19 hours ago, ucgrady said:

I don't think Pendleton ever saw quite the vacancy that OTR did, speaking anecdotally some of this is because of the Pendleton Art Center drawing an early first wave of new residents when it opened in 1991, especially as Mt. Adams became more expensive many of the artistic class moved down the hill to the Pendleton.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, maybe I can help. When properties go vacant. Even for months, the windows get broke immediatly, doors come off plumbing fixtures disappear, trash mounts up and it is painfully apparent that they are vacant. And, they stay that way until they are renovated. Historic has renovated hundreds of them in OTR and none in Pendleton despite owning a number of units.

 

Take a walk through Pendleton. I think I know every building. 70% of the units have not been renovated by anyone other than Tom Denhart in the last 70 years, except for the recent conversion to market rate lux. And, if you find one that shows the signs of vacancy from before the surge to market rate lux, please post up a photo.

 

I can tell you that when Model and the church people took over Denharts Pendleton buildings they were occupied. The Franscians had people in there for free and Model had Project Based Section 8 where they could put in anyone they wanted and they would only pay $25 a month. The buildings that did not qualify had rents in the $200-300 range.

 

As far as Verdin's Art Center is concerned, I don't know a single artist that moved into Pendleton to be near the Art Center other than the bootleg lofts that sprang up inside until they got some overnight rules in place. I say this because we did have a studio in Pendleton for a little while. I think I knew everyone in there in the 90's even though the wife was in Gallery 99 in Mt. Adams in the 90's.

Edited February 26, 20214 yr by 1400 Sycamore

Possible sycamore st. expansion for the development being proposed for supportive housing by Platte thay involves 127-129, 131 and 141 Goethe st. The expansion lot is currently vacant and is a prime location. 

4 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

Possible sycamore st. expansion for the development being proposed for supportive housing by Platte thay involves 127-129, 131 and 141 Goethe st. The expansion lot is currently vacant and is a prime location. 

@Ucgrad2015- I was confused by the rendering you posted because I've seen several presentations from Platte and City Gospel Mission on this project, and I never heard them talk about this Liberty/Sycamore site, so it confused me. You should clarify that this is *your* proposal for that lot at the corner of Liberty/Sycamore. The Planning Commission Packet for March 5th is available here: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/mar-5-2021-packet/

 

The City Gospel Mission project begins on page 187. On Page 268, they have a slide talking about how they evaluated alternate sites.

 

 

Edited February 26, 20214 yr by jwulsin

31 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

@Ucgrad2015- I was confused by the rendering you posted because I've seen several presentations from Platte and City Gospel Mission on this project, and I never heard them talk about this Liberty/Sycamore site, so it confused me. You should clarify that this is *your* proposal for that lot at the corner of Liberty/Sycamore. The Planning Commission Packet for March 5th is available here: https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/planning/about-city-planning/city-planning-commission/mar-5-2021-packet/

 

The City Gospel Mission project begins on page 187. On Page 268, they have a slide talking about how they evaluated alternate sites.

 

 

Well it’s not my proposal. It’s a proposal. 

11 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

Well it’s not my proposal. It’s a proposal. 

Ok. Fair enough, but should still be clarified that the "proposal" is not what City Gospel Mission and Platte are actually proposing to build. 

This isn't OTR-specific, but I'm not sure if there's a better thread to post this. Moderators, feel free to move if there's a more appropriate thread. 

 

Interesting news that Model Group, "for the first time in its history", has decided to sell some of its properties (Broadway Square III in Pendleton and Trevarren Flats in Walnut Hills), so that it can use that capital to fuel their future projects in those neighborhoods. Overall, assuming the sales are successful and the new buyers are good stewards, I think it is good to increase the number of owners in any given area. Model Group owns a significant percentage of property in OTR, Pendleton, and Walnut Hills. They've shown a good record of redeveloping vacant historic buildings, so I think it's great if they can use this capital to support the kinds of projects that few other developers are able to make succeed. 

