Findlay Playground and the Findlay Market Parking lot as the parking garages suggested by the county would be a catalyst for ramped up development north of Liberty. Sort of off topic but with the office development taking place at 15th and Vine, I imagine 15th, Vine, and Liberty becoming a bit of a office hub in Over-the-Rhine.

Development creeping up Vine has paused, probably pending the Kroger closure. But development on Race and Elm, north (and south) of Liberty, is picking up fast.

Edited November 29, 20186 yr by Robuu

10 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

OTR really isn't gentrifying that fast.  I remember when one of my friends was last in town in 2012, we drove south on Vine and I pointed to the spot where the bars and restaurants started, and it has only crept a half block north in the ensuing six years.  Vine north of Liberty remains a no-man's land. 

 

If 3CDC would have continued their "march up Vine Street" they would be all the way to Liberty by now. However after the first couple of block of Vine Street were redeveloped, they shifted much of their effort to other parts of the neighborhood.

 

I still have a gut feeling that 3CDC is planning a major Mercer Commons-style project (but even larger than Mercer Commons) on the OTR Kroger block. But they don't control the OTR Kroger site yet, and they probably would want to acquire the rest of the land on that block that is currently owned by the Wades, which might be tricky if their divorce isn't finalized yet.

10 hours ago, troeros said:

 

To be fair, it took 3cdc to be the first pioneers to invest in OTR and show a proof of concept. You can definitely see a wave of new investors both local and out of state begin to invest in otr. 

 

A ton of people put money in OTR in the 1990s but lost their investments.  There were a ton of bars there in the 90s as well as new condos, office renovations, etc.  The only thing left from "old" Main St. is Mr. Pitifull's and condos like this:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1602229/111-E-Thirteenth-St-1-Cincinnati-OH-45202

1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

A ton of people put money in OTR in the 1990s but lost their investments.  There were a ton of bars there in the 90s as well as new condos, office renovations, etc.  The only thing left from "old" Main St. is Mr. Pitifull's and condos like this:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1602229/111-E-Thirteenth-St-1-Cincinnati-OH-45202

I've been in that unit before. It's a studio condo which is strange, the table mirror thing is a murphy bed. 

A 150k studio with a Murphy bed????? Yikes.

4 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

A ton of people put money in OTR in the 1990s but lost their investments.  There were a ton of bars there in the 90s as well as new condos, office renovations, etc.  The only thing left from "old" Main St. is Mr. Pitifull's and condos like this:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1602229/111-E-Thirteenth-St-1-Cincinnati-OH-45202

 

I wasn't around during the 90's. Was the main investment in otr at main St?

 

Because looking at Google maps the majority of otr looked like a warzone. 

Main was definitely the center, with some activity on Sycamore and 12th.  There were also a lot of art galleries in the Main St. storefronts (all of them are gone) and 3-4 over on Clay St.  The OTR gallery walk was a pretty big deal and it took 2+ hours to get through all of them including the Pendleton arts center. 

 

There were at least 15 bars on Main St. at its peak from 1998-2003.  Then it dropped all the way down to just two, Mr. Pitifull's and Jefferson Hall, then Jefferson Hall moved to NOTL and for 2~ year Mr. Pitifull's was the only thing left, along with Kaldi's coffee shop.  Kaldi's closed around the time that Neon's reopened under new ownership.   

8 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I wasn't around during the 90's. Was the main investment in otr at main St?

 

Because looking at Google maps the majority of otr looked like a warzone. 

LQ actually did a good job with this in-depth profile of OTR in 2001. Worth watching at least the first ten minutes or so:

 

Trying to remember how much time passed from Coopers closing to Motr opening.

23 minutes ago, Traveler Joe said:

Trying to remember how much time passed from Coopers closing to Motr opening.

 

At least 8 years.  Almost everything closed in 2003.  I think Motr opened around 2011, maybe 2012. 

 

I remember still being able to seethe interior signage for Bar Cincinnati around 2012. 

