1 hour ago, Troeros2 said:

Yeah I don’t know..a part of me is frustrated..the other part of me realizes that blue building is one of the few remaining pre civil war buildings remaining in otr. If I remember correctly it was built around the 1830s. 
 

I hate deleting more of otr history..at the same time I hate that it makes this hotel project more difficult to move forward…I guess that’s the ultimate dilemma when it comes to developments in otr. It’s complicated. 

But I'd sacrifice it to save the other one that would be incorporated.

Is relocating the building the compromise option? Is that even possible due to its age?

1 hour ago, Largue said:

Yesterday, the Historic Conservation Board voted to deny the demolition of the 2-story building at Magnolia & Central. The demo would have made way for a new 4-story hotel adaptive re-use project that spans the block. Images below of the building that was planned for demolition and then the new design proposed for the site. 

 

Does the historic board have the final say or can it go through another way? 

The HCB's decision can be appealed by the developer.

8 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

1 hour ago, Largue said:

Yesterday, the Historic Conservation Board voted to deny the demolition of the 2-story building at Magnolia & Central. The demo would have made way for a new 4-story hotel adaptive re-use project that spans the block. Images below of the building that was planned for demolition and then the new design proposed for the site. 

 

Does the historic board have the final say or can it go through another way? 

I believe the Dennison was denied demo by the hcb but the zoning board of appeals had the final say which allowed for demo. 
 

That said the Dennison was a pure pay to play move and was a fiasco demo from the get go. 
 

The main argument for the Dennison was of structural issues..I don’t know if the same can be said for this building. 
 

 

My thoughts…just incorporate the blue building as part of the lobby and use the parking lot portion on that redevelopment block for the hotel room portion. 
 

I imagine they could squeeze a 5 story hotel room building on that parking lot…

5 minutes ago, Troeros2 said:

My thoughts…just incorporate the blue building as part of the lobby and use the parking lot portion on that redevelopment block for the hotel room portion. 

This is why height limits are stupid. The new hotel is shown with two new buildings on either side of the existing Italianate building, each three stories tall. Why can't the portion between the Pitch and the Italianate building be 5-6 stories, and the pre-civil war building be kept and rehabbed? 

 

Bad PDF editor in lieu of Photshop:

4 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

This is why height limits are stupid. The new hotel is shown with two new buildings on either side of the existing Italianate building, each three stories tall. Why can't the portion between the Pitch and the Italianate building be 5-6 stories, and the pre-civil war building be kept and rehabbed? 

 

Bad PDF editor in lieu of Photshop:

I believe the model group is planning a 5 story building for the new senior facility on Central Park way. 
 

So I think the hcb could be okay with a 5 story addition.

 

The other option is to build an appropriate addition to the pre civil war building…

 

I guess the final option would be to see if the building could be physically relocated to an existing empty lot in otr…but that could be a very expensive route. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, Troeros2 said:

My thoughts…just incorporate the blue building as part of the lobby and use the parking lot portion on that redevelopment block for the hotel room portion. 

 

I believe part of the argument for demolition was that the structural analysis report said it would require around $1.8 million in repairs just to get it to comply with the structural building code. There were also reports from the urban conservator saying it was unlikely to receive historic tax credits to financially aid this because of the many changes it had undergone that have modified the building over the years. 

For reference, this is what the building used to look like before alterations were made (note the lack of neo-Spanish details).

 

 

2 minutes ago, Largue said:

For reference, this is what the building used to look like before alterations were made (note the lack of neo-Spanish details).

 

 

yeah that’s a tough one…I mean it doesn’t look THAT altered…

 

that said, I think it’s the right move. We can’t all of a sudden green light demo of contributing buildings in otr..then what would the point be for this historic district?

 

I think that this could also send the wrong message to future developers? To expensive to fix a building? Well just apply for demo! I think that’s the wrong mindset regardless. 

The only thing that building is contributing is making that corer look like sh*t.  A 2 story building on one of the few major roads in OTR is such a waste. 

3 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

The only thing that building is contributing is making that corer look like sh*t.  A 2 story building on one of the few major roads in OTR is such a waste. 

It was built before the civil war and was one of the original canal buildings when otr still had canals on Central Park way. 
 

the building is almost 200 years old…if we use the deciding factor of how attractive a building looks than half of otr remaining stock should be demolished. 
 

