IMO, I think it's already a done deal.  Now it's just getting the final presentation ironed out with the community council.  Berding to attend Feb 22.

 

West End stadium for FC Cincinnati? Neighbors want a voice in the process

 

http://local12.com/news/local/west-end-stadium-for-fc-cincinnati-neighbors-want-a-voice-in-the-process

That seems like a pretty big deal considering how little Mallory and Berding got along during their time at City Hall

 

I shared the elevator up to the suites in Nippert with Mark Mallory at an FC game last year. The usher gave him directions and said something along the lines of his destination being the owner's suite.

I'm a little worried that they could throw Mallory under the bus.  Present a plan to him which is innocuous, which he then espouses as being "the plan", but then the actual plan is a gentrification buzz saw.  He then loses credibility with his base. 

I would expect that anything between the stadium and Central Parkway would be built out as market rate apartments with ground floor retail. Single family homes on the undeveloped City West lots would probably also be developed as market rate. However I can't imagine any of the CityWest affordable housing would be converted to market rate. So I don't really know how anyone could complain about "gentrification" in this deal. But of course, some people will.

The commercial district of Lynn St has been sitting mostly vacant since it was built.  If FC moving in helps to create businesses to open here then people can call it whatever they want.  Vacant buildings serve no good purpose to any resident of the West End regardless of the social status. 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1118857,-84.5276207,3a,38.1y,57.12h,97.77t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snvjMXEfVtDdId3VNM6xYZQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1111124,-84.5276554,3a,61.1y,100.07h,102.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s12ooK3pkhK7Ahol_PDwkaw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1081127,-84.5279499,3a,48.9y,76.32h,96.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJ5tE8xDdqDY4MM1gRDAKRA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Those are also all terrible storefronts. There are whole fences along most of the street and steps separating it from the rest of the sidewalk. Restaurants, cafes, and bars that have outdoor seating could work, but a regular retail store is incredibly disadvantaged because the developers made it look like they don't want you there.

^ It also doesn't help that Linn Street is super freaking wide, and when CityWest was built, there was no attempt to do a road diet or even a simple beautification.

I'm a little worried that they could throw Mallory under the bus.  Present a plan to him which is innocuous, which he then espouses as being "the plan", but then the actual plan is a gentrification buzz saw.  He then loses credibility with his base. 

 

But what is he going to run for? He already was a state rep, already did mayor, I don't see him going for Chabot's seat anytime soon and don't see him on county commission?

But what is he going to run for? He already was a state rep, already did mayor, I don't see him going for Chabot's seat anytime soon and don't see him on county commission?

 

Yeah I'm not aware of anything he is running for right now, but it would be a way to tarnish him forever. 

 

FC tip-toeing closer to saying Stargell is the place:

https://www.wcpo.com/sports/fc-cincinnati/berding-says-its-possible-fc-cincinnati-will-build-on-stargel-stadium-site

 

We have to reserve judgement until a site plan appears, but I see almost no possibility for displacement of long-time residents, assuming that the vacant CMHA lots will become new homes for those who will have theirs bulldozed along John St. 

 

As for gentrification, a huge number of West End residents live in CMHA housing that cannot be influenced by the free market.  The areas that could be gentrified aren't close to the stadium, namely everything north of Liberty St. and north to Brighton.  It's not a matter of if but when.  The stadium might push redevelopment into that area 5 years earlier than it would have otherwise, but there's simply no question that OTR will be mostly built-out by 2025 and the West End is the closest area where a similar pattern could continue. 

Well I'm glad that CMHA doesn't buy into the anti-gentrification mania and is willing to sell off unneeded parcels in order to raise money to fulfill their organization's mission. I remember when CHMA was talking about selling off its former office on Central Parkway, many people were protesting and saying that affordable housing should be built at that site. It makes much more sense to sell that land at market rate and pump that money back into the organization.

But what is he going to run for? He already was a state rep, already did mayor, I don't see him going for Chabot's seat anytime soon and don't see him on county commission?