Not to get too off topic but there was still quite a bit of places hanging on into 2005/2006.  I feel like Coopers shut down around then, Alchemize moved to northside in maybe 06 or 07.  Courtyard Cafe was still kicking in '08 as well and while I only went there once or twice I feel like Harrys was still around in 2005. I feel like this may open some kind of pandoras box for me.

8 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Main was definitely the center, with some activity on Sycamore and 12th.  There were also a lot of art galleries in the Main St. storefronts (all of them are gone) and 3-4 over on Clay St.  The OTR gallery walk was a pretty big deal and it took 2+ hours to get through all of them including the Pendleton arts center. 

 

There were at least 15 bars on Main St. at its peak from 1998-2003.  Then it dropped all the way down to just two, Mr. Pitifull's and Jefferson Hall, then Jefferson Hall moved to NOTL and for 2~ year Mr. Pitifull's was the only thing left, along with Kaldi's coffee shop.  Kaldi's closed around the time that Neon's reopened under new ownership.   

My friend used to hang out at kaldi's and still misses it.

I think you might be generalizing about vine in 2012. I feel like it was only taste of Belgium, Venice on vine,  the indian/african nicnac  store (cant remember the name) and senate then and literally nothing else...me and him used to take pictures of all of the abandoned storefronts and graffiti back then.

2 hours ago, climberguy714 said:

My friend used to hang out at kaldi's and still misses it.

I think you might be generalizing about vine in 2012. I feel like it was only taste of Belgium, Venice on vine,  the indian/african nicnac  store (cant remember the name) and senate then and literally nothing else...me and him used to take pictures of all of the abandoned storefronts and graffiti back then.

 

Yes, Vine in 2012 is nothing like what it is today. Even in 2012 it still felt like walking around otr was somewhat of an edgy thing to do. It was still in the shadow of it's crime ridden past. 

 

It felt like true momentum was built when more of the restaurant corridor was filled out. Especially on neighboring intersection streets like republic/Walut/race, etc. 

 

Still a long ways to go, but if anything otr has very much shed it's previous image of being the scary big bad wolf neighborhood. Look on r/Cincinnati on Reddit and you will see it's one of the most desired places to live in Cincy, and one of the most popular areas to eat, drink and party. That alone is the biggest difference from where we are at today and from where we were 7 years ago.

 

 

16 hours ago, JYP said:

LQ actually did a good job with this in-depth profile of OTR in 2001. Worth watching at least the first ten minutes or so:

 

I've read lots of stuff on Buddy Gray but was too young to remember much about pre riots OTR besides that it was bad.  Those ReStoc people were absolutely terrible for the community.  

Edited November 30, 20186 yr by Cincy513

A lot of those ReStoc people are now part of OTR Community Housing.  While the re-branded organization isn't as bad as it was, many of the same attitudes and behaviors exist in the organization.  Many of their employees/supporters were the ones protesting at the re-opening of Washington Park.

9 hours ago, troeros said:

 

Yes, Vine in 2012 is nothing like what it is today. Even in 2012 it still felt like walking around otr was somewhat of an edgy thing to do. It was still in the shadow of it's crime ridden past. 

 

The Sheriff's Patrols in 2006 put an end to the collusion between Cincinnati Police and area drug dealers in Over-the-Rhine.  Si Leis ordered the temporary patrols with the aim to then end them and put pressure on the county to pass his jail tax.  Not only did the jail tax not pass, the crime never returned to pre-patrol levels.  The patrols lasted long enough for activity to move to other neighborhoods where it has since kept a relatively low profile due to drug activity switching to cell phones. 

 

Nobody was willing to say out loud what was so glaringly obvious -- Cincinnati Police officers were individually and as a group colluding with drug dealers.  They acted like it was impossible for crime to be reigned in, but then the Sheriff came in and ended it in a week. 

 

Buddy Gray, et al., loved the chaos.  They needed the chaos.  It kept them in the news.  They were all from rich families and being in the news meant they got to dominate dinner conversation at their family get-togethers. 

 

 

 

That video was really interesting, and as person who was growing up around that time (I was 13 when the riots happened) I only got bits of pieces of the story filtered through my parent's lens of the world. I never knew some of those places like Empire Theater even existed. I feel like that piece shows why the gentrification argument is so difficult, because the alternative is stagnation at best or decay at worst. 

