Adopt the UK rule. Loser pays attorneys fees. I don't think OTR Adopt would have even thought about it if they had been looking at a room full of $600/hr guys wasting time on their tab.

 

What are the chances this doesn’t get built at all?

On 5/14/2022 at 11:52 AM, jim uber said:

I think it's helpful to be irritated - thanks @1400 Sycamore

 

There needs to be a greater level of outrage from the OTR community, and City Council, about this sort of crap that places responsibility for community planning (essentially) in the hands of one overzealous, impossibly self-righteous activist, and his Dad who funds him.

 

I've said it before - who does Danny think will build workforce housing in meaningful amounts and repopulate OTR, if it isn't large scale developers and developments? He doesn't care.

 

It is a scandal that one NIMBY can stop the development of one project for many years.

On 5/14/2022 at 2:17 PM, jim uber said:

I would just start with shining the light of day on this whole process, which seems to have begun. OTR Adopt has a board and an operating set of bylaws, and I wonder if they are informed of these actions, or if Danny Klingler believes he is operating here on his own and doesn't need their approval. He and OTR Adopt has also had the support of the OTR foundation, and has received grants from the Haile foundation and others. And then there's always the (small) possibility that so many of us who have grown tired of participating in the OTR neighborhood council, where OTR Adopt/Danny and others find a megaphone - might rethink our participation if we knew that there were significant numbers of others.

 

I wonder how strong all of this support is, or whether it would all whither under more careful scrutiny and understanding that there are contrary opinions.

Wasn't he a poster on this site a while back?

I saw a poster up about a community meeting to discuss the current plans for Findlay playground, Grant playground and the OTR rec center... but it was yesterday. Did anyone attend and/or know what the plans are? 

6 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I saw a poster up about a community meeting to discuss the current plans for Findlay playground, Grant playground and the OTR rec center... but it was yesterday. Did anyone attend and/or know what the plans are? 

The proposal is a collaboration between CRC and 3CDC to determine how to best improve the existing Rec Center, Findlay Playround, Elm St playground, and Grant Park. The proposal, which came out of the last year+ of engagement and design studies, is to build a new rec/community center on the existing Findlay Playground. The current Rec Center would be renovated into a shared space, housing Golden Gloves, Crossroad Health Center, and Our Daily Bread. The latter two organizations would, if all goes as planned, vacate their current facilities (long term plans for those sites aren't determined yet, but 3CDC would lead the redevelopment efforts). As part of this project, there will also be improvements to Grant Park and the Elm Street playground. All in all, there are a lot of exciting elements to the plan. 

 

Some details (though they may not be totally up to date) are posted here: https://www.3cdc.org/project/findlay-community-and-recreation-center/

If you’d like to receive updates on the community engagement process, email [email protected]

 

That's very interesting, the recommendation report link is broken on 3CDC's website which is why I couldn't find what the current (or most recent) plan was for the sites, but opening up Crossroad Health Center's location would be huge and hopefully some major improvements can be made to Grant park which I think has a ton of potential as a public space. 

 

Not to start another steeple fight, but what happens to the steeple attached to the OTR Rec center if this gets renovated 😬

19 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

That's very interesting, the recommendation report link is broken on 3CDC's website which is why I couldn't find what the current (or most recent) plan was for the sites, but opening up Crossroad Health Center's location would be huge and hopefully some major improvements can be made to Grant park which I think has a ton of potential as a public space. 

 

Not to start another steeple fight, but what happens to the steeple attached to the OTR Rec center if this gets renovated 😬

That steeple is gonna stay. Fear not. 

$11 million apartment project coming to Over-the-Rhine

 

 

An Over-the-Rhine developer is planning a $10.9 million, 44-unit apartment building at the northeast corner of Dunlap and Henry streets, three blocks from Findlay Market, which will replace a vacant parking lot.

 

Over-the-Rhine Community Housing has landed $1 million in state low-income housing tax credits from the Ohio Housing Finance Agency for a project it is calling Dunlap PSH.

