And I also think America is building some terrific young soccer talent. I don't say this just because my son is in a good soccer program (he's Ukrainian born but he is being trained in a U.S. program). I say this because of the talented players he's playing against. Some of these kids are pretty amazing at such a young age. And there's a lot of them. Few of them want to play American football, and almost none of their parents want them to.

Some big hitters behind bringing soccer to Cleveland, both mens and womans.

https://www.clevescene.com/news/mls-officials-made-a-site-visit-to-cleveland-about-possible-expansion-team-in-development-league-as-local-group-pushes-for-soccer-39583906

3 hours ago, freethink said:

Some big hitters behind bringing soccer to Cleveland, both mens and womans.

https://www.clevescene.com/news/mls-officials-made-a-site-visit-to-cleveland-about-possible-expansion-team-in-development-league-as-local-group-pushes-for-soccer-39583906

 

Proof that wheels are in motion!

 

I'm sure as heck hoping Cleveland gets USL and not MLS development. 

Cleveland SC made a cryptic tweet that suggested they are somewhat behind all this. 

7 hours ago, surfohio said:

 

Proof that wheels are in motion!

 

I'm sure as heck hoping Cleveland gets USL and not MLS development. 

 

From the "UPDATE" paragraph in the article:

 

Quote

(Update: MLS in a statement Tuesday afternoon said: "MLS Next Pro had meetings in Cleveland a few weeks ago and are excited about the possibility of bringing a men's soccer team to Cleveland.")

 

MLS NEXT Pro is a third-tier league that launched this year with 22 teams all with direct MLS team affiliations, except for Rochester New York FC, which is independent. Seven more NEXT Pro teams will be added next year.  And the league is looking to add even more in the future.

 

The US soccer league "pyramid" is more like a pyramid-shaped flask in which everything is constantly getting shaken and blended except for MLS at the top.

I cannot stress enough how much an MLS Pro Next team here would be the wrong move. It would significantly hamper the teams growth while potentially poisoning the market for a more suitable USL expansion. MLS Next Pro is a reserve with tighter control by the MLS organization and little else. Any non "MLS 2 or MLS B" teams that play in the same market as their parent team are outliers. This isn't like hockey or baseball where the highest rung on the developmental ladder is the 2nd best league in the country (AAA ball or the AHL) with the next best fan support. Despite what the MLS may say, MLS Pro Next teams will never come close to the support or community engagement of USL teams. People are not going to turn out in significant numbers to watch a game vs Orlando City B or Earthquakes II. They also only have 12 home games a season, compared with 17 in USL-C and 15 in USL-1. The only other non MLS-B teams in the league that Cleveland would be playing against are Rochester and Huntsville, Alabama. It's a reserve league that only some of the more engaged MLS fans will ever care about. The Cleveland Force in USL2 have drawn larger crowds to Krenzler than many MLSNP teams have in their MLS stadiums. 

 

Even if the goal is to build up MLSNP into something like what baseball and hockey have in their minor leagues, it would likely take decades and considerably more investment from MLS owners to get close. Those teams would also have a hard time catching up to the USL which is years ahead. For what its worth I understand the appeal of building up a minor league soccer with a focus on nearby underserved markets, but that's not really how this sport works. The developmental league concept like that exists in North America doesn't really exist in the same way for soccer with its academies and player loans. It works pretty well in hockey and baseball, with perhaps one of the best inter-city sports relationships in the country between Cleveland and Columbus. The Monsters and Clippers are routinely among the most well supported organizations below the major league level. An MLS Next Pro Cleveland team will never come close to that success. 

 

A Cleveland team could find a nice home in USL-C,  playing against peer cities like Detroit, Louisville, Pittsburgh and Indianapolis. They likely wouldn't be at the top of that league in terms of facilities or attendance, but they could build a viable organization on par with what the Riverhounds have done down in Pittsburgh. If the money or resources aren't there for a USL-C team in a 5,000 seat stadium (or even a new USL-1 team), then resources should be focused on building up the Cleveland Force with a goal to jump up leagues in the near future. To help the team grow, there are some cost effective improvements that could be made to Krenzler. With some upgrades, Krenzler would be a tremendous soccer venue in a prime location downtown.  The article also mentioned an NWSL team which is very interesting, but would not happen without the cash outlay for a facility and team at least at the caliber of USL Championship team. 

 

Please do not shackle our soccer future to MLS Next Pro. Cleveland deserves better. That team would be on an island in that league with considerably less appeal then the USL. With a proper facility, this region is more than capable of supporting a USL Championship team. 

