Commission Weighs in on North Market Proposal

 

 

The latest proposal to redevelop the North Market’s parking lot got its first review from the Downtown Commission this morning.

 

The design presented was the same as the one unveiled in July, but more details were provided, including additional visuals that show the building from different angles.

 

Steve Schoeny, the outgoing Director of Development for the City of Columbus, kicked off the presentation with an overview of the project.

 

“We started with a great concept,” he said, alluding to the tower that was first proposed for the site in 2017. “That idea has (now) been more fully fleshed out…we’ve maintained the importance of the street grid, mantained the pedestrian scale of the street grid, and we’ve found ways to make the street and the market interact better.”

 

More below:

https://www.columbusunderground.com/commission-weighs-in-on-north-market-proposal-bw1

 

 

 

Petition to stop building pools on the north side of a building that will catch almost no sun.

1 hour ago, DarkandStormy said:

 

 

Reading these initial takes is so sad.  If it stands at 26 stories / 333 feet (and I'm doubtful it will), it would only be slightly taller than Miranova and become (barely) the 2nd building over 300 feet since 2000.

I am not happy with this rendition really, but maybe a better way to think of it is that if it is this height, this and the Hilton addition will be the first towers over 100 meters (328feet) in what?-over 30 years?-and will take our number of such towers from 14 to 16.*  100 meters is what is usually considered a skyscraper vs a highrise by such authorities as Emporis and I believe the CTBUH.  Trying to look at the glass as half full here.

 

*and to really be optimistic, Millennial Tower would take us to 17! 

Edited September 24, 20195 yr by Toddguy

Meh.  It's reduced in size, it's boring in design, it's the worst rendering yet.  And it hasn't started construction yet, so there's always ways to make it even worse.  So basically, it's exactly what I figured we'd get 2 years ago.

5 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

Meh.  It's reduced in size, it's boring in design, it's the worst rendering yet.  And it hasn't started construction yet, so there's always ways to make it even worse.  So basically, it's exactly what I figured we'd get 2 years ago.

Quote

And it hasn't started construction yet, so there's always ways to make it even worse.

NO! lol! Don't jinx it! 

I honestly like this new design better than the old one. I think it will mesh well will the surrounding buildings and it will look better than the skinny tower that was initially proposed. 

 

The height reduction is obviously not ideal, but it really doesn't concern me much. It will still have a great impact on our skyline, but more importantly the mix of uses will really impact the area in a positive way. 

I agree that the current design is better than the original, 1980's-inspired PoMo proposal. 

47 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

I honestly like this new design better than the old one. I think it will mesh well will the surrounding buildings and it will look better than the skinny tower that was initially proposed. 

 

The height reduction is obviously not ideal, but it really doesn't concern me much. It will still have a great impact on our skyline, but more importantly the mix of uses will really impact the area in a positive way. 

I agree.  People are losing their minds over a few floors height decrease.  Height looks cool, sure.  But, it isn't necessary for a vibrant area and great street level foot traffic.  Look at how well the Short North has done without height.  Hell, it just was listed as one of 13 Great Neighborhoods in America by the American Planning Association:

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2019/09/25/2-central-ohio-neighborhoods-named-among-13-great.html?iana=hpmvp_colum_news_headline

Edited September 25, 20195 yr by TH3BUDDHA

The overall updated mix of components is much better too. People get a little over emotional about the number of floors a building is rather than the use and pedestrian experience. I've never really subscribed to caring what the skyline postcard looks like. 

2 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

I agree.  People are losing their minds over a few floors height decrease.  Height looks cool, sure.  But, it isn't necessary for a vibrant area and great street level foot traffic.  Look at how well the Short North has done without height.  Hell, it just was listed as one of 13 Great Neighborhoods in America by the American Planning Association:

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2019/09/25/2-central-ohio-neighborhoods-named-among-13-great.html?iana=hpmvp_colum_news_headline

 

It's a 25% height reduction on a project that was promised wouldn't be reduced at all.  It's not a few floors. 

 

The Short North is full of projects that didn't maximize the potential of their sites, especially on High.  Being a decent urban neighborhood is not the same as saying it is the best it could have been.  I can't believe we're still arguing that lower density is fine while arguing we need density to support things like better transit.  How are these not contradictory views?  I question whether anyone actually wants Columbus to be an urban city. 

