December 4, 20204 yr Dev I do get your point and agree the city and the team should do as much and possible to make sure all groups and incomes have a fair place in a prosperous OTR future. I also think the Bengals stadium deal has created a toxic environment for anything large scale and or sports related to get done with any use whatsoever of public dollars. I’m already exhausted by the thought of a new Bengals lease and renovation of Paul Brown Stadium, what a circus that may turn out to be. You say “There are other options than giving carrots to developers to redevelop massive sections of communities” that may be true in some instances but I really believe it doesn’t apply to FC Cincinnati’s Stadium project, they did a pretty good job in my opinion.
December 4, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, 646empire said: So you actually believe that the 33 mil the city put up for infrastructure vs. the 150 million dollar expansion fee and the 250 million for the stadium the team put up isn’t a decent deal? The revenue over the coming decades from a new MLS team and surrounding development plus the ticket and restaurant and bar receipts over the next 20 years+ isnt going to be worth it? I'm not trying to say that the stadium is or is not worth it on its own, I'm saying that there are other options that could revitalize that community without pushing people out of it. Finishing City West, placing road diets on Linn, Ezzard Charles, Liberty and Central come to mind first and would not cost $33 million.
December 4, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, 646empire said: Dev I do get your point and agree the city and the team should do as much and possible to make sure all groups and incomes have a fair place in a prosperous OTR future. I also think the Bengals stadium deal has created a toxic environment for anything large scale and or sports related to get done with any use whatsoever of public dollars. I’m already exhausted by the thought of a new Bengals lease and renovation of Paul Brown Stadium, what a circus that may turn out to be. You say “There are other options than giving carrots to developers to redevelop massive sections of communities” that may be true in some instances but I really believe it doesn’t apply to FC Cincinnati’s Stadium project, they did a pretty good job in my opinion. Yes, the FCC deal is light years ahead of PBS stadium deal and the organization is likewise, much, much better at community engagement. I just don't think we should get good things at the expense of others if we can help it.
December 5, 20204 yr 20 hours ago, Dev said: I'm not trying to say that the stadium is or is not worth it on its own, I'm saying that there are other options that could revitalize that community without pushing people out of it. Finishing City West, placing road diets on Linn, Ezzard Charles, Liberty and Central come to mind first and would not cost $33 million. I guess we could have just waited for someone else who wanted to spend $300 million in the West End. Who/when was the last private developer that showed any interest in doing something in that neighborhood? It’s been nothing but publicly funded projects there for 50 years. 20 hours ago, Dev said: Yes, the FCC deal is light years ahead of PBS stadium deal and the organization is likewise, much, much better at community engagement. I just don't think we should get good things at the expense of others if we can help it. Let me know when that actually happens. If you’re trying to develop a struggling inner city neighborhood, there’s no way you can prevent every single renter from getting priced out. You want the neighborhood to get nicer, but as it gets nicer the average rent will go up. The only way to prevent people from getting priced out is to build more affordable housing. That’s exactly what the team is putting money towards.
December 5, 20204 yr 23 hours ago, 646empire said: So you actually believe that the 33 mil the city put up for infrastructure vs. the 150 million dollar expansion fee and the 250 million for the stadium the team put up isn’t a decent deal? The revenue over the coming decades from a new MLS team and surrounding development plus the ticket and restaurant and bar receipts over the next 20 years+ isnt going to be worth it? Would UC Football create more spillover economic benefit if both teams shared the new soccer stadium instead of Nippert? Actually less since the new stadium is smaller than Nippert.
December 5, 20204 yr 22 hours ago, Dev said: I'm not trying to say that the stadium is or is not worth it on its own, I'm saying that there are other options that could revitalize that community without pushing people out of it. Finishing City West, placing road diets on Linn, Ezzard Charles, Liberty and Central come to mind first and would not cost $33 million. Problem is, the stadium was used as an excuse to water down the Liberty St. road diet.
December 5, 20204 yr 4 minutes ago, GCrites80s said: Problem is, the stadium was used as an excuse to water down the Liberty St. road diet. They also doubled-down on the water pipe in the subway. The water that will fill the stadium's toilets will have traveled through the never-used subway and it's 1950s-era water main. I bought land in that area in 2017 on the hope that the subway station under Liberty St. would be activated one day. Instead, a parking garage is being built on the land.