 

 

TL;DR - MLS Next Pro would be bad for Cleveland and soccer's future in the city. Pursue a USL-1 team if there aren't resources to build up a USL Championship team instead. Or help build up the Force to USL-1 with upgrades to Krenzler. Sorry for the wall of text, I just want Cleveland to have a viable soccer team the city can root for. 

Great post, appreciate you sharing your in-depth knowledge of the machinations of the US Soccer ‘pyramid’. I know that it completely stumps myself and probably most everyone else too. 
 

57 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

Any non "MLS 2 or MLS B" teams that play in the same market as their parent team are outliers.

 

First, thanks for the rest of your post, that was very informative, especially as someone who had never heard of USL before an NPSL team came to Akron this past season and I started looking up the US soccer hierarchy and learned about the "pyramid" when I was expecting something more like MLB > AAA > AA > A.

 

Second, this sentence of yours still confuses me.  Is this another way of saying "most MLSNP teams play in the same stadium as their MLS team?"  So, for example, even leaving the fan support issue aside, the Columbus Crew won't send its MLSNP team to Cleveland (to become the mirror of the Clippers -> Guardians), because the system was set up for the Crew's reserve team to play in Lower Field?

10 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

First, thanks for the rest of your post, that was very informative, 

Second, this sentence of yours still confuses me.  Is this another way of saying "most MLSNP teams play in the same stadium as their MLS team?"  So, for example, even leaving the fan support issue aside, the Columbus Crew won't send its MLSNP team to Cleveland (to become the mirror of the Clippers -> Guardians), because the system was set up for the Crew's reserve team to play in Lower Field?

 

I think it's a mixed bag for MLSNP teams. Some play at the MLS stadiums (Philly, San Jose, New England). Others play at other local stadiums (Columbus, Chicago, Houston). The remaining teams play on college campuses (Cincinnati, Toronto, NYCFC). 

 

Attendance is very low across the board because there's only one team that isn't owned by an MLS team.

 

Most MLSNP teams train at the main MLS training facility, which are state of the art facilities. So they don't want to send them to another city hours away.

1 minute ago, ryanlammi said:

Attendance is very low across the board because there's only one team that isn't owned by an MLS team.

 

I guess I've never seen quite that connection because the Clippers and RubberDucks are "owned" (or at least seem so, even if they might technically have different/more complex ownership) by the Guardians and yet they always seem to have strong attendance for their levels (AAA or AA, respectively).

4 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

1 hour ago, NorthShore647 said:

Any non "MLS 2 or MLS B" teams that play in the same market as their parent team are outliers.

 

First, thanks for the rest of your post, that was very informative, especially as someone who had never heard of USL before an NPSL team came to Akron this past season and I started looking up the US soccer hierarchy and learned about the "pyramid" when I was expecting something more like MLB > AAA > AA > A.

 

Second, this sentence of yours still confuses me.  Is this another way of saying "most MLSNP teams play in the same stadium as their MLS team?"  So, for example, even leaving the fan support issue aside, the Columbus Crew won't send its MLSNP team to Cleveland (to become the mirror of the Clippers -> Guardians), because the system was set up for the Crew's reserve team to play in Lower Field?

 

 

Sorry, yes my phrasing is a little off there. Many MLS 2 teams have played in the stadium of their parent team, however this is becoming less common as more have branched out into university facilities, minor league baseball parks or stadiums at large multi-sport complex's. They are often the secondary tenant in facilities where the fan viewing experience is of little concern. A couple hundred people turning up to see the reserve team play in a stadium greater than even ~5,000 can seem cavernous. 

3 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

 

 

Sorry, yes my phrasing is a little off there. Many MLS 2 teams have played in the stadium of their parent team, however this is becoming less common as more have branched out into university facilities, minor league baseball parks or stadiums at large multi-sport complex's. They are often the secondary tenant in facilities where the fan viewing experience is of little concern. A couple hundred people turning up to see the reserve team play in a stadium greater than even ~5,000 can seem cavernous. 

 

Then let me alter my question a bit: Did you mean to say that most MLSNP (is that the same as MLS 2?) teams play in the same city as their parent team?  Maybe I just shouldn't have said "stadium."

1 minute ago, Gramarye said:

 

Then let me alter my question a bit: Did you mean to say that most MLSNP (is that the same as MLS 2?) teams play in the same city as their parent team?  Maybe I just shouldn't have said "stadium."

