Latest Planning Commission Packet, starting on Page 16: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/aug-17-2018-packet/

 

The Commission recommends the sale of City-owned property in Lower Price Hill to Tri-State Wholesale Building Supplies, which implies (doesn't take a genius to figure it out) that FC Cincinnati is acquiring the current Tri-State building at the corner of Liberty and Central Parkway.

 

I'm not sure if/how this will change the stadium's site plan, or they'll use the Tri-State building/land for parking/development.

 

 

Doesn’t that building border the Cincinnati ballet building?

 

I have to imagine that fcc is probably pushing efforts to have Cincy ballet relocate in order to acquire that space.

Latest Planning Commission Packet, starting on Page 16: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/aug-17-2018-packet/

 

The Commission recommends the sale of City-owned property in Lower Price Hill to Tri-State Wholesale Building Supplies, which implies (doesn't take a genius to figure it out) that FC Cincinnati is acquiring the current Tri-State building at the corner of Liberty and Central Parkway.

 

I'm not sure if/how this will change the stadium's site plan, or they'll use the Tri-State building/land for parking/development.

 

 

Doesn’t that building border the Cincinnati ballet building?

 

I have to imagine that fcc is probably pushing efforts to have Cincy ballet relocate in order to acquire that space.

 

The family that owns Tri-State also owns the Ballet building and the property to the south. Ballet has already announced that they are in long term planning to find a new location in the next 4-5 years.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/08/29/cincinnati-ballet-hunting-for-new-larger-facility.html

It's Aug 21 and no closings near the stadium.  Lighthouse Ministries still owns the big theater on Central Ave. 

 

No updated renderings or site plan. 

There is a now a rumor that FC Cincinnati has a bunch of property around the stadium under contract and it will all close in January 2019.  They're doing this so there are no comparable sales.  Nobody knows what anyone else is getting.  Apparently the Jehovah's Witnesses are under contract, as is the church at the corner of John St. and Liberty St. (this church also owns the parking lot between Bauer and Wade).  FC is also coming after the various buildings that dot Wade and Bauer. So it looks like the worst-case scenario of everything or almost everything being torn for parking might really be coming to pass. 

^thats disturbing if the rumor about the church all the way at Liberty and John is true. That is WAY too heavy handed and disruptive to the neighborhood and taking up an unnecessarily huge footprint. Bull in a china shop.

 

Wade and Bauer right there AREN’T blighted, (in contrast to what I would consider blight, around Oliver and Poplar streets to the north,) with good buildings and good urbanism, just in need of some infill structures to become the equal of any street in Over the Rhine.

 

If FCC can’t do this with finesse and respect for what’s already there in the neighborhood I don’t think I can remain a fan.

 

I'm actually glad to hear that the churches are under contract. I'd definitely like to see the handful of historic buildings on Wade/Bauer saved, but there's quick a bit of junk that could be torn down (like the tire store facing Liberty) that I wouldn't mind if replaced with higher quality infill. As long as they maintain the street grid of Wade, Bauer and John (big IFs)... this has the potential to connect over to the Laurel Playground area. If those churches HADN'T sold, then they would have maintained their surface parking lots forever probably.

But what we’re taking about at Liberty and John is a beautiful historic church that might get torn down now. Moreover, it’s a link to the community FCC says they want to be a part of. I understand buying out a used tire place but this is entirely different!

 

Re: the surface lot, maybe they could have worked a deal for garage parking? If not big whoop, I’d rather have the church & parking lot than no church. (Even IF the church is excited about selling I’d prefer the historic part of the building be preserved.)

 

 

the church is old. things change. the corner of liberty and Central Parkway is ugly in every sense of the word. the church can move. the tire store can move. Or the city can turn that corner back to a cobble stoned street. we can rename the area Amish Corner and remove all the electricity for 5 city blocks. then you can take your drone and video horse and buggys, herds of chickens, wheel rights and blacksmiths and water troughs. Sounds like a plan.

the church is old. things change. the corner of liberty and Central Parkway is ugly in every sense of the word. the church can move. the tire store can move. Or the city can turn that corner back to a cobble stoned street. we can rename the area Amish Corner and remove all the electricity for 5 city blocks. then you can take your drone and video horse and buggys, herds of chickens, wheel rights and blacksmiths and water troughs. Sounds like a plan.