 

OTRCH was one of 76 projects to apply and 22 to receive funding. The apartments will be permanent supportive housing for single adults who have experienced chronic homelessness.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2022/05/19/otr-community-housing-project.html

These aren't apartments. Its really a group home for addicts. Built to a lotline footprint w/o parking. Just what OTR doesn't need. And, the parking lot is not vacant, its as busy as any in and out lot anywhere. Provides much needed parking for the businesses nearby all of whom opposed it.

Edited May 19, 20223 yr by 1400 Sycamore

1 hour ago, 1400 Sycamore said:

These aren't apartments. Its really a group home for addicts. Built to a lotline footprint w/o parking. Just what OTR doesn't need. And, the parking lot is not vacant, its as busy as any in and out lot anywhere. Provides much needed parking for the businesses nearby all of whom opposed it.

This aint it chief 

I'm thinking this is the 2000 Dunlap project. Am I mistaken?

7 hours ago, jwulsin said:

The proposal is a collaboration between CRC and 3CDC to determine how to best improve the existing Rec Center, Findlay Playround, Elm St playground, and Grant Park. The proposal, which came out of the last year+ of engagement and design studies, is to build a new rec/community center on the existing Findlay Playground. The current Rec Center would be renovated into a shared space, housing Golden Gloves, Crossroad Health Center, and Our Daily Bread. The latter two organizations would, if all goes as planned, vacate their current facilities (long term plans for those sites aren't determined yet, but 3CDC would lead the redevelopment efforts). As part of this project, there will also be improvements to Grant Park and the Elm Street playground. All in all, there are a lot of exciting elements to the plan. 

 

Some details (though they may not be totally up to date) are posted here: https://www.3cdc.org/project/findlay-community-and-recreation-center/

If you’d like to receive updates on the community engagement process, email [email protected]

 

There were 4 options for Findlay/new Rec Center and 3 for Grant. Here are a couple snapshots of the options presented. They had some massing models in the powerpoint but didn't have them printed.

 

 

1 hour ago, 1400 Sycamore said:

I'm thinking this is the 2000 Dunlap project. Am I mistaken?

This is the 2000 Dunlap project. I think he was saying that he didn't agree with you. I could be wrong though.

IMO, I hope that the turf lawn doesn't make it. If people want green, push for a roof garden. A larger more diverse rec center can be a neighborhood gathering node for a larger more diverse people

Oh. Well what I recall from the Historic Board last month was an application for 2000 Dunlap for some type of group home or an assisted living facility with on site service providers, etc.  I suppose I could be mistaken but if it is the group home, i think it will stunt market rate residential on Dunlap and Henry.

Edited May 20, 20223 yr by 1400 Sycamore

Interesting factoid: guess who is the attorney for the group home project at 2000 Dunlap? Yep, you guessed it. Sean Suder, one and the same. The developer subsidized fee group home goes forward, the privately funded OTR developments are put on permanent hold.

10 minutes ago, 1400 Sycamore said:

Interesting factoid: guess who is the attorney for the group home project at 2000 Dunlap? Yep, you guessed it. Sean Suder, one and the same. The developer subsidized fee group home goes forward, the privately funded OTR developments are put on permanent hold.

 

It's almost like they don't actually believe in any of their ridiculous arguments to put market-rate projects on hold. It is asinine that one person who opposes nearly everything can slam the door on developments they have zero standing / interest / involvement in. 

Thank you for posting these!

 

Realistically, what is the point of the green turf lawn? With Grant park 500 feet away I'm not sure what the purpose of the green space at Findlay Playground is? It certainly doesn't get much use in it's current state and without purposeful programing it will continue to not get use. It's too small for sports and if it's up on the roof any thrown/kicked balls or toys will be over the edge and gone. Is it for outdoor yoga or passive activities? If so it should go up high on a roofdeck. Is it for active play? It should stay on ground level. Is it just to look at to see nature/the color green? It should be VE'd out of the project and more street trees planted instead. 

 

All that being said, I'm excited that all the options rebuild the Vine Street streetwall though I'm surprised 3CDC isn't trying to bury parking on either of these sites to support the nearby development. Maybe that's something that's consistent across all options and therefore not shown, but underground parking accessed from the dead ends of Republic is too logical to not do IMO. 

39 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

Thank you for posting these!