 

Yeah I'm not aware of anything he is running for right now, but it would be a way to tarnish him forever. 

 

FC tip-toeing closer to saying Stargell is the place:

https://www.wcpo.com/sports/fc-cincinnati/berding-says-its-possible-fc-cincinnati-will-build-on-stargel-stadium-site

 

We have to reserve judgement until a site plan appears, but I see almost no possibility for displacement of long-time residents, assuming that the vacant CMHA lots will become new homes for those who will have theirs bulldozed along John St. 

 

As for gentrification, a huge number of West End residents live in CMHA housing that cannot be influenced by the free market.  The areas that could be gentrified aren't close to the stadium, namely everything north of Liberty St. and north to Brighton.  It's not a matter of if but when.  The stadium might push redevelopment into that area 5 years earlier than it would have otherwise, but there's simply no question that OTR will be mostly built-out by 2025 and the West End is the closest area where a similar pattern could continue. 

 

Why would anything on John St need to be knocked down?  It seems like they want to take the Stargel site and everything east of it to Central Pkwy.  Nothing on the west side of John St. would need to be touched as they exist right now across the street from Stargel.

^youre right, nothing west of John Street would need to be touched. I think Jake is trolling us a little bit because he knows this thought upsets some of us.

I think FCC would prefer to acquire the properties east of Stargel Stadium, but I would not be surprised at all if they had a Plan B that included the demolition of some affordable housing.

OK sorry as I am sure this has been discussed ad naseum, when you say East of Stargel, are you pointing towards these buildings:

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1113648,-84.5221285,3a,75y,146.27h,91.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP7-cMvhusBIy8--0R_DSRg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

Then, up to and abutting Central Parkway??  Or not the buildings fronting Central Parkway??

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1116679,-84.5207576,3a,75y,228.51h,86.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRAIjGlUMiD8pP32OmwwD3A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Also, can any architects comment on what would be involved in chopping down some but not all of these strips of homes?  What happens to the former interior wall that would now be an exterior wall? 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1111619,-84.523786,3a,75y,217.9h,85.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbqxH_t4S4wyFspFLwVxEMw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Also, can any architects comment on what would be involved in chopping down some but not all of these strips of homes?  What happens to the former interior wall that would now be an exterior wall? 

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1111619,-84.523786,3a,75y,217.9h,85.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbqxH_t4S4wyFspFLwVxEMw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I'm not an architect... but I'm pretty sure you just would have to create a new exterior treatment (insulation, cladding, roof flashing, etc.). Structurally, it wouldn't require major modifications to the rest of the other structures.

 

That being said... I seriously doubt FCC is looking at building a stadium that crosses John St. The geometry and the politics of it just don't make sense. We'll have to wait and see, but FCC hasn't requested purchase options on those properties from CMHA, and I doubt they will.

^Property owners between Central and Central could hold out and hold out. FC can get this land by simply buying the board a steak dinner.  They could conceivably demolish and rebuild these homes for WAY CHEAPER than buying the land and buildings on the east side of Central Ave. 

 

*you have to love that discussions of this project is confused by ridiculous parallel configuration of Central Ave. and Central Parkway. 

** speaking of which, Central Parkway is about 10-15 feet higher than Central Ave.  This means that if a stadium is built on or close to Central Parkway, a sidewalk entrance could be on the upper deck level. 

I gave this another shot with an east-west orientation. For the sake of sunlight and the overall view of the city, I think the stadium would more likely be built on a north-south axis but here's my very terrible photoshop job anyway.

 

^ that would be some unnecessary demo of buildings along Central Parkway in the blue block there (if that’s what youre trying to show.) I don’t think they would or should tear down the big historic converted warehouse at 1401 Central Parkway, and mentioned upthread the next building  to the north has just been renovated into offices.

I'm all for keeping the old warehouse. Just trying to do a rough mock-up of what the site might look like.

[/url]

 

I made a diagram comparing two potential sites in the West End to list some pros and cons of each.