 

I love the reporter talking about "tourists" coming to OTR with a tone of disbelief, and now here we are talking about a 26,000 seat stadium next to a revitalized Music Hall, in front of a re-imagined Washington Park, near an booming Vine Street commercial corridor etc. etc. I too get pessimistic about the pace of development compared to cities like Columbus and Nashville, but watching that video really does help put it into perspective. 

1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

That video was really interesting, and as person who was growing up around that time (I was 13 when the riots happened) I only got bits of pieces of the story filtered through my parent's lens of the world. I never knew some of those places like Empire Theater even existed. I feel like that piece shows why the gentrification argument is so difficult, because the alternative is stagnation at best or decay at worst. 

 

I love the reporter talking about "tourists" coming to OTR with a tone of disbelief, and now here we are talking about a 26,000 seat stadium next to a revitalized Music Hall, in front of a re-imagined Washington Park, near an booming Vine Street commercial corridor etc. etc. I too get pessimistic about the pace of development compared to cities like Columbus and Nashville, but watching that video really does help put it into perspective. 

 

That perspective can be somewhat misleading since Nashville and Columbus don't really have large urban neighborhoods like OTR. 

 

Funny enough, walking around the old town of Havana City center sort of reminded me of otr. Lots of abandoned buildings being revitalized and repurposed again.

.

Columbus has much more 19th century and prewar stuff than Nashville. 

 

Look up historic photos of the Tennessee State House and you can see everything Nashville tore down for urban renewal.  It was a significant loss but about a square mile of single-family detached homes, not row homes or row buildings 

Question...if Hamilton County was to build a 500 parking space gagrage on one of the larger Findley market parking lots (which I'm assuming would be the area for it, if they choose that route), would this be equivalent to the parking garage structure on sycamore street where it's elevated versus underground?

 

Ive always envisioned for that Findley market parking lot for a dense structure that would be a continuation of the market. I really hope it won't be a massive parking garage with 0 ground floor retail/units for residents. 

Edited November 30, 20186 yr by troeros

If they narrow Liberty St., this triangular lot could be make into a parking garage with a  development above it, especially if an underground garage is permitted to extend under the street. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1129641,-84.5203772,103m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

 

Also, I'm sure that Sam Adams has contemplated developing their employee parking lot:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.113643,-84.5221962,206m/data=!3m1!1e3

Edited November 30, 20186 yr by jmecklenborg

On 11/30/2018 at 6:49 PM, jmecklenborg said:

If they narrow Liberty St., this triangular lot could be make into a parking garage with a  development above it, especially if an underground garage is permitted to extend under the street. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1129641,-84.5203772,103m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

 

Also, I'm sure that Sam Adams has contemplated developing their employee parking lot:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.113643,-84.5221962,206m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Is there any precedent for building a garage underneath an existing street in Cincinnati? That seems like it'd be exorbitantly expensive. But I like the idea if somebody is willing to pay for it!

 

I also like the idea of redeveloping the parking lot in front of Sam Adams. And if done in conjunction with Liberty Street improvements and the redeveloped Ballet site, I hope they "straighten" out Liberty. I hate the curve in Liberty between Central Ave and Central Parkway. 

27 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

 

Is there any precedent for building a garage underneath an existing street in Cincinnati? That seems like it'd be exorbitantly expensive. But I like the idea if somebody is willing to pay for it!

 

I also like the idea of redeveloping the parking lot in front of Sam Adams. And if done in conjunction with Liberty Street improvements and the redeveloped Ballet site, I hope they "straighten" out Liberty. I hate the curve in Liberty between Central Ave and Central Parkway. 

 

I believe part of Fountain Square garage extends under 5th street to the US Bank building.

Yes, the Fountain Square garage was built under the former 5th St. esplanade and abuts the foundation of the Westin Hotel.  So it therefore blocks a cut-and-cover subway under 5th St., which is the ideal east/west subway street because of the 100ft width between Vine St. and Main St. 