Edited September 25, 20195 yr by jonoh81

6 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

It's a 25% height reduction on a project that was promised wouldn't be reduced at all.  It's not a few floors. 

 

 

In terms of floor count, it's a 25% reduction. In terms of actual height, it's only about a 15% reduction. 

 

7 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

I can't believe we're still arguing that lower density is fine while arguing we need density to support things like better transit.

 

The updated design actually increases the density of the building, from what I can tell. 

Columbus has a lot of room to fill. The trend is starting to go higher in most proposals. We are not Austin or Nashville but we are doing very well given our location. This is only the beginning and soon those blank lots will be filled and the only option will be to go higher. 

19 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

It's a 25% height reduction on a project that was promised wouldn't be reduced at all.  It's not a few floors. 

How much square footage was lost from the first rendering to the last?

 

20 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

Being a decent urban neighborhood

Apparently it's not just decent, but one of the best in the country.

3 minutes ago, Cbusflyer said:

Columbus has a lot of room to fill. The trend is starting to go higher in most proposals. We are not Austin or Nashville but we are doing very well given our location. This is only the beginning and soon those blank lots will be filled and the only option will be to go higher. 

 

I honestly don't want to be Nashville, and definitely not Austin. Austin's downtown looks pretty cool from a distance with all the new towers, but up close it's just a lot of bland expensive condo buildings. I much prefer downtown Columbus compared to downtown Austin as it stands today, and downtown Columbus will only continue to improve.

Yeah, Columbus has excellent, varied, fine-grained urbanism in its core neighborhoods, which is something both Austin and Nashville lack. Neither of them have anything that remotely resembles the Short North.

11 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

 

I honestly don't want to be Nashville, and definitely not Austin. Austin's downtown looks pretty cool from a distance with all the new towers, but up close it's just a lot of bland expensive condo buildings. I much prefer downtown Columbus compared to downtown Austin as it stands today, and downtown Columbus will only continue to improve.

Yea and Nashville's downtown buildings are just hotels to support all of the bachelorette parties. Most of their actual growth is in the burbs.  Our city has grown faster despite their city limits being over twice the size of ours.

4 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

Yeah, Columbus has excellent, varied, fine-grained urbanism in its core neighborhoods, which is something both Austin and Nashville lack. Neither of them have anything that remotely resembles the Short North.

 

Nashville at least has Broadway which at least provides a bit of character, albeit very commercialized. They also have a few other nooks and crannies around downtown, though they are still behind Columbus. Austin has absolutely nothing and will likely age horribly. 

1 hour ago, cbussoccer said:

 

In terms of floor count, it's a 25% reduction. In terms of actual height, it's only about a 15% reduction. 

 

 

The updated design actually increases the density of the building, from what I can tell. 

 

Agreed. If someone is able to find the numbers to better support that but my imoression is that overall, while there is a height reduction, there will be more space in terms of square footage, usage etc. But that would have to be verified 

I don't care about height reduction. The increased density is great, but the value engineering has ruined this project for me. The streetscape is hideous with the garage and ugly, useless plaza and atrium. I thought this was supposed to be grand? How can the developers not afford better? They didn't have to buy the expensive land or build as much expensive parking as usual because of the Vine Street Garage. This is a center point between the Arena District and the Short North. If they can't afford to do this right, I'd prefer they not do it at all.

2 minutes ago, aderwent said:

I don't care about height reduction. The increased density is great, but the value engineering has ruined this project for me. The streetscape is hideous with the garage and ugly, useless plaza and atrium. I thought this was supposed to be grand? How can the developers not afford better?

 

Lack of supply lets developers get away with things.

So what I'm getting is that Columbus will always be a 2nd or 3rd tier city at best and unlikely to ever have comprehensive transit.  It's a city that merely takes what it can get, not strives for anything better. High standards.  Maybe I need to start looking elsewhere. 

Just now, jonoh81 said:

So what I'm getting is that Columbus will always be a 2nd or 3rd tier city at best and unlikely to ever have comprehensive transit.  It's a city that merely takes what it can get, not strives for anything better. High standards.  Maybe I need to start looking elsewhere. 