 

Yes all 20 MLS 2/reserve teams play in the same metro area/market (including the 3 that still play in USL-C, but are making the transition to MLSNP next season). I think the biggest distance between venues is for FC Dallas who play in Frisco, and their reserve team which plays in Arlington.

2 hours ago, Gramarye said:

2 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

Attendance is very low across the board because there's only one team that isn't owned by an MLS team.

 

I guess I've never seen quite that connection because the Clippers and RubberDucks are "owned" (or at least seem so, even if they might technically have different/more complex ownership) by the Guardians and yet they always seem to have strong attendance for their levels (AAA or AA, respectively).

 

I mentioned this briefly in my original post, but for the most part hockey and baseball are entirely incomparable to soccer in terms of "developmental teams" (not only in the US/Canada but globally). The system of tiered leagues of increasing skill level to develop athletes in baseball and hockey doesn't really exist outside of North America.  

 

This is very interesting though because it gets at the root of perhaps the primary difference between American Sports and European Sports. In the US the major leagues are a closed system with a fixed set of teams. A city without a team can only get one through an expansion franchise, or moving an existing team from another market. All other teams or cities not in the club are stuck with the minor leagues of hockey and baseball, or collegiate basketball and football programs. The players are the ones that move up from either the college or minor league teams into the fixed set of professional teams. 

 

In much of the world (particularly European soccer), there is no fixed group of teams in a league. Through promotion and relegation based on performance teams move up and down each nations own "Soccer Pyramid." This system means that a team like Manchester United could drop down a league every season until they reach a team of amateurs in their equivalent of beer league softball. In this system many teams do still have their own academies and developmental teams, but these "youth soccer leagues"  aren't really things people are specifically fans of, or engage with in meaningful ways. Why would you follow the youth league or reserve team when you could watch your local professional club, even if they aren't in the top of the pyramid EPL. Essentially (in large part to the existence of the promotion/relegation system) there is little to no market for youth/reserve league teams in the soccer world. 

 

With the new MLS Next Pro, MLS is essentially embarking on a league format without precedent anywhere in the world of soccer.  Again, developmental or reserve team leagues do exist, but none serve as a different city's "home team." All are vertically integrated in a system designed to create the best product for the parent team at the top. In theory MLS Next Pro could work, and over the years they can build up a system that vaguely resembles minor leagues in the US today. This potential future is however going up against the global soccer format and the existing USL system in the US today. 

 

At the end of the day there is a choice between MLS Next Pro (a reserve league controlled by a closed group of major league owners), or and the independent USL system. If fans of minor league teams in the US were given the option, I'm sure most would choose the independent format if it was a financially viable alternative. Unfortunately baseball, hockey, basketball and football are incredibly closed systems with strong market and legal protections against any meaningful alternative or competition. Soccer is not nearly as constrained as those leagues (yet). That is why the USL is so uniquely positioned within the American sports landscape. As the league builds out franchises in the markets overlooked or forgotten by MLS, they can form into the strongest pro league outside of the "Big 5." I want to see Cleveland in that league. If Chattanooga, Madison and Omaha get independent, successful, community focused teams, so should Cleveland.

 

In four years we are hosting the World Cup. The 1994 World Cup led to the creation of MLS. The sport could take a massive jump forward in 2026. Cleveland should have a legitimate team for the city to get behind by then in hopefully the USL-C or USL-1. 

 

 

Disclaimer - Again, its worth noting that I am speaking in broad strokes here. There is a lot of soccer in the world. Academy systems and player management rules can be tremendously complicated. I also am not trying to open up the PRO/REL can of worms. I only bring it up to demonstrate why the North American system of minor leagues is entirely unique, and why that league format would not translate well to soccer. And again, sorry for the length of the post/ tangent - this is just something the region needs to get right. Northeast Ohio's lack of Division 2 or 3 soccer for an area of our size is a significant outlier in the sports national (even global) landscape.

 

 

TL;DR - The US system of minor leagues (hockey/baseball) and college programs (football/basketball) is unique, and doesn't really exist in the soccer world. The global market with its thousands of players, the player loan system, and PRO/REL format seen in most soccer leagues means there isn't a need or market for a minor league system in the soccer world. The MLSNP's ceiling is low, and can damage soccer's reputation in the Cleveland market (and Cleveland's reputation in the national soccer landscape). The USL offers the entirely unique opportunity to join one of the few professional non "Big 5" affiliated leagues in the country, in the world's most popular sport. 