 

When the subway was planned in the 1910s, there was at least one sketch made for an elaborate multitrack station for rapid transit and interurban trains beneath Fountain and Government Squares, a length of just under 1,000 feet.  But it would have been horrendously expensive as compared to the cost of building a similar facility under Central Parkway. 

 

How seating at FC Cincinnati's new stadium will compare with Nippert

 

 

FC Cincinnati’s supporters groups are going to have a lot more seats in the Bailey and premium seats will be more plentiful when the team moves into its new stadium in a little more than two years.

 

Those are among the details the club revealed last week when it filed stadium development plans with city of Cincinnati officials. Those plans included a breakdown of seating categories for the new stadium.

 

Preliminary plans call for 3,100 seats in the Bailey supporters’ section behind the north goal in the new stadium. That’s nearly double the 1,700 seats in the Bailey at the team’s current Nippert Stadium home on the University of Cincinnati's campus, Jeff Smith, FC Cincinnati’s vice president of ticket sales and service, told me. 

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/12/03/exclusive-how-seating-at-fc-cincinnatis-new.html

I sold the lots I owned north of the stadium this morning.  The transaction hasn't been recorded yet, but I the buyer is an LLC affiliated with the company that built The Radius at The Banks.  so expect something big to go up between John & Central and between Wade and Liberty. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1127334,-84.5234536,173m/data=!3m1!1e3

48 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

I sold the lots I owned north of the stadium this morning.  The transaction hasn't been recorded yet, but I the buyer is an LLC affiliated with the company that built The Radius at The Banks.  so expect something big to go up between John & Central and between Wade and Liberty. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1127334,-84.5234536,173m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

This is most likely different than the future development phase that was outlined along central parkway correct?

^Yes.  This is completely separate and in addition to whatever the team develops itself.  So we're going to see a pretty intense cluster of development from John St. east to Central Parkway, and then south. 

 

That's why I'd be a little worried for Ollie's Trolley and I expect that Sam Adams has explored developing its employee parking lot on the north side of Liberty between Central Parkway and Central Ave. 

I swiped this link  from Jake's post about the FCC stadium but before everything there gets redeveloped and even the streets disappear I wanted to share a weird fact about a house that used to be at John Street and Central. For those who have read Devil in the White City, this is where the infamous serial killer H.H Holmes briefly stayed on his run from the law and where he my have attempted to burn the body of one of his victims. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1142058,-84.5237588,172m/data=!3m1!1e3.

https://www.cincinnatimagazine.com/citywiseblog/the-devil-in-the-queen-city/

Weird I know but i like these little links to bigger events. Much like all the history that came up about the State Theater recently. I had no idea such large acts played there and some within days of each other. Not much there now in comparison but that little block was quite alive in it's day

 

 

4 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

^Yes.  This is completely separate and in addition to whatever the team develops itself.  So we're going to see a pretty intense cluster of development from John St. east to Central Parkway, and then south. 

 

That's why I'd be a little worried for Ollie's Trolley and I expect that Sam Adams has explored developing its employee parking lot on the north side of Liberty between Central Parkway and Central Ave. 

 

Interesting. Sounds like the vision could be something equivalent with the banks and the stadiums surrounding it? Perhaps creating a west end zone with with a block of retail/residential. 

 

^Frankly it's a waste of the parking garages and restaurants/entertainment that already exist at The Banks.  The the max potential attendance of an MLS season in a 25,000 seat stadium is much lower than The Bengals, despite 2x as many games, and a fraction of the annual attendance at Great American, even when The Reds finish in last place like they did this year. 

 

So if The Banks struggles with 1.5 million fans from baseball, another 500,000 from football, and a few hundred thousand from events at US Bank, there is little hope for entertainment relying on the soccer team in the West End.  That's why I got rid of my land. 

 

But an additional 400,000 people coming down to the riverfront for 20~ home soccer games would have been a significant boon for The Banks.  It would have helped fill in those Saturdays and Wednesdays from April through September when The Reds are out of town.   And days when both play would have had an impact similar to a Bengals home game. 