 

Yep, a tower got reduced by about 60 feet, yet actually increased the overall square footage, which clearly proves to everyone that Columbus is just a loser of a city and will never have comprehensive transit because comprehensive transit is obviously related to 60 foot height reduction of a mixed-use tower.

 

Go find JMan in the CU comments section and you two can have a pity party. 

^^^^This is true. Density is the more important to the health of the city than some crazy high tower for the sake of changing the skyline. Just think of DC, in this instance.

 

This project is overall adding more despite a height reduction, and I assume it's being done at a realist cost as well.

 

Also, you might like it when it's done.

4 minutes ago, Zyrokai said:

^^^^This is true. Density is the more important to the health of the city than some crazy high tower for the sake of changing the skyline.

 

Agreed. And the reduction in height isn't even going to drastically change the building's impact on the skyline. It went from a 400 foot tower to a 333 foot tower. Given it's placement relative to the rest of downtown, anything over ~175 feet would have been very noticeable. 

58 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

 

Yep, a tower got reduced by about 60 feet, yet actually increased the overall square footage, which clearly proves to everyone that Columbus is just a loser of a city and will never have comprehensive transit because comprehensive transit is obviously related to 60 foot height reduction of a mixed-use tower.

 

Go find JMan in the CU comments section and you two can have a pity party. 

 

This project is a symptom the gets repeated again and again and again.  You really think my entire comment is based on this single project?  I'm just tired of the "good enough" attitude, which is far more pervasive than all the Clintonville, VV, UA and GV NIMBYism put together.  Fawning over every project or trying to find the bright side every time is not helpful.  The North Market tower is certainly not the worst example, but in declaring absolute victory and making excuses for the flaws, like is done every single time a project comes in smaller or poorly designed or less dense, it misses the point I thought we were after- getting the best possible outcome.  And sorry, but no matter what anyone says, including the city, comprehensive transit is a pipe dream at this point.  You don't study something for 40-some years and end up at the exact same position if you're serious about doing it.  Ginther is not an urban champion and they were just blowing more smoke with the latest "dedicated-lane transit" talk earlier this year.  You really think Columbus residents are going to give up their travel lanes for a bus or train?  We can't even agree to build the necessary density that would be needed to support such lines, and suddenly I'm the bad guy for saying so.   So be it.

 

2 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

This project is a symptom the gets repeated again and again and again.  You really think my entire comment is based on this single project?  I'm just tired of the "good enough" attitude, which is far more pervasive than all the Clintonville, VV, UA and GV NIMBYism put together.  Fawning over every project or trying to find the bright side every time is not helpful.  The North Market tower is certainly not the worst example, but in declaring absolute victory and making excuses for the flaws, like is done every single time a project comes in smaller or poorly designed or less dense, it misses the point I thought we were after- getting the best possible outcome.  And sorry, but no matter what anyone says, including the city, comprehensive transit is a pipe dream at this point.  You don't study something for 40-some years and end up at the exact same position if you're serious about doing it.  Ginther is not an urban champion and they were just blowing more smoke with the latest "dedicated-lane transit" talk earlier this year.  You really think Columbus residents are going to give up their travel lanes for a bus or train?  We can't even agree to build the necessary density that would be needed to support such lines, and suddenly I'm the bad guy for saying so.   So be it.

 

 

Go home, pour yourself a drink, close your eyes, and relax. Everything will be ok.

 

Also, what does this have to do with transit? 

4 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

 

Go home, pour yourself a drink, close your eyes, and relax. Everything will be ok.

 

Also, what does this have to do with transit? 

 

Pretty sure I explained what it all has to do with transit.  Anyway, I'll stay out of the development threads from now on. 

3 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Pretty sure I explained what it all has to do with transit.  Anyway, I'll stay out of the development threads from now on. 

 

Nobody told you to stay out of the development threads. We are simply explaining that this project, while disappointing us with a reduction in height, is still an excellent project for the city. 

20 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

 

Nobody told you to stay out of the development threads. We are simply explaining that this project, while disappointing us with a reduction in height, is still an excellent project for the city. 

