FC wouldn't be getting into all these details with those obscure individual lots if they hadn't spent a ton of time planning this whole thing out 18 months ago. 

WCPO has listed the properties that FC seeks to acquire...incredibly, they want all of the random lots in the middle of the Hope IV development that were never built-out thanks to Bush's cuts:

https://www.scribd.com/document/369837258/FC-Cincinnati-CMHA-properties#from_embed

 

Would they develop housing at all those in-between vacant sites? That would be a big positive if they did that.

FC likely wants to combine the Stargel site and the undeveloped plots on Laurel Park Drive and relocate people that are living in between. I have no idea how many residents that is, or what the logistics of that would be.

The further away from Central Parkway, the less I like the idea of the stadium in the West End. The stadium wouldn’t be a good neighbor if it’s placed in the purely residential City West area. I hope they’re looking at the CMHA properties to a) relocate Stargel and/or b) add more housing units. I really hope they find a way to situate the stadium closer to Central Parkway.

^I believe that they are maneuvering to:

 

a. pay almost nothing for any of the land they need

b. pay almost nothing for any of the land they want

 

...which is why they're going after all of this publicly-owned land.  As I've speculated for upwards of a year, they're following the Nashville MLS strategy, which was to get free public land at the Nashville Fairgrounds AND put commercial uses completely unrelated to the MLS team on the land they get for free. 

 

 

 

 

FC likely wants to combine the Stargel site and the undeveloped plots on Laurel Park Drive and relocate people that are living in between. I have no idea how many residents that is, or what the logistics of that would be.

 

Why do you think that? That would a worse case scenario I would fight tooth and nail. Do you think they would be that careless with their image with socially conscious millenials as their fan base? It would be a totally stupid unforced error on their part.

I'm counting 152 homes between Central Ave. and Laurel Park Drive.  That's a lot to bulldoze. 

jmecklenborg[/member] - I feel like you are discounting the leverage CPS has in this situation. They don’t need to sell. There will be immense political pressure for them to NOT sell. So FCC will have to make them a super sweet deal. I don’t have any reason to think the CPS board is beholden to the Lindners.

FC likely wants to combine the Stargel site and the undeveloped plots on Laurel Park Drive and relocate people that are living in between. I have no idea how many residents that is, or what the logistics of that would be.

 

Why do you think that? That would a worse case scenario I would fight tooth and nail. Do you think they would be that careless with their image with socially conscious millenials as their fan base? It would be a totally stupid unforced error on their part.

 

Obviously, pure speculation here. But let's say they want to acquire Stargel Stadium for the main part of their site. Well, that's not enough space, so their options are either to buy properties to the east or properties to the west. Maybe they are exploring both possibilities, but we don't yet have any evidence that they're looking at properties to the east. What would be the point of owning properties along Laurel Park Drive? I can't think of any reason that makes sense, unless they plan to acquire some of the homes in between John Street and Laurel Park Drive.

 

I'm counting 152 homes between Central Ave. and Laurel Park Drive.  That's a lot to bulldoze. 

 

It doesn't necessarily have to be all of those homes. They might try to acquire only the homes south of Wade Street and north of Derrick Turnbow Avenue or maybe Betton Street, and orient the stadium in a east-west direction in that area instead of the north-south orientation of Stargel.

Yeah perhaps they want the empty lots to replace the homes they would need to tear down along the west side of John St.  Tearing down 5 homes per row gets them 100 feet, so approximatly 30 homes. 

 

 

Yeah perhaps they want the empty lots to replace the homes they would need to tear down along the west side of John St.  Tearing down 5 homes per row gets them 100 feet, so approximatly 30 homes. 

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking. If the new stadium is bounded by Wade, Central Ave, Betton, and Laural Park, they should be able to rebuild a similar number of homes on the vacant lots they would be acquiring west of Laurel Park and south of Betton.

 

I think the lot south of Ezzard Charles will be used for a replacement HS football stadium. It doesn't look big enough for a track, but possibly big enough for just football.

Actually, there is plenty of room to move Stargel (with the track) to the Citirama site.

Actually, there is plenty of room to move Stargel (with the track) to the Citirama site.