3 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

In much of the world (particularly European soccer), there is no fixed group of teams in a league. Through promotion and relegation based on performance teams move up and down each nations own "Soccer Pyramid." This system means that a team like Manchester United could drop down a league every season until they reach a team of amateurs in their equivalent of beer league softball. In this system many teams do still have their own academies and developmental teams, but these "youth soccer leagues"  aren't really things people are specifically fans of, or engage with in meaningful ways. Why would you follow the youth league or reserve team when you could watch your local professional club, even if they aren't in the top of the pyramid EPL. Essentially (in large part to the existence of the promotion/relegation system) there is little to no market for youth/reserve league teams in the soccer world. 

 

I've recently become aware of the promotion/relegation system other countries (especially in Europe) use for soccer and it kind of blew my mind, in particular because what I presume it has to mean for the amount of money at stake at the bottom of whatever the top league is in any country or group of countries.  For example, if the "bottom" NFL team in any given year had to play in the CFL the following year, on a CFL team's budget, and the top CFL team got to move up to the NFL and got an NFL team's share of the league media revenue, the stakes in the game between the two last-place teams in the NFL would be bigger than the Super Bowl.  And the stakes of whatever the CFL championship game is would be similarly massive.  And I don't know what the personal stakes would be for any NFL player on that last-place team that happened to be on a multi-year, multimillion-dollar contract with a team that would now be moving down to where top players don't even make $100,000 and would be cut out of the NFL revenue that makes those contracts possible.

29 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

I've recently become aware of the promotion/relegation system other countries (especially in Europe) use for soccer and it kind of blew my mind, in particular because what I presume it has to mean for the amount of money at stake at the bottom of whatever the top league is in any country or group of countries.  For example, if the "bottom" NFL team in any given year had to play in the CFL the following year, on a CFL team's budget, and the top CFL team got to move up to the NFL and got an NFL team's share of the league media revenue, the stakes in the game between the two last-place teams in the NFL would be bigger than the Super Bowl.  And the stakes of whatever the CFL championship game is would be similarly massive.  And I don't know what the personal stakes would be for any NFL player on that last-place team that happened to be on a multi-year, multimillion-dollar contract with a team that would now be moving down to where top players don't even make $100,000 and would be cut out of the NFL revenue that makes those contracts possible.

 

I follow a team in Germany that has a habit of moving back and forth between the top tier and the second (1. FC Köln). I would say more often than not, they are in the top league (the Bundesliga). But every few years they get relegated. It really depends on the team in question as to how they respond.

When you get relegated, your advertising revenue goes down, your attendance often goes down (not in the case of Köln because they are one of the more popular teams with a loyal fan base in a big city), and your debts increase. You often have to sell off some of your better players to float yourself for a couple of years, which then impacts your ability to get promoted, and impacts your ability to stay up in the top tier when you do get back up.

 

It is a big financial hurricane for any team that gets relegated or promoted. Some smaller teams (like Greuther Fürth last season) know they can't keep up, enjoy the ride, and don't stretch themselves far because they know they are going to go right back down the next season. Others spend really wisely with the goal of staying in the top flight (like Union Berlin or Bochum) and stay up.

 

Some players, especially the leaders on the team, will take a reduced salary (perhaps with bonuses or raises if/when they get promoted) and stay with the team when they get relegated. Some players are even signed with clauses for what to do in case of relegation or promotion, so their salaries aren't a mystery. Most of the biggest names with Köln stuck with the club at reduced salary, then the team sold off some of the other expensive players and moved some kids up from their youth squad. They won the second division and went right back up. 

 

The Bundesliga is notorious for having strict financial rules, so wealthy individuals/companies aren't supposed to be able to just buy a team and pump money into them to win the league. There are some exceptions to the rules, and it is a hot debate. In the English Premier League, there is a lot of foreign investment in teams. Some teams end up with hundreds of millions of dollars in debt, and then when they struggle to perform well, they are in a tough spot even if they don't get relegated. It's a pretty fascinating sport. Spain's La Liga is also filled with teams who are struggling with debt (like Barcelona).

I was glad for USL to be getting rid of the MLS 2 teams. There's something about playing another teams designated reserves that's just not sexy. 

 

That being said, Gramarye you may be interested to hear more about the Lamar Hunt U.S. Open Cup. It's a knockout tournament where both professional and amateur clubs are eligible.  It's really fun to see teams from Walla Walla or wherever square off against the big guys. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Open_Cup

 

This year Orlando City (MLS) faces Sacramento Republic (USL) for the Final on Sep 7. The last non-MLS team to win it was the Rochester Rhinos in 1999. 

Cleveland Pro Soccer announcement coming prior to USMNT - Wales game. Looks like it'll MLS Next Pro (was supposedly briefly in their bio, then removed). 

