When you look at the Oakley site, it's pretty obvious that they're actually going to have a serious land crunch.  The space simply is not there to do this unless they have the Cast-Fab land:

 

Cast-fab shut down last year, but who owns that land?  Is the city going to pay to tear it down?

 

Why not Hamilton county fairgrounds?

Here is the guy who owns the Cast-Fab property:

http://jburoker.charterrealtyrealestate.com

 

Got it for $2.2 million at the bottom of the recession and presumably has been leasing it back to Cast-Fab:

 

Here are the boundaries of the property -- yes, enough to comfortably build a stadium and surrounding plaza:

 

So does the city's "infrastructure" payment include acquiring and tearing down this place?  What sort of clean-up will be required?  The low price the guy got in 2010 indicates that there will be quite a bit of cleanup. 

 

When you look at the Oakley site, it's pretty obvious that they're actually going to have a serious land crunch.  The space simply is not there to do this unless they have the Cast-Fab land:

 

FCC's Oakley plan is to use the Cast-Fab site... but no word on costs of a) land acquisition or b) demolition and site remediation. This is why I've been annoyed by the vague talks of "infrastructure". If FCC wants somebody else to pay for site remediation, then they need to say that. I have no idea what it'll cost to make that site ready for construction, but I suspect it'll be significant.

 

Question regarding parking at the proposed Oakley site: with all of the free, surface parking nearby, how would FCC be able to "capture" revenue from parking? Wouldn't people park in one of the many surface parking lots in front of the AMC movie theater, Sam's, Meijer, and Kroger nearby? Or would those property owners restrict their parking on game days to prohibit FCC use? If those property owners decide to charge FCC fans for parking, how would FCC ownership capture any of that revenue? It's just a strange/unfortunate situation since there is no central control over parking infrastructure. Each of the big box retailers owns their own parking. I don't know what - if anything - can be done to force coordination on game days.

Demolition is in progress as we speak (saw it when I drove by.) Don’t know what the scope is of required remediation.

 

Article: https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/09/06/exclusive-cast-fab-selling-former-oakley-facility.html

 

 

Question regarding parking at the proposed Oakley site: with all of the free, surface parking nearby, how would FCC be able to "capture" revenue from parking? Wouldn't people park in one of the many surface parking lots in front of the AMC movie theater, Sam's, Meijer, and Kroger nearby? Or would those property owners restrict their parking on game days to prohibit FCC use? If those property owners decide to charge FCC fans for parking, how would FCC ownership capture any of that revenue? It's just a strange/unfortunate situation since there is no central control over parking infrastructure. Each of the big box retailers owns their own parking. I don't know what - if anything - can be done to force coordination on game days.

 

Yeah I was wondering that to. It seems like that huge Target/Meijier lot is never more than half full. The stadium would need some parking beyond the 1,000 car proposed garage and I wonder if they are counting on being able to use some of these huge surface lots. But there wouldn’t be any incentive for the property owners to share any parking revenue with the club even if the box stores agreed to let the lots be used.

I'm interested in parking because a) control of parking revenue is one of the reasons why MLS and b) it'll determine if/how future development happens.

 

Since FCC can't control all of those parking lots nearby, I don't see how they capture any more parking revenue than their current situation at Nippert (where folks use a variety of garages/lots throughout the areas around UC).

 

The <a href="https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/06/22/council-committee-backs-new-garage-to-lure-jobs.html">City paid $6.2 million</a> for the construction of the 383-space parking garage for Anthem ($16,000/space), using TIF funds. In the announcement, they called it a "public" garage, so presumably that garage be used on game days for FCC, and the City could decide to give FCC rights to all game day revenue. If the county does fund a new 1,000-space garage, where would the garage be located? Its location will determine a lot about how much it benefits ongoing development, as opposed to sitting vacant on non-game days.