 

When I was driving for Uber 2014-2016, there was simply no comparing the traffic from a 65,000 game at Paul Brown as compared to a typical 25,000 game at Great American.  It was total gridlock for 45 minutes to an hour after a Bengals game versus having to wait through 2-3 red lights at some point.  25,000 people coming out of UDF Field won't generate anything near the impact that people imagine. 

 

Edited December 7, 20186 yr by jmecklenborg

22 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

^Frankly it's a waste of the parking garages and restaurants/entertainment that already exist at The Banks.  The the max potential attendance of an MLS season in a 25,000 seat stadium is much lower than The Bengals, despite 2x as many games, and a fraction of the annual attendance at Great American, even when The Reds finish in last place like they did this year. 

 

So if The Banks struggles with 1.5 million fans from baseball, another 500,000 from football, and a few hundred thousand from events at US Bank, there is little hope for entertainment relying on the soccer team in the West End.  That's why I got rid of my land. 

 

But an additional 400,000 people coming down to the riverfront for 20~ home soccer games would have been a significant boon for The Banks.  It would have helped fill in those Saturdays and Wednesdays from April through September when The Reds are out of town.   And days when both play would have had an impact similar to a Bengals home game. 

 

When I was driving for Uber 2014-2016, there was simply no comparing the traffic from a 65,000 game at Paul Brown as compared to a typical 25,000 game at Great American.  It was total gridlock for 45 minutes to an hour after a Bengals game versus having to wait through 2-3 red lights at some point.  25,000 people coming out of UDF Field won't generate anything near the impact that people imagine. 

 

 

I would argue that the banks, especially during the summer it is quite hopping. The streets were crowded, the bars were packed. The atmosphere was quite strong. It definitely struggles in the winter time and probably had alot to do with lack of sport activities. 

 

I feel like alot of people flock to otr because its entertainment package is more dense. Main Street alone offers roughly 15 bars at this point, otr alone probably has 30-35 bars. The banks has like what? 4 bars? 1 live music venue bar and club with Galla Park. 

 

It's just not the same experience honestly.

The banks just needs to keep moving along with development, especially while the economy is good.  Get the music venue built.  Get another hotel built.  Add more office space.  Add more residential with some condo's or townhomes mixed in.  It's only half built out right now so obviously it doesn't feel like a full neighborhood.  The steering committee is wasting time trying to find a new "master developer" while all the neighborhoods around it (OTR, Covington, Newport, West End) are building or redeveloping new places.  The fact that everything at the banks has to get approval by the committee, city and county before anything can be built has completely hampered development.  

7 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

^Frankly it's a waste of the parking garages and restaurants/entertainment that already exist at The Banks.  The the max potential attendance of an MLS season in a 25,000 seat stadium is much lower than The Bengals, despite 2x as many games, and a fraction of the annual attendance at Great American, even when The Reds finish in last place like they did this year. 

 

So if The Banks struggles with 1.5 million fans from baseball, another 500,000 from football, and a few hundred thousand from events at US Bank, there is little hope for entertainment relying on the soccer team in the West End.  That's why I got rid of my land. 

 

But an additional 400,000 people coming down to the riverfront for 20~ home soccer games would have been a significant boon for The Banks.  It would have helped fill in those Saturdays and Wednesdays from April through September when The Reds are out of town.   And days when both play would have had an impact similar to a Bengals home game. 

 

When I was driving for Uber 2014-2016, there was simply no comparing the traffic from a 65,000 game at Paul Brown as compared to a typical 25,000 game at Great American.  It was total gridlock for 45 minutes to an hour after a Bengals game versus having to wait through 2-3 red lights at some point.  25,000 people coming out of UDF Field won't generate anything near the impact that people imagine. 

 

But people already frequent OTR before this stadium is even built.  More people live, visit, shop, eat and drink in OTR already then at the banks.  The banks has the built in crowds of the Reds and Bengals and outside of those days they do get a solid to good crowd on weekends depending on the season.  But their non gameday crowds are nothing compared to how many people are out in OTR.  I don't think building a banks sized development around the new FCC stadium would be smart, but I also don't think that's going to happen.  The area could certainly support a couple new bars, restaurants and especially a hotel or two.  Considering north of Liberty still hasn't really been developed OTR has an even higher tourism ceiling then it already has.  