 

(sorry for another rant here) ... Again I cannot stress how much of a disappointment MLS Next Pro is. Cleveland deserves better then a team in a RESERVE LEAGUE with no fan engagement outside of the most devoted MLS fans. Its is such a truly unappealing league in terms of fan experience when  compared with the alternative of a USL-C or USL-1 team. The league is pretty close to irrelevant. Many of the soccer fans engaged enough to actually know about MLSNP think the prospect of developing independent teams is a joke. MLSNP isn't about growing the game in new markets through investments into the fan experience and on field product. This league is more likely an attempt by MLS to counteract the growth of the USL, it's only real competitor, by expanding into untapped markets first. 

If this ownership group was interested in creating a soccer team that could attract more meaningful community engagement and interest from fans in the region, it would've pursued a USL-C or USL-1 franchise. Choosing MLSNP instead could likely mean that this ownership group doesn't have the resources to invest in a USL team. The best thing an MLS Next Pro Cleveland team can do is stay out of the way of a group that wants to build an actual professional soccer club in the city. Hopefully its (in my opinion likely) failure to capture notable fan interest doesn't poison the well, justifying a lack of future investment in the game regionally.

18 minutes ago, NorthShore647 said:

(sorry for another rant here) ... Again I cannot stress how much of a disappointment MLS Next Pro is. Cleveland deserves better then a team in a RESERVE LEAGUE with no fan engagement outside of the most devoted MLS fans. Its is such a truly unappealing league in terms of fan experience when  compared with the alternative of a USL-C or USL-1 team. The league is pretty close to irrelevant. Many of the soccer fans engaged enough to actually know about MLSNP think the prospect of developing independent teams is a joke. MLSNP isn't about growing the game in new markets through investments into the fan experience and on field product. This league is more likely an attempt by MLS to counteract the growth of the USL, it's only real competitor, by expanding into untapped markets first. 

 

So, as someone who still has a head-spinning reaction to the fact that the US soccer pyramid isn't a nice, neat hierarchy like baseball, I'm curious what makes USL-C more desirable here ... and if it is, why hasn't either been merged into MLS or merged into what would be "AAA" in MLB-speak under MLS?  I reread your post from August 24, above, and I still don't think it exactly clicks with me.  The Columbus Clippers don't seem to suffer from being a AAA part of an MLB franchise as opposed to trying to have their own separate "pro but not as pro as the pros" league.  And that's what USL-C sounds like.  "Top-level pro but not as top-level pro as MLS."

 

Granted, I've never been to an MLS game, a USL-C game, a USL-1 game, or a MLSNP game.  So you could well have real points about fan experience and field product.  But even if that's true today, I don't know that's it's necessarily fated to stay that way.  The streamlined hierarchy of the other sports has a lot of appeal and makes things simpler for fanbases.

 

When I was first getting into Akron City FC, figuring out where NPSL stood was a ridiculous dive.

25 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

 

When I was first getting into Akron City FC, figuring out where NPSL stood was a ridiculous dive.

I’ve been a regular over the last 6-7 years at Cleveland SC games and the Cleveland Royals before that. I long ago gave up trying to figure out how the level they play at figures in to anything. I just go and enjoy the games, even though I know their great winning record and achievements don’t actually amount to any kind of progress. 

Where would they play?

19 hours ago, Gramarye said:

So, as someone who still has a head-spinning reaction to the fact that the US soccer pyramid isn't a nice, neat hierarchy like baseball, I'm curious what makes USL-C more desirable here ... and if it is, why hasn't either been merged into MLS or merged into what would be "AAA" in MLB-speak under MLS?  I reread your post from August 24, above, and I still don't think it exactly clicks with me.  The Columbus Clippers don't seem to suffer from being a AAA part of an MLB franchise as opposed to trying to have their own separate "pro but not as pro as the pros" league.  And that's what USL-C sounds like.  "Top-level pro but not as top-level pro as MLS."

 

Baseball comparisons to soccer do not work well. In a very broad simplification:

 

The concept of a farm team or developmental team is pretty unique to baseball (and hockey) in America. If you want to watch any professional baseball in America (aside from the few independent leagues), you have no other choice but to watch MLB or one of their affiliated minor league teams. Successful minor league teams (Dayton, Columbus) have a hard ceiling that artificially limits their potential. MLB's now century long antitrust exemption has helped it maintain a tight grip on the game in the US. It is a closed system. 

