50 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

I thought the TMUDs were for projects that were basically "shovel ready" and just needed to close the funding gap to get things started.

I also was under the impression that that was one of the major criteria for an award.  However, if Michelle Jabore's reporting is accurate, the Kassoufs still have their hands out in order  to wrap up financing.  Moreover, it was  suggested in her article that some of the monies they are seeking, in addition to an increase in historic tax credits already awarded to them, are public incentives from the city.  We all know how long and often controversial that process can be (just ask the Starks...their legal counsel came up with idea of TMUDs due to issues they were having securing public incentives).  How shovel ready can the project be?

Edited December 8, 20222 yr by Htsguy

Channel 3 Story. https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/cleveland-erieview-tower-converted-luxury-hotel-apartments-galleria/95-95d33f29-2b32-492d-adcd-d08966a66749

Cleveland is getting a W? Fan-f'ing-tastic!

Combined with The Centennial right now (I have VERY little faith that Millennia will start anytime soon) and if Erieview doesn’t start when they say they will, I feel this will leave a bad impression on the commission that awards the money. Leading to them having a hesitancy to award us a bulk of the money in the future. Those two projects alone have accounted for 33% of the major city money awarded over the past two years.


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Cleveland is getting a W? Fan-f'ing-tastic!

Supposedly.


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It will be nice to have a restaurant at the top again, assuming this project happens.

Hey, I'm all about being cynical and sarcastic. But there is reason for optimism, as there's actual momentum to an existing and interested tenant as opposed to the Haslem/Stark/Gilbert pie-in-the-sky abstract plans. I seriously doubt the developer just made up the W's interest.

 

Combine that with the desperate need to re-purpose the Galleria - with Winking Lizard moving, all that's left is the YMCA and Hungarian museum - and it's cause for some cheer. 

i wonder if or how much current funding ability is considered in the tmud process? of course they have to show they need this much $$$ to do that. but don't they also have to show how they have all the rest of the funding lined up to make a project work? i guess not, because if that was so then this would not have passed tmud muster. or maybe they do have to show they have other funding and fibbed about it. who knows?

This project just won another $5 million in Ohio historic tax credits today. I believe they have now won a total of $10 million in historic tax credits to date in addition to the TMUD award. The family keeps winning public support. I think they’re also looking for more incentives from the city and county whatever those may be. Let’s hope they can get the job done.

If 10 million in historic tax credits plus TMUD money doesn’t kickstart this project - you gotta wonder what will.  Hopefully remaining incentives from the city are not what makes or breaks this project which would really energize that section of downtown. 

21 hours ago, Htsguy said:

I think they’re also looking for more incentives from the city and county whatever those may be. Let’s hope they can get the job done.

 

He has friends in Washington, maybe he should go there first.

We are quick to jump all over Sinito and the slow pace of things at Centennial.  Remember the Kassouff's also have historic tax credit and a TMUD award.  If I recall work was was suppose to start early this year on the conversion.  We will see.

On 2/4/2023 at 10:06 AM, Htsguy said:

We are quick to jump all over Sinito and the slow pace of things at Centennial.  Remember the Kassouff's also have historic tax credit and a TMUD award.  If I recall work was was suppose to start early this year on the conversion.  We will see.

 

Oh don't worry I think about that too every night I drive down Rt. 2 and stare at an almost completely dark Erieview Tower 🤣

And I hope that not only is the tower repopulated but also lit up decoratively commensurate with the 4th (soon to be 5th) tallest building of the city. It’s always been a dark tower in the night skyline. 

And not much better during the day.

2 hours ago, CleveFan said:

 It’s always been a dark tower in the night skyline. 

Darkness at the top of Erieview tower was part of the ambience inside in the old "Top of the Town"  restaurant some 40 years ago when I last visited!  😉

Edited February 5, 20232 yr by DO_Summers

3 hours ago, LibertyBlvd said:

And not much better during the day.

I actually like that it's a dark green tower as opposed to beige and granite like 85% of everything else tall in our skyline. It makes it stand out in the day light.

I may be in the minority but I had never liked The Galleria's architecture that was added to the original Erieview site.  I look forward to seeing what plans may be in store

I haven’t followed this development so I apologize if I’m overlooking something, but have there been any plans to redevelop the shopping mall portion of Erieview? It takes up a lot of real estate downtown, but not sure what they could do with it…

9 hours ago, dave2017 said:

I may be in the minority but I had never liked The Galleria's architecture that was added to the original Erieview site.  I look forward to seeing what plans may be in store

It’s a perfect example of the very worst of 80s mall architecture. 

Isn't there a YMCA occupying most of the space in Galleria now?

I think the Galleria has aged well visually.  It brings lightness to the corner of 9th & St Clair.  It was a high quality project then and it still shows. That there arent enough options right now for it is okay.  It's a 90s building for sure, but not a bad one IMO, and buildings from every era offers something worthy to the Clevo mix.