December 6, 20204 yr 3 hours ago, Cincy513 said: I guess we could have just waited for someone else who wanted to spend $300 million in the West End. Who/when was the last private developer that showed any interest in doing something in that neighborhood? It’s been nothing but publicly funded projects there for 50 years. This is the viewpoint I am specifically pushing against. You are trying to lure in a developer, I am arguing we should be finding ways to lure in residents instead. They sound similar but are not. 3 hours ago, Cincy513 said: Let me know when that actually happens. If you’re trying to develop a struggling inner city neighborhood, there’s no way you can prevent every single renter from getting priced out. You want the neighborhood to get nicer, but as it gets nicer the average rent will go up. I do not think that is inherently true. Gentrification is not a guarantee that people will get displaced. I am arguing that multiple, small scale improvements will encourage new people to enter a real estate market, slowly, over time, which will make it easier for the existing residents to absorb the changes. The sugar in an apple isn't going to screw with your body, but it will with a candy bar. 3 hours ago, Cincy513 said: The only way to prevent people from getting priced out is to build more affordable housing. That’s exactly what the team is putting money towards. In the current model, the affordable housing comes either during or after the big neighborhood-changing development, not before. So people get displaced with the development because they have to leave for the new construction or get priced out. By the time the affordable housing is complete, the original residents have already moved somewhere else and are not likely to be the ones returning.
December 6, 20204 yr this city should be happy as hell they get a new stadium, new development, and a concerned investor that wants to build affordable housing. the stadium isn't complete and major changes are happening around the area. Until someone comes up with a new way of getting people from a to b and back again, we will have cars, and buses, and big trucks and traffic problems and streets where pedestrians have to walk. Get used to it. Be against it and make all the points you want. If you build affordable housing downtown then that will alleviate some traffic. Its the midwest people will still have cars. If you build expensive housing those people will have two cars. This silly complaining will not change a thing. It sort of sounds like a particular political party who will not stop complaining about non existent fraud and scandal. Reminds me of all the digs on about the streetcar. It was said, a street car would not bring investment to over the rhine. wrong. Oh, and I see pedestrians cross every street in our city. Plus a saw a man get hit by a car trying to cross I75. So, don't try pedestri-ing I75.
December 6, 20204 yr 20 hours ago, jmecklenborg said: Would UC Football create more spillover economic benefit if both teams shared the new soccer stadium instead of Nippert? Actually less since the new stadium is smaller than Nippert. No offense but I’m not sure how your question applies to the current discussion. Plus I actually think your wrong. UC’s football games or FC Cincinnati’s matches for that matter have little impact on economic development uptown. Clifton is already and has forever been a highly populated super center of the city, with 10s of thousands of students and the giant hospitals near by. The West End is a different planet. So I would argue UC (in a make believe world) moving its games to a new shared venue in a run down under underutilized section of the city would be much more impactful than both teams remaining at Nippert, regardless if the new stadium is slightly smaller. Edited December 6, 20204 yr by 646empire
December 6, 20204 yr ^It would be the same way if FC Cincinnati chose the Oakley/Hyde Park site, those areas are already well developed and affluent. So naturally the stadium would at that location have less of an impact on the city and that neighborhood than if they built the stadium in an underdeveloped area like the West-End which needs all the spark it can get. The upside of a West-End/OTR Renaissance is far more lucrative to the city than a boost to Oakley or Clifton.
December 6, 20204 yr ^Or maybe stadiums aren't economic drivers, especially single-team stadiums. A super-busy arena like Staples center or Madison Square Garden doesn't even have much around it that can be attributed entirely to the arena. And property owners will simply charge higher rent for a bar or restaurant space if an arena is built nearby, so that money disappears to a coastal home with an expensive boat tied up to its dock.