 

Wouldn’t this be a poor use of urban land as opposed to working out an agreement for CPS to use the soccer stadium? I would hope some sharing would be possible...

Does the Stargel replacement need to be in the West End? My understanding is that it's shared by 5 of the CPS schools. Is there room near the other 4?

Actually, there is plenty of room to move Stargel (with the track) to the Citirama site.

 

Wouldn’t this be a poor use of urban land as opposed to working out an agreement for CPS to use the soccer stadium? I would hope some sharing would be possible...

 

There is zero chance that FC Cincinnati would invest $150 million in a professional soccer stadium and then let five public high school football teams use it as their home stadium. Maybe the Citirama site isn't the best location for it from an urban planning perspective, but it will help CPS justify the land swap since it would only be moving across the street, and there wouldn't be a big public debate about "football being kicked out of the West End."

I think FC only wants the Citirama site for parking. The Stargel site, coupled with the Central Ave. ROW and properties east of that over to Providence seem ideal for a stadium. They probably only want the rest of the Laurel Homes properties so that they can have control over what's eventually built there.

 

Maybe they can cut UC a check to let CPS use Nippert for high school games?

Here’s the deal why I am getting so upset hearing everyone talk about demolitions of the public housing west of John Street.  The public housing west of John Street is the some newest, best designed, cleanest, and safest public housing in the city. Those streets are safe to walk down and filled with kids at play. It would be damn wasteful to tear down that housing, even if was going to be replaced one for one in the immediate vicinity, while so much of our other public and subsidized housing is aging and not up to the same standard, and a great need exists beyond the current supply. If the only time there’s money to build new affordable housing is when the richest person in town wants the land underneath existing affordable housing, that’s not right.

 

If on the other hand the plan is to leave the homes west of John intact, perhaps do a garage and mixed use develop on the large plot south of Ezzard Charles, fill in the random vacant CMHA plots with housing, and work out an agreement with Taft to share a new stadium and be involved with the school, I would consider that a win-win for the neighborhood. The Lindners and partners certainly have enough cash to do all of that.

 

 

FC Cincinnati signs purchase option for large number of West End properties

 

FC Cincinnati is seeking the right to acquire a major swath of land and properties from the Cincinnati Metropolitan Housing Authority as it pursues a potential stadium in the West End.

 

The club made its request on Jan. 16 and has signed a purchase option for the vacant former Laurel Homes site in the southwest corner of Ezzard Charles Drive and John Street, formerly a staging area for construction of the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar. But the option does not stop there. It includes other CMHA properties north of Ezzard Charles Drive around Laurel Recreation Area that mostly are vacant. That area does contain privately owned homes that are not included in the purchase option. A schematic of the properties included in the option shows FC Cincinnati would acquire 64 different properties owned by the housing authority.

 

The purchase option calls for the properties to be sold to the club at fair market value after an appraisal. The option period ends after one year.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/01/23/fc-cincinnati-signs-purchase-option-for-large.html

Here’s the deal why I am getting so upset hearing everyone talk about demolitions of the public housing west of John Street.  The public housing west of John Street is the some newest, best designed, cleanest, and safest public housing in the city. Those streets are safe to walk down and filled with kids at play. It would be damn wasteful to tear down that housing, even if was going to be replaced one for one in the immediate vicinity, while so much of our other public and subsidized housing is aging and not up to the same standard, and a great need exists beyond the current supply. If the only time there’s money to build new affordable housing is when the richest person in town wants the land underneath existing affordable housing, that’s not right.

 

Agreed on that point. I still think it's quite possible that they want to go with the "east" option and no public housing ends up getting demolished. I still think the Citirama site will most likely be used for a new CPS stadium and the Town Center Garage will be rebuilt larger than its current size. The city and county have already agreed to fund a new parking garage (under the Oakley plan), and the city has been wanting to redevelop the Town Center Garage for a long time, so I don't know why they wouldn't do that. Maybe we'll even get the Music Hall Skywalk rebuilt as part of this deal! The only thing I can't understand is why they would want the lots along Laurel Park... but maybe CMHA gave them an "all or nothing" deal for their remaining undeveloped lots.