 

Great.  I just don't want to be in the position of being the dissent all the time, and I think that's what's happening.  I keep thinking of that old poster Columbusite/Keith.  No thanks. 

Edited September 25, 20195 yr by jonoh81

6 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Great.  I just don't want to be in the position of being the dissent all the time, and I think that's what's happening.  I keep thinking of that old poster Columbusite/Keith.  No thanks. 

There's nothing wrong with being critical of projects.  There are a lot in Columbus that are huge disappointments(The Nicholas).  I just don't think that this particular project warrants panic about the state of Columbus development.  But, to each their own.

Edited September 25, 20195 yr by TH3BUDDHA

37 minutes ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

There's nothing wrong with being critical of projects.  There are a lot in Columbus that are huge disappointments(The Nicholas).  I just don't think that this particular project warrants panic about the state of Columbus development.  But, to each their own.

 

So which are the appropriate projects to be critical of?  At what height/density does it become acceptable?  It seems to me that it's much more acceptable to be critical of a Nicholas type project than it is one like the market tower, and yet they both can be just as flawed.  People get googly-eyed over towers, but if they're suffering from a lot of the same problems that small projects are, it's just as relevant to be critical of both.  Years ago when Columbus couldn't get a project past 5 stories, I was told the *exact* same things I'm being told now- that while it may not be perfect, it's much better than other projects and shouldn't be the hill to die on.  We're stuck with an awful lot of 4-6-story buildings in prime locations now.  They're still getting built.  Obviously North Market tower is significantly taller and denser, but the same question exists for it that was asked about HighPoint, the Nicholas, the Swan Cleaners building, pretty much all of Neighborhood Launch, the Matan, LC at RiverSouth, 80 on the Commons, the Short North UDF building, the Mercantile building, etc... is it the best project possible for the site?  Is it the best that could've been done?  For the North Market tower, it's not just about the height.  It's about lowered expectations.  I don't want to be put into a position to lower my expectations for a city I'm from and love.

I read these forums everyday. I don’t ever reply or make any comments but even if the current version sucks, which it does, it’s still a great addition to the skyline. Would I rather have a 35 story tower? HELL F’ing yes I would! But considering we haven’t had much construction over 12 stories in the last 20 years, I’ll take what we can get. 

Edited September 25, 20195 yr by WagHills

3 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

So which are the appropriate projects to be critical of?  At what height/density does it become acceptable?  It seems to me that it's much more acceptable to be critical of a Nicholas type project than it is one like the market tower, and yet they both can be just as flawed.  People get googly-eyed over towers, but if they're suffering from a lot of the same problems that small projects are, it's just as relevant to be critical of both.  Years ago when Columbus couldn't get a project past 5 stories, I was told the *exact* same things I'm being told now- that while it may not be perfect, it's much better than other projects and shouldn't be the hill to die on.  We're stuck with an awful lot of 4-6-story buildings in prime locations now.  They're still getting built.  Obviously North Market tower is significantly taller and denser, but the same question exists for it that was asked about HighPoint, the Nicholas, the Swan Cleaners building, pretty much all of Neighborhood Launch, the Matan, LC at RiverSouth, 80 on the Commons, the Short North UDF building, the Mercantile building, etc... is it the best project possible for the site?  Is it the best that could've been done?  For the North Market tower, it's not just about the height.  It's about lowered expectations.  I don't want to be put into a position to lower my expectations for a city I'm from and love.

Ok.  What WOULD have made you happy with this project?

On another note, non-comparative note. at one time, I believe there was a concept floated would have actually turned spruce street into a pedestrian only plaza from the convention center. I can't find it but I vaguely remember a conceptual drawing of it as part of a larger 'convention center district' plan or something. 

 

Also, does this plan alter or eliminate the stress parking on spruce. Perhaps these are opportunities to take from cars and give back to pedestrians as a way to spruce up the NM Plaza and pedestrian experience from the convention center. 