I understand the frustration…but at the same time we shouldn’t be advocates for demolition of contributing buildings for a historic district that’s already lost 50 percent of its original historic stock. 
 

Otr can’t afford to lose any more of its historic buildings.

16 minutes ago, Troeros2 said:

I think that this could also send the wrong message to future developers? To expensive to fix a building? Well just apply for demo! I think that’s the wrong mindset regardless.

 

Well the documents submitted to HCB had Proforma analysis with multiple scenarios showing that even in the unlikely event of them being awarded the state's 20% historic tax credit, there was still no positive return on investment for the property if the building in question was to remain. I am typically a staunch opponent of demolishing historic buildings (for many of the reasons you've mentioned). But if the math doesn't work and the building has been altered beyond recognition, I'm not sure what exactly is being "saved" by stonewalling the development... 

3 minutes ago, Largue said:

 

Well the documents submitted to HCB had Proforma analysis with multiple scenarios showing that even in the unlikely event of them being awarded the state's 20% historic tax credit, there was still no positive return on investment for the property if the building in question was to remain. I am typically a staunch opponent of demolishing historic buildings (for many of the reasons you've mentioned). But if the math doesn't work and the building has been altered beyond recognition, I'm not sure what exactly is being "saved" by stonewalling the development... 

 

Well I’m not sure what the developer can do in that case. Obviously they can appeal but my guess it would probably be denied. 
 

I mean fcc could technically lease them the land adjacent to their stadium for this hotel project…Just depends how dead set this developer is on getting a hotel done. 

So we're just going to let an abandoned building continue to rot and waste prime real estate because it's too old to be demo'd?  That seems extremely stupid.  If you can't turn it into something useful then tear it down and build something new.  Then the land actually would contribute to the neighborhood. 

13 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

So we're just going to let an abandoned building continue to rot and waste prime real estate because it's too old to be demo'd?  That seems extremely stupid.  If you can't turn it into something useful then tear it down and build something new.  Then the land actually would contribute to the neighborhood. 

I mean that’s not technically true..the port authority or any other city agency could apply for tax credits and grants to bring the building back to building code and use it for affordable housing. 
 

 

2 hours ago, Troeros2 said:

I mean that’s not technically true..the port authority or any other city agency could apply for tax credits and grants to bring the building back to building code and use it for affordable housing. 
 

 

But they don't own it.

3 hours ago, Troeros2 said:

I mean that’s not technically true..the port authority or any other city agency could apply for tax credits and grants to bring the building back to building code and use it for affordable housing. 

 

For the price of rehabbing this building, you could build a new building with 5 times as many affordable housing units on another lot somewhere else. Just because it's "possible" doesn't mean it's realistic or worth the money.

 

I would compare this building to the one that was at the corner of Eighth & Main that got demolished for The Blonde. Yes, the old building was historic, but it was not realistic to reuse it. It was not well maintained over the years and, because it was originally built as a warehouse with low ceiling heights, it could not be converted to another use (like apartments or office space) unless a developer wanted to do a facadectomy and demolish and rebuild the entire interior of the building.

On 3/26/2021 at 10:00 AM, Miami-Erie said:

Has anyone seen a rendering of the proposed garage?

Hamilton County presented a status report tonight on the county garage that is being built at Findlay Market as part of the FCC deal. 

 

Preferred design includes 5 stories and 472 spaces (currently 91 on existing surface lots) along with 19,000 SF of ground floor retail along Central Parkway and Elder. Height is roughly equal to Globe Building to east and old Parkway Towers (now Talbert House) to north. Logan will be closed, with an a "Logan Connector" turning west to Central Parkway at the north side of the garage. Garage access will be from the north side, either this connector or Logan Street. Parking plates will be sloped. Sidewalks on Elder will be bumped out to remove handful of parking spots for wider sidewalks. Large space for mural where Logan is(was) on Elder. Cost is around $30,600 per space. 
 

Options studied including leaving Logan open as a tunnel, open with "bridges" at upper levels, and flat floors with an exterior ramp. All lowered the number of parking spaces and significantly increased cost.

 

Images are massing only, now that they have a design strategy they will work on actual design. Forget to grab photos of floor plan but it's pretty basic.

 

Added an image showing the locations of the "Logan Commons" senior housing project by Urban Sites on the Findlay Market West lot and the Wilkommen II project at the SE corner of Findlay and Central Parkway. 3 huge infill projects over the next few years will dramatically change this part of the neighborhood and provide housing and needed parking. County is trying to coordinate with Urban Sites to be complete before the senior housing project kicks off so both surface lots are not offline at the same time.