 

Realistically, what is the point of the green turf lawn? With Grant park 500 feet away I'm not sure what the purpose of the green space at Findlay Playground is? It certainly doesn't get much use in it's current state and without purposeful programing it will continue to not get use. It's too small for sports and if it's up on the roof any thrown/kicked balls or toys will be over the edge and gone. Is it for outdoor yoga or passive activities? If so it should go up high on a roofdeck. Is it for active play? It should stay on ground level. Is it just to look at to see nature/the color green? It should be VE'd out of the project and more street trees planted instead. 

 

All that being said, I'm excited that all the options rebuild the Vine Street streetwall though I'm surprised 3CDC isn't trying to bury parking on either of these sites to support the nearby development. Maybe that's something that's consistent across all options and therefore not shown, but underground parking accessed from the dead ends of Republic is too logical to not do IMO. 

It looks like the black outline would be the building footprint, so the turf lawns would be at grade.

I have a feel like option A is the best option for a few reasons.

1) It's the densest option leaving more room for growth or more outdoor space. 

2) It reconnects Republic Street from what I can see, via a pedestrian path allowing for better connectivity

3) It completes the Vine Street street wall.

 

I think more outdoor space is fantastic for the folks who live around this part of the city. I go to a gym down the street and I am wondering if we would be able to access the outdoor space for outdoor workouts.

19 hours ago, 1400 Sycamore said:

These aren't apartments. Its really a group home for addicts. Built to a lotline footprint w/o parking. Just what OTR doesn't need. And, the parking lot is not vacant, its as busy as any in and out lot anywhere. Provides much needed parking for the businesses nearby all of whom opposed it.

What a gross, Nimby take. 

On 5/20/2022 at 2:36 PM, küshner said:

What a gross, Nimby take. 

Well your comment is an example of how persons on public forums often jump to conclusions without information. I'm guessing that you presuppose that I am against addiction treatment facilities near me. And, that is why you feel free to toss an insult my way, right?

 

First, its not my neighborhood. No personal stake.

 

Second, as a recovering addict with a 31 year 12 step coin in my pocket and over 10,000 12 step meetings and personal sponsoring of a lot of addicted persons under my belt, I am not against addiction treatment.

 

But, there is already a plethora of such facilities in western OTR and this location provided no available parking or delivery access for professionals, visitors or residents and will sacrifice a much needed parking lot.

 

The lot is valued at over $500,000 according to testimony at the HCB and lots twice the size nearby could be had for half as much, conserving valuable social service support resources. But, the stench of a lavish developer fee funded by public financing is in the wind and OTRCH smells the scent.

 

That is the back story.

 

Now, if you would worship this project if it was at Liberty and Elm with a one acre blacktop surface lot, two stories tall, then you are not a hypocrite.

I live nearly next door to the OTRCH Jimmy Heath house which seems to be a model for the Dunlap project (but about half the size). Folks who live there are constantly drinking and using drugs in public. This seems to be fine with OTRCH. I’ve had an adjacent property broken into by a resident; he was caught on camera and went to jail. 
 

My understanding is these are not addiction treatment facilities; they are housing for addicts who often have a variety of other problems. They wouldn’t be denied treatment options if they asked for them, but participating in them is not required for continued residency. 
 

i really couldn’t care less if someone thought me a Neanderthal Boomer for not wanting a facility like this as an immediate neighbor. Most people would agree with me if in my shoes. Once after talking about the problems with OTRCH, a senior staff member suggested that maybe I should move. So from their perspective I guess I am a type of blight on their vision. 

Magistrate rules in $80 million Liberty & Elm development

By Chris Wetterich  –  Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

May 23, 2022

 

 

An Over-the-Rhine group has no standing to challenge the city’s approval of a massive mixed-use project, Hamilton County Magistrate Anita Berding has ruled.

 

But Berding’s ruling may not be the final world, with the plaintiff in the case, nonprofit real estate firm OTR Adopt, urging Hamilton County Common Pleas Judge Lisa Allen to reject it earlier this month.

 

Kean Development’s project in the northwest corner of Liberty and Elm streets, which also includes the demolished former Boys and Girls Club site, has been ensnared in a court battle over approvals given to it by city regulators for more than a year. The $80 million project calls for 305 units, a 210-space parking garage and 11,717 square feet of retail. It includes two new buildings and the rehabilitation of four historic buildings.

