The portion of the property at the NE corner of this site has lagering cellars 40' deep from the Windisch-Muhlhauser/Lion Brewery. Any construction there could be expensive, but potentially very cool if they are able to incorporate them somehow.

 

Have you been down there?  The team has enough money to actually turn something like that into a functioning bar. 

 

If the stadium is built close to Central Parkway, what happens to the land near John St.?  Is it just a plaza, or does it become parking?

 

Just shared on Twitter:

FC Cincinnati reveals more details on West End stadium plan, property taxes

 

If FC Cincinnati locates a Major League Soccer stadium in the West End at the Stargel Stadium site, it will be oriented toward the east side of a two-block site along Central Parkway, according to a site map released by the club.

 

The club also released details of agreements it will propose with both the Cincinnati School Board and the West End community, including $4 million in property taxes in the first 12 years of the new MLS club's life as well as additional benefits to the district and its schoolchildren.

 

But several Cincinnati School Board members rejected the proposal after Monday night's meeting, saying it fell short of making the school district whole.

 

"It's not in the best interest of our schools and our district to accept what they currently propose," said Carolyn Jones, the school board president.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/03/12/fc-cincinnati-reveals-more-details-on-west-end.html

Is it just me or could this thing go to Newport? If I’m FCC, I’m just a bit to the end of my rope with all the Cincy drama.

Is it just me or could this thing go to Newport? If I’m FCC, I’m just a bit to the end of my rope with all the Cincy drama.

 

FCC have put a lot of effort towards west end these past few months. I would argue that if they cared so much about getting the best deal then they would have picked Newport/Oakley months ago. I can understand cps point though. FCC will be spending over 400 million dollars with this project. Why can’t they pay there fair share of taxes, especially since the taxes are the very thing that fund the cps schools.

If FCC and CPS can't agree on terms the question is whether Oakley or Newport is the backup plan. I guess we'll find out in 2 or so weeks.

Is it just me or could this thing go to Newport? If Im FCC, Im just a bit to the end of my rope with all the Cincy drama.

 

FCC have put a lot of effort towards west end these past few months. I would argue that if they cared so much about getting the best deal then they would have picked Newport/Oakley months ago. I can understand cps point though. FCC will be spending over 400 million dollars with this project. Why cant they pay there fair share of taxes, especially since the taxes are the very thing that fund the cps schools.

How much property tax does Paul Brown Stadium and Great American Ballpark pay?

Zero

The portion of the property at the NE corner of this site has lagering cellars 40' deep from the Windisch-Muhlhauser/Lion Brewery. Any construction there could be expensive, but potentially very cool if they are able to incorporate them somehow.

 

Have you been down there?  The team has enough money to actually turn something like that into a functioning bar. 

 

If the stadium is built close to Central Parkway, what happens to the land near John St.?  Is it just a plaza, or does it become parking?

 

 

Yes, they are pretty amazing. This site was built when the brewery expanded in the 1880's, so it is not the arched stone construction, but they are the most massive set of cellars I have seen in Cincinnati.

They could also build in Oakley, which is in the CPS district, and pay zero tax dollars as there is no school board that needs to approve their stadium there.  Or they could build in Newport which would also result in zero new tax dollars for CPS.  If CPS pushes too hard they could lose all potential new tax dollars and this huge investment in the West End that actually is willing to work with the residents.  I think FC might up their offer a little but ultimately Cranley and Lindner will use their power to push this through. 

They could also build in Oakley, which is in the CPS district, and pay zero tax dollars as there is no school board that needs to approve their stadium there.  Or they could build in Newport which would also result in zero new tax dollars for CPS.  If CPS pushes too hard they could lose all potential new tax dollars and this huge investment in the West End that actually is willing to work with the residents.  I think FC might up their offer a little but ultimately Cranley and Lindner will use their power to push this through. 

 

And despite my comments about going to Newport, I think this is what happens as well, after some reflection. I think reasonable minds can agree that FCC needs to come a bit further toward what CPS wants and this is all part of the theatrics. There is an agreement in principle. CPS is obviously open to making it happen. Now it’s just deciding on price.