Actually, there is plenty of room to move Stargel (with the track) to the Citirama site.

 

If they were going to rebuild Stargel there though, might it be easier to put the whole stadium at the Citirama site, extending over Clark Street to the south?

Chris Wetterich of the Cincinnati business courier tweeted that he’s heard rumors that’s citirama Site Will home to new Stargell stadium, while fcc would occupy old Stargell site.

The "citirama" block is about 480 feet from north to south. So if a replacement HS football stadium is built east-west along the south edge of the property, about 80 feet would remain along Ezzard Charles, which is enough space for about 20 homes.  Unfortunately, they'll likely instead use that strip for parking.  They might eliminate the center landscaping islands in Cutter St. to get a bit more width to comfortably fence in a running track .

The "citirama" block is about 480 feet from north to south. So if a replacement HS football stadium is built east-west along the south edge of the property, about 80 feet would remain along Ezzard Charles, which is enough space for about 20 homes.  Unfortunately, they'll likely instead use that strip for parking.  They might eliminate the center landscaping islands in Cutter St. to get a bit more width to comfortably fence in a running track .

 

Why? I imagine FCC will spur a new parking garage to be created near central park way. I don't think that extra land would necessarily need to be surfance lot parking.

The "citirama" block is about 480 feet from north to south. So if a replacement HS football stadium is built east-west along the south edge of the property, about 80 feet would remain along Ezzard Charles, which is enough space for about 20 homes.  Unfortunately, they'll likely instead use that strip for parking.  They might eliminate the center landscaping islands in Cutter St. to get a bit more width to comfortably fence in a running track .

 

Someone on Twitter pointed out that I did not include the small building that houses the locker rooms and weight room in the mockup that I posted earlier. However there is enough room to add those on the southeast corner of that block.

Not being a fan, during all of this I've been sort of shocked by the stadium renderings. The ones I've seen make it look like a big uninviting orange blob. But then I looked for some street level renderings and found ones like this, which I find much more interesting. Are these stadia actually built this way? It seems so open - how do they control access?

^Those are lights that I would imagine be turned off on non-match days. The stadium design is basically a much smaller American version of Allianz Arena in Munich, home of FC Bayern Munich and 1860 Munich. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allianz_Arena. Allianz is white/gray when the lights aren't on and then can change colors to anyway they want.  The stadium turns red for Bayern home games and blue for 1860 home games.

The "citirama" block is about 480 feet from north to south. So if a replacement HS football stadium is built east-west along the south edge of the property, about 80 feet would remain along Ezzard Charles, which is enough space for about 20 homes.  Unfortunately, they'll likely instead use that strip for parking.  They might eliminate the center landscaping islands in Cutter St. to get a bit more width to comfortably fence in a running track .

I don't think there'd be any need to encroach on Cutter. As you said, the best option would be to situate the track and field towards the southern portion of that site. If they do that, it would give enough room for the full track to fit comfortably. Attached is an image showing how it would fit with room to spare. The extra space to the north and the "corners" on the south side could be used for additional athletic facilities (locker rooms, basketball courts, etc). I suspect CPS would want its own on-site parking, so probably some of the extra space would go towards parking. 

 

Like most CPS I would hope that CPS would be open to making this new facility a "community asset", so that when it's not being used by the schools, it is open to the neighborhood. If well designed, it could be a real neighborhood asset. From an urbanist perspective, it's not ideal to have two large athletic facilities next to each other... but the fact is that City West has a glut of empty lots right now... so taking some of those off the market would help drive demand for the remaining empty lots.

 

Not being a fan, during all of this I've been sort of shocked by the stadium renderings. The ones I've seen make it look like a big uninviting orange blob. But then I looked for some street level renderings and found ones like this, which I find much more interesting. Are these stadia actually built this way? It seems so open - how do they control access?

Depending on how the stadium is situated, that "plaza" area would probably be behind gates. I think that rendering was designed with Newport in mind with that plaza facing the River. Not sure how that would translate to the West End where they would be more constrained on all sides by streets and existing buildings.