On 9/24/2019 at 3:30 PM, ColDayMan said:

Commission Weighs in on North Market Proposal

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How far we've come! Great job, Wood! I mean, yikes! This iteration is just awful. This article from Columbus Underground seems to never have been posted here:

 

https://www.columbusunderground.com/market-tower-more-on-parking-public-spaces-and-the-case-for-going-big-bw1

 

Read through that knowing what they plan on building now and it's a giant slap in the face. Again, if they can't afford to do it right, I'd prefer they not do it at all.

6 hours ago, DTCL11 said:

On another note, non-comparative note. at one time, I believe there was a concept floated would have actually turned spruce street into a pedestrian only plaza from the convention center. I can't find it but I vaguely remember a conceptual drawing of it as part of a larger 'convention center district' plan or something. 

 

Also, does this plan alter or eliminate the stress parking on spruce. Perhaps these are opportunities to take from cars and give back to pedestrians as a way to spruce up the NM Plaza and pedestrian experience from the convention center. 

 

This entire area, including Spruce, Park, Vine, Swan........should be pedestrian only. Columbus isn't this bold, though.

35 minutes ago, aderwent said:

 

How far we've come! Great job, Wood! I mean, yikes! This iteration is just awful. This article from Columbus Underground seems to never have been posted here:

 

https://www.columbusunderground.com/market-tower-more-on-parking-public-spaces-and-the-case-for-going-big-bw1

 

Read through that knowing what they plan on building now and it's a giant slap in the face. Again, if they can't afford to do it right, I'd prefer they not do it at all.

 

If they can't build their 26-story, 333 foot tall, mixed-use tower to the exact specifications you demand based on your endless supplies of money, we should totally should just stick with what we currently have....which is this:

 

 

I mean just look at that beautiful mixed-use surface lot. You can park pickup trucks, minivans, SUVs, you name it! This is certainly preferable to the 333 foot mixed-use tower that will not only be a great addition to our skyline, but will add to the vibrancy of the area.

 

Look, I totally get your complaints about the changes from the original proposal to the current design. The fact that they held a design competition, picked a winner, and then allowed the winner to move forward with a totally different design is nonsense. The fact that the street level design appears to have been scrubbed to the bare bones is frustrating. The point is this project is still head and shoulders above most anything that's been built in the past 10 years. Yes, there are things to get frustrated with, but this isn't the project to lose your mind over. There are many others you could pick from. 

 

 

22 minutes ago, cbussoccer said:

 

If they can't build their 26-story, 333 foot tall, mixed-use tower to the exact specifications you demand based on your endless supplies of money, we should totally should just stick with what we currently have....which is this:

 

 

I mean just look at that beautiful mixed-use surface lot. You can park pickup trucks, minivans, SUVs, you name it! This is certainly preferable to the 333 foot mixed-use tower that will not only be a great addition to our skyline, but will add to the vibrancy of the area.

 

Look, I totally get your complaints about the changes from the original proposal to the current design. The fact that they held a design competition, picked a winner, and then allowed the winner to move forward with a totally different design is nonsense. The fact that the street level design appears to have been scrubbed to the bare bones is frustrating. The point is this project is still head and shoulders above most anything that's been built in the past 10 years. Yes, there are things to get frustrated with, but this isn't the project to lose your mind over. There are many others you could pick from. 

 

 

A building not done right here won't be able to be rectified perhaps ever. This is probably the most prime development spot in Columbus; it's at the epicenter of tourism, offices, and in-demand neighborhoods. They absolutely should not be cutting any corners. Period. The streetscape and atrium portion of this is absolutely horrific, and it's not even close to being "head and shoulders above most anything that's been built in the past 10 years." You laid out major, glaringly obvious problems this project has become, but then just say we should complain about other projects instead? No thanks.

 

These guys went from underground parking on an unpaid for lot to a street-vibe killing garage. They signed on a hotel, and almost doubled the office space, but still must value-engineer it to this mess of a project? How is that possible with the savings galore this project has come with? They even got $5 million for the atrium. I mean, this is ridiculous, and we shouldn't stand to just accept it.

12 minutes ago, aderwent said:

A building not done right here won't be able to be rectified perhaps ever. This is probably the most prime development spot in Columbus; it's at the epicenter of tourism, offices, and in-demand neighborhoods. They absolutely should not be cutting any corners. Period. The streetscape and atrium portion of this is absolutely horrific, and it's not even close to being "head and shoulders above most anything that's been built in the past 10 years." You laid out major, glaringly obvious problems this project has become, but then just say we should complain about other projects instead? No thanks.