 

Question for site planners: with the way the streets/buildings are laid out around there, is there any way to "fix" the layout to make it more walkable and allow for further increases in density? Disney/Ibsen is bad, bad, bad with all the buildings showing their butts to the street. Vandercar has some potential with the storefronts, apartments and office at least facing the street.

^They could all take the I-71 light r... wait

Question regarding parking at the proposed Oakley site: with all of the free, surface parking nearby, how would FCC be able to "capture" revenue from parking? Wouldn't people park in one of the many surface parking lots in front of the AMC movie theater, Sam's, Meijer, and Kroger nearby? Or would those property owners restrict their parking on game days to prohibit FCC use? If those property owners decide to charge FCC fans for parking, how would FCC ownership capture any of that revenue? It's just a strange/unfortunate situation since there is no central control over parking infrastructure. Each of the big box retailers owns their own parking. I don't know what - if anything - can be done to force coordination on game days.

 

This is why the argument that "this new infrastructure will benefit the entire Oakley community" doesn't make any sense. As if people would park in the new parking garage and walk to Oakley Square. They won't. If people were willing to walk that far, they would already be parking at the Kroger or Cinemark and walking to Oakley Square. Now if a pedestrian connection is built between Oakley Station and the traditional Oakley street grid, such as at 34th Avenue*, it would make the walking distance much shorter, but I still think not that many people would be willing to walk that distance. Not to mention, would Oakleyites really want large groups of people cutting down their quiet residential streets to walk between Oakley Station and Oakley Square?

 

*Does anybody know where are the are a few numbered streets in Oakley (28th Street and 31th-34th Avenues)? What grid is/was this supposed to be a part of, and where would First Street/Avenue be? And why is 28th a street instead of an avenue?

It's a 3,000-foot walk as the crow flied from Cast-Fab to Oakley Square.  But over 7,000 if you follow the sidewalks and don't illegally cross the railroad tracks. 

 

Maybe part of the "infrastructure" will be a pedestrian walk over the tracks. 

*Does anybody know where are the are a few numbered streets in Oakley (28th Street and 31th-34th Avenues)? What grid is/was this supposed to be a part of, and where would First Street/Avenue be? And why is 28th a street instead of an avenue?

 

Not sure if this means anything, but if you assume each missing block would be equal length and just extend west until you reach the beginning you would reach Ledgewood Drive, which is an extension of Woodburn north of Xavier.

 

Perhaps Norwood used to have Avenues going North/South and those got renamed, but the city never renamed their streets. No idea about 28th being a "street" though.

Pedestrian bridge would be a great part of the infrastructure plan. The current FCC pre-match march is exactly 1 mile. Google maps has a 1.2 mile walk from Habits to approximate location of Oakley stadium. Though it takes some weird turns in Oakley Station. So really not that much of a difference. A ped bridge would reduce and frankly has to be part of the plan.

 

Current route: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.1324971,-84.5028829/39.129834,-84.5164442/@39.1304582,-84.5154035,16z/data=!4m3!4m2!3e2!5i1?hl=en

Possible Oakley route: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.1516981,-84.4325339/39.1608827,-84.4315308/@39.1566774,-84.4309675,16z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2?hl=en

*Does anybody know where are the are a few numbered streets in Oakley (28th Street and 31th-34th Avenues)? What grid is/was this supposed to be a part of, and where would First Street/Avenue be? And why is 28th a street instead of an avenue?

 

Based on the Sanborn map from 1917 that can be found for free on the library's website (would post a link but I'm not allowed, not even in quotes.)  It looks like any possible renaming of anything resembling a grid to the west would've needed to be renamed prior to that year.  From that map you can also see the 29th & 30th were renamed at some point.

Imagining the development of a stadium will help urbanize Oakley when the discussion of $75m in infrastructure is rotating around parking, access roads, highway access and not a peep about BRT or LRT is 100% fantasy. It's a spatial reasoning fallacy. Investing millions to double-down on stroadifying the neighborhood and funneling traffic to/from I-71 will only make retrofitting harder later. FCC will, most likely, eventually come to the same realization the Crew has come to: that they need the stadium to be in the urban core to maximize success. If we're lucky, then Crossroads would take over the Oakley stadium instead of leaving it to decay.