 

The conventional wisdom that I'm seeing in the press is that the stadium will go in the blue box. Furthermore the club might purchase the Citirama site on the SW corner of Ezzard Charles and John to rebuild Stargel Stadium for CPS.

 

Pros:

-Large site (600x700)

-Close to Streetcar stops/OTR with good access from 14th, 15th, Wade, Liberty

-Potential less impact to residential areas.  Only borders a residential area to the west with houses not facing stadium.  Borders Taft HS to the south.  On the east border Central Parkway could develop with denser apartments and commercial spaces.  To the north infill could happen on empty lots in between the handful of historic buildings that have survived. 

-Potentially interesting trivia for the Lindners: Derrick Turnbow Ave. would have the Carl Lindner YMCA at one end and the FCC stadium at the other

 

Cons:

-More complicated land acquisition

-Possibly would have to rebuild Stargel Stadium- could cost millions

-Lose 4 historic buildings

-Need to relocate 3 businesses in the historic buildings, and possibly the Jehovahs witnesses

-Disruption to street grid for Central Ave., a long north/south street (Although admittedly not a busy street). Disruption to 15th Street

-No frontage along a major Street

 

I haven't seen it suggested in the media but the MLS stadium could potentially fit at the Citirama site along a north-south axis if it extends over Clark Street- see the purple square on the diagram.  Land south of Clark Street could include Hay Porter Elementary campus land that is currently a drainage ditch, a church, a historic building, and a pocket park. 

 

Pros:

-Potentially less complicated land acquisition- less parties to deal with

-No need to rebuild Stargel/less disruption to Taft HS

-Visible Frontage along a major street (Ezzard Charles)

-Only disrupts 1 block of Clark Street, a smaller east-west street

-Closer to Union Terminal parking/I-75

-perhaps a parking garage underneath the stadium here could help densify the Messer HQ campus (maybe)

 

Cons:

-Smaller site (510x650)

-Lose 1 historic building (a rare survivor west of Mound Street)

-Need to relocate 1 church.  (Perhaps to the land they received the CMHA options on- corner of Linn and Ezzard Charles?) Need to relocate tenants of historic building

-potential more disruption to residential areas. To the north, there would be houses facing it but impact would be mitigated by boulevard nature of Ezzard Charles.  To the west Cutter street homes would face it but impact would be mitigated due to Cutter Street median.  Would need to figure out ways to activate stadium frontage so homes aren't staring at blank wall. To the south it would border Hayes Porter Elementary.  To the east is the Betts Longworth historic district.  These houses here would not face the stadium, but crowds may pass through their streets coming from OTR on game day. Hopefully residents would be open to reconnecting Hopkins St. with Central Avenue

-Traffic management of these smaller residential streets on game day

-Streetcar stops would 1 block further away compared to first option. People would use only Washington Park stops instead of using both Washington Park and Liberty Street stops

 

Both sites would be about equidistant from "Town Center" garage but the Ezzard Charles site would probably benefit more from the redevelopment of that block since people would pass it coming from OTR. 

County reaffirms that they're going to build the heirs to a billion-dollar fortune a free parking garage:

 

https://www.wcpo.com/sports/fc-cincinnati/county-extends-offer-to-pay-for-fc-cincinnati-stadium-parking-garage

^Seems like it'd be worth considering building the stadium by a pre-existing county-owned parking garage... if they are still considering West End, which from recent talks they appear to be, does anyone know if the current Freestore Foodbank site directly south of Music Hall's parking garage is in play?

 

EDIT - I didn't realize directly to the south were a bunch of electric transformers. From a quick view of the aerial it looked relatively clear all the way down to Court St.

Ah, the infamous Charles Street Substation. Hopefully we can get that moved, some day...

Ah, the infamous Charles Street Substation. Hopefully we can get that moved, some day...

 

Charles in Charge. 

 

 

Meanwhile:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/02/08/west-end-community-fc-cincinnati-not-here-not-stargel/320614002/

I hope the West End residents realize that they're about to get steamrolled by the Cincinnati Blue Bloods.