Edited July 14, 20213 yr by mcmicken

Let’s get this done and then redevelop the remaining Findlay Market surface lots!

1 hour ago, taestell said:

Let’s get this done and then redevelop the remaining Findlay Market surface lots!

Schedule presented was design by end of 2021, bid and construction 2022, opening by March 2023.

That is a pretty substantial amount of development for that stretch of north of liberty.

 

Makes me wonder if this will

make the direct surface lots

by findlay market easier to develop now. 

I'm curious what's going on with the back of Madtree but it looks like they are removing the one wall brick by brick to rebuild it. The old Kaze courtyard has been pretty much completely ripped up but the trees are still there (hopefully the roots survive). The raised crosswalk is being prepared right in front of Madtree's front door as well. Can't wait for this space, hopefully its open by for some good fall weather and not going into winter. 

 

that building on central parkway... i don't think will Howie Taft studied law there, or Harriet beecher Stowe didn't use it to store unsold books and lindner never milked a cow there. tear it down and build a big shiny glass monolith on those lots and bring cincy into the 20th century. 

8 hours ago, taestell said:

Let’s get this done and then redevelop the remaining Findlay Market surface lots!

would be amazing to see the market expand into the existing Market-adjacent lots.

 

1 hour ago, zsnyder said:

would be amazing to see the market expand into the existing Market-adjacent lots.

 

I would love to see a larger more traditional enclosed market like the the North Market in Columbus with multiple vendor floors and underground parking. 

 

 

22 minutes ago, Troeros2 said:

I would love to see a larger more traditional enclosed market like the the North Market in Columbus with multiple vendor floors and underground parking. 

 

 

North Market is more a collection of food stalls than market, but yes, a more singular space...though I'd use West Side Market in Cleveland as the bar for something like that.  

That being said, I like the street vibe of Findlay more.

Edited July 15, 20213 yr by zsnyder

1 hour ago, zsnyder said:

North Market is more a collection of food stalls than market, but yes, a more singular space...though I'd use West Side Market in Cleveland as the bar for something like that.  

That being said, I like the street vibe of Findlay more.

My only issue with Findlay is how tight and narrow the inside portion of the market is. It’s especially difficult if you have a stroller. 
 

Expanding the market with a larger space with more spread out stalls would be very beneficial IMO. 

11 hours ago, zsnyder said:

North Market is more a collection of food stalls than market, but yes, a more singular space...though I'd use West Side Market in Cleveland as the bar for something like that.  

That being said, I like the street vibe of Findlay more.

I love West side market in Cleveland, and I think an interior space for stalls/food hall would be great especially for the winter. Nearly all the seating at Findlay is outdoors at either end of the market, and in the winter it becomes much less welcoming and more difficult to grab food, lunch, wine tasting etc.  

Would there be enough demand to fill out an entire new building with food and goods stalls? There's still some empty store fronts around Findlay market.

 

Also, I think that they'd need to put some infill parking garage or really encourage parking elsewhere in OTR and ride the streetcar over. Parking near Findlay Market is already a bit rough.

9 minutes ago, RealAdamP said:

Would there be enough demand to fill out an entire new building with food and goods stalls? There's still some empty store fronts around Findlay market.

 

Also, I think that they'd need to put some infill parking garage or really encourage parking elsewhere in OTR and ride the streetcar over. Parking near Findlay Market is already a bit rough.

I think the more built out north of liberty gets and more residential gets rehabbed/new construction then the demand will increase.

 

I think the elm and liberty project will be a huge boost to Findlay market when it comes to more consistent week day foot traffic. 

 

In my mind, a mixed use development of underground parking on that lot with -maybe - a 2 story food stall expansion - and 3 story or residential above could be an awesome catalyst for the market and kind of bring some new excitement for Findlay market that has been kind of missing for a while now. 
 

 

5 minutes ago, Troeros2 said:

I think the more built out north of liberty gets and more residential gets rehabbed/new construction then the demand will increase.

 

I think the elm and liberty project will be a huge boost to Findlay market when it comes to more consistent week day foot traffic. 

 

In my mind, a mixed use development of underground parking on that lot with -maybe - a 2 story food stall expansion - and 3 story or residential above could be an awesome catalyst for the market and kind of bring some new excitement for Findlay market that has been kind of missing for a while now. 
 