^I agree... especially if their plan for "infrastructure upgrades" is just to widen streets that are already wide. That being said, I do think that if the stadium goes into the CastFab site, we will see more infill and densification around it. There are still a number of unbuilt out-parcels, which could support higher density hotels/apartments/offices. You can see the beginnings at the corner of Vandecar and Factory Colony, where all four corners are built out and face the street: (hotel, Bar Louie, apartments, Anthem office). ... so there's at least potential for increased density. 

I do think there is hope and possibility for some medium density development along Vandercar Way, similar to what exists at Anthem/Oakley Station. If this site is the one picked, I would hope they would line up the stadium with Vandercar to cap that view with a plaza and big main entrance, and place the jumbo parking garage behind it next to the expressway. That would help give it a slightly more urban feel and allow for Vandercar to feel like a gateway street of some sorts. Couple this with a pedestrian bridge and some development south of the train tracks and there is actually a decent amount of potential here.

 

Red is developable parcels, blue would be parking, Mapfre used for stadium scale.

Current Oakley Station Site Plan:

I do think there is hope and possibility for some medium density development along Vandercar Way, similar to what exists at Anthem/Oakley Station. If this site is the one picked, I would hope they would line up the stadium with Vandercar to cap that view with a plaza and big main entrance, and place the jumbo parking garage behind it next to the expressway. That would help give it a slightly more urban feel and allow for Vandercar to feel like a gateway street of some sorts. Couple this with a pedestrian bridge and some development south of the train tracks and there is actually a decent amount of potential here.

 

Red is developable parcels, blue would be parking, Mapfre used for stadium scale.

 

This is good (and optimistic) thinking, but it's still New Urbanist suburban, rather than actual urban development. I'm in agreement with you guys that a pedestrian bridge over the train tracks would go a long way in connecting the site to the neighborhood. I only see Madison getting worse, north of the NBD, and any involvement of Madison on the march to the stadium would completely kill the ambiance. (Are people seriously considering a march from MadTree?!) Still, there will be no serious commitment to urbanism here with BRT and LRT off the menu.

 

Rather than offering to build parking garages and improved highway access, the city and county should be asking the FCC owners to kick in toward BRT or LRT to the site as a condition of approving tax credits and whatnot. That's how you build an urban neighborhood. If that's not feasible, the site isn't feasible.

I do think there is hope and possibility for some medium density development along Vandercar Way, similar to what exists at Anthem/Oakley Station. If this site is the one picked, I would hope they would line up the stadium with Vandercar to cap that view with a plaza and big main entrance, and place the jumbo parking garage behind it next to the expressway. That would help give it a slightly more urban feel and allow for Vandercar to feel like a gateway street of some sorts. Couple this with a pedestrian bridge and some development south of the train tracks and there is actually a decent amount of potential here.

 

Red is developable parcels, blue would be parking, Mapfre used for stadium scale.

I wouldn't want the new parking garage to be on the "far" (west) side of the stadium... because that'd make it hard to use for non-stadium purposes. Would be better to put the stadium right next to the highway, and then put the garage in a more "central" location where it could be wrapped by office/hotel/apartment/retail.

 

Red is developable parcels, blue would be parking, Mapfre used for stadium scale.

 

I would expect the stadium to be built at least 100 feet north of that location in order to enable Vandercaar Way to be extended west to I-71 and then south under the railroad tracks to Robertson and Edwards. 

 

The only thing "urban" about this site will be the single-digit number of people who rent those apartments and who work at those small office buildings.  Workers at the big box stores can't afford those apartments or any of the homes within walking distance. 

