What if the ballet moves to the IRS site?

IF FCC moved forward on a site they didn't totally control, it's their own fault.  They may either have to pony up or try and get the City to condemn the property, which I am not sure they would have the authority to do in this case.  Whatever happens it will cost them money or a lot of time.

 

They just paid $25 million for the Tri-State property, by far the largest sum they have paid to date per square foot.  So they got the majority of the property they needed for almost free (the land swap that I anticipated here on Urban Ohio in early or mid-2017 + the free land from Cincinnati Police District 1), but had to pay the piper on a few other key properties.  They keep trying to strong-arm people but they've shown so many cards at this point that only a spectacular sucker would take their first offer.  

 

Meanwhile, the soccer nerds naively worship Berding and the ownership. 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 20186 yr by jmecklenborg

9 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

They just paid $25 million for the Tri-State property, by far the largest sum they have paid to date per square foot.  So they got the majority of the property they needed for almost free (the land swap that I anticipated here on Urban Ohio in early or mid-2017 + the free land from Cincinnati Police District 1), but had to pay the piper on a few other key properties.  They keep trying to strong-arm people but they've shown so many cards at this point that only a spectacular sucker would take their first offer.  

 

Meanwhile, the soccer nerds naively worship Berding and the ownership. 

 

 

FCC is getting one of the best soccer specific stadiums in one of the best locations in the country while paying for ~85% of the project.  Meanwhile the city is getting a third professional team who's moving into/close to a hugely popular neighborhood in the urban core, the team is helping the citizens in their new area with the community benefits agreement plus the addition of new affordable housing and the city isn't hamstrung with owning another stadium.  I'd say it's worked out pretty well for everyone involved unless you're completely on one side or the other.  

The City of Cincinnati is draining its emergency fund to contribute to this project.  It's insane. 

Ahem, "Rainy Day Fund"

"Third professional team" until the Bengals leave in 2035.

The Bengals are not going to leave.  They are never named on any of the "NFL franchises most likely to move" lists in large part because the Browns own the entire team.  There is no "ownership group".  It is just The Brown family.  Many of the franchise moves are motivated by minority shareholders, not majority shareholders.  Most notably, the minority owners of The Browns backed Art Modell into a corner and forced his hand in the move to Baltimore. 

 

Plus both the Rams and Chargers paid $645 Million to the NFL for a relocation fee. Mike Brown is not spending that kind of money to move. All 3 teams are here for life. FCC is a great addition and was the project is a good use of the some of the Blue Ash Airport sale money, now if only the Bengals and Reds could figure out that whole winning the playoffs thing.

Edited October 26, 20186 yr by cincydave8

4 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

 

 

FCC is getting one of the best soccer specific stadiums in one of the best locations in the country while paying for ~85% of the project.  Meanwhile the city is getting a third professional team who's moving into/close to a hugely popular neighborhood in the urban core, the team is helping the citizens in their new area with the community benefits agreement plus the addition of new affordable housing and the city isn't hamstrung with owning another stadium.  I'd say it's worked out pretty well for everyone involved unless you're completely on one side or the other.  

all in all its a great win for the city, county and tri-state area. the tri-state building and the ballet will just look completely hideous beside the new stadium and otr area. if the naysayers would just give up on trying to turn their cause into some sort of religion, we can get back to enjoying seeing things change and watching the city grow. 

2 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

The City of Cincinnati is draining its emergency fund to contribute to this project.  It's insane. 

 

Whats ironic is that you made a reddit thread on fc cincinnati forum about how to best utilize your land that you own that’s located right next to the stadium.

 

Your one of the few on this forum who are poised to profit most out of any of us from fcc stadium being located in the west end.

Yeah thanks to the sleazy tactic of delaying closing dates until 2019, people thought that my lots were already under contract with the Port Authority, and so I hadn't received any unsolicited offers in months.  I posted what I posted in reddit in a FSBO attempt, but of course mildly disguised as an honest question. 

 

The ownership & Berding have gone about all of this in the most classless way imaginable, but the fans are giving these guys a free pass.  That definitely was not the case back in 1996. 

County considers multiple sites for FC Cincinnati stadium parking

 

Hamilton County is considering more than one site when it comes to parking garages for FC Cincinnati’s Major League Soccer stadium in the West End, but it is waiting on the completion of a financial analysis before a decision is made.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/10/30/county-considers-multiple-sites-for-fc-cincinnati.html

I just really hope that the area around the stadium is built out in a cohesive way, and is not just a strange collection of structures based on what parcels the team, city, and county were able to acquire.