 

 

Multi-story food hall/stall area would be nice, and more residential is always welcome.

 

Would anyone be able to do underground parking in that area? I'd imagine you'd run into a lot of surprises below the surface and structural problems with the nearby buildings. It seems the only places with underground parking north of central parkway are parks.

2 hours ago, RealAdamP said:

 

Multi-story food hall/stall area would be nice, and more residential is always welcome.

 

Would anyone be able to do underground parking in that area? I'd imagine you'd run into a lot of surprises below the surface and structural problems with the nearby buildings. It seems the only places with underground parking north of central parkway are parks.

The Liberty & Elm is doing a few levels of underground parking because they discovered so much rubble back fill, that they were going to have to excavate a lot anyways, making the marginal cost of doing underground parking less of a burden. They are are also going to have a few above ground levels, so it'll be a mix of above and below ground structured parking (no surface parking). I assume other properties might be similar, if you're talking about just 1-2 levels underground. 

Findlay Market is the most successful market in Ohio as it is. The indoor/outdoor combo vibe is really cool. And the history is a part of the appeal. I don't know why we would sacrifice that to copy a market like North Market or West Side that are both cool but both fall short compared to Findlay.

I wouldn't touch the market itself or any of the storefronts. I'm talking about whatever development goes into the North lot taking the place of the farmers market shelter and all the surface parking. That space could/should continue to hold a space for farmers market but should also have more interior space or at least enclosable/convertable space so that in the winter when farmer's markets aren't happening the space isn't wasted and also so people have a place to eat food that they buy from a vendor. Take Eckerlin meats (or any of the places with little to no indoor seating) or all the temporary vendors who currently setup only on the weekends in the summer like the mofongo place, the Caribbean bbq place etc. In the winter having a place to take that to eat would be awesome, They should have a place to go in the winter as well and not be told "well, see you next spring" come November. 

Nice article on the $10 million renovation of Logan Towers (formerly known as Parkway Towers), a joint effort by Talbert House and Model Group: https://www.wcpo.com/news/our-community/renovated-affordable-housing-high-rise-in-over-the-rhine-to-reopen-as-logan-towers

 

 

35 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I wouldn't touch the market itself or any of the storefronts. I'm talking about whatever development goes into the North lot taking the place of the farmers market shelter and all the surface parking. That space could/should continue to hold a space for farmers market but should also have more interior space or at least enclosable/convertable space so that in the winter when farmer's markets aren't happening the space isn't wasted and also so people have a place to eat food that they buy from a vendor. Take Eckerlin meats (or any of the places with little to no indoor seating) or all the temporary vendors who currently setup only on the weekends in the summer like the mofongo place, the Caribbean bbq place etc. In the winter having a place to take that to eat would be awesome, They should have a place to go in the winter as well and not be told "well, see you next spring" come November. 

Nailed it on the head. 
 

Keep Findlay markets uniqueness but add on to its strengths and give the vendors more space to operate our of.

 

I imagine winter is the slowest month at Findlay and some of these vendors are already running on razor thin margins so 3-4 bad months could lead them to abandon their business. 
 

Building an enclosed food hall of sorts for the community and Findlay market vendors to use could be such a pivotal move for some of these businesses to stay in business longer and help add more vendors to the market.  

40 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I wouldn't touch the market itself or any of the storefronts. I'm talking about whatever development goes into the North lot taking the place of the farmers market shelter and all the surface parking. That space could/should continue to hold a space for farmers market but should also have more interior space or at least enclosable/convertable space so that in the winter when farmer's markets aren't happening the space isn't wasted and also so people have a place to eat food that they buy from a vendor. Take Eckerlin meats (or any of the places with little to no indoor seating) or all the temporary vendors who currently setup only on the weekends in the summer like the mofongo place, the Caribbean bbq place etc. In the winter having a place to take that to eat would be awesome, They should have a place to go in the winter as well and not be told "well, see you next spring" come November. 

 

Okay, I could get down with that. In Philly, they put up something at one of the parks in the winter called "The Lodge" It's basically a big heated tent with concessions and a bar. It has a very rustic feel with heat lamps and indoor fireplaces. Something like that would be cool where the farmer's market space is and the vendors can move inside for the winter. Then it can be easily dismantled in the spring. 