 

 

Maybe it could urbanize Oakley from the south by connecting it to the rest of the neighborhood heading North, but no way is it going to be an urban neighborhood from the North heading south.  That is a glut of surface parking any ODOT official would be proud of

^They could all take the I-71 light r... wait

Lol good one. If only the city and county wanted to put money into that instead of parking garages this would be a slam dunk for everyone. 

Probably the best possible thing to do is to not build the stadium there and go and rebuild the street grid from the south and turn it into single family housing, but fairly dense single family housing.

Maybe the FBI will raid Crossroads on Christmas and the stadium can be built right on Madison. 

The Business Courier published an article breaking down what they expect Cranley's financing plan to be. Cranley will make the official announcement at 3:30 today.

Chris Wetterich posted on twitter Cranley's outline:

 

$9.5 million in TIF

 

$7.3 million from Blue Ash Airport

 

$20 million from surplus lodging tax which supposedly belongs to the city (not certain if this is spread out I highly doubt they have $20 million sitting around as of right now, said it would be borrowed by FCC then paid back by the surplus tax but any shortcomings on the surplus tax would be paid by FCC)

 

 

WVXU has posted the proposed ordinance. It calls for so many "improvements" to the site!

 

- Remove bump-outs on Vandercar Way

- Improve Vandercar Way to 5-lanes between Marburg and Madison

- Widen Madison Rd between Ridge and Kennedy to 5-lanes

- Make Geier Dr public and extend around outer edge of site

- Construct Vandercar/Geier/Edwards/Disney loop around stadium site - All 5 lanes

 

So much for those sidewalk bump-outs and sharrows that at least attempted to make the area a bit more pedestrian and bike friendly. There is no attempt in this plan to make the development walkable, transit-accessible, or new urbanist in any way. No pedestrian bridge over the railroad tracks, either, as far as I can tell.

So overall city is willing to put in almost as much money as it did for the streetcar.  Will there be as much hoopla about this. Doubt it.

Please tell me a Frisch's Carhop is accounted for in this bleeding-edge site plan.

WVXU has posted the proposed ordinance. It calls for so many "improvements" to the site!

 

- Remove bump-outs on Vandercar Way

- Improve Vandercar Way to 5-lanes between Marburg and Madison

- Widen Madison Rd between Ridge and Kennedy to 5-lanes

- Make Geier Dr public and extend around outer edge of site

- Construct Vandercar/Geier/Edwards/Disney loop around stadium site - All 5 lanes

 

So much for those sidewalk bump-outs and sharrows that at least attempted to make the area a bit more pedestrian and bike friendly. There is no attempt in this plan to make the development walkable, transit-accessible, or new urbanist in any way. No pedestrian bridge over the railroad tracks, either, as far as I can tell.

Yea its pretty much shit. Nice. Even though i want it built in the city I will be protesting this.

It looked like from the render they had on the press conference that the stadium abuts the wall along the exit here for a beautiful view of the highways. With what Travis says above, they couldnt make it more boring of a layout if they tried. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1636934,-84.433205,3a,89.9y,162.43h,102.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szNaeVk7JVmXHDQJqVot8fg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Maybe the FBI will raid Crossroads on Christmas and the stadium can be built right on Madison. 

 

 

Yippie-kai-yay

Please tell me a Frisch's Carhop is accounted for in this bleeding-edge site plan.

 

Drive-through beer store

 

1-story storage units

 

A motel where you enter your room from the outside

 

Rendering posted by Chris Wetterich:https://twitter.com/ChrisCinciBiz/status/931632673604456449

The rendering doesn't show the 5-lane ring road which would wrap around the outside of the site.

Per Chris Wetterich, an extension of Edwards up to this site is not being considered at this time. So I think that "Vandercar/Geier/Edwards/Disney loop around stadium site" text is outdated. Most likely only Geier will be extended and meet up with Disney Street or Vandercar Way somehow.

WVXU has posted the proposed ordinance. It calls for so many "improvements" to the site!

