With the mls now a go, when do you think they will begin construction on the stadium?

With the mls now a go, when do you think they will begin construction on the stadium?

 

I speculate the new Stargel will be underway by late summer. Once its complete they can tear the old stadium down and start construction of the MLS stadium. There may be a way they can start on the east part of the new MLS stadium earlier but they probably can do no more than tear down the buildings and begin grading the land.

With the mls now a go, when do you think they will begin construction on the stadium?

 

The Business Courier reported that the team will join MLS for the 2019 season and move to the new stadium for the 2021 season. 

 

Also, from the MLS commissioner:

Garber said the delay in awarding the franchise was purely a product of finalizing a stadium site. MLS originally planned to award two expansion franchises by the end of 2017. It awarded Nashville then, but waited on Cincinnati, which it clearly liked once a stadium site was finalized.

 

FC Cincinnati was choosing among Oakley, Newport and the West End – its ultimate choice – at that point. The Oakley site didn’t work, Garber said.

 

“We said it just doesn’t feel like the character of this fan base,” Garber said. “These fans make me feel like I’m in this urban rebirth type of environment. We pushed Carl and the mayor and city council to get that (West End) site. That’s what took so long.”

 

I don't really believe that statement.  It's obvious that the city fathers (the blue bloods who fuel local politics) are moving to control the redevelopment of Central Parkway from the bend up to Liberty St. We will likely soon hear specific plans for redevelopment of the WCET studios property.  Building a soccer stadium in Oakley or Kentucky or out on Lindner-owned land next to the tennis complex in Mason would not have enabled the leverage of public money to the same extent.

 

I'll repeat that not moving the tennis tournament into the city as part of this stadium complex is a big missed opportunity to get crowds into the downtown hotels and restaurants for two weeks straight each August. 

 

 

^ The tennis center in Mason is a big complex, even putting aside the various parking lots and grassy parking areas.  I don't know how they'd find room to fit both it and a soccer stadium somewhere downtown.   

^ The tennis center in Mason is a big complex, even putting aside the various parking lots and grassy parking areas.  I don't know how they'd find room to fit both it and a soccer stadium somewhere downtown.   

 

A year ago I think people said that about a soccer stadium.  These people are able to play sim city. 

MLS wants the teams as close to downtown as possible. Here's a scatterplot I did with attendance and miles from City center

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/XA2a3SMqrOl0aCmr1

thomasbw[/member] can you do the same scatterplot, but remove the highest two attended teams (maybe bottom two as well)? They are such an outlier that I don't think they are useful data points

 

With the mls now a go, when do you think they will begin construction on the stadium?

 

The Business Courier reported that the team will join MLS for the 2019 season and move to the new stadium for the 2021 season. 

 

Also, from the MLS commissioner:

Garber said the delay in awarding the franchise was purely a product of finalizing a stadium site. MLS originally planned to award two expansion franchises by the end of 2017. It awarded Nashville then, but waited on Cincinnati, which it clearly liked once a stadium site was finalized.

 

FC Cincinnati was choosing among Oakley, Newport and the West End – its ultimate choice – at that point. The Oakley site didn’t work, Garber said.

 

“We said it just doesn’t feel like the character of this fan base,” Garber said. “These fans make me feel like I’m in this urban rebirth type of environment. We pushed Carl and the mayor and city council to get that (West End) site. That’s what took so long.”

 

I don't really believe that statement.  It's obvious that the city fathers (the blue bloods who fuel local politics) are moving to control the redevelopment of Central Parkway from the bend up to Liberty St. We will likely soon hear specific plans for redevelopment of the WCET studios property.  Building a soccer stadium in Oakley or Kentucky or out on Lindner-owned land next to the tennis complex in Mason would not have enabled the leverage of public money to the same extent.

I'll repeat that not moving the tennis tournament into the city as part of this stadium complex is a big missed opportunity to get crowds into the downtown hotels and restaurants for two weeks straight each August. 