57 minutes ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Isn't there a YMCA occupying most of the space in Galleria now?

They don't occupy most of it, it may even be just a quarter of the space on just the first floor. 

Edited February 6, 20232 yr by Mov2Ohio
Double quote

1 hour ago, LibertyBlvd said:

Isn't there a YMCA occupying most of the space in Galleria now?

This thread inspired me to discover this YouTube tour of the Galleria from a couple years ago. I was hoping to find one from the 2000s/2010s, but the recent video is interesting too:

 

 

On 2/6/2023 at 12:46 PM, BuckeyeNative said:

I haven’t followed this development so I apologize if I’m overlooking something, but have there been any plans to redevelop the shopping mall portion of Erieview? It takes up a lot of real estate downtown, but not sure what they could do with it…

I think it would be great as an above-ground entrance to a subway station..... (c'mon powerball!)

On 2/6/2023 at 12:46 PM, BuckeyeNative said:

I haven’t followed this development so I apologize if I’m overlooking something, but have there been any plans to redevelop the shopping mall portion of Erieview? It takes up a lot of real estate downtown, but not sure what they could do with it…

I seem to recall a proposal to construct a building at the E 9th St end and just keep the middle section between the new building and Erieview Tower.  Does anyone remember that or was I dreaming?

Any story behind the chunk of façade that's missing here?

 

^ Relatively small ding, so more likely Godzooky than Godzilla. 

9 hours ago, GISguy said:

Any story behind the chunk of façade that's missing here?

 

Kind of an unconventional way to start construction, but hey it's Kassouf

There's news coming soon with this project, and unfortunately it isn't good news... 

This is hardly surprising.  I hate to beat a dead horse but I can sum up the problem in one word.  Kassouff.

And whatever the bad news is, this doesn't say much for the geniuses at the agency who evaluate TMUD applications.

1 hour ago, zbaris87 said:

There's news coming soon with this project, and unfortunately it isn't good news... 

 

is this another hyped up "bad news coming!!" hint that turns out to be nothing new like the Browns news from the other day? 😉

53 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

And whatever the bad news is, this doesn't say much for the geniuses at the agency who evaluate TMUD applications.

 

It'll be interesting to see in another few years to go back at the list of TMUD approved projects and see how many are actually completed. I think, at least in Cleveland, most seem to be moving forward? The only big one is the Centennial one that is still eons away from fruition. And I guess probably this one too.

1 hour ago, dwolfi01 said:

 

is this another hyped up "bad news coming!!" hint that turns out to be nothing new like the Browns news from the other day? 😉

 

Remember when I posted in the hotel thread that two of those half-dozen hotel projects in/near downtown aren't happening as planned?

 

1 hour ago, dwolfi01 said:

 

It'll be interesting to see in another few years to go back at the list of TMUD approved projects and see how many are actually completed. I think, at least in Cleveland, most seem to be moving forward? The only big one is the Centennial one that is still eons away from fruition. And I guess probably this one too.

 

If the TMUD credits aren't used, they go back to the state to re-awarded.

Kassouf, as in oof.

 

Apropos.

3 hours ago, zbaris87 said:

There's news coming soon with this project, and unfortunately it isn't good news... 

 

2 hours ago, dwolfi01 said:

 

is this another hyped up "bad news coming!!" hint that turns out to be nothing new like the Browns news from the other day? 😉

@zbaris87 has been a consistent provider of quality information on numerous local projects. Rather than attempting to dunk on him, my suggestion is to read between the lines on the recent news. Ken’s posts here are in some ways more illuminating than the formal article.

29 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Remember when I posted in the hotel thread that two of those half-dozen hotel projects in/near downtown aren't happening as planned?

 

Yes and you had me really worried one of those was Bridgeworks and I was going to be super disappointed again but my guess was happily wrong 😅

2 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Remember when I posted in the hotel thread that two of those half-dozen hotel projects in/near downtown aren't happening as planned?

 

 

If the TMUD credits aren't used, they go back to the state to re-awarded.

That is all well and good.  However, the state making a poor choice in the first instance does have consequences.  If they had done a good job of reviewing the applications and awarded the TMUD to an appropriate deserving project, we might already have shovels in the ground instead of waiting for some unknown future project.

 

You always hear that one of the factors being considered by the state is the viability of the project and whether it is shovel ready and only looking to close that last financing gap.  So was this the actually case at Erieview and if it was, what then happen to torpedo the project?   Or did the state just do a bad job when analyzing all the information provided by the applicant?

 

A good example of this blunder could be Bridgework.  This was a project put forward by diligent and aggressive developers with a proven track record of getting things built (in contrast to the Kassouffs).  Even when they lost out on TMUDs twice they still worked hard to close the financing gap  and hammered away at the details and scope of the project so the numbers would work.  In my mind they were ideal applicants.  If they had been awarded a TMUD either time Bridgework would probably already be under construction and there would be no need for the county to step in and make a two million dollar loan. Again, all well and good that the credit will not go to waste but I hope the state does a better job evaluating in the future.