 

- Remove bump-outs on Vandercar Way

- Improve Vandercar Way to 5-lanes between Marburg and Madison

- Widen Madison Rd between Ridge and Kennedy to 5-lanes

- Make Geier Dr public and extend around outer edge of site

- Construct Vandercar/Geier/Edwards/Disney loop around stadium site - All 5 lanes

 

So much for those sidewalk bump-outs and sharrows that at least attempted to make the area a bit more pedestrian and bike friendly. There is no attempt in this plan to make the development walkable, transit-accessible, or new urbanist in any way. No pedestrian bridge over the railroad tracks, either, as far as I can tell.

 

So they are removing bumpouts for the "urban stadium" site. ;D

 

And how exactly are they planning on converting this stretch of Madison to 5 lanes?

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1593992,-84.4197918,151m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!17m1!1e1

 

This couldn't be more of a lemon if someone were intentionally making it one. They should just put this thing in West Chester or Mason at this point. How about here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3720471,-84.3789773,599m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!17m1!1e1

So they are removing bumpouts for the "urban stadium" site. ;D

 

I will hereby refer to this as a "Reverse Liberty Street".

 

And how exactly are they planning on converting this stretch of Madison to 5 lanes?

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1593992,-84.4197918,151m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!17m1!1e1

 

Houses on each side of the street will probably lose 5" of their front lawn.

 

This couldn't be more of a lemon if someone were intentionally making it one. They should just put this thing in West Chester or Mason at this point. How about here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3720471,-84.3789773,599m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!17m1!1e1

 

Not a bad idea. If you put it next to Liberty Center it would actually be more urban and walkable than the Oakley proposal.

 

And how exactly are they planning on converting this stretch of Madison to 5 lanes?

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1593992,-84.4197918,151m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!17m1!1e1

 

 

They are going to take 8-10 feet of the north side of the street most likely.

The parking lots for the movie theatre and big box stores in that rendering have a greenish tint to them that makes them look like parkspace or something (they’re not of course)

The rendering shows new development on the southside of the railroad tracks and it appears the parking garage is located to the north on the Milacron site (which is separate from CastFab). Not sure if those property acquisitions are part of this or not.

 

 

 

The rendering shows new development on the southside of the railroad tracks and it appears the parking garage is located to the north on the Milacron site (which is separate from CastFab). Not sure if those property acquisitions are part of this or not.

 

 

 

 

No bridges over the RR tracks though. So if you live in the single family home neighborhood to the south and get the inkling to try to walk to something here, tough luck.

When they abandon that spur you'll be able to tailgate at the Norwood Incinerator and walk over. 

Apparently Amy Murray has already said she will be a "yes" vote on this plan. If the endorsed Republican is coming out and supporting this, I bet it sails through and passes 6-3, maybe 5-4. Since the ordinance would allocate funding and therefore would be passed as an "emergency" ordinance, citizens do not have the ability to gather signatures and force a referendum.

That rendering is so depressing. To go from the lively neighborhoods surrounding Nippert to this...I mean, are those semis idling to the right of the stadium? What is it going to feel like to walk around this thing? You have the din of a highway, a semi-vacant railyard, and then Sam's Club with some "Urban Living" superblocks sprinkled around.

 

Hoping it ends up in Newport.

Meh, I think Oakley has it's own unique vibe. We are acting like the big box stores have completely invaded Oakley, when in reality it's like 1/4th of all of Oakley. There are some nice things going on down there, and there are some great places to eat and drink before the game, not to mention the jam packed Mad Tree Brewery.

 

I also think the Stadium will be a catalyst for some more urban mixed use developments in the current remaining undeveloped parcels. Without this stadium, who knows what these parcels could end up as.

 

Oakley could be more urban for sure, and I might be in the minority with this, but I truly don't have a problem with the Oakley Site. Would west end or newport be more ideal? Sure, but Oakley is okay with me to honestly.

Rendering posted by Chris Wetterich:https://twitter.com/ChrisCinciBiz/status/931632673604456449

 

This is a rendering of a 7am game.  Rise and shine!