 

 

God again with your conspiracy theories.  It's been known for months that MLS told FC Oakley was not an acceptable site as it was too far away from the urban core.  Mason also had no chance of being accepted as a stadium site which is why they didn't even pitch it.  To them Oakley was a no go when FC had two other acceptable sites in West End and Newport.  MLS was fine with Newport but Lindner obviously wasn't so it was always West End or bust.  Garber admitted yesterday the delay in announcing FC to MLS was because of their desire for the West End stadium spot.  They helped ownership work with all the local politicians to get that stadium accepted.  The city has also talked about their desire to redevelop the WCET property and garage for years, before FC even existed.  There's no blue blood conspiracy, MLS wanted the West End site and they were in a position of power to demand it.

 

And the tennis tournament was never going to move.  Even if they wanted to move it (which they certainly don't) there's nowhere you could put a soccer stadium and a tennis complex close to downtown.  The Lindners already own the stadium and all the land out in Mason.  They already have the biggest tennis tournament in the country outside the US Open.  And they're in the middle of a $25 million upgrade to the facility.  While we're at it why don't we move Kings Island close to downtown?  That would get crowds into hotels and restaurants every summer.  Some things just don't fit downtown and those two aren't ever going to move. 

It would take another 20 years of urban core revitalization to pull the ATP crowd downtown to see a tennis match. That crowd is made of CHL and beltway folk, mostly boomers who belong to golf clubs and have long driveways and big patios. Yes, those people go to FCC matches, and they come to OTR for birthday dinners and charity events and weekend Findlay trips. And yes, there are FCC folk like myself go to the ATP every year because that's just what we grew up doing. But there isn't as much marketable overlap as you'd think.

 

Personally I would love the idea of putting the ATP in Queensgate to round out a crescent of GABP, PBS, and FCC, very much like Melbourne's swath of stadiums. But it isn't even a consideration at this point. The ATP thrives where it currently is specifically because it's such a featureless and benign experience right up until the first swing of the racquet. FCC is a different beast in nearly every way. Its supporters might live in Oakley and Mason in addition to the core, but fundamentally it's an urban phenomenon, an expression of "the city" as a phenomenological entity--and thus a marketable classification. 

God again with your conspiracy theories.  It's been known for months that MLS told FC Oakley was not an acceptable site as it was too far away from the urban core.  Mason also had no chance of being accepted as a stadium site which is why they didn't even pitch it. 

 

It's not a conspiracy.  Read Dan Hurley's book from 1981 or 1982.  It outlines how after the "failure" (actually, the sabotaging by neglect) of the subway project, Central Parkway was reimagined as a "cultural corridor" in order to keep the center of downtown from moving north from Fountain Square (there is simply no question that the American Building was the beginning of what would have been a skyscraper-lined boulevard rather than the non-event that Central Parkway became).  The cultural corridor was put on ice because allowing OTR to descend into chaos after WWII served the same function of scaring away investment along the Parkway.  Plus, the parkway was completely cut-off from the expressway network.  Logic dictated creating ramps to and from I-75 and I-71 to either end of the east/west section of the Parkway, but neither appeared, and that wasn't by accident. 

 

With the formation of 3CDC we saw the blue bloods unite to at last redevelop OTR on their own terms.  That's why SCPA was moved to a new building on Central Parkway -- to use up that lot that otherwise could have been a big for-profit development that could have competed with downtown.  Now we see Lindner/Cranley/3CDC acting to fill in Central Parkway north of the elbow with Lindner/Cranley/3CDC-approved stuff. 

 

God again with your conspiracy theories.  It's been known for months that MLS told FC Oakley was not an acceptable site as it was too far away from the urban core.  Mason also had no chance of being accepted as a stadium site which is why they didn't even pitch it. 

 

It's not a conspiracy.  Read Dan Hurley's book from 1981 or 1982.  It outlines how after the "failure" (actually, the sabotaging by neglect) of the subway project, Central Parkway was reimagined as a "cultural corridor" in order to keep the center of downtown from moving north from Fountain Square (there is simply no question that the American Building was the beginning of what would have been a skyscraper-lined boulevard rather than the non-event that Central Parkway became).  The cultural corridor was put on ice because allowing OTR to descend into chaos after WWII served the same function of scaring away investment along the Parkway.  Plus, the parkway was completely cut-off from the expressway network.  Logic dictated creating ramps to and from I-75 and I-71 to either end of the east/west section of the Parkway, but neither appeared, and that wasn't by accident. 