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/03/17/otr-developer-selling-properties-to-fund.html

On 2/24/2021 at 1:06 PM, DEPACincy said:

 

that all cratered after the riots in 2001.

 

This is not accurate.  Everything was still in business for another 18-24 months.  I took a roll of film (yes...film) photographs at Bar Cincinnati in December of 2002 and the place was completely packed along with Have A Nice Day Cafe next door and the rest of the whole Main St. strip.  I can't dare post the photos as proof or I'll get banned for another month for "off-topic" posts by our trigger-happy moderators.  The reason why the bars left Main St. was due to leasing issues, not because of the so-called riot.  The "riot" was not a big deal - nobody died.  Over 50 people were killed in the 1992 Los Angeles riot, by comparison. 

 

At one point absolutely everything left with the exception of Mr. Pitiful's.  Neon's was the first bar to re-open after the 2005-09 nuclear winter, but it was under new ownership, and the neon signs moved to Terry's Turf Club. Michael Redmond, the majority owner of the second incarnation of Neon's, used to post here on Urban Ohio before he opened the bar, as did minority owner John Back.  The two reopened the bar with $15,000 in cash between them and probably made a yachtload of money.  They gave up on the bar when their 5-year lease ended due to a squabble with the property owner over water damage that she expected them to repair even though it was her fault for not cleaning the gutters in the years when the property was vacant. 

 

Moderators: was this post "off-topic"? 

The 2001 riots were not even a blip on the screen for residential development. The bar people may have stayed away for a while, and everyone asked if the rabble was at the door, but many of the the most enduring conversions occurred in the early 2000's. Take for example Crawford Lofts which was one of the most successful condo conversions of the era which occured in 2002. Olson started Urban Legacy right about then.. 2002 or 2003 for the series that includes vast properties without a missed beat as far as it seemed to me.

Lets not forget when the diner reopened as an upscale diner with live dj's and waygu sliders in maybe 2006?  Not remembering the name at all sadly.

11 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

I can't dare post the photos as proof or I'll get banned for another month for "off-topic" posts by our trigger-happy moderators.

 

11 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Moderators: was this post "off-topic"?

Hope you got that out of your system. Put it behind you and look forward, ie. don’t let it happen again. 

11 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

This is not accurate.  Everything was still in business for another 18-24 months.  I took a roll of film (yes...film) photographs at Bar Cincinnati in December of 2002 and the place was completely packed along with Have A Nice Day Cafe next door and the rest of the whole Main St. strip.  I can't dare post the photos as proof or I'll get banned for another month for "off-topic" posts by our trigger-happy moderators.  The reason why the bars left Main St. was due to leasing issues, not because of the so-called riot.  The "riot" was not a big deal - nobody died.  Over 50 people were killed in the 1992 Los Angeles riot, by comparison. 

 

I don't think it's reasonable to believe that every bar in OTR had "leasing issues" at the same time and up and closed. Yes, they stuck around for awhile after the riots, but their business suffered big time and that led to a lot of closings. 

 

And I'm not saying the riots (or unrest or whatever you wanna call it) were very bad (certainly not LA riot bad). But the media played it up and a lot of the suburbanites around the region were afraid to go down to OTR for several years afterward. That was painful for businesses.

Cincinnati suburbanites latch on to anything that goes on in the city and turn it into some huge boogeyman so something like the medium-scale 2001 riots is 9/11 to them.

2 hours ago, Traveler Joe said:

Lets not forget when the diner reopened as an upscale diner with live dj's and waygu sliders in maybe 2006?  Not remembering the name at all sadly.

 

Wasn't it Vynl or something dumb like that?

2 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

Cincinnati suburbanites latch on to anything that goes on in the city and turn it into some huge boogeyman so something like the medium-scale 2001 riots is 9/11 to them.

