the condition of the property. A lot of industrial sites in Chinatown and in the general vicinity of Goodrich-Kirtland Park are priced very attractively for a number of reasons, but mainly because the area is slowly walking away from the industrial market and into mixed-use. You'll need about 20% downpayment on the property, which would be $60,000-$100,000 on average (in Chinatown). Then you will either need the cash in your hand to gut the property or be able to secure a second SBA to cover that - in which the banks are willing to do. I have seen potential warehouses/industrial sites in Chinatown and nearby range in price from $300,000 to $2,000,000, prior to being gutted. The price of conversion could cost as much as the property itself. Most industrial properties in Chinatown are about 15,000 to 30,000 sqft. These properties could house 10-20 lofts if developed correctly. The return would be enormous, but the amount of planning and work involved is also "enormous". For single loft development, it's going to be a lot more difficult since you generally can't just buy only a part of a warehouse or building, unless of course it's already rehabbed and converted, as is the case with Loftworks and Payne Ave. Lofts. Those run from $120,000 to $250,000.

Well the particular building I've been looking at is at most 13,000 sqft and according to the county auditors website would go for $122,000. The building probably needs alot of work (as there are some smashed out windows in the upper storeis), but the location is nice and the building is as larges as I would ever possible need. I was just wondering what you have found to be the norm in chinatown area.

Hey Smackem81 - do you need a partner/investor? That's a terrific price! You could put more than a dozen good-sized units into a building like that.

what people should so is got in together, form a cooperative to buy a building, do common area renovation, and run plumbing, electric etc. then owners could finish their unit as they please. If you take out the middleman (a developer) then I am sure this could be more affordable. At one time I thought about really trying to put something together, but I did not know how you would find like minded people., and it seemed like a lot of work for an already too busy person.  I took the easy way out and live in a new development condo now -which I am very happy with, but I envy those that could design their own space

The Cuyahoga County Auditor's website is not going to tell you the price that someone will sell their property for. That is what the appraisal value is, but the seller can ask whatever they want, and will usually ask a lot more. Just for the record, I am looking at a property on Brookpark Road in Cleveland and the seller wants 1.25$ million. The Auditor's website values the property at just $425,000. Is the building you found for sale, or just one that you saw and liked? The problem with just picking a building that looks vacant but is not on the market yet is that the owner may not want to sell. There are a LOT and I mean a *LOT* of nice properties on the market, but they are for lease only and the owner specifically wants to remain the owner and lease it out. However, there's still a good amount of stuff "for sale" over there. As for prices I have seen, I am going to make a longshot ballpark figure: $300,000 - $900,000 for a typical warehouse between 15,000 to 30,000 SQFT. Anything over a million is usually due to excellent condition and location along Superior or Chester. I was inside of 4133 Payne and really liked the building, but it has no windows and the parking lot in front of it is owned by another owner/company and they want a lot of money for that single parcel because it's a corner lot. You'd need both parcels to make a site out of 4133 Payne. I am speaking primitevely about Chinatown because that's where I have focused most of my attention on. There's a lot of warehouses also available along Detroit Ave. in Ohio City, but I haven't looked into any of those.

^^Nah, not really in the buying market right now or anything. I was just looking into the future like 5 years down the road when I'm in the buying market.

 

Ugh I was clicking the wrong parcel, so all that stuff is inacurate for the building I particularly want. I found it in this thread. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=6530.0 Its in the 29th pic from the top building. The red brick building is the one I mistakenly gave info for. The one I like is right next to the red brick building.

 

Its about 7,000 sqft and the audior says market rate is about $75,000. It is/was used for some type of equipment warehousing, but I think its vacant. There are some smashed out windows in the second floor (that you cant see in the pic) that overlooks the roof of the friendship auto service, so I can't say what work it would need. You probaly couldnt do muitiple units in the building, but thats not what I was realy looking to do. Something like use the bottom floor as garage/workspace, second floor as main living space, and down the road build an addition on top of the roof as a master bedroom and access to a roof patio/garden.

 

Its all jsut a bunch of dreams for right now. But its allways good to look into what I'm getting into.