Why Mark Mallory is working to make a new FC Cincinnati stadium a reality

 

Mark Mallory's mayoralty was about doing big, transformative things for Cincinnati, so working to build a new stadium and landing a Major League Soccer franchise for FC Cincinnati naturally fits the bill, he said in an interview with the Business Courier.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/02/08/exclusive-why-mark-mallory-is-working-to-make-a.html

ODOT acquired The Dock at 603 W. Pete Rose Way. Perfect place for a stadium. Parking already done. And, who needs more off ramps down there?

ODOT acquired The Dock at 603 W. Pete Rose Way. Perfect place for a stadium. Parking already done. And, who needs more off ramps down there?

I assume you're just trolling/joking. 603 W Pete Rose Way is not a big parcel, nowhere near big enough to build a stadium.

Having worked in the West End for 5 years, I wholeheartedly welcome any positive development to the area. I don't care what anyone says, that neighborhood sucks.

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/west-end/west-end-mls-stadium-would-be-absolutely-unconscionable-wendell-young-said

 

Not a great sign, when a negative press conference is held before even meeting on 2/13 with Berding and Mallory at West End  Community council to discuss possible plan.  Back to Oakley we go.

ODOT acquired The Dock at 603 W. Pete Rose Way. Perfect place for a stadium. Parking already done. And, who needs more off ramps down there?

I assume you're just trolling/joking. 603 W Pete Rose Way is not a big parcel, nowhere near big enough to build a stadium.

And the Dock isn't being demolished for "more off ramps", it's to make space to build the new Brent Spence Bridge. Assuming, of course, that the new bridge is ever built.

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/west-end/west-end-mls-stadium-would-be-absolutely-unconscionable-wendell-young-said

 

Not a great sign, when a negative press conference is held before even meeting on 2/13 with Berding and Mallory at West End  Community council to discuss possible plan.  Back to Oakley we go.

What hypocritical grandstanding by some of those pepole.  "The West End needs a grocery store; the West End needs a drug store; the West End needs businesses," Thomas added. "It does not need a structure that changes the dynamics of the neighborhood." Well Thomas the current dynamic of the West End does not support those things. The only way to change that dynamic is to get more people to move there. You can't sit there and say you want development to come here but then turn your backs on the biggest and best opportunity the neighborhood has ever had. If you want the West End to stay as it is then it will continue to be a run down neighborhood with few amenities and businesses.

NIMBY's gonna NIMBY

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/west-end/west-end-mls-stadium-would-be-absolutely-unconscionable-wendell-young-said

 

Not a great sign, when a negative press conference is held before even meeting on 2/13 with Berding and Mallory at West End  Community council to discuss possible plan.  Back to Oakley we go.

What hypocritical grandstanding by some of those pepole.  "The West End needs a grocery store; the West End needs a drug store; the West End needs businesses," Thomas added. "It does not need a structure that changes the dynamics of the neighborhood." Well Thomas the current dynamic of the West End does not support those things. The only way to change that dynamic is to get more people to move there. You can't sit there and say you want development to come here but then turn your backs on the biggest and best opportunity the neighborhood has ever had. If you want the West End to stay as it is then it will continue to be a run down neighborhood with few amenities and businesses.

 

These were my thoughts as well. FC Cincinnati isn't in the grocery business or the drug store business either, so it's not like its their fault that WE is a food desert.  Plus it's not like building the stadium would cause those theoretical businesses to not open. I realize West End has had an unfair history, especially in regards to I-75 but at some point they'll have to realize not all major developments are bad and/or they should at least hear from what Berding and Mallory have to say next week at the CPS and community meetings before coming out with pitchforks.

If a stadium is built, at the very least, 200 new jobs will be created in that area, which will then change the demographics of the neighborhood and allow grocery stores to look at it as a viable neighborhood.

 

OR... don't build the stadium and have at it on your own

The West End needs actual leaders who don't just want to grandstand and educate the people that the way to get a grocery store and way to get a drug store is to create a critical mass for people who want to go there.  There is a give and take on everyone's part. A stadium wont do this alone, but it will help spur neighborhood housing to the area.