 

With the formation of 3CDC we saw the blue bloods unite to at last redevelop OTR on their own terms.  That's why SCPA was moved to a new building on Central Parkway -- to use up that lot that otherwise could have been a big for-profit development that could have competed with downtown.  Now we see Lindner/Cranley/3CDC acting to fill in Central Parkway north of the elbow with Lindner/Cranley/3CDC-approved stuff. 

 

 

I think the key to this is 3CDC. Without an organization set up the way it is (with all the power players on the organization's board), there was too much uncertainty on who controls what.

Besides the stadium and the WCET garage there really isn't much else in terms of developable land along Central between the bend and Liberty.  If/when the ballet moves that would come open but it's not a huge plot of land unless Tri-State Wholesale can be convinced to move.  Besides that the police district isn't going anywhere and it would be a struggle politically to move the Freestore Foodbank.  I'd love it if they could move all those power lines south of the foodbank and develop that spot but I'm sure that's very difficult to do.  The surface lot between Plum and Central Ave could certainly be developed but it's not on Central Pkwy. 

^ The tennis center in Mason is a big complex, even putting aside the various parking lots and grassy parking areas.  I don't know how they'd find room to fit both it and a soccer stadium somewhere downtown.   

 

A year ago I think people said that about a soccer stadium.  These people are able to play sim city.

 

The tennis center is much larger than a soccer stadium. Nevermind that the Mason facility has had millions of dollars poured into it in recent years, and is now one of the premier tennis facilities in the world, having such a large use downtown or in the basin would be a huge waste of land.

^ The tennis center in Mason is a big complex, even putting aside the various parking lots and grassy parking areas.  I don't know how they'd find room to fit both it and a soccer stadium somewhere downtown.   

 

A year ago I think people said that about a soccer stadium.  These people are able to play sim city.

 

The tennis center is much larger than a soccer stadium. Nevermind that the Mason facility has had millions of dollars poured into it in recent years, and is now one of the premier tennis facilities in the world, having such a large use downtown or in the basin would be a huge waste of land.

 

The Tennis Center also has very select events that are destinations in and of themselves. When you have multiple baseball/soccer games throughout a season, it helps to have nearby draws and attractions. The tennis center seems to really only go full out one week a year with a pretty "rare" event. For a Reds fan, being able to grab a bite to eat or hang out at the bar after probably makes the trip to the ballpark a little more appealing. When you want to see the best tennis players in the world and only have select opportunities to do so, location and nearby amenities probably don't factor in as much.

The West End does have more vacant land, just not right near Music Hall.  FCC was also looking at backup possibilities centered around Olive and Poplar Streets between Central and Linn.  They approached land owners I know in this area.

God again with your conspiracy theories.  It's been known for months that MLS told FC Oakley was not an acceptable site as it was too far away from the urban core.  Mason also had no chance of being accepted as a stadium site which is why they didn't even pitch it. 

 

It's not a conspiracy.  Read Dan Hurley's book from 1981 or 1982.  It outlines how after the "failure" (actually, the sabotaging by neglect) of the subway project, Central Parkway was reimagined as a "cultural corridor" in order to keep the center of downtown from moving north from Fountain Square (there is simply no question that the American Building was the beginning of what would have been a skyscraper-lined boulevard rather than the non-event that Central Parkway became).  The cultural corridor was put on ice because allowing OTR to descend into chaos after WWII served the same function of scaring away investment along the Parkway.  Plus, the parkway was completely cut-off from the expressway network.  Logic dictated creating ramps to and from I-75 and I-71 to either end of the east/west section of the Parkway, but neither appeared, and that wasn't by accident. 

 

With the formation of 3CDC we saw the blue bloods unite to at last redevelop OTR on their own terms.  That's why SCPA was moved to a new building on Central Parkway -- to use up that lot that otherwise could have been a big for-profit development that could have competed with downtown.  Now we see Lindner/Cranley/3CDC acting to fill in Central Parkway north of the elbow with Lindner/Cranley/3CDC-approved stuff.