 

MORE

That's good news, though I won't get too excited until I see equipment on site and digging. This project is really going to be huge for that section of OTR and really needs to move forward.

 

I really wish OTR Adopt would stay in their lane and protect existing properties instead of trying to halt new developments. Protecting the Lutheran bell tower and saving abandoned properties is noble work, but after all this chicanery why would I donate to them ever again? 

After this whole dog and pony show where they have to know they are wrong - and just wanting to use delay tactics - I have a hard time taking OTR Adopt seriously moving forward and being anything more than obstructionists. 

On 5/19/2022 at 11:11 PM, CincyIntheKnow said:

IMO, I hope that the turf lawn doesn't make it. If people want green, push for a roof garden. A larger more diverse rec center can be a neighborhood gathering node for a larger more diverse people

The green space discussion was interesting, as a lot of the feedback from the listening sessions was that stakeholders wanted safety/security which is why some of the plans pushed the green space to rooftops.

 

I'm torn on the issue, as I firsthand see the need for security. I also like the flexibility of just walking across the street to access the space and having activity at street level. I think there is an important place for a large(ish) unprogrammed green space for activities in the city. I know with my 6 year old, its great to have space to throw/kick a ball around, run around, fly kites, etc without having to dodge organized activities or landscaping. It also gives space for outdoor activations like neighborhood festivals/meetups/etc during the warmer months.

On 5/20/2022 at 10:00 AM, ucgrady said:

Thank you for posting these!

 

Realistically, what is the point of the green turf lawn? With Grant park 500 feet away I'm not sure what the purpose of the green space at Findlay Playground is? It certainly doesn't get much use in it's current state and without purposeful programing it will continue to not get use. It's too small for sports and if it's up on the roof any thrown/kicked balls or toys will be over the edge and gone. Is it for outdoor yoga or passive activities? If so it should go up high on a roofdeck. Is it for active play? It should stay on ground level. Is it just to look at to see nature/the color green? It should be VE'd out of the project and more street trees planted instead. 

 

All that being said, I'm excited that all the options rebuild the Vine Street streetwall though I'm surprised 3CDC isn't trying to bury parking on either of these sites to support the nearby development. Maybe that's something that's consistent across all options and therefore not shown, but underground parking accessed from the dead ends of Republic is too logical to not do IMO. 

No discussion of parking being included in the site.

On 5/20/2022 at 11:57 AM, Chas Wiederhold said:

I have a feel like option A is the best option for a few reasons.

1) It's the densest option leaving more room for growth or more outdoor space. 

2) It reconnects Republic Street from what I can see, via a pedestrian path allowing for better connectivity

3) It completes the Vine Street street wall.

 

I think more outdoor space is fantastic for the folks who live around this part of the city. I go to a gym down the street and I am wondering if we would be able to access the outdoor space for outdoor workouts.

Yes, on most of the plans the outdoor space would include outdoor workout areas. 

 

The design team presented it as option C or D was preferred as the natural outgrowth of options A & B. The massing models (only shown on screen, no pics I could grab) for Option A showed a 5-6 story building on Vine due to the large floor to ceiling heights required by the spaces which they indicated they thought was too high. Option B was dismissed as too sprawling and low. 

 

 

On 5/13/2022 at 10:38 PM, 1400 Sycamore said:

Yea, sorry for the delay. I checked earlier and it wasn't up yet.

 

Apparently to provide the maximum delay, OTR Adopt filed its objections yesterday at 4:53 pm, 7 minutes before the deadline. They just posted to the Clerk's website today.

 

It is a 15 page objection, and as usual, pretty skillful stuff from Attorney Suder.

 

PM me with a real email address for a copy in PDF.

There could be a problem. OTR Adopt filed its objections on 5/12/22. I could be wrong, but I an pretty sure memorandum contra are filed within 10 days after the objections. None were filed by the developer which could, possibly result in OTR Adopt's objections being sustained for failure of the developer to respond. Gotta watch these things.

 

EDIT:

 

I looked it up and I was right. the party opposing an objection to the Magistrate's decision has to file within 10 days. And, they did not file.