Yep. I also want to express my disappointment in road widening and the lack of a railroad bridge. I get it. There's a reason I'm on this website. I'm all for urban development. I voted for Yvette, donated to urban candidates and even had a Bauman sign in my front yard. I am a member of small committee in Pleasant Ridge that has been lobbying city hall for over a year with 10 goals to improve pedestrian safety in PR (we've only accomplished one goal - but that's a story for another thread). I understand why people are upset.

 

But on the other had, I'm a FCC Bailey season ticket holder. Going to those games are the most fun thing to do in Cincinnati. I've made so many new friends the past 2 years because of it. The Bailey this year really became one big wild family. Soccer is the future and we should keep that future and excitement in Cincinnati and not let it walk across the river.

 

The site has issues. But a lot fans show up early and go to bars. There's already talk that Pleasant Ridge Mollys will have a shuttle. I bet Cock n Bull in Hyde Park and other bars would too. Its quite clear the rendering was quickly put together and the small box buildings next to the stadium were just stuck there. Also, as Jake pointed out the photo is at 7am). There's still hope that it could become a much better urban environment. I also hope that one day they'll build a bridge over the the railroad tracks. Everyone also seems to be forgetting there's a new metro station being built behind LA Fitness. Also, someone mentioned the trailers next to the stadium...I want to point out that's just part of having a stadium. Most away teams and press use trailers, they would be at the Newport and West End location also.

 

Cranley seems to think he has the votes. I'm guessing Murray, Winburn, Flynn, Smitherman and Mann vote yes. Also a good chance PG votes yes. I also get that Seelbach is a no but he's going on some absurd rants about "rich white men" and how FCC should sell funds to the public. FCC does have an African American owner and as a whole the Lindners and everyone else will make very little money, at least at first on this venture. Also, I'm 99% sure it's against MLS by-laws for the public to own shares in the team. Trust me, I never thought in my life, I'd agree with Cranley and disagree with Seelbach. Never mind the fact that some of these infrastructure improvements like utilities will help the whole area. The real question is the county help more or will FCC pony up the last funds or will they move to Newport?

^Majority fan-owned teams are banned by MLS but minority stakes are allowed.

It's true, most of my disappointment is from knowing what could have been. If you had just told me 2 years ago Cincinnati would be getting an MLS franchise and the stadium would be in Oakley, I would have been ecstatic.

 

But all the talk about an urban stadium, "between UC and the river", as Berding said, etc, got my hopes up that we could he a model for how to incorporate sports with dense urban centers.

If we lived in an alternate universe where all the metro area were all one single political jurisdiction, or if someone were an impartial observer from outer space, the I think the stadium would make the most sense in Newport. There’s more synergies with entertainment options there- Newport on the Levee, the Aquarium, the planned Ferris wheel- and already 2 hotels nearby. Not to mention the attractions of downtown Cincinnati. I think a Newport stadium has more potential to draw visitors from outside the region for a long weekend.

 

Here’s what I think some of the players in this game are thinking-

 

The team ownership has incentive for Oakley because the Port Authority stadium ownership structure saves money on sales tax for construction materials. This Port Authority deal is not available in Kentucky.

 

Cranley (and thus the city) wants Oakley because it would fit in with his past support for development in the area. Enlightening article here: http://enquirer.com/editions/2002/10/22/loc_oakley22.html To be fair- someone, sometime will have to do something with that site lest it sit vacant for years.

 

Hamilton County wants PBS because they’ve bet the farm on the Banks. They’re concerned the Bengals may leave someday.  They would get increased parking revenue from the parking garages they own for FC games. An interesting question- would a Newport stadium also produce parking revenues at the Banks? If so, would that draw more revenue to the county than constructing the stadium in Hamilton County itself, after you consider the expense of constructing new facilities?

 

The city of Newport seems to be letting Corporex handle negotiations.