 

These guys went from underground parking on an unpaid for lot to a street-vibe killing garage. They signed on a hotel, and almost doubled the office space, but still must value-engineer it to this mess of a project? How is that possible with the savings galore this project has come with? They even got $5 million for the atrium. I mean, this is ridiculous, and we shouldn't stand to just accept it.

 

Ok. You hate the project and prefer the surface lot. The majority of us are excited by the project while noting the few disappointing features. Let's move on. This is not going to doom the future of the city of Columbus. 

Look, I personally have some issues with the final design but not enough to write off the whole project. My reasoning, I have never seen a project that I didn't have some issue with on one level or another. Wether it be the design, materials, parking, or lighting, there is always something I think could be improved, hell I even feel this way about the new Crew Stadium which I love. Based on that perspective, I do still think this one overall is a good damn project. No project will ever be perfect because personal taste; North Market tower lost height but gained square footage, Gravity II lost the exo-skeleton but gained more units, Parks Edge could have been 20 floors... every project has flaws but that doesn't make them bad or with throwing out... and this isn't exclusive to Columbus. 

 

Anyway, I just wanted to call out that I believe the renders above are just architectural renders, like bare minimum to show the structure but not any actual details in terms pedestrian features. Below are some spruced up renders that I think show a bit more what they have planned vs bare concrete.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 20195 yr by DevolsDance

3 minutes ago, DevolsDance said:

Look, I personally have some issues with the final design but not enough to write off the whole project. My reasoning, I have never seen a project that I didn't have some issue with on one level or another. Wether it be the design, materials, parking, or lighting, there is always something I think could be improved, hell I even feel this way about the new Crew Stadium which I love. Based on that perspective, I do still think this one overall is a good damn project. No project will ever be perfect because personal taste; North Market tower lost height but gained square footage, Gravity II lost the exo-skeleton but gained more units, Parks Edge could have been 20 floors... every project has flaws but that doesn't make them bad or with throwing out... and this isn't exclusive to Columbus. 

 

Anyway, I just wanted to call out that I believe the renders above are just architectural renders, like bare minimum to show the structure but not any actual details in terms pedestrian features. Below are some spruced up renders that I think show a bit more what they have planned vs bare concrete.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was looking for this render but couldn't find it, so thanks for posting! 

15 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

Ok.  What WOULD have made you happy with this project?

 

Nothing. Everything is perfect and I was totally wrong for questioning it.  High fives all around.

20 hours ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Great.  I just don't want to be in the position of being the dissent all the time, and I think that's what's happening.  I keep thinking of that old poster Columbusite/Keith.  No thanks. 

You are NOTHING like that guy. That is the same nut was banned here and who was always on the Citydata Columbus development thread-and effectively killed it, right? Just because you have some high expectations does not put you anywhere near being like that obsessed psycho. I for one usually agree with most of what you post. There is nothing wrong with having high expectations, and being let down when things get watered down...it does seem like it happens to Cbus developments alot. But progress is slowly being made, and there is no reason to not post because you sometimes are an "outlier" on here. JMHO.

 

We know there is a "good enough for Cbus" or "better than nothing" habit with Cbus and development, transit, etc. I don't know why it is that way...same way I don't know why the city has the inferiority complex/defensiveness it can have...but I know the way it is- it has been that way forever-it was the same way even back in the 80's. I don't know when or if that will end. But it is no reason to give up. And this is not an attack on any of the mostly very good posters on this Columbus development boards here.

 

*I just noticed there is a Columbusite commenting on the 15 Cherry street 4 story renovation. I don't think that is the same guy. And why did you not back me up on wanting something more for that prime corner of downtown in the thread here!!!???  lol.  Another prime location for both height and density(like the Long and High missed opportunity which we both know was such a waste).

 

*And you are right about Aaron Renn as well. He is way too influenced by his conservatism and that is not his only bias. Notice how he never really addresses the direct questions about migration statistics but just does the strawman "booster bro" stuff? That is his way-don't dare challenge him. Good thing he basically took down his blog-he could never really handle any criticism.  Sorry off topic here but oh well.