^The auditor's market rate is not necessarily a valid appraisal. 

Yeah I realise that. I figure something like the acutal market rate for buildings vs auditors rate for other buildings in the area, would be an aproximate ratio for other buildings not nessisarily being sold currently.

Why are most lofts so expensive?  I don't understand why they're always luxury. Can't you convert an old factory into average apartments that can go for a reasonable price without paying 1500 a month or 300k for a condo?  Does the high cost of a loft come from building cost of remodeling an old building or is it because of demand, high ceilings/more square footage, what is it?

I think that right now they'll charge as much as people will pay for these. Although the number of residential units is increasing downtown, there aren't that many people moving in when compared to the suburbs and so until they don't bite for 300k condos they'll then start making lower priced condos/apartments. I think this applies to all of the largest cities here.

So basically, as loft condos get more and more popular, they don't hold their value? If you buy a loft condo right now for 300k and the only reason it's that high is because of supply and demand, then new development will lower your property value?  That's stupid.  There's only 4k people in downtown Cincinnati and like 8k people in Downtown Columbus so I don't think the demand to live downtown is all that high anyway, to be realistic. I don't understand why they're so high. I haven't looked into lofts a whole lot, but I'm trying to understand why people would pay so much more just because it's a loft.  I think the idea of converting old industrial buildings into residential property is genius but why isn't it marketed towards the people that are just looking for a basic 500-600 a month apt?  Would it be feasible to buy old commercial buildings and convert it to apartments that cost the same as anywhere else, or does the conversion cost so much that the price has to be raised?

I think its because its just a bunch of speculators holding onto it hoping for big money. Once one building in an area gets converted (and probably a few others), everyone else wants to do that too. Most moderately sized old warehouse buildings you can probably get about 10 loft condos out of it, then price them out at $175,000+. So they see all the money that could be made, I think they tend to overpice their building or don't sell at all so they dont "loose" out on all the money that could be made.

 

As for individual loft units, I agree they cost way too much. In cleveland I personaly think alot of the downtown stuff is overpriced, some of the detroit-shoreway, little italy area, some oddball chinatown/midtown ones. But with those you're paying for location not space. Payne Ave. Lofts, Painters lofts, and Muller lofts seem to be at "more normalized, correct" price.

Downtown real estate is often expensive along with the costs of rehabbing an old building.  When you are talking about  buildings 100 years or older, you never know what you'll find.  Some of the building rehabs involve gutting out the inside of the building and installing new plumbing and electrical wiring.

 

Some of these lofts also have upscale finishes such as granite countertops in the kitchen and bathrooms and hardwood floors throughout the whole unit.  These features alone are also expensive.

So basically, as loft condos get more and more popular, they don't hold their value? If you buy a loft condo right now for 300k and the only reason it's that high is because of supply and demand, then new development will lower your property value?  That's stupid.  There's only 4k people in downtown Cincinnati and like 8k people in Downtown Columbus so I don't think the demand to live downtown is all that high anyway, to be realistic. I don't understand why they're so high. I haven't looked into lofts a whole lot, but I'm trying to understand why people would pay so much more just because it's a loft.  I think the idea of converting old industrial buildings into residential property is genius but why isn't it marketed towards the people that are just looking for a basic 500-600 a month apt?  Would it be feasible to buy old commercial buildings and convert it to apartments that cost the same as anywhere else, or does the conversion cost so much that the price has to be raised?

 

I should have pointed out that the cheaper condos would be built further out.

Downtown real estate is often expensive along with the costs of rehabbing an old building.  When you are talking about  buildings 100 years or older, you never know what you'll find.  Some of the building rehabs involve gutting out the inside of the building and installing new plumbing and electrical wiring.

 

Some of these lofts also have upscale finishes such as granite countertops in the kitchen and bathrooms and hardwood floors throughout the whole unit.  These features alone are also expensive.

 

Compared to new construction, its cheaper to renovate the old. Especially with the historic tax credits if you are going to do rentals.

Downtown real estate is often expensive along with the costs of rehabbing an old building.  When you are talking about  buildings 100 years or older, you never know what you'll find.  Some of the building rehabs involve gutting out the inside of the building and installing new plumbing and electrical wiring.