 

Public negotiations like this serve dual purposes of both parties getting the best deal and the PR side of things as well. CPS wants to be seen as standing firm for their students and families and FCC wants to be seen as generous and cooperative.

 

Things are blustery right now but I think you’ll see that a deal will be reached the last week of March.

 

Edited: Typos.

Both CPS and FCC have pretty good bargaining positions (FCC can go to Oakley depriving CPS of any tax revenue; CPS can withhold support depriving FCC of its preferred site)... AND they both seem to realize that the best scenario is to strike a deal that makes West End work.

It's just negotiation. FCC will come back with a counteroffer, say that they'll kick in some additional amount of money for athletics, remind CPS that they won't get any tax revenue if the stadium goes to Oakley, and CPS will agree to the deal. Again, I don't understand why fans are getting exasperated because the first round of negotiations did not result in a deal. In business and in politics, it takes a lot of negotiation before a deal is reached.

Fans just want the whole thing decided and over. It's a lot less fun than soccer.

Yeah because us fans have been following this drama for like 13 months now. Plus a lot of the pro-Newport people think they smell blood after Berding went over there, NKY Chamber made a meme and now NKY chamber is hosting a grill out to help get the stadium there at Wooden Cask Brewery. I had the quit a facebook fan group over this nonsense. I hope you all are correct about it getting done in the West End. Makes sense to me, but like Ryan said...I'm ready for this to be over.

I am skeptical that the school board will do the right thing. School administrators sometimes tend to be the worst businesspeople and given the charged political mess this has become in the neighborhood, will the sensible heads prevail and realize CPS is much better off selling the land.

 

1) it is unrealistic to expect FC to pay the full freight on the property tax because almost no developer or commercial owner pays this, there are many ways around it and even if they would agree, they could always get them reduced in the future through legal appeal processes. Therefore, it is in the CPS best interest to be a partner with FC to make sure the investment is profitable. That will develop the neighborhood.

2) If the stadium does not go to the West End, the entire area will remain the same and not develop or gentrify. If CPS wants additional taxes, the neighborhood gentrification will help grow the pot significantly too without creating an environment to bring many new students into the system.

 

CPS cant afford to be greedy here. They should recognize this gift as what it is and take the deal.

Oh the West End will gentrify. The CitiRama site that FCC wants to turn into a new football stadium will instead become a bunch of expensive town homes along with the real estate development areas that FCC currently has the option on to the west of John St. There's far too much vacant property in the West End for it not to gentrify.

 

I am skeptical that the school board will do the right thing. School administrators sometimes tend to be the worst businesspeople and given the charged political mess this has become in the neighborhood, will the sensible heads prevail and realize CPS is much better off selling the land.

 

1) it is unrealistic to expect FC to pay the full freight on the property tax because almost no developer or commercial owner pays this, there are many ways around it and even if they would agree, they could always get them reduced in the future through legal appeal processes. Therefore, it is in the CPS best interest to be a partner with FC to make sure the investment is profitable. That will develop the neighborhood.

2) If the stadium does not go to the West End, the entire area will remain the same and not develop or gentrify. If CPS wants additional taxes, the neighborhood gentrification will help grow the pot significantly too without creating an environment to bring many new students into the system.

 

CPS cant afford to be greedy here. They should recognize this gift as what it is and take the deal.

 

There’s part of me that feels they are being pretty brave about it too. Further leads me to believe that the deal is done and this is all controlled brinksmanship so they both can save the day.

There's far too much vacant property in the West End for it not to gentrify.

 

 

By 2030 the area will be quite different, stadium or no stadium.  I believe that FC is banking on this and so anticipates owning a stadium that will be much more the center of action by then rather than the edge of the known universe. 