Edited September 26, 20195 yr by Toddguy

1 hour ago, jonoh81 said:

 

Nothing. Everything is perfect and I was totally wrong for questioning it.  High fives all around.

This is why people are firing back at you a bit.  You aren't having a reasonable conversation about it.  You're just responding to anybody that says "hmm I kinda like it" with "This project is horrible and you should also be disappointed!  Columbus is doomed and I'm thinking about leaving!"  rather than just saying "hmm that's a valid opinion, but I really wish the design would have been X."  So what is your X, specifically?

3 hours ago, TH3BUDDHA said:

This is why people are firing back at you a bit.  You aren't having a reasonable conversation about it.  You're just responding to anybody that says "hmm I kinda like it" with "This project is horrible and you should also be disappointed!  Columbus is doomed and I'm thinking about leaving!"  rather than just saying "hmm that's a valid opinion, but I really wish the design would have been X."  So what is your X, specifically?

 

I gave specific reasons why I'm not in love with it.  The design is pedestrian and looks far too much like Hilton 1.0, 2.0 and everything in the AD.  It's a supersized brick box, wholly unoriginal and safe.  The height reduction never should've happened and the square footage increase doesn't really make up for it IMO- why couldn't both have happened?  It's more disappointing because they promised it wouldn't happen.  Having so much of the project be offices won't activate the area for a longer part of the day as much as if that space was used for more residences.  The project should've also included making surrounding streets pedestrian only as the city talked about, but the car is still king even here. 

Columbus isn't doomed, I just think too many people are comfortable with the status quo and accepting whatever they get in terms of development.  I think we're so used to being disappointed that we'll take anything perceived as better.  NMT is undoubtedly better than most projects the city gets, I just don't think it's good enough to overlook the rest.  If anything, I think a big, skyline changing building should get even more scrutiny.

48 minutes ago, jonoh81 said:

 

I gave specific reasons why I'm not in love with it.  The design is pedestrian and looks far too much like Hilton 1.0, 2.0 and everything in the AD.  It's a supersized brick box, wholly unoriginal and safe.  The height reduction never should've happened and the square footage increase doesn't really make up for it IMO- why couldn't both have happened?  It's more disappointing because they promised it wouldn't happen.  Having so much of the project be offices won't activate the area for a longer part of the day as much as if that space was used for more residences.  The project should've also included making surrounding streets pedestrian only as the city talked about, but the car is still king even here. 

Columbus isn't doomed, I just think too many people are comfortable with the status quo and accepting whatever they get in terms of development.  I think we're so used to being disappointed that we'll take anything perceived as better.  NMT is undoubtedly better than most projects the city gets, I just don't think it's good enough to overlook the rest.  If anything, I think a big, skyline changing building should get even more scrutiny.

Were you happy with the original design?  I preferred that design as well and I definitely agree that I'm not sure what the point of having the contest was if the final design looks nothing at all like the winning design.

Just in case those who do not like this project don't realize:  projects get changed/adjusted/watered down/height reduction, etc. in every city.  Columbus isn't the only place in the world this happens.  Please act like you've been somewhere else and seen what happens there as well.  The hand wringing is a bit dramatic. 

Edited September 29, 20195 yr by jeremyck01

On 9/26/2019 at 6:55 PM, TH3BUDDHA said:

Were you happy with the original design?  I preferred that design as well and I definitely agree that I'm not sure what the point of having the contest was if the final design looks nothing at all like the winning design.

 

They did not have a design contest.

 

They issued a development RFP. The city was evaluating the scale and impact (including financial) of the project, not just its design. 

17 hours ago, jeremyck01 said:

Just in case those who do not like this project don't realize:  projects get changed/adjusted/watered down/height reduction, etc. in every city.  Columbus isn't the only place in the world this happens.  Please act like you've been somewhere else and seen what happens there as well.  The hand wringing is a bit dramatic. 

 

God forbid people care about what gets built.  

Morning everyone, hoping to kick off everyones morning well with this bit of news... Soil sampling is happening at the Market!

Enjoy.

 

 

Edited October 30, 20195 yr by DevolsDance