 

Some of these lofts also have upscale finishes such as granite countertops in the kitchen and bathrooms and hardwood floors throughout the whole unit.  These features alone are also expensive.

 

Compared to new construction, its cheaper to renovate the old. Especially with the historic tax credits if you are going to do rentals.

 

How much cheaper? I was under the impression that a lot of buildings in Over The Rhine aren't worth gutting and restoring because there just isn't money to be made. Do you know of any websites or have exact information of the cost of acquiring the building, loft conversion, and profit margin? I want to find some examples. If there is a lot of money that could be made, I have access to multi-millionaire investors that buy non controlling stock  :-D

Why are most lofts so expensive? 

 

IMO, it is somewhat market driven and there is sufficient demand to support the prices.  but, there is also a 'hole' in the market for mid-priced unts that might not have high end finishes, but are still in a desirable part of downtown.  I also think some of the demand is very location driven and not value driven.  I don't think a lot of these units in Cleveland would resell at the same or higher price.  The developers are cashing in (and they are taking risks, so i'm ok with this), but i think they have priced the product to include the tax abatements and haven't left much leftover for a pioneer homeowner downtown to realize in the short term, say 3-5 years. 

 

Two other observations:

 

1) Part of the problem appears to be lack of outside investment into the city.  In Cleveland, there are a few bigger regional players doing almost all of the work.  The biggest national developer based here, isn't doing any new residential downtown.  We need and have room for some larger national developers to accelerate the pace.  There is a lot of money sitting in overpriced markets today.  Should get that here.

 

2) Barriers to entry.  Almost anyone could build a house/condo on a greenfield piece of land.  In order to build/rehab downtown, it takes some experience and some dollars, which both seem to be lacking.  Not to mention the historic difficulty in working with the city on code/design issues.  You aren't going to find a mortgages on commerial property with 10% down and 30 year term at 6%.  This is where outside dollars could come in. 

 

I think there is a need for more of this cooperative type of development and there appear to be many small to midsized buildings available to do this.  Get 3 or 4 friends/partners and get the ball rolling.

Do you know of any websites or have exact information of the cost of acquiring the building, loft conversion, and profit margin?

 

Here is one example:

http://www.craftsman-book.com/

 

 

Why are most lofts so expensive? 

 

IMO, it is somewhat market driven and there is sufficient demand to support the prices.  but, there is also a 'hole' in the market for mid-priced unts that might not have high end finishes, but are still in a desirable part of downtown.  I also think some of the demand is very location driven and not value driven.  I don't think a lot of these units in Cleveland would resell at the same or higher price.  The developers are cashing in (and they are taking risks, so i'm ok with this), but i think they have priced the product to include the tax abatements and haven't left much leftover for a pioneer homeowner downtown to realize in the short term, say 3-5 years. 

 

Two other observations:

 

1) Part of the problem appears to be lack of outside investment into the city.  In Cleveland, there are a few bigger regional players doing almost all of the work.  The biggest national developer based here, isn't doing any new residential downtown.  We need and have room for some larger national developers to accelerate the pace.  There is a lot of money sitting in overpriced markets today.  Should get that here.

 

2) Barriers to entry.  Almost anyone could build a house/condo on a greenfield piece of land.  In order to build/rehab downtown, it takes some experience and some dollars, which both seem to be lacking.  Not to mention the historic difficulty in working with the city on code/design issues.  You aren't going to find a mortgages on commerial property with 10% down and 30 year term at 6%.  This is where outside dollars could come in. 

 

I think there is a need for more of this cooperative type of development and there appear to be many small to midsized buildings available to do this.  Get 3 or 4 friends/partners and get the ball rolling.

What about commercial buildings outside of downtown?  Buildings could be bought a lot cheaper and converted to lofts. With property being less expensive away from downtown, the consumer would pay less and lower cost of rent could be a good incentive to still live there even though it's not downtown.  There's only so many people willing to pay 1500 a month for a loft.  It seems like they're overlooking a huge group of people.