 

 

Awwww, bless your heart.

 

I have the feeling if the Reds stadium would have been at Broadway Commons, most of Pendlelton would have been bulldozed.

Anybody know when the unsympathetic cinderblock addition was added to the Revelation Baptist Church? Are the original facade and windows still in tact?

^ Looks like a 1970s job to me.

The interior seems like they’ve changed it pretty dramatically with the pulpit now centered along the southern wall. I’m curious if the stained glass windows on the northern wall were preserved when they got covered up with the addition. Found this pic on Instagram (see third photo) which I think is looking towards the southern wall:

So I looked up the history of that "historic church" on John Street. Lots of stuff about the evangelical or Emmanual lutheran church in just about every city except Cincy. so i added the address and cincinnati to the search. nada, zilch, nothing about that historical church. The lutherans left (we aint worshiping our god around no stinking poor people). And the Baptist are happy to sale. . So what we have is an old building that is in a rundown area. Surrounded by a recreated westend area and on the other side OTR is being reclaimed keeping some of its roots (building facades). What we have is an eyesore. Luckily for everyone, most of this blight will be torn down and a new major league team will bring the potential for economic growth, a beautiful new sports stadium, hotel, businesses, excitement and rejuvenation to this pitiful part of town. Sam Adams can building a wall or plant trees. Keep the BBQ joint for color. Oh, and as far as liberty goes. Keep it the way it is, people can learn to cross the street and drivers can learn to slow down if someone is in their way. Cincinnati doesn't need to control drivers by narrowing streets. Especially historical streets like Liberty.

.

"Historical" Liberty was two lanes wide. It was widened to 7 lanes in modern times.

"Historical" Liberty was two lanes wide. It was widened to 7 lanes in modern times.

 

why didn't someone save the bridge at liberty and central park... now that would be something to keep. churches are like santas at christmas.... everybody has one. and mr. taestell, that was a bit of humor. if asphalt is historical then we are in big trouble. think of all the signage that would need to be put up. I have trouble believing that Liberty has the same significance as Abbey Lane.

I think I understand to an extent what rj is saying...we are so of ocd about certain historical structures on urban Ohio, almost to a fault. I full heartedly believe that cities aren’t museums, and that not every structure that is old is also equivalent to being historic and valuable.

 

I do believe we must focus on a balance between planning for the future, but also respecting the past....to some extent at least...

 

I haven't seen this attitude very much recently, but 10-15 years ago you would frequently see/hear people saying things like "they should just demolish OTR and start over" -- because they did not see the value in saving these vacant, burnt out shells of buildings. Well, imagine what the neighborhood would be like today if we would have let that happen, and it was rebuilt with all modern architecture laid out in Dallas Donut-style megablocks. It would be nowhere near as successful as it is today. People like places with character. They enjoy hanging out and spending time in places with character. Look at how a place like The Banks is struggling, but all of these neighborhood business districts across the city (Northside, Pleasant Ridge, Bellevue KY, etc.) are flourishing. The Banks doesn't have character and those other places do.

 

I fully agree that cities are not museums and you can't save everything. I am fine with projects like 15th & Vine that saved what they could save from the old buildings and fill in the gaps with new, modern-looking construction. I think it's fine that a few old buildings will be demolished to build the stadium. But to say that FCC should just level that whole part of the West End because it's gross and who cares about that history anyway... yeah, no.