20 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Okay, I could get down with that. In Philly, they put up something at one of the parks in the winter called "The Lodge" It's basically a big heated tent with concessions and a bar. It has a very rustic feel with heat lamps and indoor fireplaces. Something like that would be cool where the farmer's market space is and the vendors can move inside for the winter. Then it can be easily dismantled in the spring. 

I think the goal would for it not to remain a parking lot anymore..I think it if it was a permanent fixture then that would be best IMO. 

54 minutes ago, Troeros2 said:

I think the goal would for it not to remain a parking lot anymore..I think it if it was a permanent fixture then that would be best IMO. 

 

You could have an L shaped development with apartments and retail along Findlay and Race Streets and reserve the area where the farmer's market is now as a public park that gets the tented treatment in the winter.

It looks like they are building a new street eatery for the Mercer. 

OTR Shell will discontinue running 24/7 because of the out of control crime that occurs on the property.

 

They will decrease their hours to close at 9pm and follow to close in the future when it becomes dark.

 

Owner says they installed new fencing, additional security cameras and even paid cpd for additional detailing but said the crime is not letting up and have no choice but to close before dark. 
 

The owner admitted that some of the employees are quitting now because of the reduced hours and that at some point the owner might abandon the shell entirely.

 

For so much progress otr has made, for people paying almost million plus for a luxury condo just a few blocks away, for how much 3cdc tries to lure suburbanites to visit otr, it’s absolute mind boggling that residents and visitors  can’t get a safe gas station to shop at. 

 

 

https://www.fox19.com/2021/07/16/otrs-only-gas-station-shortening-hours-due-safety-concerns/
 

 

Edited July 16, 20213 yr by Troeros2

Just tear it down. No reason for a gas station in the urban core. 

Or, we try out something like this in a new development.  From Paris, France:

 

One of the major reasons for all of the problems the Shell has been having is how much land the station takes up. Their parking lot is absurdly large and of course it becomes the spot where dozens of people will gather in the middle of the night. Have them subdivide the lot and sell the west side where the former carwash is sitting there unused. It is one of the worst examples of planning in the urban core. I've been to gas stations in the suburbs located on a smaller footprint. 

 

I recognize the use of having a gas station in OTR, but I'm glad the owner is finally acknowledging how much of a nuisance their property had become (probably under threat of lawsuit by the city).

I feel like a station is still required to support how many people live in the core, but to support car drivers it should be closer to the car dependent infrastructure of either I75 or I71. Either at the corner of Liberty/Reading where the check cashing place is, or on the other end of Liberty closer to 75 would make way more sense than right in the middle of the (walkable) neighborhood. A UDF next to the new Linder owned West End stadium wouldn't be the worst thing.

a UDF by TQL would be awful. I agree one at Reading/Liberty wouldn't be the worst, but there's already a Shell station on Reading a few blocks north. I don't think we need a gas station in the urban core, personally. If you've waiting so long you can't drive two miles to a gas station without running out of gas, that's on you. Not every neighborhood needs a gas station, and we certainly shouldn't be building new ones in the city.

I know 3cdc is working on giving Grant Park and Findlay Playground the Washington park/Ziegler park treatment…if the shell gets redeveloped or shuts down we will essentially lose the 3 biggest crime spots in the entire city.

 

Could be huge for otr safety going forward. 

Edited July 16, 20213 yr by Troeros2

33 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

I don't think we need a gas station in the urban core, personally. If you've waiting so long you can't drive two miles to a gas station without running out of gas, that's on you. Not every neighborhood needs a gas station, and we certainly shouldn't be building new ones in the city.

 

Yeah, I don't really see why we need a gas station in OTR at all. As a car-owning downtown resident for the past decade, I pretty much always get gas when I am out running other errands in my car — most frequently at the Newport Kroger. As far as I can tell there are no gas stations in West End, Central Business District, or Mt. Adams for that matter, and it doesn't seem to be a problem. It just doesn't seem necessary when we have gas stations in Queensgate, along Reading Road, and conveniently located at almost every strip mall/shopping center that residents of the urban core would drive to.

If the owners of the Shell can't make money on the shortened hours, I'm not going to be upset when the gas station closes and doesn't get replaced. However, it does serve a legitimate purpose in the neighborhood during the day. The vast majority of the problems here happen after dark so I think that closing at sunset will go a long way. I live pretty close to the Shell, so it will be interesting to see the effect over the next few weeks.

 

Would love to see the whole property redeveloped someday though, there are so many better uses for that huge parcel of land.