December 6, 20204 yr 40 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said: ^Or maybe stadiums aren't economic drivers, especially single-team stadiums. A super-busy arena like Staples center or Madison Square Garden doesn't even have much around it that can be attributed entirely to the arena. And property owners will simply charge higher rent for a bar or restaurant space if an arena is built nearby, so that money disappears to a coastal home with an expensive boat tied up to its dock. New York and LA are extreme examples tho, particularly MSG which is centrally located in the epicenter of Manhattan and sits on top of a major transit hub (Penn Station). A location such as that one in americas biggest city by no means needs a sporting venue to thrive. Cincinnati’s OTR/WestEnd tho has been dying for a long time but has recently been turning the corner. Some of this is psychological, The stadium creates momentum and confidence among potential investors and developers that the neighborhood has a bright future and represents longevity for their investments. Business owners and residents naturally want to be in an area that feels like it’s on “the come up”. With everything that’s been happening in that area and now bolstered by this giant investment of a MLS team and new stadium it will have a huge impact. Edited December 6, 20204 yr by 646empire
December 7, 20204 yr The Arena District turned out pretty well. Of course it has the ballpark now and soon the soccer stadium.
December 7, 20204 yr 16 hours ago, jmecklenborg said: ^Or maybe stadiums aren't economic drivers, especially single-team stadiums. A super-busy arena like Staples center or Madison Square Garden doesn't even have much around it that can be attributed entirely to the arena. And property owners will simply charge higher rent for a bar or restaurant space if an arena is built nearby, so that money disappears to a coastal home with an expensive boat tied up to its dock. Not arguing for or against the public stadium financing but this is a weak economic analysis. There are clearly many economic benefits that will come from the stadium, though it’s fair to debate whether they are worth the cost. OTR restaurant and bar owners- and their staff- will benefit from 25,000 extra people coming to the neighborhood, even if it’s just 20 or so nights a year. Hotels will benefit from increased demand during the season. Construction workers will benefit from the additional jobs created by the stadium and surrounding developments. And yes nearby developers and land owners- many of whom are actually locally based and all of whom will pay local property taxes (once those sweet abatements run dry)- will also benefit from the increased demand in their neighborhood because of the shiny new amenity. And of course all of this will produce tax revenues for the city as well. So again not saying I’m for or against the deal struck by the city but it’s way more nuanced than you’re making it out to be.
December 7, 20204 yr Is there more recent analysis on the CBA signed by the City and FCC since this? https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/i-team/analysis-how-community-benefits-agreement-between-fcc-west-end-compares-to-other-mls-teams I think most of my sarcasm/what took the joy out of my support for FCC was the less than ideal CBA process which has become a repetitive story in Cincinnati. It was not long ago that Yvette Simpson stood up for community benefits in Avondale and got the villain edit from Jason Williams' political reality TV show of a column. If FCC and The West End had a good faith CBA, I would not be nearly as cynical about the team... I might have even renewed my season tickets.
December 7, 20204 yr 12 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said: Is there more recent analysis on the CBA signed by the City and FCC since this? https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/i-team/analysis-how-community-benefits-agreement-between-fcc-west-end-compares-to-other-mls-teams I think most of my sarcasm/what took the joy out of my support for FCC was the less than ideal CBA process which has become a repetitive story in Cincinnati. It was not long ago that Yvette Simpson stood up for community benefits in Avondale and got the villain edit from Jason Williams' political reality TV show of a column. If FCC and The West End had a good faith CBA, I would not be nearly as cynical about the team... I might have even renewed my season tickets. Yep. I totally agree with you on that. I think there are a lot of issues with the way the CBA was done. And I understand some of the reasoning on all sides. It's tough. 1) The city (both City Hall and just the general population) has very little experience with CBAs. There has never been a big project like this that reached a CBA to my understanding. So the unknowns allowed this to be exploited by multiple parties. 2) The community council was definitely unprepared to take on something like this. I've come to see some actors as always obstructing, and never working collaboratively. The Homeless Coalition is one prime example of this. They can get dozens of their supporters in the neighborhood to become members to kill any good deal reached, regardless of what it is. 3) The team needed to get this done ASAP. They saw this as more of an obstacle than anything else, which is really unfortunate. But the longer this process drew out, the more organized the opposition could become to kill the CBA, and the project. There are very few easy answers in this. The thing I have the biggest grievance with is the way that the team through Berding said "we aren't going to displace anyone", and then months later they bought the apartment buildings to the north and directly displaced people.
December 11, 20204 yr Have any renderings been released for Central Parkway yet? I would imagine they will need to do some reconfiguration of the street to support the stadium, and hopefully some streetscaping as well. And maybe remove the abandoned skywalk column while they're at it...