Not being a fan, during all of this I've been sort of shocked by the stadium renderings. The ones I've seen make it look like a big uninviting orange blob. But then I looked for some street level renderings and found ones like this, which I find much more interesting. Are these stadia actually built this way? It seems so open - how do they control access?

 

The street-level openness reminds me of Nippert.

There is zero chance that a new FC Cincinnati stadium would be used on a regular basis by high schools sports teams. The grass would be in ruins if they tried to do that. They would likely use it for high school football or soccer championship matches or big tournaments mainly after the MLS season concludes, and they have months to fix the grass.

 

According to the team during the presentation of the stadium renderings, the panels would be like Allianz Arena in Munich where it would be a regular white color, and could light up to be orange and blue during game days. They wouldn't be lit up every day. (side note: 1860 Munich no longer plays in Allianz. They were relegated to Regionalliga Bayern, a small local league, after they failed to pay for a license to continue in 3. Bundesliga. They now play in Grünwalder Stadion with a capacity of 12,500)

 

These renderings are still *largely* conceptual. They likely have the basic seating arrangement to fit 21,000 people, and understand how the stadium will look, but they don't have an actual site plan that's been released, so take any details in the renderings regarding access and concourses with a grain of salt.

Chris Wetterich of the Cincinnati business courier tweeted that he’s heard rumors that’s citirama Site Will home to new Stargell stadium, while fcc would occupy old Stargell site.

 

This makes the most sense.  FCC isn't going to let CPS use their stadium and tear up the grass.  They only want the Southwest corner land for a land swap. 

 

They'll build CPS a new stadium on the SW corner and then build the FC Stadium at the current CPS stadium site, rerouting Central Avenue as necessary. 

 

Also, I believe this will spur redevelopment of the CET property and a new garage will handle the FCC parking. 

Not being a fan, during all of this I've been sort of shocked by the stadium renderings. The ones I've seen make it look like a big uninviting orange blob. But then I looked for some street level renderings and found ones like this, which I find much more interesting. Are these stadia actually built this way? It seems so open - how do they control access?

Depending on how the stadium is situated, that "plaza" area would probably be behind gates. I think that rendering was designed with Newport in mind with that plaza facing the River. Not sure how that would translate to the West End where they would be more constrained on all sides by streets and existing buildings.

Yeah they could do it by securing the plaza, or there could be secured gates at the stadium entry points. Either way would work.

I'm confused, where is it mentioned they're looking to tear down anything in City West? Aren't they proposing replacing an existing HS field with the new stadium? Why would that require the demolition of the subsidized housing?

^Nowhere does it say anything about tearing down housing.  Just peoples speculations and conspiracy theories.  Everybody just needs to wait and see what happens here.

Still likely to happen though, I know this city all too well...

I'm confused, where is it mentioned they're looking to tear down anything in City West? Aren't they proposing replacing an existing HS field with the new stadium? Why would that require the demolition of the subsidized housing?

 

That have not announced anything about tearing down public housing. But the Stargel Stadium site is not big enough for a MLS stadium, so they will need to acquire other properties either to the east or west of Stargel. And we know that they are trying to acquire several empty lots owned by CMHA.

Interesting detective work on the r/FCCincinnati subreddit;

 

Inspired by a comment made by /u/soccer2664, I have spent the morning looking into a plot of land 1409-1413 Central Pkwy recently purchased by SNM Properties. Here are the facts:

 

SNM Properties incorporated 11/21/17. The two names on the paperwork are James M Jansing and Robert Lesan III.

Both men are lawyers who work for a Cincinnati-area law firm KMK

KMK have publicly worked with American Financial and Cintas.

American Financial is owned by the Lindners, and Cintas owned by the Farmers, of course

The CEO of KMK is Jim McGraw. He was one of three people at a city hall session with Berding and Carl

KMK has previously and recently handled legal filings for FCC

(Speculation) - Further, KMK have been rumored to be the law firm in charge of MLS2Cincy paperwork

(Speculation) Finally, 1409-1413 Central PKWY were sold for $1.1 Million.... a VERY high price for that area.