14 hours ago, taestell said:

I just really hope that the area around the stadium is built out in a cohesive way, and is not just a strange collection of structures based on what parcels the team, city, and county were able to acquire.

Agreed. I was happy to hear during the last press release that FCC and Turner seemed to understand that big advantage of being in an urban environment is that they don't need the parking to be directly adjacent to the stadium, and that it's actually better (makes game day experience more fun, spreads traffic out, reduces cost of building parking that sits empty most of the time) if the parking facilities are scattered throughout the urban basin and shared with other uses. I'm glad that the County seems to be on the same page, and doesn't want to invest in a garage that only serves FCC parking. In the end, it will depends not only on choosing the right location(s), but also on the site plan(s) for how the parking integrates with the surrounding buildings and parcels, to encourage a diversity of uses. 

 

 

I know a lot of people are concerned about the light from the new stadium, but if these photos from Allianz Field in Minnesota are any indication, it isn't going to be a protruding light. Their stadium has a similar exterior to FCC's proposed stadium. I know I saw photos closer up to the stadium, but I can't find them at the moment. The ground directly next to the stadium doesn't have a blue glow, so the light isn't going to be terrible for neighbors IMO.

 

Our renderings showed a lot of light going off in all directions, but that just simply isn't the case. I think the team did themselves a disservice by worrying people about the light pollution.

 

Anybody know if the canopies of the new FCC stadium will have some mechanism for blocking the sun? Allianz Arena (in Munich) is wrapped in ETFE like FCC's stadium will be, and at Allianz they have retractable shades, presumably so that when it's sunny and hot, they can limit solar gain and the greenhouse effect.

 

Not sure exactly. I would be surprised if they have the money for retractable shades under the canopy, but I'm not positive.

 

All of the seats will be protected from rain, though. Only the field will be exposed, so if it's raining, everyone should be able to watch the game without getting wet (unless it's really windy).

Probably going to have taxpayers kick in more for shades.

Demolition of Stargell Stadium has begun:

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/2018/11/06/students-find-stargel-locker-rooms-trashed-cps-takes-responsibility/1905227002/

Denolition has not only begun on stargel stadium but also of the buildings across the street.

Edited November 18, 20186 yr by Ucgrad2015

Some peculiar news to pass along.  The two condos on Wade St. that had been under contract for months are now back on the market.  So any assumption that they were being gobbled up by the team's development arm was incorrect. 

 

418 Wade #1:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1574139/418-Wade-St-1-Cincinnati-OH-45214

 

418 Wade #2:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1574140/418-Wade-St-2-Cincinnati-OH-45214

 

 

In other news, the vacant lots that back up to this condo development which I personally own are under contract:

https://www.sibcycline.com/Listing/CIN/1601262/411-413-Bauer-Ave-Cincinnati-OH-45214

 

I can't disclose the price or the buyer but I can say that the buyer is *not* the team or anyone who I believe is directly affiliated with the team. 

 

 

I was amazed to run across a 1981 photo of the State Theater and see how much the building has declined since it closed in 1985: 

 

http://americanclassicimages.com/Default.aspx?tabid=141&txtSearch=cincinnati&catpageindex=2&catpagesize=25&ProductID=31733

 

The tile roof and old "Metropolitan" title block added a lot to the building.

Not sure when the asphalt roof and loss of the metropolitan facade happened, but in this pic from 1986 it still looked pretty good too. I never saw it till the 1990's so to me it has always looked like it did for most of its life as the church but your right that it faded fast.

 

 

Edited November 25, 20186 yr by SleepyLeroy

Glazed brick is so difficult to repair or replace and not look obvious.  Once a building stops being heated the freeze/thaw wreaks havoc on it.  Normally in these old buildings the heat from inside bleeds out enough that it keeps the bricks warmer and drier.  That's why the parapets are the first to go, which you can see even in the 1981 photo.  They aren't kept warm and are more exposed, so ice shatters the glazing.  There's a house at Victory Parkway and Francis Lane in a similar state.  The body of the house is fine, but the front porch and chimneys (which I'm sure haven't seen fires in years) are in a bad state.  https://goo.gl/maps/aRfs1QbMiiD2  There's some very similar detailing and overall compositional elements between the house and the theater, I wouldn't be surprised if they came out of the same office.  