 

I remember a year-end story on NPR in 2001 that talked about how Cincinnati was the only city besides NYC that had a 9/11-sized tragedy. Um, nobody dying versus 3,000.  Like $1 million in property damage versus billions.  

 

I wasn't living in the city at the time so I didn't see anything myself.  But I've now had 20 years to hear spectacular anecdotes from the "riot" and still haven't heard a single person share anything noteworthy.  I remember one person saying that they locked themselves in The Warehouse at 1313 Vine because there was rioting outside, but that's basically it.  

 

The really noteworthy thing to come out of the whole thing was the way Charlie Luken threw Cranley under the bus.  Everyone, especially Peter Bronson, endlessly blamed Cranley for his (mis)handling of the city council meeting that got out of hand and spilled out into the streets.  That memory faded from the public consciousness in the 2010s when the big money lined up behind Cranley's mayoral campaign.  If you want to read a spectacular Cranley anecdote - look up how he got on MTV but then an opponent got the airing of the show delayed until after election day.  

 

The riot also spurred the insane rise of Chris Smitherman, who was a leftist agitator until about 2008, when he was no doubt courted by the country clubbers and became...a Republican in all but name.  He went from 700WLW's boogeyman to...having his own show.  

 

 

1 hour ago, ColDayMan said:

 

Wasn't it Vynl or something dumb like that?

 

Yes.  In the 90s it was simply The Diner or Sycamore.  I remember going there with my grandparents on a Friday night in 1994 or 1995 and them becoming mildly upset because the waitress had a nose ring and tattoos on her arm.  

 

I can't overemphasize how hopping OTR's Main/Sycamore were back then but how things devolved into ruin and total chaos 800 feet west.  

OMG a nose ring!?!

38 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

But I've now had 20 years to hear spectacular anecdotes from the "riot" and still haven't heard a single person share anything noteworthy.  I remember one person saying that they locked themselves in The Warehouse at 1313 Vine because there was rioting outside, but that's basically it.  

 

I'm sure you have engaged everyone involved...

 

 

The worst anecdote that I've heard is from a mother with a sick child who was at Children's hospital during the events. Her son needed emergency surgery, and the hospital was unable to do any surgery because service workers were unable to safely travel to the hospital for cleaning and sterilization. I believe Metro service was impacted? The surgery was delayed several days, then they ultimately care flighted the child to Dayton where he passed away before the surgery could be performed.

 

We can downplay the events or add hyperbole, but the events of 2001 had impacts, positive and negative. To see them only through ones viewpoint on either extreme of reality misses something.

I wasn't in Cincy in 2001, but weren't people in cars assaulted at red lights?

 

1 hour ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

I remember a year-end story on NPR in 2001 that talked about how Cincinnati was the only city besides NYC that had a 9/11-sized tragedy. Um, nobody dying versus 3,000.  Like $1 million in property damage versus billions.  

 

I wasn't living in the city at the time so I didn't see anything myself.  But I've now had 20 years to hear spectacular anecdotes from the "riot" and still haven't heard a single person share anything noteworthy.  I remember one person saying that they locked themselves in The Warehouse at 1313 Vine because there was rioting outside, but that's basically it.  

Yes.  In the 90s it was simply The Diner or Sycamore.  I remember going there with my grandparents on a Friday night in 1994 or 1995 and them becoming mildly upset because the waitress had a nose ring and tattoos on her arm.  

 

I can't overemphasize how hopping OTR's Main/Sycamore were back then but how things devolved into ruin and total chaos 800 feet west.  

I was working downtown at the time. To a certain extent Jake you are right. There was not much going on in the downtown area at the time. From my office, we saw a few tables get flipped by a dozen teenagers on Ftn Square but not much else. Most of the real damage was confined to OTR and much of it was in the Liberty area and and West of Vine.  