December 11, 20204 yr Yeah hopefully there is some greenscape introduced because with the grey steel, grey concrete steps, grey CMU walls etc. it really needs some color and life. I think at night with the LEDs lit up it will look great, but during the day its going to need some help.
December 11, 20204 yr Hopefully FCC's stadium is a lot more like GABP and not like PBS in terms of being very easy to tell who plays there. The Bengals have barely any team branding outside the stadium while the Reds add something new almost every year.
December 11, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, Cincy513 said: Hopefully FCC's stadium is a lot more like GABP and not like PBS in terms of being very easy to tell who plays there. The Bengals have barely any team branding outside the stadium while the Reds add something new almost every year. Paul Brown Stadium is named for the founder and coach of two NFL teams and one of the central figures in the history of the game. It is one of the few venues in all of pro sports that is still named after something or somebody real. For all of the armchair criticism of the supposedly greedy and incompetant Brown family, it is undeniable that they left tens of millions on the table by not selling the stadium's naming rights.
December 12, 20204 yr 2 hours ago, Cincy513 said: Hopefully FCC's stadium is a lot more like GABP and not like PBS in terms of being very easy to tell who plays there. The Bengals have barely any team branding outside the stadium while the Reds add something new almost every year. I mean, not to be a jerk, but the entire outside of the stadium will be a video advertisement for the team(s) ( assuming a NWSL team comes in)
December 12, 20204 yr 1 minute ago, JaceTheAce41 said: I mean, not to be a jerk, but the entire outside of the stadium will be a video advertisement for the team(s) ( assuming a NWSL team comes in) Funny, I was just thinking that. They are going to market this team for the next few years. Flags, Banners, didnt think of video but I bet you are right. I can't wait to see the light show.
December 12, 20204 yr 5 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said: I mean, not to be a jerk, but the entire outside of the stadium will be a video advertisement for the team(s) ( assuming a NWSL team comes in) And that video can only work at night. So for during the day they still need things like regular signage and monument boards. Some color as well since as mentioned it will be mostly grey looking when the suns up.
December 12, 20204 yr a putt putt style soccer course would brighten up the place. Past soccer greats defending the goals with colorful waterfalls, mountains, stadiums from around the world and windmills with gigantic feet.
December 12, 20204 yr 48 minutes ago, RJohnson said: a putt putt style soccer course would brighten up the place. Past soccer greats defending the goals with colorful waterfalls, mountains, stadiums from around the world and windmills with gigantic feet. Sponsored by Fly Emerites.
December 15, 20204 yr FCC Gets $16 Million from State of Ohio Other projects to get State funding in Cincinnati: Smale Riverfront Park, $1.7 million (is this for the music venue lawn?) Court Street Plaza, $1.5 million Cincinnati Zoo’s More Home to Roam capital project, $1.5 million Cincinnati Art Museum, $1.4 million West End Community Parking Garage, $1.25 million Baum-Taft House, $1 million Cincinnati Ballet Center, $1 million Cincinnati Playhouse in the Park, $1 million
December 16, 20204 yr They have started to put the grass down in the stadium. Exciting! No pics just watching the construction cam.
December 16, 20204 yr 6 minutes ago, 646empire said: They have started to put the grass down in the stadium. Exciting! No pics just watching the construction cam.
December 16, 20204 yr 8 minutes ago, DEPACincy said: Yesssssss!!! Looks sooo good. Populous did a fantastic job designing.
December 16, 20204 yr I have to admit, putting the political drama and loss of historic fabric aside, this is one gorgeous stadium and will undoubtedly be a future Cincinnati landmark.
December 16, 20204 yr A nice shot with the lights on. They're not at full game level yet but they look good. Edited December 16, 20204 yr by JaceTheAce41
January 5, 20214 yr The grass is down and the video board is online. The playing area and stands look to be complete and I'll try to get some photos of the exterior when I'm in town next week.
January 6, 20214 yr The team just posted this video of the grass installation with some nice drone shots of the stadium. The seats look really nice and I'm interested to see what sort of views of downtown you might get from inside the stadium once the LED fins are complete. This is by far the nicest looking of the three MLS stadiums opening up this year.