To me, this leads to one conclusion - that FCC via KMK Law via SNM Properties are working to buy up private lots in the West End that are not currently owned by the Cincinnati Metropolitan Housing Authority. Further, I suspect that we are getting closer to announcing a West End stadium, once FCC and CPS have gone through the public meetings that will be necessary.

 

 

 

FC getting $4 million in state money...$1 million of that sum was originally slated for the Wasson Way trail:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics/2018/01/22/lawmakers-ax-money-proposed-film-campus-wasson-way-list-gop-leaders/1054908001/

Interesting detective work on the r/FCCincinnati subreddit;

 

Inspired by a comment made by /u/soccer2664, I have spent the morning looking into a plot of land 1409-1413 Central Pkwy recently purchased by SNM Properties. Here are the facts:

 

SNM Properties incorporated 11/21/17. The two names on the paperwork are James M Jansing and Robert Lesan III.

Both men are lawyers who work for a Cincinnati-area law firm KMK

KMK have publicly worked with American Financial and Cintas.

American Financial is owned by the Lindners, and Cintas owned by the Farmers, of course

The CEO of KMK is Jim McGraw. He was one of three people at a city hall session with Berding and Carl

KMK has previously and recently handled legal filings for FCC

(Speculation) - Further, KMK have been rumored to be the law firm in charge of MLS2Cincy paperwork

(Speculation) Finally, 1409-1413 Central PKWY were sold for $1.1 Million.... a VERY high price for that area.

To me, this leads to one conclusion - that FCC via KMK Law via SNM Properties are working to buy up private lots in the West End that are not currently owned by the Cincinnati Metropolitan Housing Authority. Further, I suspect that we are getting closer to announcing a West End stadium, once FCC and CPS have gone through the public meetings that will be necessary.

 

 

 

 

Facing it along the parkway would be a wonderful outcome for all sides i'd think. I realize there is a lot of sneakiness in the property game so i wont get my hopes up but wow that would be a wonderful spot.

Interesting detective work on the r/FCCincinnati subreddit;

 

Inspired by a comment made by /u/soccer2664, I have spent the morning looking into a plot of land 1409-1413 Central Pkwy recently purchased by SNM Properties. Here are the facts:

 

SNM Properties incorporated 11/21/17. The two names on the paperwork are James M Jansing and Robert Lesan III.

Both men are lawyers who work for a Cincinnati-area law firm KMK

KMK have publicly worked with American Financial and Cintas.

American Financial is owned by the Lindners, and Cintas owned by the Farmers, of course

The CEO of KMK is Jim McGraw. He was one of three people at a city hall session with Berding and Carl

KMK has previously and recently handled legal filings for FCC

(Speculation) - Further, KMK have been rumored to be the law firm in charge of MLS2Cincy paperwork

(Speculation) Finally, 1409-1413 Central PKWY were sold for $1.1 Million.... a VERY high price for that area.

To me, this leads to one conclusion - that FCC via KMK Law via SNM Properties are working to buy up private lots in the West End that are not currently owned by the Cincinnati Metropolitan Housing Authority. Further, I suspect that we are getting closer to announcing a West End stadium, once FCC and CPS have gone through the public meetings that will be necessary.

 

 

 

 

I think they are a bit into the conspiracy theories on this. Jim McGraw is in charge of the KMK Consulting arm not the law firm. This is a governmental consulting firm that consults with municipal governments.

Interesting detective work on the r/FCCincinnati subreddit;

 

Inspired by a comment made by /u/soccer2664, I have spent the morning looking into a plot of land 1409-1413 Central Pkwy recently purchased by SNM Properties. Here are the facts:

 

SNM Properties incorporated 11/21/17. The two names on the paperwork are James M Jansing and Robert Lesan III.

Both men are lawyers who work for a Cincinnati-area law firm KMK

KMK have publicly worked with American Financial and Cintas.

American Financial is owned by the Lindners, and Cintas owned by the Farmers, of course

The CEO of KMK is Jim McGraw. He was one of three people at a city hall session with Berding and Carl

KMK has previously and recently handled legal filings for FCC

(Speculation) - Further, KMK have been rumored to be the law firm in charge of MLS2Cincy paperwork

(Speculation) Finally, 1409-1413 Central PKWY were sold for $1.1 Million.... a VERY high price for that area.