I see the church like I see the large red warehouse behind District 1 that FCC also wants. It seems to me as greedy and an ego thing to say we have ALL this area in this megablock for our development alone. Both of those buildings arent spectacular bits of history or architecture but they add to the interest of the area and differentiate it from any bare plot in the suburbs. They wanted to be in the city, they like that their fans want to be in the city, the appreciate what the city offers to the teams image, they also paid lip service to being a good neighbor. It would be nice if they didnt then march in and level everything within view so that they controlled and planned and sanitized everything so much that you didnt know you were even in the city anymore. that warehouse and church could be assets to the look and feel of the area. Maybe the church could be a team shop or something so that they could control it but there is no need to tear down one of the few surviving things that escaped the HUD era  and the I-75 demolitions just to clean the entire slate for FCC. Same for the warehouse. it helps having a smaller structure like it as a buffer between Music Hall and the soon to be massive stadium too, which may be the reason they wanted it but i like the thought that the people in those lofts could have some killer FCC parties kinda like the buildings by Wrigley Field.    https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1128522,-84.5239569,3a,90y,6.32h,112.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf-oXehB2E2tTgcHOwg79zQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I believe that The Cubs now own all or almost all of the buildings around Wrigley Field.  Hopefully, if FC is in fact seeking merely to control 100% of their immediate surroundings, then they will have the good sense not to tear everything down. 

 

Some of you know that I personally own two adjacent vacant lots in the area, 411 & 413 Bauer.  I'm going to wait until a full site plan appears before I decide what to do with them. When I bought them I thought about building a house.  If FC goes nuclear and tries to tear everything down I might hang on to the lots to be a pain in their ass and force them to build around me. 

 

I haven't seen this attitude very much recently, but 10-15 years ago you would frequently see/hear people saying things like "they should just demolish OTR and start over" -- because they did not see the value in saving these vacant, burnt out shells of buildings. Well, imagine what the neighborhood would be like today if we would have let that happen, and it was rebuilt with all modern architecture laid out in Dallas Donut-style megablocks. It would be nowhere near as successful as it is today. People like places with character. They enjoy hanging out and spending time in places with character. Look at how a place like The Banks is struggling, but all of these neighborhood business districts across the city (Northside, Pleasant Ridge, Bellevue KY, etc.) are flourishing. The Banks doesn't have character and those other places do.

 

I fully agree that cities are not museums and you can't save everything. I am fine with projects like 15th & Vine that saved what they could save from the old buildings and fill in the gaps with new, modern-looking construction. I think it's fine that a few old buildings will be demolished to build the stadium. But to say that FCC should just level that whole part of the West End because it's gross and who cares about that history anyway... yeah, no.

 

 

20 years ago I was advocating for the gentrification of OTR. After the city tore down the Mertin Printing co. and other buildings in the area I suggested creating a permanent Octoberfest Park on the site where FCC will build. The idea was to create a place that all those street festivals that clog our streets could have an event area. The FCC area is already leveled. go take a look.

I see the church like I see the large red warehouse behind District 1 that FCC also wants. It seems to me as greedy and an ego thing to say we have ALL this area in this megablock for our development alone. Both of those buildings arent spectacular bits of history or architecture but they add to the interest of the area and differentiate it from any bare plot in the suburbs. They wanted to be in the city, they like that their fans want to be in the city, the appreciate what the city offers to the teams image, they also paid lip service to being a good neighbor. It would be nice if they didnt then march in and level everything within view so that they controlled and planned and sanitized everything so much that you didnt know you were even in the city anymore. that warehouse and church could be assets to the look and feel of the area. Maybe the church could be a team shop or something so that they could control it but there is no need to tear down one of the few surviving things that escaped the HUD era  and the I-75 demolitions just to clean the entire slate for FCC. Same for the warehouse. it helps having a smaller structure like it as a buffer between Music Hall and the soon to be massive stadium too, which may be the reason they wanted it but i like the thought that the people in those lofts could have some killer FCC parties kinda like the buildings by Wrigley Field.    https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1128522,-84.5239569,3a,90y,6.32h,112.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sf-oXehB2E2tTgcHOwg79zQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

I see the "church" like like a large red warehouse too.

So we agree that they are like like assets to the urban fabric then, good to hear.