 

Of course, Sean Suder could have, would have, agreed to an extension of that time period if they requested it and that may be what happened. We will see. But in my World, if an extension is granted, the lawyers should put on a stipulation extending time so the Court does not do anything in the meantime. I sense a problem.

 

And, this is a great lesson for those who are likely to stumble into our system of "justice." There are many pitfalls. and the right outcome does not always prevail.

Edited May 27, 20223 yr by 1400 Sycamore

I am not a lawyer... but reading that you are making it sounds like OTR Adopt "wins" and this isnt going anywhere? 

My entire legal expertise comes from watching Better Call Saul, but it doesn't sound... good? 

There could be a stipulation extending time, and the Judge could just ignore Sean Suder's objections. Could be. But, he wrote a pretty good objection. In a million years I would not have let it pass unanswered. And, I would never extend a filing date and not tell the Court by stipulation. So, yes, it could be bad.

Lets just call it what it is Liberty and Elm is dead in the water and 3CDC better get involved to grease the proper wheels and pay off OTR adopt to shut the hell up. That corner of OTR is just sad and depressing I guess that is what OTR adopts wants in the city... Wish i could find out who is bank rolling them and expose them. 

On 5/22/2022 at 6:11 PM, jim uber said:

I live nearly next door to the OTRCH Jimmy Heath house which seems to be a model for the Dunlap project (but about half the size). Folks who live there are constantly drinking and using drugs in public. This seems to be fine with OTRCH. I’ve had an adjacent property broken into by a resident; he was caught on camera and went to jail. 

 

Honest question, what kind of drugs we talking? If they are just having a few beers or smoking a joint in front of the building I don't think that's a big deal. But if they are shooting up that's a different story.

On 5/20/2022 at 8:26 AM, wjh2 said:

 

It's almost like they don't actually believe in any of their ridiculous arguments to put market-rate projects on hold. It is asinine that one person who opposes nearly everything can slam the door on developments they have zero standing / interest / involvement in. 

 

Suder is a land use attorney. He argues for whomever is paying him.

On 5/19/2022 at 7:13 PM, 1400 Sycamore said:

These aren't apartments. Its really a group home for addicts. Built to a lotline footprint w/o parking. Just what OTR doesn't need. And, the parking lot is not vacant, its as busy as any in and out lot anywhere. Provides much needed parking for the businesses nearby all of whom opposed it.

 

1. When I do drive downtown (not often), I often park in this lot. It is NEVER full, even when the north lot at Findlay Market is at capacity. Even on FCC game days. 

 

2. OTRCH own the lot. Should they not be allowed to develop their property? 

9 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Suder is a land use attorney. He argues for whomever is paying him.

He is a big believer in renovation of old buildings and neighborhoods. He has always been.  His heart is usually in the right place.

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

He is a big believer in renovation of old buildings and neighborhoods. He has always been.  His heart is usually in the right place.

 

I agree his heart seems to be in the right place. I was referring to people who don't understand why he's fighting Elm & Liberty. Well, because that's his client. It doesn't mean he personally believes it.

2 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I agree his heart seems to be in the right place. I was referring to people who don't understand why he's fighting Elm & Liberty. Well, because that's his client. It doesn't mean he personally believes it.

Knowing him the way I do, I would like to think (and obviously do not know for sure and have not spoken with him on that matter) that he probably does not have a  problem with the project but he obviously is doing his client's interest. The man has to eat after all.  I think he believe in OTR and historic preservation and has developed strong relationships with the community and community leaders through the years and therefore, he almost has to take on such cases because he is the voice of the community on real estate issue. 

So are we basically calling Liberty and Elm dead? If this was somewhere tucked back into OTR I wouldn’t be as upset but this is such a prime corner and will really activate that section of OTR. I’d hate for it to just sit empty as I’m assuming it will if Liberty and Elm doesn’t happen. 

Edited May 27, 20223 yr by Ucgrad2015
Spelling is hard

I maybe reading this wrong but it seems Judge Berding threw OTR Adopts entire motion and appeal out.

 

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Magistrate rules in $80 million Liberty & Elm development

Enlarge

The height of the building at Liberty and Elm was brought down to five stories in the latest design.