 

This does not exist in the sport of soccer. The next "tier" of the professional game below the top league in countries around the world is made up of completely independent teams that are trying to win games, not develop players for another team up the pyramid. Successful independent 2nd tier soccer teams can look pretty close to the top tier. Soccer's fundamental structure is different to baseballs. It is an open system. 

 

MLS Next Pro is a closed system based on the uniquely American minor league structure. USL is a more open structure similar to the 2nd tier soccer leagues around the world (without the "promotion / relegation" system). If all of non-MLS soccer in the US followed the American minor league system (again something that doesn't really exist in soccer), you wouldn't see the tremendous success these independent clubs have had. Teams like Louisville, Pittsburgh, Indy, Detroit, Omaha and Madison are successful because they are allowed to be more than just reserve teams. 

 

TL;DR - There are no minor leagues in soccer. For a better baseball comparison in terms of community/fan engagement: MLSNP = Arizona Complex League/Summer Collegiate. USL-C/USL-1 = AAA/AA without a parent club or a hard ceiling. 

19 hours ago, simplythis said:

Where would they play?

 

Most MLSNP teams play on university soccer fields near their parent MLS club. Some play at MiLB stadiums or their MLS teams current/former stadium. Rochester, the only other "independent" team is MLSNP, plays at a community college. The NPSL Cleveland SS splits their games between BW, Lakewood High, and Krenzler. The USL-2 Cleveland Force played all their games at Krenzler. I would expect this new team to play at Krenzler as well. 

 

No MLSNP team builds their own stadiums, so a new facility would be unlikely in the coming announcement. Ideally there would be upgrades to Krenzler Field which was originally built in the mid 1980s, ~5 years before Wolstein. Krenzler isn't really mentioned in the CSU master plan presentation released today, but upgrades to the facility with the help of a private partner/shared tenant could fit within its framework. 

A guy on reddit/r/mls asked  "Who the heck in Cleveland is going to care about a developmental league with no fanbase?" 

 

Mostly agree.

 

I think a few people will care, but this isn't at all like getting a USL team, which would've been really exciting news. 

 

Cleveland to get MLS NEXT Pro team

By Ken Prendergast / November 18, 2022

 

The reserve league of top-tier Major League Soccer is expected to announce on Monday that it will expand to Cleveland as the next city to gain a professional soccer team, according to sources who spoke off the record. The announcement will be made at 1 p.m. Nov. 21 at Pins Mechanical on West 25th Street in Ohio City by Michael Murphy. He led the effort locally to land the MLS NEXT Pro (MLSNP) team.

 

MORE:

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/11/18/cleveland-to-get-mls-next-pro-team/

If they could expand seats at Krenzler field how many seats could it hold ?

I don't know much about soccer, but it seems reasonable that a MLS Next Pro team, especially an independent one in a relatively major market like ours, could eventually be upgraded to full MLS status.  Especially as the sport grows in popularity.

 

Every major city around us has a MLS team already- Columbus, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati.  I think Indianapolis has a USL team.

 

Also, do MLS and NFL teams share stadiums? And if so, could this be a part of the Haslams plan for a new Browns stadium? It sounds like there's already some relationship between the Haslams and the new MLS owner.

 

Edited November 19, 20222 yr by West153
Added content and fixed typo

What is the typical attendence for an MLS game? Do the teams in Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cincy and Indy play in a stadium built exclusively for soccer? Wasn't there was a discussion on this site a while back about building a soccer stadium somewhere behind Tower City?

What is the typical attendence for an MLS game? Do the teams in Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cincy and Indy play in a stadium built exclusively for soccer? Wasn't there was a discussion on this site a while back about building a soccer stadium somewhere behind Tower City?

As of this year the Average attendance is 21,006 with the highest attendance being Atlanta at 47,116. The Columbus crew averages 19,237 and Cincy is at 22,487.


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9 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Wasn't there was a discussion on this site a while back about building a soccer stadium somewhere behind Tower City?

 

It's in the article:

"Their favored location for a soccer stadium was on 30-acres of mostly vacant land owned by the Ohio Department of Transportation just south of the Interstate 90 Inner Belt around downtown Cleveland. The site is off Ontario Street and the new East 9th Street Extension, next to the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority’s rapid transit rail lines. The 30 acres was part of a larger, 49-acre property for which ODOT began organizing an auction in spring 2020 — right when the pandemic hit." 

11 hours ago, West153 said:

I don't know much about soccer, but it seems reasonable that a MLS Next Pro team, especially an independent one in a relatively major market like ours, could eventually be upgraded to full MLS status.  Especially as the sport grows in popularity.