To me, this leads to one conclusion - that FCC via KMK Law via SNM Properties are working to buy up private lots in the West End that are not currently owned by the Cincinnati Metropolitan Housing Authority. Further, I suspect that we are getting closer to announcing a West End stadium, once FCC and CPS have gone through the public meetings that will be necessary.

 

 

 

 

I think they are a bit into the conspiracy theories on this. Jim McGraw is in charge of the KMK Consulting arm not the law firm. This is a governmental consulting firm that consults with municipal governments.

Doesn't matter. If true very very smart play. that is exactly how to acquire real estate if the end goal is the west end. You don't announce West End or die and then hope.

Somehow this reddit researcher missed the very important fact that John Cranley used to work for KMK:

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2009/01/07/390532/157186/en/Keating-Muething-Klekamp-Announced-Today-That-Cincinnati-City-Councilman-John-Cranley-Has-Joined-the-Firm.html

Somehow this reddit researcher missed the very important fact that John Cranley used to work for KMK:

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2009/01/07/390532/157186/en/Keating-Muething-Klekamp-Announced-Today-That-Cincinnati-City-Councilman-John-Cranley-Has-Joined-the-Firm.html

He worked for Squire Patton Boggs after that? I don't see any corruption angle.

He worked for Squire Patton Boggs after that? I don't see any corruption angle.

 

Well everyone born into giant fortunes (Lindner, Cranley, etc.) is about to bulldoze public housing and acquire public property for pennies on the dollar for their for-profit enterprise.  What is about to happen is pretty spectacular. 

 

Cranley has bought off so many black people with public money (THE ANTHEM DEMUTUALIZATION) over the years that there won't be a giant backlash. 

Somehow this reddit researcher missed the very important fact that John Cranley used to work for KMK:

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2009/01/07/390532/157186/en/Keating-Muething-Klekamp-Announced-Today-That-Cincinnati-City-Councilman-John-Cranley-Has-Joined-the-Firm.html

 

The researcher's analysis is suspect too. Not saying it wont happen, but his connecting the dots speaks more of wild conspiracy theory more than any deep dive analysis.

Here is a video rendering of the new MLS stadium currently under construction in St Paul.  A mini-mi of Allianz, with LED lit ETFE panels, in Munich and even shares the name. The MLS wanted an urban stadium here, the suburbs were told to not bother.  It is located on the site of an ill-conceived shopping center in a dense area of St Paul between the downtowns, next to a freeway, and transit connected via light rail and busway. 

 

I suspect Cincy's delay in announcement is over MLS dissatisfaction with the Oakley site.  Now its a scramble for the West End.  Newport is definitely out of the running at this point. 

 

Here is a video rendering of the new MLS stadium currently under construction in St Paul.  A mini-mi of Allianz, with LED lit ETFE panels, in Munich and even shares the name. The MLS wanted an urban stadium here, the suburbs were told to not bother.  It is located on the site of an ill-conceived shopping center in a dense area of St Paul between the downtowns, next to a freeway, and transit connected via light rail and busway. 

 

I suspect Cincy's delay in announcement is over MLS dissatisfaction with the Oakley site.  Now its a scramble for the West End.  Newport is definitely out of the running at this point. 

 

 

So provincial idiots are finally confronted with a changed reality of the world.  Who knew.  Its funny how this whole thing is playing out...

Somehow this reddit researcher missed the very important fact that John Cranley used to work for KMK:

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/2009/01/07/390532/157186/en/Keating-Muething-Klekamp-Announced-Today-That-Cincinnati-City-Councilman-John-Cranley-Has-Joined-the-Firm.html

 

KMK is a whose who of Cincy politicians usually...

^ all the big firms have their roster of former politicians and such, not just KMK.

#BREAKING: 2018 CiTiRAMA in the West End is on hold until @fccincinnati makes a stadium decision, per Home Builders Association executive director; FCC's land interests in that neighborhood are around the "Stowe Place" site WCPO[/member]