Edited March 1, 20232 yr by Htsguy

I wonder if any applicants lied to get millions of dollars? I wonder how much ability the Ohio Tax Credit Authority has to scrutinize the financial data in those applications?

 

It's not like any of the applicants have previously committed felonies or anything.

from the scene:

 

 

Vintage Photos of Cleveland's Erieview Tower and Plaza as Cleveland's 4th Tallest Building is Set for Second Life as Hotel/Apartments

 

By Scene Staff

 

 

In 1964, Erieview Plaza and Tower was built at the corner of East 12th St. and Rockwell Ave. 

Originally envisioned by I.M. Pei as part of a larger redevelopment that would include greenspaces and other buildings, the tower, currently the 4th tallest building in Cleveland, was built by another architect and only parts of Pei's plan were accomplished by other architects over the years across what was planned as a 163-acre, two phase development.

It was also derided by Ada Louise Huxtable, The New York Times architecture critic, in the early 70s, who wrote, "The Erieview project stands as a kind of monument to everything that was wrong with urban renewal thinking in America in the 1960's. There is a large, abortive plan by the architect I. M. Pei, long on desolate, overscaled spaces, destructive of cohesive urbanism and defiantly antihuman."

It is finding a second life as a nearly $100-million project is inthe works to turn the lower floors into the first W Hotel in Ohio and the upper floors into 227 upscale apartments.

Here's what Erieview has looked like through the years.

All photos via The Cleveland Memory Project.

 

 

more:

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/vintage-photos-of-clevelands-erieview-tower-and-plaza-as-clevelands-4th-tallest-building-is-set-for-second-life-as-hotel-apartments/Slideshow/41675413

 

Pei's original master plan, which was never realized.

 

1 hour ago, mrnyc said:

from the scene:

 

 

Vintage Photos of Cleveland's Erieview Tower and Plaza as Cleveland's 4th Tallest Building is Set for Second Life as Hotel/Apartments

 

By Scene Staff

 

 

In 1964, Erieview Plaza and Tower was built at the corner of East 12th St. and Rockwell Ave. 

Originally envisioned by I.M. Pei as part of a larger redevelopment that would include greenspaces and other buildings, the tower, currently the 4th tallest building in Cleveland, was built by another architect and only parts of Pei's plan were accomplished by other architects over the years across what was planned as a 163-acre, two phase development.

It was also derided by Ada Louise Huxtable, The New York Times architecture critic, in the early 70s, who wrote, "The Erieview project stands as a kind of monument to everything that was wrong with urban renewal thinking in America in the 1960's. There is a large, abortive plan by the architect I. M. Pei, long on desolate, overscaled spaces, destructive of cohesive urbanism and defiantly antihuman."

It is finding a second life as a nearly $100-million project is inthe works to turn the lower floors into the first W Hotel in Ohio and the upper floors into 227 upscale apartments.

Here's what Erieview has looked like through the years.

All photos via The Cleveland Memory Project.

 

 

more:

https://www.clevescene.com/cleveland/vintage-photos-of-clevelands-erieview-tower-and-plaza-as-clevelands-4th-tallest-building-is-set-for-second-life-as-hotel-apartments/Slideshow/41675413

 

Pei's original master plan, which was never realized.

 

 

Kinda glad we didn't get more of it.  Erieview Tower is enough.

pretty crazy how much of the e12 portion ended up being built

3 hours ago, Whipjacka said:

pretty crazy how much of the e12 portion ended up being built

Right, it somewhat makes me believe that the Erieview project was a success with regard to redeveloping the area.  And really, in the grand scheme of things, the Galleria which opened in the mid 80s was only 20 years after Erieview opened, and only a few to 10 years after the rest of the Highrise office and residential.  One would think it should've been a huge success with all the life infused in the area.  Unfortunately the demise of the Galleria probably set this area, and the retail scene in Cleveland, back.

Looking at the image of Pei's original master plan, Erieview tower appears to be a bit farther east, cutting off E 12th.  All those low-rise building around the tower look hideous.

Don't count on the W hotel/apartments ever coming to this site. Sources say that they're out... 

6 minutes ago, zbaris87 said:

Don't count on the W hotel/apartments ever coming to this site. Sources say that they're out... 

 

 

number of us who are shocked: 0

 

sad to say, right? ugh.

I don't know what's worse. Pei's Erieview master plan or Kassouf's laughable attempt at real estate development. 

 

On second thought l have to go with Pei as the worst. After all, he was a professional and should have known better while Kassouf is just a parking lot guy who doesn't know anything more than how to squeeze in more cars into smaller spaces.

The low rise buildings look like a fortress of Brutalist buildings. I know architecture enthusiasts love Brutalism but no thank you.


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