 

no they are like big red warehouses

So just because a building has unsympathetic alterations it should be demolished?  Are you one of the people who say the Dennison Hotel should've been torn down just because its windows were replaced with glass block?  Should Old St. George have been torn down when its steeples burned?  Should the Tyler Davidson Fountain have been scrapped when it rusted?  You realize those are easy things to fix, right? 

 

The point of preservation here is not to fix everything in amber, but also not to just tear stuff down because it's a little dirty.  If historic fabric can be saved and/or incorporated into the new development, great!  Why shouldn't it be done if it can be done?  If it can't be, fine, but you have to make the effort.  Historical assets are not usually appreciated until they're gone, and you can't put them back.  This blasé attitude about old buildings is why cities like Indianapolis, Kansas City, and even Columbus have so little historic fabric left.  Cincinnati only has what it does because it was such a big city so early on that the frighteningly huge amount of demolition still didn't wipe it all away.  Few cities are so lucky. 

jj if you are talking to me and I know you are not, The Dennison should have been torn down. And the cost repair TD Fountain was $1.5 million, that for me would be a lot of money. don't know the price of the new steeples but probably more than 1.99. the gent who suggested he didn't like the cinderblock addition didn't suggest it be torn down. And, almost anything can be fixed, all you need is money. We went to the moon in 9 years because we poured money into the project no questions asked. we could build the entire FCC stadium site around that "you people" church. All over the world people worship futbol. We should make it the one and only entrance point to the stadium. that way the tired and huddled masses can drop a few coins in the plate when the architect wants payment. If Gaudi were alive he probably would have great ideas for a sacred arena. Or, keep the building and have Gehry throw one of his facades around it. Then continue that motif, that theme, to encompass the entire project. Just think of it. Historic OTR, the Frank Gehry sacred arena, then the oh so typical midwest redevelopment in the westend.

Of course I'm talking to you, but you're being so deliberately obtuse it's not really worth the trouble. 

et tu jj?

Wasn't this old church building actually an old Synagogue? It is a remnant of when the West End was the epicenter of the Jewish community. It was built at this location in 1866 for the Holy Congregation Brethren In Love. At that time Bauer was known as Melancthon.  The Congregation was earlier located at 15th and Race as Holy Congregation United Brethren. As a touchstone of the history of the West End, a bridge to the past when it was a vital part of the Jewish chapter and then the AA experience, and possibly now a bridge to a new vision for the WE, this building deserves to be saved.  just my 2 cents worth.

 

It wasn't a touchstone when the lutherans or baptists used that building. But, now a touchstone! And you know what else... before 1866 it was a native american sacred site for annual pow wows. and before that the hopewell group built beautiful architectural mounds on that spot and before that the adena built their sacred places right there in the westend. and before that who knows. probably something really important. But, it was enlighting. not only did the lutherans and baptists leave, even the jews left.I think there is something strange about this whole thing. Suddenly, a building becomes the temple mount west. A year ago, no one gave a crap.

The Sanborn Maps show it as a church. I think this Sanborn map was originally published in 1904, but the cover page shows revisions up through 1930, so I'm not sure if there's any easy way to tell if/when it changed from a synagogue to a church: http://digital.cincinnatilibrary.org/digital/collection/p16998coll9/id/3405

 

For what it's worth, the auditor's site says it was built in 1900: https://wedge3.hcauditor.org/view/re/134-0001-0197-90/2017/summary

 

Assuming the windows on the north facade are still there, it'd be awesome if somebody with deep pockets would go through the (considerable) effort to remove the addition and renovate the church.

1900 is the Auditor's default "we don't really know" date.  The building has a dedication stone up high on the front wall, but I can't read it on Google Maps.  1866 does sound right from cincity's description.  Most of those dedication stones were placed like that on buildings from the 1840s-1870s.  It even looks like it could be written in Hebrew.  https://goo.gl/maps/Pqg6RTjUkQ82

An 1887Sanborn Map shows it as a Synagogue.  From gleening  the Enquirer files, I guess it was aka the John Street Temple.  https://sanborn-ohioweblibrary-org.research.cincinnatilibrary.org/viewer/?id=4842

 

Pretty sure 'a year ago' that residents of the West End who know the church is an important neighborhood asset cared....as well as the people who attend and belong to the church.