 

Whatever collusion among the business elite happened a century ago has nothing to do with MLS or FC Cincinnati. MLS prefers urban locations, so Newport or West End. FC Cincinnati wanted to be in Cincinnati proper, so Oakley or West End. Only one of those neighborhoods made both lists. There's not some grand conspiracy controlling every decision.

^ Yeah, and if there was a real blue blood conspiracy in action to preserve land values and office rates in the downtown core, I think they'd be more concerned about Rookwood, Kenwood, and Mason than the West End. Maybe in the past these areas immediately adjacent to the CBD presented a threat, but nowadays, the 71 corridor is where the money is flowing. When you look regionally, the difference between Fountain Square and Central Parkway is really negligible.

With Hotlanta and Mild Seattle

 

 

 

Without

 

With Hotlanta and Mild Seattle

 

 

 

Without

 

 

How did you determine the center of each city?  I'm actually wanting to do something similar with MLB stadiums, but I can't find any info on what the center of a particular city is or how to figure it out for myself.

 

Great question. I used google walking directions and typed in the name of the city as the start point and the stadium as the end point. It was at least consistent.

^ I wonder how Google determines that. For "Cincinnati" it looks like they're inexplicably using 21C. New York City is more logical - it's City Hall.

Ballot challenge is brewing:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/05/29/key-part-of-fc-cincinnati-stadium-package-could.html?ana=twt

Did anyone watched the announcement video yesterday?

 

Was I the only one who got chills when Don Garber recognized how special the stadium location would be?

 

He admitted that MLS fought for that location, and compared OTR/West End to various European cities (stadium site wise), and how this will be the premier stadium location in all of MLS. He had very high praise for OTR, and I'm just so happy that our historic district is getting this level of attention.

 

I mentioned a year or 2 ago, how OTR will become a destination for tourists all across America, and with FCC being located in OTR/West End this will only garner that much attention/tourists.

 

Also, do not be surprised (especially if FCC garners large international friendlies like Barcelona/Madrid/Bayren Munich) if OTR becomes an international destination as well. Huge for the recognition of this beloved historic district.

 

 

So it comes out that MLS is going to let the Detroit team play at Ford Field and FC Cincinnati had the option to play at Nippert permanently.  Instead, they'll get corporate welfare to build what turns out to be a needless stadium. 

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/soccer/fc-cincinnati/2018/05/29/garber-q/652714002/

 

So for those out there accusing me of starting and fanning conspiracy theories, rest assured that there is WAY more going on with anything Lindner/Berding/Cranley/3CDC are up to than they will say publicly. 

 

 

 

So it comes out that MLS is going to let the Detroit team play at Ford Field and FC Cincinnati had the option to play at Nippert permanently.  Instead, they'll get corporate welfare to build what turns out to be a needless stadium. 

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/soccer/fc-cincinnati/2018/05/29/garber-q/652714002/

 

So for those out there accusing me of starting and fanning conspiracy theories, rest assured that there is WAY more going on with anything Lindner/Berding/Cranley/3CDC are up to than they will say publicly. 

 

Detroit hasn't been awarded a team, and the MLS clearly still clearly prefers a soccer specific stadium over Ford Field. The Detroit's bid insistence on using Ford Field is basically why they lost the bid.

 

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/2018/05/29/detroit-mls-expansion-don-garber/650275002/

Don Garber: Detroit's 2020 MLS bid hindered by choosing Ford Field

 

But when the Dan Gilbert-Tom Gores-backed ownership group abandoned plans to build a soccer-specific open-air stadium, and instead announced in November that it would retrofit Ford Field for soccer usage to save costs, it hurt the effort to put a MLS franchise in downtown Detroit in time for the 2020 season.

 

Garber was clear that Detroit remains in the mix when the league awards two additional franchises to start play in 2022 — if concerns over the venue are addressed.

 

“It set them back,” Garber said at Rhinegeist Brewery, a downtown joint located a short distance from where FC Cincinnati will build a soccer stadium.

 

“But in many ways, they have come together to retrofit Ford Field, which could make it very MLS-ready and they can talk about what those ideas might be, but they were really front runners when they were looking at the jail site.”

^ I don't see how you get that from the article. I think you are reading too much into it Jake.