 

The other thing that irritates me about these idiot "community activists" are that they look at gentrification as a horrible thing. You cant have it both ways. If you want a grocery store and drug store, you need to actually have economic development that will allow for this. People like Josh Spring have the idea that the people can band together to influence the leaders to stop something. While that is true to an extent, and they can certain gum things up for a while, these tactics do not work when you are trying to get something, especially something that relies on private enterprise. Community leaders cant force Walgreens or Kroger to go to the neighborhood with those tactics. They may be able to band together to keep them out, but such behavior does not look good to encourage economic development. Why would they take a chance on a neighborhood that feels entitled to their businesses.

a grocery store is not going to hemorrhage money just because someone asked them to

Neighborhood residents are upset that they're being shut out of the conversation. And who can blame them? Especially given the history of the neighborhood. But also given the way the whole stadium thing has gone. FCC ownership prefers to flex their muscles to get what they want, rather than showing their hand by engaging the community.

I'm disappointed Wendell Young has come out against this so heavily with no details. He even says he doesn't want the stadium to be built if they build a better Stargel across the street. It just isn't a justifiable position. He's usually really level-headed.

Neighborhood residents are upset that they're being shut out of the conversation. And who can blame them? Especially given the history of the neighborhood. But also given the way the whole stadium thing has gone. FCC ownership prefers to flex their muscles to get what they want, rather than showing their hand by engaging the community.

 

There's literally 2 meetings scheduled next week for FCC to engage with CPS and WECC where FCC will present their plans. People are getting upset before knowing anything.

They know there has been a lot going on behind the scenes without their knowledge.

A lot goes on behind the scenes on any project before the public is made aware. This is no different. The school board can hold up the sale of land until they are satisfied with the plan FCC presents. People are acting like kids won't be able to walk to school any more. It's ridiculous.

^ Because you cant have everything open and speculating about ongoing negotiations that may or may nto even be relevant. When there is a final plan to present in place, the public can comment. That does not mean that all their concerns are valid, or even need to be addressed. When you do big projects of course some people are going to be unhappy.

 

The biggest problem is the community activists cause more harm than good, because in order to get what they want, they have to be willing to give in on a lot of things too. Part of the reason why OTR was so bad for so long is because you had people like Buddy Gray and Josh Spring keeping it back. Josh Spring needs to become part of the solution to the problem, not contribute to it.

I personally don't see Josh Spring ever being productive in a thing like this. When 3CDC was talking about renovating Ziegler Park he was mad that they held the meeting at the Woodward Theater (where there's a roof, projector, heat/AC, sound, and seating) instead of hosting it in the park itself. He said it excluded people. This was before he even saw a plan of what they were going to do. He doesn't want to work with developers, he just wants to stop developers. This means he gets nothing he wants because he won't work with anyone and he ends up doing more harm than good for his cause.

 

I'm sure he does good things in other avenues with the Homeless Coalition, but his opposition to any development is not helping him out.

^ he just does not get it. I understand he wants to use these events as a sounding board to help his coalition,  but opposing all gentrification and all opportunities to better the neighborhood just makes the poor poorer and leaves them further behind. He does not get the fact that development is never a zero sum gain and he needs to get over that mindset.

A stadium wont do this alone, but it will help spur neighborhood housing to the area.

 

 

Why do you think that? What is the appeal of living next to a stadium?

 

The whole process has been a complete joke from the beginning, and the West End residents SHOULD be royally pissed off that they're being seen as dispensable yet again. The neighborhood was obliterated by I-75, and residents there have some of the worst respiratory issues and health outcomes because of it. Urban renewal further destroyed the community, as large swaths of the neighborhood were demolished to make way for the failed Queensgate suburban style business parks and the massive public housing complexes. The West End was a large, established African American community WELL before the Great Migration, and its residents and urban fabric were completely dismantled due to top-down planning. They have every right to be skeptical of the FCC stadium plan, even if they were engaged from the start. Instead, the Lindners and Berding have been playing this secret game, acquiring purchase options of CMHA land, and not letting anyone know where they are considering placing the stadium and associated parking facilities, and they think they can use Mark Mallory as a token to satisfy those pesty anti-progress black people in the WE. And they're surprised it's blowing up in their faces? Just goes to show their arrogance and the lack of respect they have exhibited to this neighborhood.