Just a quick word about how tax abatements work. In Cincinnati, you are given a tax abatement for the improved value of your property for the city and county portions of the property tax. However, no abatement is typically given for the school property tax. So, if I buy a $25,000 lot and build a $200,000 house on it, and then get a 12 year tax abatement, I will only pay the city and county taxes based on a $25,000 valuation for the first 12 years. However I will pay the school district the full property tax based on the full (actual) $225,000 valuation.

 

However, what FCC is proposing is something quite different. They are suggesting that, instead of basing their payments on their property value like every other property owner does, it will be set to:

 

$100,000 per year between 2018 and 2020 when the stadium would be under construction.

 

$250,000 per year between 2021 and 2026, the first five years of stadium occupancy.

 

$500,000 per year between 2027 and 2031, the second five years of stadium occupancy.

 

A sliding scale from 2032 onward based on FC Cincinnati's net profit.

 

To me the biggest issue isn't the actual dollar amount, it's that FCC ownership wants to go straight to the city and county and cut a deal where their property tax rate is a set amount and not actually tied to...the value of their property. Give an abatement, that's fine by me. But this type of side deal is so shady.

But this type of side deal is so shady.

 

Big developers always pay a much lower property tax rate than the equivalent number of homes or small businesses.  They threaten to not do the development if they don't get their deal. 

 

Cincinnati Public has an annual budget of $1 billion.  The amount of property tax they do or don't get from this stadium is of no consequence. 

$1 billion and the CPS school system is still complete shit.  Jesus what a horrible use of money. 

But they're not proposing to pay a lower property tax rate. They're proposing to pay a fixed amount of money that is in no way related to the actual value of their property.

Yes and no Jake. The $500k will employ a few art teachers and band directors at some of the schools. It will mean less budget cuts elsewhere in the city down the line. It is not worth sneezing over and in the grand scheme of things, they will have a property generating $500k in taxes or $0 in taxes for the long term. To me this seems like a no - brainer. I would take an annual stream of $500k in taxes for a long time, plus they get improved facilities (an upgrade to stargel) and additional extracurricular programs in the schools.

 

CPS also has to realize that it make no sense to try and squeeze the city. It makes zero sense to make the deal uneconomical for the team such that they go to Newport and say screw you. No body wins there. FC is trying to create a partnership with CPS and the city, yet it appears some people on CPS are greedy and just see a fat cow they can exploit. 

But they're not proposing to pay a lower property tax rate. They're proposing to pay a fixed amount of money that is in no way related to the actual value of their property.

Looks like GE worked out a similar deal where they pay a fixed amount every year. 

 

 

@AmandaSeitz1

I'm trying to get the payments county taxpayers make on Paul Brown Stadium. GE Global Operation at The Banks, which was sold for $107M in 2016, worked out a deal to pay $450K to the schools per year.

To me the biggest issue isn't the actual dollar amount, it's that FCC ownership wants to go straight to the city and county and cut a deal where their property tax rate is a set amount and not actually tied to...the value of their property. Give an abatement, that's fine by me. But this type of side deal is so shady.

I see your point... but there are also challenges of how the property might be valued in the future. FCC lawyers could (and would) argue that the value of the property is very low to minimize their property tax burden. So, I actually prefer the transparency of an agreement that clearly states what they'd pay each year, as opposed to simply agreeing to a % of assessed value.

Looks like GE worked out a similar deal where they pay a fixed amount every year. 

@AmandaSeitz1

I'm trying to get the payments county taxpayers make on Paul Brown Stadium.

 

The 1996 stadium tax is a sales tax.  That means 25-30% is paid by people who don't live in the county, especially commuters. 

 

Public Schools in Ohio are usually supported almost entirely by local property taxes.  In some rural districts there is an earnings tax for schools because working farms are largely exempted from paying school property taxes. 

 

 

 

 

The value of the property isn't necessarily how much you spent to build it, right?

 

The FCC stadium would cost $250 Million to build, but that doesn't mean that it would be valued at $250 Million. Right? GE spent $85 Million to build the Operations Center, but the county auditor lists the value at just shy of $50 Million.