So it comes out that MLS is going to let the Detroit team play at Ford Field and FC Cincinnati had the option to play at Nippert permanently.  Instead, they'll get corporate welfare to build what turns out to be a needless stadium. 

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/soccer/fc-cincinnati/2018/05/29/garber-q/652714002/

 

So for those out there accusing me of starting and fanning conspiracy theories, rest assured that there is WAY more going on with anything Lindner/Berding/Cranley/3CDC are up to than they will say publicly.

 

I read that interview as well and don’t view anything nefarious and certainly no conspiracy. Ford Field might be viable (with some modifications) since it would be owned by the same owners as a potential future Detroit MLS club. I personally wish we could have made Nippert work, but due to the ownership structure of Nippert, MLS wouldn’t allow a new team to play long-term at a facility they didn’t own and control. Atlanta was able to have a shared NFL/MLS because the teams have the same owner (similar to Detroit). Yes, a new stadium means FCC will have more political leverage to ask for public funds, both now and in the future. But again - you don’t have to view it as some kind of hidden conspiracy. Jeff Berding has spent most of the last year asking for public funds. It’s not exactly a secret.

 

The Crew at the 'Shoe was a thing for several years until Mapfre opened.

Nippert was not dismissed out-of-hand.  According to this quote, it was seriously considered:

 

" To see this sort of urban rebirth of a great, historic community [OTR and the West End], it really warms my heart. And to think that this is where our stadium’s going to be has us very, very excited. We looked at other sites and we looked at Nippert and the renovation of Nippert and Carl and Jeff and [MLS Deputy Commish] Mark [Abbott] and I and other said that if you have an opportunity to make an investment that can be part of the rebirth of a community, it gives your team legacy that goes far beyond kicking the ball and scoring goal."

 

We heard endlessly for the past year that MLS wasn't going to let any future franchises play in an NFL stadium.  But it looks like Detroit is going to get away with it. 

 

 

We heard endlessly for the past year that MLS wasn't going to let any future franchises play in an NFL stadium.  But it looks like Detroit is going to get away with it. 

 

That's far from a certainty.

 

Your endless conspiracy theories are nauseating.

We heard endlessly for the past year that MLS wasn't going to let any future franchises play in an NFL stadium.  But it looks like Detroit is going to get away with it.

 

Atlanta, who joined the MLS just last year, plays in an NFL stadium. As with the two other NFL stadium teams (New England, Seattle), the team is co-owned by its respective NFL owner.

Jake - I think you are reading into it. The quote said they looked at a number of sites and they looked at Nippert. It was already revealed they dismissed Nippert and the renovation of Nippert as a viable possibility. The other sites were looked at as well. West End showed to be the best site for all parties involved. I think the article it not well written and therefore, the inference you are making, while reasonable is not necessarily accurate.

That's far from a certainty.

 

Your endless conspiracy theories are nauseating.

 

I called that this was coming to the West End months before just about anyone else.  I called the land swap.  I called that they'd come back to CPS with more money after the bluff.  People made fun of me here and elsewhere but I was right.  Plus, I'm going to make over $50,000 on the land I bought for $10,000 near the stadium.  My only error was not buying more when I had the chance. 

We heard endlessly for the past year that MLS wasn't going to let any future franchises play in an NFL stadium.  But it looks like Detroit is going to get away with it. 

 

That's far from a certainty.

 

Your endless conspiracy theories are nauseating.

 

Nauseating? That’s a bit much. I find the conspiracy theories entertaining, even if I don’t always agree with them.

Cincinnati got the last pro franchise it will ever be awarded.

Besides NE is looking to build a soccer specific stadium in Boston. NYCFC is also looking to build a SSS, which will probably just leave Seattle and Atlanta, both whom control the stadium. I'd rather FCC stay in the USL and play at Nippert then move to PBS. That place would be awful for FCC. Detroit might get a pass for a few years but in the end they'll require a SSS or they'll have make massive renovations like ripping the roof off and planting grass (which the Lions won't want). That's assuming they'll get a team. Phoenix, Las Vegas, San Diego, Raleigh and Sacramento still remain as possible major players for the next expansion in a few years.