 

Imagine if FCC was proposing to place the FCC stadium at the Withrow HS stadium site in Hyde Park. Do you think all the neighbors there would just be thrilled to have the stadium in their back yard? Do you think they'd object to noise and traffic and general incongruence with a stadium locating in a residential neighborhood? Of course they would, and most Hyde Parkers don't even send their kids to Withrow. The fact that people are stumped as to why the West End might be opposed to this is really crazy, and I think there is definitely an element of racism and classism at play. Yes, we can write off the neighborhood's demands for retail and a grocery store as being naive given the demographics of the place, but look into what they're really asking for when they make those claims. They don't want to live in an impoverished ghetto where people have some of the worst health outcomes in the state. They don't want to send their kids to crappy schools and have to worry about their safety getting to and from school. They want what all of us want- save, livable neighborhoods. A soccer stadium does nothing to help them, and it furthers the idea that their neighborhood is a blank slate and a development site, rather than a community, albeit a struggling one.

Activists, elected officials hotly oppose FC Cincinnati stadium in West End

 

 

Several major black political leaders expressed skepticism or outright opposition to building a new, $200 million soccer stadium for FC Cincinnati in the West End neighborhood, saying they are concerned about displacement, gentrification, racism and past broken promises.

 

Dwight Tillery, the former Cincinnati mayor, councilman Wendell Young, state Sen. Cecil Thomas and Joe Mallory, a vice president of the Cincinnati NAACP, spoke about the potential FCC stadium being built on the site of Stargel Stadium behind Taft Information Technology High School on Ezzard Charles Drive. Tillery, Thomas and Mallory all either grew up or had family living in the historically black neighborhood. All are Democrats. They held a news conference in the mailroom of the Stanley Rowe Tower Apartments on Thursday evening.

 

Tillery, Young and Thomas came out squarely against a new stadium being placed at the Stargel site and said the team had not been transparent and upfront about its plans. Young said he also would not back a scenario in which FC Cincinnati built a new Stargel Stadium across Ezzard Charles from Taft.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/02/09/activists-elected-officials-hotly-oppose-fc.html

^ this a perfect example of not getting it. There is so much wrong with this thought process, I don't know where to start.

 

Is a soccer stadium the end all? Of course not. It is a very large investment that can spur other development in the area to improve lives and outcomes for those who live in the area. The whole area rises with this. There were many decisions made decades earlier that have led to this point and finally people are willing to start to invest in the neighborhood again, for the betterment of the community. 

 

People want good schools, people want a better living environment, people want them to invest in their community, well this will serve as a catalyst. Look what Columbus has done with the arena district, look what 3CDC has done with OTR,  they needed a catalyst to draw people there to give it a shot. It needed to gentrify, it needed to have a reason to bring capital to the neighborhood. It could not improve without that capital.  Call it classism or elitism or what, but the fact is, you need capital from the outside to bring the neighborhood back because it is not economically strong enough as is to develop that investment on its own. To get this capital, you need investors who will be able to get a return on their investment.  There really is no other way.

 

You hear the "community leaders" and the Josh Spring's of the world complain about how these neighborhoods are neglected and that there is the continual drumbeat of segregation to keep them down, but when there are proposals to try and bring it back, they are shot down because they will force some people out of the area and also only benefit those with the capital. This is foolishness. Yes, with anything, some people will need to move, but overall, more people are able to improve their lives as the neighborhood gets better. There is more opportunity for everyone.

Appears to me that so far most if not all of the "No" people speaking out against this are people who are NOT West End residents. 

 

Dwight Tillery

Wendell Young

Cecil Thomas

Josh Spring

Brian Garry

Michele Dillingham

etc.

 

Does Joe Mallory even still live in the WE?