8 hours ago, troeros said:

 

Interesting. Sounds like the vision could be something equivalent with the banks and the stadiums surrounding it? Perhaps creating a west end zone with with a block of retail/residential. 

 

 

I worry that we're going to end up with a random hodgepodge of parking structures around the FCC stadium and that's it's going to be "urban in name only".

 

 

^Yeah I have no faith in these people.  Plus, they're receiving tens of millions in public funds but have lied to the public throughout this process about what their actual plans are.  The city and county commitments should have been contingent upon firm plans for the stadium.  Instead, they keep playing games. 

^^^^ THIS.

 

1 hour ago, taestell said:

 

I worry that we're going to end up with a random hodgepodge of parking structures around the FCC stadium and that's it's going to be "urban in name only".

 

 

Yeah, but it's also true that it might make little sense to put a huge parking structure right at the FCC site, which will be activated 30 dates/year. They stated that one of the things they're looking at is a smaller parking structure first near Findlay. Given the way the Findlay node is progressing, I think that's a wiser use of county money for parking, compared to one large facility at FCC that would likely see lower use overall.

I drove by this morning and pile driving has begun for the actual stadium. 

The details really, really, really matter here, and so far we've seen virtually nothing. It would be great if they could replace the old Town Center garage with a new one that has ground floor retail and maybe another use (residential or office) above. The county could coordinate with the developer of Liberty & Elm to gracefully integrate a public garage into that development. There are many possibilities but I have little faith at this point that this is going to be executed properly.

Not to mention, there was a rumor going around that the county was going to build the new garage near Findlay Market, so Berding himself showed up at the Hamilton County Commission meeting to speak during the public comment period and demand that the new garage be built directly next to the stadium. So we went through all of this drama over the fact that they claimed to want an "urban stadium" and the team ownership still doesn't seem to understand what that means. People might have to park in a different part of the neighborhood and walk a few blocks to the stadium. That's the whole point!

Is the town center garage privately owned?  Or does the city already own it?  They really need to get that torn down, build a new bigger garage in it's place and have retail/residential built into it.  

Someone needs to get the FCC people to meet with the folks developing the new Crew stadium, or take them up to Little Caesars Arena in Detroit to show how to somwhat-properly integrate a stadium into a mixed-use project.

Edited December 7, 20186 yr by BigDipper 80

Speaking of land swaps, it would make a lot of sense to turn the unfinished center section of City West into a park and to develop Laurel Playground:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.112293,-84.5250836,396m/data=!3m1!1e3

 

Get rid of the traffic circle and the streets north of it.  Connect Pinecone Ln. to Liberty and develop most of the area north of Wade. 

4 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

Is the town center garage privately owned?  Or does the city already own it?  They really need to get that torn down, build a new bigger garage in it's place and have retail/residential built into it.  

 

Yes I'm curious about that garage as well. I was under the impression that it was in poor condition so I'm confused why nothing is being mentioned about that garage in regards to a replacement??

^Parking garages have a tendency to be in "poor condition" when big public money is floating around. 

 

The Riverfront Stadium parking garage was found to suddenly be in "poor condition" when talk of the new stadiums started.  A city-owned garage at the SW corner of Race & 6th suddenly failed an inspection when Nordstrom wanted to come to town in 1999.   

The Town Center garage is owned by the city. The city has been trying for many years to tear it down and replace it, even before the West End FCC stadium location was selected. However the county has committed to build the new garage, not the city.

Naming rights prediction: either Sam Adams or Rhinegeist.  I have a suspicion that Brewdog is going to try to buy the rights to Columbus's new stadium, and Rhinegeist is obviously a competitor of theirs, and seeking greater national exposure. 

 

There is already a Great American Insurance stadium in this stadium, and its unclear how much value would be gained by UDF buying the rights, since they are a regional chain. 

I don't think those breweries have the capital to spend what it would take to get their name on a stadium.  I'm also not even sure if the MLS would allow a brewery.  I would guess it will be one of the fortune 5oo companies in town that puts their name on it.  Could see P&G, Kroger or 5/3 going for it.