 

Every major city around us has a MLS team already- Columbus, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati.  I think Indianapolis has a USL team.

 

Also, do MLS and NFL teams share stadiums? And if so, could this be a part of the Haslams plan for a new Browns stadium? It sounds like there's already some relationship between the Haslams and the new MLS owner.

 

Detroit and Pittsburgh do not/not have MLS teams.  

12 hours ago, KJP said:

Cleveland to get MLS NEXT Pro team

By Ken Prendergast / November 18, 2022

 

Hey @KJP thanks for the article.  A couple of small things, but I believe Rochester plays at Monroe Community College's stadium, not the purpose built soccer stadium in town.

 

Of the 7 new clubs, the Galaxy, Red Bulls and Atlanta have the "Team #2" name for their development teams which have been playing for a couple of years now. Most share close branding to their MLS parent club, often using 2 or B, not the same name. Nashville's MLSNP team will be playing in Huntsville, going by Huntsville City FC (this will be the first MLSNP team affiliated with an MLS club playing outside of their parent teams market). 

 

Also may be worth noting that the USL-2 Cleveland Force play all of their games at Krenzler as well. 

 

14 hours ago, West153 said:

I don't know much about soccer, but it seems reasonable that a MLS Next Pro team, especially an independent one in a relatively major market like ours, could eventually be upgraded to full MLS status.

 

MLS expansion in Cleveland is entirely out of the question (regardless of whatever non-MLS team we currently have in town). MLS is quickly running out of expansion spots, with only a few markets (and prospective owners) directly on their radar now. These include Phoenix, San Diego and Las Vegas. The most likely Northeastern/Midwestern markets left are Indianapolis, Detroit or Louisville.  No pro sports league would put 3 teams in Ohio when there are a number of comparable or larger media markets without in state competition still open. 

 

14 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

What is the typical attendence for an MLS game? Do the teams in Detroit, Pittsburgh, Cincy and Indy play in a stadium built exclusively for soccer?

 

Cincinnati and Columbus represent Ohio in MLS. Our other peer cities with clubs Louisville, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh and Detroit all play in USL-C. Their stadiums are all either built or renovated for soccer. They draw between ~10,000 - 4,000 in those stadiums. 

 
It's in the article:
"Their favored location for a soccer stadium was on 30-acres of mostly vacant land owned by the Ohio Department of Transportation just south of the Interstate 90 Inner Belt around downtown Cleveland. The site is off Ontario Street and the new East 9th Street Extension, next to the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority’s rapid transit rail lines. The 30 acres was part of a larger, 49-acre property for which ODOT began organizing an auction in spring 2020 — right when the pandemic hit." 

By rapid transit lines? Ballpark village but make it for soccer.


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3 hours ago, Luke_S said:

 

It's in the article:

"Their favored location for a soccer stadium was on 30-acres of mostly vacant land owned by the Ohio Department of Transportation just south of the Interstate 90 Inner Belt around downtown Cleveland."

Maybe a new football stadium would be better on that site, if it is large enough. Building a new stadium for a developmental league soccer team doesn't make sense. And especially with no chance of ever getting into MLS. Just upgrade Krenzler Field.

 

Edited November 19, 20222 yr by LibertyBlvd

5 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Maybe a new football stadium would be better on that site, if it is large enough.

 

IIRC from one of Ken's other articles it is a potential site of a new Browns stadium, but that's a better question for @KJP

 

I'd like to see them combined. Not sure why it couldn't function like RoMoFiHo with the Cavs/Monsters, just close off the upper bowl for soccer matches if there isn't enough draw. 

 

There's also the I-90 of it all which really separates that site from what could be a cohesive arena district. 

Edited November 19, 20222 yr by Luke_S

This site concept I drew based on sources was from this article.....

https://neo-trans.blog/2022/06/17/browns-leaning-toward-new-stadium/

 

44 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Maybe a new football stadium would be better on that site, if it is large enough. Building a new stadium for a developmental league soccer team doesn't make sense. And especially with no chance of ever getting into MLS. Just upgrade Krenzler Field.

 

 

The new stadium would've been for USL. The MLS development games draw something like 500 people. 

3 minutes ago, surfohio said:

 

The new stadium would've been for USL. The MLS development games draw something like 500 people. 

 

In their first season.

17 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

In their first season.

 

These development teams have been playing for years though. They even played in the USL for a few years: 

 

https://www.transfermarkt.com/new-york-red-bulls-u23/besucherzahlenentwicklung/verein/39815

Yet it's most-viewed article on NEOtrans today, beating out #2 "Downtown lakefront buildings for sale" and #3 "CSU releases campus master plan." So thousands of people care. They have to find a way to translate that interest into putting butts in the seats.