Owners of big, expensive buildings frequently go in front of the Board of Revisions and have their property values reduced in order to pay less tax. Back in 2014-15, the blog Cincyopolis documented many examples of this. While I don't think that many of these "revisions" should have been granted, it is a somewhat fair process. The auditor says your property is worth $X, you have to go make your case why your property is actually worth $Y. Then you have to pay the full property tax rate based on the final valuation that is determined.

 

I did not realize that GE got a similar "fixed rate" property tax deal. Just imagine for a second that Cincinnati landed Amazon HQ2 and they decided to locate at The Banks. The value of GE's building would have doubled or tripled overnight, and yet Cincinnati and Hamilton County would not have seen any benefit from that, since they already agreed to a fixed rate.

^ The auditors assessment is a very imperfect tool for valuing property and often if you present appraisal data from a qualified appraisal, you will typically win your reduction. The County relies on people who do not challenge the taxes. I know the legislature is trying to work on things so that taxes do not get jacked up every time there is a transaction in order to spur more velocity in transfers in the area, but like anything, it will take a while before anything ever comes of it.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/education/2018/03/13/fc-cincinnati-what-take-get-yes-school-board-mls-stadium/420904002/

 

Melanie Bates - Yes

 

Eve Bolton - Yes

 

Ericka Copeland-Dansby - ??? Did not respond

 

Carolyn Jones - Yes

 

Ryan Messer - Yes

 

Mike Moroski - No

 

Lannis Timmons - No

 

Does anyone if this is a majority 4-3 vote, or if it has to be a 7-0 unanimous vote?

I seriously doubt it has to be a unanimous vote. Almost no decisions have to be unanimous. But I don't know the threshold.

 

Also, I don't think these yes/no's are indicative of what FCC has proposed. They just said that they would work with the team to come to a solution. It's possible that they could never reach a point of agreement.

I seriously doubt it has to be a unanimous vote. Almost no decisions have to be unanimous. But I don't know the threshold.

 

Also, I don't think these yes/no's are indicative of what FCC has proposed. They just said that they would work with the team to come to a solution. It's possible that they could never reach a point of agreement.

 

Mike Moroski of the CPS Board just confirmed it has to be a simple majority vote. So 4-3.

 

The yes/no are indicative of there current stance, on the basis if FCC increases there tax pledge. To what amount is unknown. The 2 no votes, want the full 2 million of tax income. No room for negation.

 

Not sure what the, "magic number" for CPS is, with those who are willing to negotiate a dollar amount..

I would not doubt that there is some politicking behind the scenes to get the minimum number of "yes" votes necessary to pass this sale. It's going to be controversial decision, so even if it actually has more than 4-3 support from the board, board members want to avoid sticking their necks out there and potentially being voted out of office next time they're up for election.

This and the fact that it really doesn't effect the residential part of the West End now if it faces Central Parkway and it doens't cross John street should make this a win for all involved i would hope. It would be nice if the city and county weren't pressured to pony up tax money for it but hopefully the pros outweigh the cons. Hopefully this keeps the enthusiasm for soccer growing and doesn't kill it like the PBS deal did for so many.

I hope CPS says yes and the residents say yes. Time to move on to the positives.

 

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/03/14/fc-cincinnati-doubles-stadium-offer-schools-demands-answer-5-p-m-wednesday/423753002/

It would be malfeasance for the board to turn down the current offer of $750k per year

This and the fact that it really doesn't effect the residential part of the West End now if it faces Central Parkway

 

It's literally on the extreme edge of the neighborhood, where nobody lives.

 

But we still haven't seen a site plan.  It would be a shame if they're planning a large parking garage between John St. and the edge of the stadium. 

 

 

 

I wonder if there's any chance of having a restaurant/bar/shop/anything on the side facing Central Parkway that could be open year-round. That would make the stadium less of a dead space during the winter months.

This and the fact that it really doesn't effect the residential part of the West End now if it faces Central Parkway

 

It's literally on the extreme edge of the neighborhood, where nobody lives.