 

All that said, the theater really doesn't seem all that bad when you look close.  Yes the south parapet has fractured brick, and the blue/green tile accents are rough (they look like green tiles that were painted blue at a later date), but the rest of what makes the facade look bad is the peeling and rusting pressed tin detail work on the cornices and balustrades.  If that was painted and the windows uncovered then it wouldn't look all that much different than the 1981 photo, save for the loss of the tile roof and the Metropolitan name, which was probably tin as well.  In fact, the roof tiles could also have been tin, I've run into that on a building from the same time period.  

Some new details: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/11/26/fc-cincinnati-major-league-soccer-west-end-stadium-plans-central-parkway-closure-gamedays-possible/2085565002/

 

Quote

 

The stadium itself will not be taller than 110 feet above the playing field, with no more than 26,500 seats. The original plan unveiled in October called for the stadium to be 10 feet taller, but that was preliminary. To understand how tall a 110-foot building is, the stadium will be a couple feet shorter than the seven-story former Alms and Doepke department building at the northeast corner of Central Parkway and Main Street in Over-the-Rhine. 

 

The stadium's main entrance will be on the east side or Central Parkway side of the stadium, where an entrance plaza will be built for pre-game and post-game programming. The new plans show four of the stadium's seven gates are on the east side of the stadium, giving access to two-thirds of the stadium's seats. Two of the gates are directly off Central Parkway. That's where the block of the parkway between 15th and Wade streets comes into play. No decision has been made about closing what is a major thoroughfare on game days, but it's under consideration for pedestrian safety purposes. Plans show 14th, 15th, Magnolia and Odeon streets in Over-the-Rhine would be barricaded at the parkway, preventing through traffic from the east. More details on walkways and pedestrian safety are expected next month.

 

The majority of the parking –  5,300 spaces are required under city code – is outside the development, according to a Nov. 8 memo. (See full document below.) FC Cincinnati still needs the county to build a parking garage at Liberty Street and Central Parkway. County officials voted to build a garage near the site, but those details are still being worked out and will likely not be the 1,000-space garage that was promised. Discussions now are centered on a garage half that size, which might not be ready when the stadium opens. Parking is a paramount concern for neighborhood residents, who don't want residential streets filled with fan cars. The city could curb these parkers with a neighborhood parking pass program. An update on the parking plan, including possibly shuttling up to 1,900 fans per game from a parking lot in Queensgate, is expected next month.

 

The plans include future development at the corner of Wade Street and Central Parkway and another on Central Parkway itself. The developments, which would not be taller than six stories, could include a hotel, bars, daycare, food market and a cultural institution. These would be built by outside developers, not the team itself. The plans are preliminary only, but FC Cincinnati wants the initial planning commission approval to incorporate what could come later.

 

The stadium will be used for FC Cincinnati games, exhibition matches, as well as concerts, rallies and community events. The plans lists 25 home matches, up to eight additional exhibition events, up to four concerts and up to four field-based community events. The concerts are expected to come later. but are part of the plans submitted to the city.

 

 

Central Ave. has been barricaded.  It's about to get real, people. 

4 hours ago, oudd said:

Some new details: https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2018/11/26/fc-cincinnati-major-league-soccer-west-end-stadium-plans-central-parkway-closure-gamedays-possible/2085565002/

 

 

 

The last few paragraphs is why I fought so hard for fcc to land in the West end. Having a new block of development which could hotels/food markets is great for the West end and otr. 

 

Tourism is becoming a very big reality for otr and Airbnb units are flooding otr. Some of that could be tampered down some if we could see some hotels in the West end by Central Park way. 

FC Cincinnati eyes development around new stadium, updates plans

 

FC Cincinnati envisions future development on at least two sites near its new $200 million-plus soccer stadium to be built in the West End starting later this year, according to its new preliminary stadium plan.

 

FC Cincinnati's new plan provides more details on the stadium’s seating plan, parking, traffic flow and how the stadium could be used for non-soccer events, according to media reports. FC Cincinnati officials and architects will submit the plan to the Cincinnati Planning Commission on Monday afternoon.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/11/26/fc-cincinnati-eyes-development-around-new-stadium.html

 

Here's when you'll see progress on FC Cincinnati's stadium construction

 

 

Construction work on the foundation of FC Cincinnati’s $200 million-plus stadium in the West End should begin in April, with steel to support the seating area due to begin rising above the site in September and completion slated for late January 2021.