 

WVXU breaks down what should be obvious to everyone, MLS and FCC wanted the West End the rest was just noise:

http://wvxu.org/post/how-fc-cincinnati-jeff-berding-and-carl-lindner-iii-got-everything-they-wanted

MLS saying they looked at seeing how Nippert could possibly work does not equal MLS saying Nippert was an acceptable venue to get Cincy a bid.  Nippert and Paul Brown were never going to be acceptable, it was new stadium or no MLS bid. 

Cincinnati got the last pro franchise it will ever be awarded.

 

There's a good chance in about five years that FCC will start a NWSL team (top women's soccer league). A lot of the other MLS teams have been entering that league. Portland has been especially successful, averaging 17,000 a game, almost as much as the men's team. As a side note, their team name - Portland Thorns - is one of my favorite in all of sports (Portland is known as the Rose City).

^ Given the popularity of womens soccer in Cincinnati and the professional players who have come from this area, it would be a natural fit. IT will mean the stadium gets used another 20 times a year too, and cover the overhead even more. It is probably part of the business plan. Heck, they may even give Heather Mitts an ownership interest

^ Given the popularity of womens soccer in Cincinnati and the professional players who have come from this area, it would be a natural fit. IT will mean the stadium gets used another 20 times a year too, and cover the overhead even more. It is probably part of the business plan. Heck, they may even give Heather Mitts an ownership interest

and cincy could be "the terror tiaras" or maybe the tiara terroists"

they may even give Heather Mitts an ownership interest

 

The Cincinnati Hot Metts

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I just want to reiterate that the claim that "the new stadium is being built entirely with private money" is BS. Out of the $35 million being spent on "infrastructure", a little over $5 million is being spent on site preparation — demolishing the existing buildings that are on that site, doing environmental remediation, surveying, installation of construction fencing, and other related costs. In any other construction project, these costs are considered to be a part of the overall project cost, not part of the "infrastructure" that the city is responsible for.

 

The remaining $30 million will be spent on the new parking garage and road infrastructure.

Also, it is now official that Cincinnati Public Radio is looking for a new home. They probably suspect (if they haven't already been given official notice) that they're going to get evicted from their current building (which they share with WCET) so that the city can knock it and build the new FCC parking garage there.

 

One other thought: if WVXU and WCET both leave that block, it eliminates one of the reasons to rebuild the skywalk, since there will not be a need for audio/video cables linking the studios to Music Hall.

North College Hill is apperantly forming a competitive bid to win the fcc practice facility.

Interesting.  I hadn't heard/seen anything regarding NCH and the FCC practice facility. 

 

I can assure you that FCC has invested a considerable amount of energy and money for a facility that is not in NCH.  I'm not gonna reveal where exactly the current proposed practice facility is to be located, but it has been correctly mentioned by other folks online outside of this message board. 

Interesting.  I hadn't heard/seen anything regarding NCH and the FCC practice facility. 

 

I can assure you that FCC has invested a considerable amount of energy and money for a facility that is not in NCH.  I'm not gonna reveal where exactly the current proposed practice facility is to be located, but it has been correctly mentioned by other folks online outside of this message board.

 

Tied into the HQ one county over?

So some good news on the West End Stadium front....

 

1) Stadium will be multi purpose and will host concerts (PromoWest?) and other matches (Im guessing US National Games, maybe highschool soccer matches?) throughout the year. It will be a space that will try to be maximized in usage.

 

2) Capacity has shot up from 21k...current rumor is fcc will try to start with 25k for 2021 opening season.

DC's Audi Field is about to open in a few weeks... but it seems like somebody failed to realize that late afternoon/evening sun would shine directly into the cameras, which are set up in the east grandstand. I don't know why they put the media booths in the east grandstand. I sure hope FCC's stadium puts the media on the west side of the stadium, so that we don't have to deal with late afternoon sun shining into the cameras.

 

http://dcist.com/2018/06/is_dc_united_ready_for_its_close-up.php

 

 

FC paid $750,000 for Parkway Automotive, closed on June 7:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1110611,-84.5206827,3a,75y,293.49h,77.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sko9U658u56RighShrByagA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

FC still does not own the old theater...sold to current owners in 1993 for $53,000:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.11084,-84.5220031,3a,75y,35.03h,94.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sscywzY43Ho_UTdc4pUrt-Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656