There are no rich left in  Cleveland? What about the suburbs and elsewhere. I am getting sick of all this “socialism” name calling by people who don’t wven know what socialism is.

There are no rich left in  Cleveland? What about the suburbs and elsewhere. I am getting sick of all this “socialism” name calling by people who don’t wven know what socialism is.

 

Umm, the topic is the City of Cleveland.  I didn't realize Cleveland was Solon. 60% of Cleveland's population left city; that's why Cleveland is now a city of 385,000 in a CSA of 3,500,000.  The money is in the suburbs, not in the city.  I am getting sick of people thinking that Cleveland includes the region.  May explain why when someone says they're from Cleveland and answer the ''what part'', with "Wooster" or some other near or far-flung locale other than an actual Cleveland neighborhood. 

 

Now people expect the RTA to expand service to the areas where the jobs went so the poor, (the group Krumholz allegedly protects) trapped residents in Cleveland can get to these jobs (or at least that's the argument).  So now we're expected to pay $x billions to transport poor residents to minimum wage jobs in some distant suburban or exurban area.  Not cost effective.  How about getting those jobs back into Cleveland, located on or adjacent to the existing transit lines, especially rail.  But that takes political leadership with a post-1980 mindset.

 

Key word you referred to about ''rich left in Cleveland": elsewhere.

 

Lived through and experienced the results of Cleveland's Socialism is quite enough for me on that topic.

Everything that went wrong with Cleveland and other industrial cities is all the fault of the planning director ftom the 70s.  Got it .

I see you took Urban Planning 101 somewhere other than Goodman-Levin Planning School.

 

So glad Cleveland's 1970s head Social Worker, I mean City Planner, was removed from the Cleveland Planning Commission in 2014.  Krumholz's opposition to the PSquare redo did him in, finally. 

 

Yes.  Everyone on the commission must agree with the mayor.  We can have no opposition.

 

Krumholz & Kucinich were so bad for business in the '70s that even the mafia had scheduled a hit on Dennis. 

 

 

That had more to do with his anti-corruption views than his leftism.  Ironically, the sort of large intrusive government socialism needs inevitably becomes a kleptocracy.

Norm only served under Kucinich for a about a year.  Kucinich's term was definitely a sh!t show. But most populist candidates are terrible leaders.  Example:  current president, speaking of kleptocracies. 

Norm only served under Kucinich for a about a year.  Kucinich's term was definitely a sh!t show. But most populist candidates are terrible leaders.  Example:  current president, speaking of kleptocracies. 

 

Agreed on the current, and the most recent past as well. 

 

Thing is, either NK had something to do with the decline of Cleveland, or urban planning is largely meaningless.  It can't be neither.

 

How would you say Hill's views differed from Krumholz's?  Were they able to work well together?

I think that Urban Planning cannot counter-act the overall global economic influences nor is that the purpose.  The purpose of planning is about land use and related issues.  I think NKs biggest contribution in the area of planning in general, is to make equity a consideration when making decisions.  I am a firm believer in the market system but recognize that market failures exist and that there is a place in planning and government in general to serve those living at the fringes of society.

 

That being said, Ned Hill, is a big believer in the market system and economics in general.  Ned, IMHO, is a true believer in capitalism to fix all of the social ills in the way Krumholz is a true believer in equity planning.  I believe that a balance is needed and the argument to be made is where the balance should be tilted. 

 

As I stated a few comments back, I have not always agreed with decisions made by Krumholz, but I believe his contributions to planning and Cleveland are worthy. 

I think NKs biggest contribution in the area of planning in general, is to make equity a consideration when making decisions.

 

Exactly, before Davidoff and Krumholz there was basically no consideration of social justice in urban planning, and they were a reaction to the horrid things that happened during urban renewal/interstate highway system era (and long before that).

 

Krumholz seems to take it too far in my view to the point where he seems to believe all public spending should be in pursuit of social justice and he is opposed to ANY public investment or really ANY government action that doesn't do that, which is absurd.

 

I wasn't around during Krumholz' years in power but it's pretty intuitive to me that some of the positions taken served to isolate Clevelanders from the rest of the county and be counterproductive to his own goals.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/12/former-cleveland-planning-director-norman-krumholz-nationally-respected-advocate-of-equity-planning-is-dead-at-92.html