 

Those are some of the key milestones outlined by Turner Construction Co. in a plan FC Cincinnati submitted to the Cincinnati Planning Commission on Monday afternoon.

 

Turner is shooting for March 6, 2021, to have the stadium ready to being hosting Major League Soccer games, assuming that Saturday is the opening date of the 2021 season.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/11/27/heres-when-youll-see-progress-on-fc-cincinnatis.html

Full 131 pages of planning documents have been posted: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/assets/File/FCC West End Stadium.pdf

 

Not sure if there's anything of interest in there beyond what's already been reported. I have mixed feelings about entirely shutting down a section of Central Parkway during games for pedestrian use only. It would be great if there was a solution that made the area more pedestrian friendly all the time and not just during events. But I'm not sure what can really be done with such a wide street. 

I would imagine the street would only be closed for about 1 hour starting at 45 minutes before kickoff, and then another 30-60 minutes at the end of the game. I don't know if they want to utilize the street for activities like they do at Sheakley Lawn. If they do that, then it would have to be shut down for several hours before the game.

Are they going to do this for midweek games as well as weekend?  Closing down the road before 6pm on a Wednesday night seems like a mistake. 

Of note in this packet are sections and elevations of the building, that of which have not been seen or shared yet. As a neighbor to this site, this has been the representation I have been waiting for to truly understand its impact on the immediate neighborhood. Because we've asked Elevar and Turner to produce some renderings that show the building from the street and they haven't, I'm planning to model it myself. Once I get some time to do this, I'll post some of those results as well.

The fact that the team wants to close Central Parkway might explain why they aren't so keen on narrowing Liberty Street.

10 minutes ago, taestell said:

The fact that the team wants to close Central Parkway might explain why they aren't so keen on narrowing Liberty Street.

 

It's pretty ridiculous that they are not only permanently closing Central Ave. (it closed on Monday) but expecting to also close Central Parkway on game days.  Plus, they'll likely be blocking off City West to non-residents and screwing around with John St. in some fashion on game days. 

 

I wouldn't put it past them to try and get the city to build some sort of permanent tailgating stuff out in the parkway median.  Oh, and drive some pipes down in the subway so now something else is down there to obstruct its conversion to transit. 

 

Interesting nugget. Parking study included 500 spaces from a new Hamilton County garage at Liberty and Central. But also this: “Hamilton County is considering a second garage constructed on the area of Findlay Market. Since the exact size and location of the second garage is unknown at this time, it is not included in this inventory.” Where would that go? 

2 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

Interesting nugget. Parking study included 500 spaces from a new Hamilton County garage at Liberty and Central. But also this: “Hamilton County is considering a second garage constructed on the area of Findlay Market. Since the exact size and location of the second garage is unknown at this time, it is not included in this inventory.” Where would that go? 

 

Under Central Parkway.  Ruin the subway forever. 

The elevations in this packet show a lot more exposed seating/structure than shown on the renderings, especially on the Northwest corner. In the birdseye rendering that is completely covered in the ETFE material, but in the renderings there are thinner bands of the ETFE with much more exposed structure. 

 

Edit: Also this shows the "future development" as a surface parking lot along Central Parkway. I'm always suspect of surface parking ever going away, so I would rather see that built as a stub structure waiting for tenants. 

Edited November 28, 20186 yr by ucgrady

Looks like it could be between Logan/Campbell/Elder or between Elder/Findlay/Central Parkway or maybe even the current Findlay Market lot?

4 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

Interesting nugget. Parking study included 500 spaces from a new Hamilton County garage at Liberty and Central. But also this: “Hamilton County is considering a second garage constructed on the area of Findlay Market. Since the exact size and location of the second garage is unknown at this time, it is not included in this inventory.” Where would that go? 

My guess would be that it would still be close to the stadium. Maybe where the old boys and girls club is? I know they are turning that into a parking lot for the time being but they may be working with the liberty and elm developers to put a garage there. 

As FC Cincinnati presents its development plans, still no resolution over key property’s fate

 

Days after sending its development plans to the city as well as showing them to leaders in Over-the-Rhine and the West End, FC Cincinnati has not resolved with the Cincinnati Ballet what will happen with its property and parking lot, which are key pieces of the development site.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/11/28/as-fc-cincinnati-presents-its-development-plans.html

1 hour ago, ucgrady said:

The elevations in this packet show a lot more exposed seating/structure than shown on the renderings, especially on the Northwest corner. In the birdseye rendering that is completely covered in the ETFE material, but in the renderings there are thinner bands of the ETFE with much more exposed structure. 