 

It wasn't a touchstone when the lutherans or baptists used that building. But, now a touchstone! And you know what else... before 1866 it was a native american sacred site for annual pow wows. and before that the hopewell group built beautiful architectural mounds on that spot and before that the adena built their sacred places right there in the westend. and before that who knows. probably something really important. But, it was enlighting. not only did the lutherans and baptists leave, even the jews left.I think there is something strange about this whole thing. Suddenly, a building becomes the temple mount west. A year ago, no one gave a crap.

i think they sold it or will when FCC makes an offer

CPS has announced that the new Stargel replacement will be completed in time for the 2019 football season. Not sure what that means in terms of when demolition will begin on the current stadium, but I'd guess demo would begin in late spring 2019 when spring sports wrap up.

 

http://www.iamcps.org/2018/08/29/cps-board-unveils-expansion-plans-for-cans-westwood-campus-stargel-stadium/

Finally, a closing.  The vacant lot at 419 Wade just sold for $28,000 to "Central Development LLC". 

https://wedge.hcauditor.org/view/re/1340001025800/2017/summary

 

Central Development LLC uses 407 Vine St. as its address, the same as "West End Ventures". 

Maybe we will see a rendering of the stadium once they demolish the Stargel Stadium and they need to do an Emergency Ordinance to get it through the design process to play the season opener in time!

This article confirms that a) stadium design is still underway with various options still being explored, b) they have acquired the land up to the Liberty/Central Parkway intersection, c) the county-financed garage would go at the corner of Liberty (not clear if that means re-purposing the existing warehouse building or tearing down and starting over), and d) the City has not made any final decisions regarding the CET building:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/2018/08/30/fc-cincinnati-building-mls-franchise-monumental-challenge-jeff-berding/1111990002/

 

 

Berding said early plans for the $15 million county-financed garage have it on West Liberty Street, where a warehouse now sits.

 

It's expected parking revenue will go to Hamilton County, except on match days when FC Cincinnati will pocket the revenue.

Also interesting they have the Ballet building under contract, and the ripple effect of the Ballet building a new facility and the location of it.

Sorry, but where is the ballet moving to?  I'm having a senior moment.

Sorry, but where is the ballet moving to?  I'm having a senior moment.

Nothing has been announced yet. They've been looking for a new space (ideally in the CBD between the Aronoff and Music Hall).

They better have some sort of development fronting that parking garage or it's going to be a massive eyesore and missed opportunity at that corner.

 

My suggestion would be to put in ground-level retail with Lisnr and FC's offices on top.

 

 

They better have some sort of development fronting that parking garage or it's going to be a massive eyesore and missed opportunity at that corner.

 

My suggestion would be to put in ground-level retail with Lisnr and FC's offices on top.

 

I believe they have said they want to create a mixed use destination type area around the stadium, but i fear that it will be garages and a stadium and all else an after thought. Hope i am wrong though.

Oakley Station is technically a "mixed use destination type area."

I still don't understand why the ballet building can't be in Queensgate or West End. Same with WVXU.

 

I also hope the stadium development fronts Liberty well.

Oakley Station is technically a "mixed use destination type area."

 

Yea but MLS folks saw that and said no way. Surely Berding and his crew realize that the MLS wants urbanism.

I believe they have said they want to create a mixed use destination type area around the stadium, but i fear that it will be garages and a stadium and all else an after thought. Hope i am wrong though.

 

I'm worried that this is going to end up looking like a casino. 

Oakley Station is technically a "mixed use destination type area."

 

Yea but MLS folks saw that and said no way. Surely Berding and his crew realize that the MLS wants urbanism.

 

thats assuming they all have a nuanced understanding of what urbanism is. They might (likely) just look around and say “we’re in the city, so it’s urban, right?”