January 6, 20214 yr I think this stadium will be great to watch a match in, but the Central Parkway side is still leaving a lot to be desired. Concrete steps leading to a concrete plaza surrounded by concrete block walls... it's all very grey and brutal. I realize it's winter now, but the renderings show no trees, plants or color in the entrance plaza either. As you can see in the first picture, the fins provide very little visibility from straight on, though it may be different when they are lit up with LEDs. Outside of FCCs control is the cell phone tower/gravel lot next door (which has already been discussed) but I noticed today the Verizon tower across the street from the entrance as well. Hopefully these get relocated or replaced by smaller 5G towers and the lots can get redeveloped because they are both occupying important spots adjacent to the entrance.
January 6, 20214 yr FC ownerships plan is to turn the surrounding area into a higher end Banks type development.Big reason Meg Whitman bought into FC was for this reason.Ive heard 400-450 million for development around the stadium blocks.400 living units 200 room hotel type numbers community commercial place like 25k sq feet.5 year plans.
January 6, 20214 yr I like the stairs. I think it brings the entrance plaza closer to the street and connects it better. it is better IMO of a bunch of smaller entryways and catwalks.
January 6, 20214 yr These cell towers aren't even that tall, and there's several high buildings within just a few blocks that have these things called roofs to put them on. Do cities like Chicago have more enlightened regulations to that effect? The cell phone companies don't even take advantage of the few smokestacks we have left here.
January 7, 20214 yr 18 hours ago, jjakucyk said: These cell towers aren't even that tall, and there's several high buildings within just a few blocks that have these things called roofs to put them on. Do cities like Chicago have more enlightened regulations to that effect? The cell phone companies don't even take advantage of the few smokestacks we have left here. I think the cell towers and adjacent equipment/generator buildings are almost prefab kits and easy to install/maintain. If the land and property tax is cheap enough, that's what they'll default to. They also don't have to rely on any agreements with a third party, like they would if the equipment were on somebody else's roof, using their generator power, etc.
January 7, 20214 yr 19 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said: I like the stairs. I think it brings the entrance plaza closer to the street and connects it better. it is better IMO of a bunch of smaller entryways and catwalks. I agree for the most part and maybe they will end up better, but I just feel like the quality is lacking when compared to other citywide grand staircases like at Smale, UC or even Paul Brown, especially when it comes to making the area feel softer/greener and not so grey. Stone is expensive, I get it, and trees block visibility, but it can't just all be concrete.
January 7, 20214 yr Once we have fully transitioned to 5G, which relies on smaller towers dispersed throughout the city, those big towers will likely be decommissioned, especially if they can sell the land for a good profit. However this might not happen very soon — TMobile just shut down their 2G network at the end of 2020 (the last carrier to do so), 3G and 4G will be in use for many more years. The tower site on the west side of Central Parkway is relatively small but could easily be incorporated into a larger development wrapping the stadium, so I think the team would love to get their hands on that land. The tower side on the east side of Central Parkway is large and is a prime development opportunity. It's not near the stadium, but I can't wait until the tower near Rotherberg is removed.
January 7, 20214 yr Maybe we should wait until the construction is actually finished before commenting on how the area looks? It's literally still an active construction zone.
January 7, 20214 yr 1 hour ago, Ucgrad2015 said: What is the one at the corner of Central parkway and Odeon used for? That one is owned by Verizon. The one next to the stadium is owned by American Tower Corporation, which likely rents space to the other cell carriers.
January 20, 20214 yr One of the bigger FC Cincinnati supporters groups has picked their local bar. The March to match will start from Northern Row Brewing. https://www.thepridecincy.com/announcements/2021/1/19/our-march-starts-at-northern-row-west-end-stadium-pub-partner
January 21, 20214 yr 23 hours ago, JaceTheAce41 said: One of the bigger FC Cincinnati supporters groups has picked their local bar. The March to match will start from Northern Row Brewing. https://www.thepridecincy.com/announcements/2021/1/19/our-march-starts-at-northern-row-west-end-stadium-pub-partner Any decision yet on the route for the march? Somewhat tricky with the streetcar and since most of the north-south streets can't easily be shut down. Perhaps walking down Pleasant to Washington Park would make sense?
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