 

Edit: Also this shows the "future development" as a surface parking lot along Central Parkway. I'm always suspect of surface parking ever going away, so I would rather see that built as a stub structure waiting for tenants. 

I am pretty sure the parking along Central Parkway is 2 levels of structured parking, which might be partially underground. You can see ramps in the plans showing the parking on Level 1 and Level 2, and then the buildings and plaza will cover the parking on Levels 3 and up. 

At least 500 cars could be parked on Central Parkway itself between 14th and Wade. 

 

This would be interesting as part of the fight against building Central Parkway above the finished subway in the mid-1920s was that all of the informal parking spaces on the dirt above the tunnels would be lost. 

Also, the 400-space underground garage planned for the SW corner of Wade & Central Parkway will mostly serve whatever is built above it, likely a 150+ room hotel.  So between employees and guests, few spaces will remain for game day patrons. 

 

Plus, the vague 500-space county-built garage a block north could end up being a Dallas Donut situation -- or more accurately, a "Banks" situation where we have separate garages for residents in apartments and then game day/office. 

 

Also, look at the expected close date for Litehouse -- Dec 31, 2018.  So the rumors were true -- we're going to see tons of properties in that area close on or around that date, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, Revelation Baptist, Feast of Love, Odd Lots, etc. 

8 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Under Central Parkway.  Ruin the subway forever. 

If only it was part of their master plan to help fund a line using the subway tunnel with a stop right next to the stadium and then going through Clifton up to serve oakley/hyde park/mason/west chester since I remember reading most of the fans are from those areas...

I noticed for Wade St/Central Parkway future development, the document noted "Convenience/Food Market"

 

How much do you want to bet one of them will be a UDF convenience store that will appear eerily similar to the new UDF store on Short North in Columbus? 

 

If FCC follows through with the future development phase, I will be truly impressed. Adding a hotel, new residential, bars/restaurants, banks, Daycare, Office Space was something that West End, and Central Parkway needed. Even with the rapidly gentrifying state of OTR, I would've have never envisioned West End developing all of these institutions on its own in a  10-20 year time span. So for all of those naysayers about FCC being located in the West End, I say god bless FCC and the Lindners making the West End attractive and viable again. 

Edited November 29, 20186 yr by troeros

OTR really isn't gentrifying that fast.  I remember when one of my friends was last in town in 2012, we drove south on Vine and I pointed to the spot where the bars and restaurants started, and it has only crept a half block north in the ensuing six years.  Vine north of Liberty remains a no-man's land. 

2 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

OTR really isn't gentrifying that fast.  I remember when one of my friends was last in town in 2012, we drove south on Vine and I pointed to the spot where the bars and restaurants started, and it has only crept a half block north in the ensuing six years.  Vine north of Liberty remains a no-man's land. 

 

To be fair, it took 3cdc to be the first pioneers to invest in OTR and show a proof of concept. You can definitely see a wave of new investors both local and out of state begin to invest in otr. 

 

I will argue that while the gentrification of otr hasn't necessarily exploded compared to some east coast city neighborhoods, you can still see a quite intense push that's only been increasing year over year. 

 

I would also add that walking in otr during 2012, compared to today is literally night and day. Even in a year, just by adding a handful of restaurants and businesses, main Street feels so much more active and lively compared to last year when it was mostly dead during the day and weekdays. 

 

OTR is about small battles IMO. 

 

 

Edited November 29, 20186 yr by troeros

8 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

OTR really isn't gentrifying that fast.  I remember when one of my friends was last in town in 2012, we drove south on Vine and I pointed to the spot where the bars and restaurants started, and it has only crept a half block north in the ensuing six years.  Vine north of Liberty remains a no-man's land. 

While Vine St south of Liberty hasn't moved much north since 2012 the streets next to it between Race and Main have completely changed.  Back in 2012 you couldn't walk very safely except for Vine and Main and now that entire area is filled with developed buildings.  Once the Vine St Kroger is closed that will be when 3CDC makes their next total block investment.  I don't think anyone wants to make any large investments on buildings facing Liberty until the road diet is figured out. 

 

Vine north of Liberty is going to remain no man's land for a while until someone is brave enough to make a go at it.  At the current rate I don't think anyone is going to start something on Vine until the Findlay Market renovations creep all that way east.  Renovating Findlay Playground would also help convince people to spend money in that area.