31 minutes ago, surfohio said:

50 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

In their first season.

 

These development teams have been playing for years though. They even played in the USL for a few years: 

 

https://www.transfermarkt.com/new-york-red-bulls-u23/besucherzahlenentwicklung/verein/39815

 

Ya the Galaxy and Red Bulls 2 teams have been around for over 7 years. They average ~350 spectators, in the 2 largest markets in the country (while being directly affiliated with 2 of the longest running MLS teams). Toronto 2 and Orlando B (also ~7 years old) were averaging around ~200 in USL-1. New England 2 averaged 155 fans in Gillette Stadium while in USL-1. 

1 hour ago, NorthShore647 said:

 

Ya the Galaxy and Red Bulls 2 teams have been around for over 7 years. They average ~350 spectators, in the 2 largest markets in the country (while being directly affiliated with 2 of the longest running MLS teams). Toronto 2 and Orlando B (also ~7 years old) were averaging around ~200 in USL-1. New England 2 averaged 155 fans in Gillette Stadium while in USL-1. 

 

Then I'm glad I'm able to get some good advertising revenues from a nothingburger!

1 hour ago, KJP said:

Then I'm glad I'm able to get some good advertising revenues from a nothingburger!

 

That is a good sign I’m happy to see! There is a pretty sizable soccer community in the region that would want to support a local club. There are many southern and eastern European migrants that have continued playing the game since they arrived in Northeast Ohio, along with thousands of newer arrivals from around the world. The game has also seen a broad rise in popularity nationally that doesn’t appear to be slowing. 

 

Unfortunately though, for many years no organization or ownership group has been able to build an organization above the NPSL level. I want this new group to succeed (as a soccer fan, and a Cleveland fan), and it certainly can if done correctly, it will just have a lower ceiling then what this city could support. This Cleveland team can work, it’ll just be in spite of, not because of MLSNP.

2 hours ago, NorthShore647 said:

 

Ya the Galaxy and Red Bulls 2 teams have been around for over 7 years. They average ~350 spectators, in the 2 largest markets in the country (while being directly affiliated with 2 of the longest running MLS teams). Toronto 2 and Orlando B (also ~7 years old) were averaging around ~200 in USL-1. New England 2 averaged 155 fans in Gillette Stadium while in USL-1. 

All those teams play in the same market as an MLS team.  I think the ceiling is much higher for a team in Cleveland if it’s the highest-level soccer team in the city.  I’d guess the ceiling is still pretty low, but hopefully over 1000.  I think a soccer-specific stadium would be a driver for some extra attendance for awhile at least assuming it had some nice amenities.

2 hours ago, acd said:

All those teams play in the same market as an MLS team.  I think the ceiling is much higher for a team in Cleveland if it’s the highest-level soccer team in the city.  I’d guess the ceiling is still pretty low, but hopefully over 1000.  I think a soccer-specific stadium would be a driver for some extra attendance for awhile at least assuming it had some nice amenities.

 

A soccer-specific stadium is an especially good investment if we can assume that Cleveland Force SC has plans on moving up to a higher division in the USL.  The MLS Next team can share the stadium and perhaps even CSU as well. 

 

**Now I am very out of the loop on the Force and have no inside info, but it totally makes sense for them to ascend. The USL-C has a lot of great supportive markets (Tampa, Pitt, Detroit, Milwaukee, San Diego, Phoenix, San Antonio, OKC, etc) and it's a steady league that's going to keep getting better. 

That soccer article has 5,600 views (not too bad so far) and a duration of just over 4.5 minutes. So people are reading it, not just glancing at it.

Such a missed opportunity to have MLSNEXTPRO and not USL-C. Cleveland is an established major league market with a great reputation for support of its pro teams, and, although USL-C is technically “second division,” the independent clubs in that league do not act or feel “minor league.”  Not to mention, a USL-C club could establish good rivalries in open cup matches against Columbus and Cincinnati in addition to regional USL rivals like Pittsburgh, an eventual Milwaukee club, Detroit, Indy, and Louisville. 
 

While MLSNEXTPRO serves a good technical purpose, its main purpose is not to provide a community with a local team they can truly rally behind (no matter what some suits want to believe). 

Edited November 21, 20222 yr by Gordon Bombay

https://www.cleveland.com/sports/2022/11/cleveland-set-to-add-mls-next-pro-soccer-team-in-2025.html