Main street was suffering before the riots but it was not publicized. Remember, we were in the middle of the tech bubble burst at that time and Main Street was the initial corridor of the emerging internet and tech companies. Even before the riots, many of them were being acquired and moved, or were shedding employees in that area that put the emerging bar district at a distinct disadvantage. It really did not have the critical mass to overcome it, plus you had the perception of the riots which hurt it even more.  Also, some of those clubs like Bar and Have a Nice Day were concept bars that ran their course. They were national/regional chains and lost their appeal around the same time too. Main Street was going to fall apart regardless of the riots. 

22 hours ago, Yves Behar said:

I wasn't in Cincy in 2001, but weren't people in cars assaulted at red lights?

 

It certainly wasn't the LA riots, but people were assaulted and buildings damaged. I've lived in OTR since 1999, and that day I was driving back from my job in Silverton. I had large rocks/bricks thrown at me at two different intersections (Walnut/15th and Main/14th), luckily their aim was bad and missed the glass. There were a couple of assaults of people who were pulled out of their cars. I had to cut down a couple alleys to not get caught in the crowds.

On 3/18/2021 at 10:56 AM, ColDayMan said:

 

Wasn't it Vynl or something dumb like that?

 

Yes! Thank you for that.

2016 Vine Street burned last night. The roof collapsed and I think most of the floors are largely gone. I wouldn't be surprised if the little building to the south would be demolished, too. The exterior brick still looks fantastic, though.

 

 

57 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

2016 Vine Street

Ugh. This sucks. Along with several others in the triangle bound by Vine, Mulberry, and E Clifton, that property was bought in 2019 by "Vine Street Legends VNB LLC" that seems to be affiliated with "Management and Beyond" at 24 E University (in Corryville). I stopped by their office last summer because I had noticed a lot of their properties had trash building up, and I wanted to see if they needed help maintaining them (in other words, I was trying to guilt trip them into doing a better job as property owners). I left my name and number with one of the office managers, but never heard back. Since I never heard back, in September I filed a complaint (SR20073217) that 2016 Vine was open to trespassers. As recently as March 12th, the City issued a Civil Citation (SR20018259) against the property for being vacant and open to intruders. I hope the City pushes hard since this is a clear case of owner negligence. I've included a couple of photos from September 2020, showing how poorly maintained the property was, especially in the rear.

 

Here's the full list of the properties owned by that LLC.

• 29 Peete
• 31 Peete
• 33 Peete
• 2010 Vine
• 2012 Vine
• 2014 Vine
• 2016 Vine
• 2022 Vine
• 21 Mulberry

 

 

 

They are currently taking down what's left of 2016 Vine Street. They have an excavator taking down the structure from the Peete Street side.

Liberty and Elm was approved by the Historic conservation board (barely). Is this the final approval before construction can start or do we have five other approvals needed?

It still baffles me why north of liberty is still so slow to develop.

 

There is a massive housing boom. Your telling me there are not enough wealthy developers in the greater Cincinnati area to buy rows of the available vacant buildings and rehab into luxury condos?

 

North of liberty has great amenities to Findlay market, UC campus, downtown, CFC stadium and everything downtown has to offer yet it still remains a safe haven for vacancies and crime and violence.

 

Don’t get it unless there is a huge mental block between crossing that line between south and north of liberty? 

I mean there is a crazy amount of stuff under construction north of liberty currently.  Also you can't just wave a magic wand and have decent construction workers appear.  There is a fairly decent labor shortage in the construction labor marketer currently.

3CDC condo project marks beginning of expansion for minority-owned firm

 

Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. and Jostin Construction Inc. have had a working relationship for more than 10 years. But the two are wrapping up a project that saw Jostin Construction, a minority-owned company, take a whole new role.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/03/22/3cdc-condo-project-marks-beginning-of-expansion.html

 

Controversial Liberty and Elm project gets key approval

 

The developer of a massive mixed-use development at Liberty and Elm streets near Findlay Market in Over-the-Rhine got approval to build two new buildings at the site from the city’s Historic Conservation Board on Monday. 