ELEVAR DESIGN GROUP

By Chris Wetterich
Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

May 23, 2022

An Over-the-Rhine group has no standing to challenge the city’s approval of a massive mixed-use project, Hamilton County Magistrate Anita Berding has ruled.

But Berding’s ruling may not be the final world, with the plaintiff in the case, nonprofit real estate firm OTR Adopt, urging Hamilton County Common Pleas Judge Lisa Allen to reject it earlier this month.

Kean Development’s project in the northwest corner of Liberty and Elm streets, which also includes the demolished former Boys and Girls Club site, has been ensnared in a court battle over approvals given to it by city regulators for more than a year. The $80 million project calls for 305 units, a 210-space parking garage and 11,717 square feet of retail. It includes two new buildings and the rehabilitation of four historic buildings.

49 minutes ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

So are we basically calling Liberty and Elm dead? If this was somewhere tucked back into OTR I wouldn’t be as upset but this is such a prime corner and will really activate that section of OTR. I’d hate for it to just sit empty as I’m assuming it will if Liberty and Elm doesn’t happen. 

I thought the developer won the last round in court. Of course it is going to be appealed but it seems like as of now the development is moving towards getting the green light. What am I missing?

Just go back and read my posts which are accurate as opposed to what you might read in the papers.

 

 

So a prevalent comment is that Suder is a good lawyer because he can delay or even kill a pivotal $85m project for North of Liberty, a project fully approved and permitted by city officials, worked on by numerous building professionals, advocated by city government as solid economic development and ultimately fully approved and permitted by the city building department and financed by investors.

 

The merchants at a lonesome midweek Findlay Market and the neighbors affected by crime may even laud Suder's prowess. 

 

The fact remains that the guy represented a small-minded interest to the disadvantage of Cincinnati in a system that gives outsized leverage to bad actors.  Let's hope he didn't kill the project.

12 hours ago, DEPACincy said:

 

1. When I do drive downtown (not often), I often park in this lot. It is NEVER full, even when the north lot at Findlay Market is at capacity. Even on FCC game days. 

 

2. OTRCH own the lot. Should they not be allowed to develop their property? 

1. You are wrong. It was full today as it is at least some hours most days.

2. Mary Rivers OTRCH testified under oath that the lot netted $60,000 after expenses per year for the 24 spaces. That averages $200/mo per space. If that is not a full parking lot perhaps you can say what is.

3. I believe that an owner can do anything legal with his property. But, can I have an opinion about it? Apparently not according to you. Will you hold your opinion if the owner wants to put a single family residence on a corner lot in OTR with a nice two car detached garage? I'm guessing no.

OTRCH and our version of government is a complete joke. No entity or single lawyer should be able to hold up a project like this. This is exactly why developers outside of Cincy rarely ever do anything here, they don’t want to deal with the local bullsh*t. Until this changes we’ll never come close to catching up to our peer cities who are actually growing. 

16 hours ago, 1400 Sycamore said:

Just go back and read my posts which are accurate as opposed to what you might read in the papers.

 

 

So, if I understand you correctly, even though it seems the developer won the last round vs the management, they are essentially quietly backing away from the project because Suder will just keep filing motions to keep it bogged down. Furthermore, given the current economic climate with rising rates and material costs, it may not make much sense to proceed anymore on the project so the developer has chosen to quietly back away?

Edited May 28, 20223 yr by Brutus_buckeye

56 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

So, if I understand you correctly, even though it seems the developer won the last round vs the management, they are essentially quietly backing away from the project because Suder will just keep filing motions to keep it bogged down. Furthermore, given the current economic climate with rising rates and material costs, it may not make much sense to proceed anymore on the project so the developer has chosen to quietly back away?

No, I didn't say anything like that.

 

I think there is a chance, however remote, that the lawyers who represent the developer do not know that memoranda contra to objections must be filed within 10 days after the objections.

 

Sometimes, when the stakes are small and the outcome black and white an opposing party might be smug enough to ignore objections and let the Judge sort it out. Like when a person objects to a garnishment order. I would never have ignored objections. But, I suppose it could happen.

 

But, not with this much at stake.

 

Its either a stipulation extending time to respond or a mistake.