 

But we still haven't seen a site plan.  It would be a shame if they're planning a large parking garage between John St. and the edge of the stadium. 

 

 

 

They said it would be some type of plaza or green space between John St. and the stadium.  But like you said we haven't seen any plans or mock ups. 

CPS has scheduled an emergency meeting for 1:30pm

Amazing...FC school board meeting held at the same time as city council Harry Black meeting.  Chris Wetterich and our thinned-out media can't be at both meetings at once.  Carl Lindner, Jr. built a fortune by pulling off moves like this.  Carl III didn't fall far from the tree. 

Amazing...FC school board meeting held at the same time as city council Harry Black meeting.  Chris Wetterich and our thinned-out media can't be at both meetings at once.  Carl Lindner, Jr. built a fortune by pulling off moves like this.  Carl III didn't fall far from the tree. 

 

Ahem.

 

Local media will be consumed with news about the City Manager and Mayor's feud for the next few weeks, so the stadium stuff won't get the attention it deserves.

Amanda Seitz is at the CPS meeting... and is reporting that the CPS Board is seeking clarification from FCC lawyers for a legally binding contract prior to voting. The Board would not be doing this if they were planning to reject the latest offer outright. So it sounds like we might be close to a decision (assuming CPS Board can get clarification and contract from FCC):

https://twitter.com/AmandaSeitz1

Looks like CPS is trying to make a counter offer. Let's hope they aren't being too greedy and know what they are doing. I have little faith in the school board here. Some of them have absolutely zero business/ real estate knowledge.

Amanda Seitz is at the CPS meeting... and is reporting that the CPS Board is seeking clarification from FCC lawyers for a legally binding contract prior to voting. The Board would not be doing this if they were planning to reject the latest offer outright. So it sounds like we might be close to a decision (assuming CPS Board can get clarification and contract from FCC):

https://twitter.com/AmandaSeitz1

 

Well, according to Amanda Seitz's twitter, CPS did reject the offer and FCC passed on the purchase of property in the West End.

 

So... Newport?

...or Oakley. But it does appear CPS had their feelings hurt by the 5pm deadline and decided nearly a million dollars in new tax money isn’t worth it. It’s dissapointing but I guess CPS was afraid off political backlash.

CPS didn't want a million dollars in extra tax money but yet they've already stated they will be asking for new levies the next three years.  Honestly it's embarrassing for the city that they passed on this deal.  This will end up as just another business that goes to NKY over Cincy because we have idiots in charge on this side of the river. 

Newport is the best site of the three. Let Kentucky provide the tax breaks and infrastructure subsidizes; Hamilton County and Cincinnati will benefit from people parking or pre-gaming at The Banks and walking over to the stadium. The empty West End lot will get developed with new single family homes which will be tax abated for 12 or 15 years, but eventually will pay their full tax burden to the city, county, and school district, not a discounted amount they pre-negotiated with the School Board. Maybe this will help the region get over their weird hang-up about Northern Kentucky not being part of Greater Cincinnati.

I can’t wait to hear how CPS plans to raise $750k a year. Absolutely clueless and disappointing.

Apparently FC did not offer an actual contract - you can't blame them for not approving something that isn't in writing.  Today was just a negotiation step. 

Newport is the best site of the three. Let Kentucky provide the tax breaks and infrastructure subsidizes; Hamilton County and Cincinnati will benefit from people parking or pre-gaming at The Banks and walking over to the stadium. The empty West End lot will get developed with new single family homes which will be tax abated for 12 or 15 years, but eventually will pay their full tax burden to the city, county, and school district, not a discounted amount they pre-negotiated with the School Board. Maybe this will help the region get over their weird hang-up about Northern Kentucky not being part of Greater Cincinnati.

 

Apparently FC did not offer an actual contract - you can't blame them for not approving something that isn't in writing.  Today was just a negotiation step. 

 

Thanks for seeing the sunny side but I’m thinking negotiations are over in the WE.