 

Opposition to the Freeport Row project continued from Over-the-Rhine stakeholders, who previously blasted the lead developer, Kean Development, because they felt it does not have enough affordable housing. On Monday, they said, contrary to the city staff report, the two new buildings are far too tall to be built in the Over-the-Rhine Historic District. 

 

The city staff recommended approval of the two new buildings, a structure at 1621 Logan St. that will replace the current Boys and Girls Club building and front Central Parkway and Logan Street, and a five-story structure at 1617 Elm St. that will front Liberty and Elm streets. The building at 1621 Logan will be six stories on the Central Parkway side and seven stories on Logan because of the elevation change between Central Parkway and Logan, according to the staff report. The top two stories fronting Central Parkway are set back away from the street.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/03/22/controversial-liberty-and-elm-project-gets-key-app.html

 

It's ridiculous how many dumb committees these projects have to go through before they can start. 

Who else needs to approve it at this point?

Perhaps a little late, but so long, Rosemary.

On 3/23/2021 at 9:05 AM, Cincy513 said:

It's ridiculous how many dumb committees these projects have to go through before they can start. 

Three is too many? Planning Commission, Historic Conservation, City Council

 

And most projects do not have to go through Historic Conservation so its just two.

21 minutes ago, brian korte said:

Three is too many? Planning Commission, Historic Conservation, City Council

 

And most projects do not have to go through Historic Conservation so its just two.

Yes that is too many.  All these committees do most of the time is ridiculously over critique the project and make them do multiple revisions.  It shouldn't take a year for a project to get approved, especially in a city where not that much development is happening.  

4 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Yes that is too many.  All these committees do most of the time is ridiculously over critique the project and make them do multiple revisions.  It shouldn't take a year for a project to get approved, especially in a city where not that much development is happening.  

Most projects don't get delayed this much. This is a pretty rare example.

 

16 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

Yes that is too many.  All these committees do most of the time is ridiculously over critique the project and make them do multiple revisions.  It shouldn't take a year for a project to get approved, especially in a city where not that much development is happening.  

 

Just today, via the Enquirer:

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2021/03/24/mayor-cranley-campaign-how-much-did-cincinnati-developers-give-him/4553686001/

 

A form based code or even revisions to the existing code could allow for larger, modern construction projects like this one to proceed without needing months of committee hearings and council votes - and, apparently, without needing to pay politicians tens of thousands of dollars.

Edited March 24, 20214 yr by Ram23

2 hours ago, Ram23 said:

 

 

Just today, via the Enquirer:

 

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2021/03/24/mayor-cranley-campaign-how-much-did-cincinnati-developers-give-him/4553686001/

 

A form based code or even revisions to the existing code could allow for larger, modern construction projects like this one to proceed without needing months of committee hearings and council votes - and, apparently, without needing to pay politicians tens of thousands of dollars.

On that note, Cranley hates form-based code and seemingly killed any more action on them when he took office.

9 hours ago, Ram23 said:

A form based code

I would not conflate form-based code with immunity from corruption. Like any building code, there always will be mechanisms for appealing exemptions, and any appeals process is inherently a political process which could - theoretically - be corrupted. I'm not sure there is actually much corruption involved in appeals to the code currently, and I'm not sure that a form-base code would necessarily improve (or worsen) the potential for corruption.

 

To the extent there is corruption, it's more likely from economic incentive packages that the City chooses to issue (or withhold) and the building code doesn't really have much impact on how those deals are put together.

 

 

Like most inequality in bureaucracy, the bigger one is, the less one has to take risks. If a billion dollar multi national company is promoting something, it doesn't take a genius politician (including the elected judiciary) to want to be on their side of the table. But when Joe Schmo is trying to cut the same corner, he may have to put his money up front in the form of contributions to the right pacs. Sorry to say it, but it is just the way it works.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/03/25/findlay-market-garage.html
 

Location of second garage has been release. I assumed this was going to be the location. It does say it will stretch over two blocks with the other section bisected by Logan street. I’m assuming that is the other parking lot right across from the Sam Adams taproom? I remember at one point there was a proposal for some apartments there but assumed that had fallen through since there hasn’t been any news.

Model group has rights to 200 spaces in the garage! Only 170 dedicated to FCC.

 

Model also has the option to purchase the air rights atop the garage in the sale.Probably build a tower on top of it.200 parking spaces is what 125 units or so my guess.

38 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2021/03/25/findlay-market-garage.html
 

Location of second garage has been release. I assumed this was going to be the location. It does say it will stretch over two blocks with the other section bisected by Logan street. I’m assuming that is the other parking lot right across from the Sam Adams taproom? I remember at one point there was a proposal for some apartments there but assumed that had fallen through since there hasn’t been any news.

"Documents filed by the county indicate the garage will stretch over two different blocks that currently are bisected by Logan Street, a portion of which will need to be vacated by the city of Cincinnati."

 

Those two lots are catty corner from each other so I'm not sure how they'd make that work.  It would almost have to be two garages, unless it will go underground.  Either way getting more parking for this area and some new street level retail in place of surface lot(s) is a big upgrade. 

9 minutes ago, ucnum1 said:

Model also has the option to purchase the air rights atop the garage in the sale.Probably build a tower on top of it.200 parking spaces is what 125 units or so my guess.

They only have the option if they build the garage that way. No idea how much it would cost, but they really need to do this. 

 

"At this point, the county does not plan to build the garage in a way that will support an overbuild, meaning a structure on top of it. But if that changes, Model has the right to buy the air rights for construction above the garage at a negotiated price."

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think they should put the the garage underground and keep Logan Street open. Building an above ground garage in the proposed location will totally cut off sunlight to existing buildings to the north on Logan Street.  Above ground space in Over the Rhine should be for people and buildings. The street and sidewalk interface in Over the Rhine is what people are attracted to and blocking off Logan would be taking some of that away for good. We only have one Findlay Market and one chance at this so I hope we don’t ruin it with mediocre design and mediocre creativity and mediocre thinking 

38 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

I think they should put the the garage underground and keep Logan Street open. Building an above ground garage in the proposed location will totally cut off sunlight to existing buildings to the north on Logan Street.  Above ground space in Over the Rhine should be for people and buildings. The street and sidewalk interface in Over the Rhine is what people are attracted to and blocking off Logan would be taking some of that away for good. We only have one Findlay Market and one chance at this so I hope we don’t ruin it with mediocre design and mediocre creativity and mediocre thinking 

Having a garage face Central also sucks. The current redesign of Central south of Liberty is to make it more pedestrian friendly and it feels like this plan makes it harder to create a contiguous environment for the Parkway.

Has anyone seen a rendering of the proposed garage?

18 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

Those two lots are catty corner from each other so I'm not sure how they'd make that work.  It would almost have to be two garages, unless it will go underground.  Either way getting more parking for this area and some new street level retail in place of surface lot(s) is a big upgrade. 

Not kitty corner, from Central to Campbell. The one story non-contributing buildings between Logan and Campbell were already demolished and replaced with a surface lot. Google images are outdated: 

Edited March 26, 20214 yr by ucgrady

Yeah my google maps must have been out dated, that makes a lot more sense.  Hopefully that other surface lot can also get developed at some point. 

3 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

Yeah my google maps must have been out dated, that makes a lot more sense.  Hopefully that other surface lot can also get developed at some point. 

I remember at one point. Maybe 2019, there was a proposal for apartments but since then I have not heard anything. 

On 3/23/2021 at 2:35 PM, zsnyder said:

Perhaps a little late, but so long, Rosemary.

 

I typically refrain from commenting on projects I'm involved in, however, Rosemary (as far as I was made last aware) will still be visible through the first floor commercial spaces, the stairwells in the building, and in a courtyard space between the new and existing.