16 hours ago, Guy23 said:

What could the city do differently so that this wouldn’t happen again? Are there any laws or ordinances that could stop NIMBYs from holding up developments with lawsuits?

 

 

Change the regulatory regime and zoning to allow these developments by right. Then there is no venue for the NIMBYs to weigh in. 

This is random, and maybe I just want to change the subject from the other OTR thread, but I can't believe that 3CDC still doesn't have a tenant for 213 Woodward Street (the new construction restaurant across from Zeigler Pool). I guess I just thought they wouldn't have built a new building like that completely speculatively and they must've had a tenant in mind. Maybe they did and maybe the pandemic messed up their plans, but either way I'm surprised to see it still sitting empty. 

9 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

This is random, and maybe I just want to change the subject from the other OTR thread, but I can't believe that 3CDC still doesn't have a tenant for 213 Woodward Street (the new construction restaurant across from Zeigler Pool). I guess I just thought they wouldn't have built a new building like that completely speculatively and they must've had a tenant in mind. Maybe they did and maybe the pandemic messed up their plans, but either way I'm surprised to see it still sitting empty. 

 I say the same thing about the former 16 hit spot, or the Columbia building for that matter. There is multiple tenant spots and the only one,  o pie o is closing.

 

3cdc is struggling hard core right now with getting businesses to open in otr just purely judging by how many spots are sitting vacant for consecutive years now. 

9 minutes ago, Troeros2 said:

 I say the same thing about the former 16 hit spot, or the Columbia building for that matter. There is multiple tenant spots and the only one,  o pie o is closing.

 

3cdc is struggling hard core right now with getting businesses to open in otr just purely judging by how many spots are sitting vacant for consecutive years now. 

 

OTR is not as desirable as it was in 2015-2019. I think it will build back up quickly but it still hasn't recovered from the COVID era.

48 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Change the regulatory regime and zoning to allow these developments by right. Then there is no venue for the NIMBYs to weigh in. 

I think that would work in other neighborhoods but I believe that this one was held up in court because of issues relating to the historic district. The regulatory process slowed the project down but it received all the approvals it needed from the city.

 

Unless we got rid of the historic district designation- which I don’t think is a good idea- I’m wondering what the city could do to eliminate this process of using the courts to stall development.

8 minutes ago, Guy23 said:

I think that would work in other neighborhoods but I believe that this one was held up in court because of issues relating to the historic district. The regulatory process slowed the project down but it received all the approvals it needed from the city.

 

Unless we got rid of the historic district designation- which I don’t think is a good idea- I’m wondering what the city could do to eliminate this process of using the courts to stall development.

 

You can keep the historic district and just change the standards. The challenge was that the HCB misapplied the standards. Make them more lenient and more clear. 

25 minutes ago, Guy23 said:

I think that would work in other neighborhoods but I believe that this one was held up in court because of issues relating to the historic district. The regulatory process slowed the project down but it received all the approvals it needed from the city.

 

Unless we got rid of the historic district designation- which I don’t think is a good idea- I’m wondering what the city could do to eliminate this process of using the courts to stall development.

If a development receives approvals from everyone then a single person shouldn't be able to appeal and hold it up in court.  The fact someone above said hopefully 3CDC or FCC get involved is exactly the problem with our city.  Only the local companies are able to jump through all the stupid local hoops and bribe the right people to get something built in OTR.  That needs to change.  There is over half of OTR still not developed and there are little to no outside companies trying to do work there.  3CDC and Model can't and shouldn't be developing an entire neighborhood themselves.  

The city needed to come out strong to get the block parties to stop.  Now hopefully they ween off the police presence and everything else over the coming weeks.  If they didn't stamp out the block parties the problem wouldn't have gone away.  They also can't just show up for one weekend and then go back to normal, the parties would just come back.  Hopefully a couple weeks from now the street is back to some sense of normalcy. 

 

No matter what the police did though the huge news story of the shooting was going to keep a large amount of people away from the street for a little while.  If these places survived two years of covid they can survive a month or so of less business.  Certainly sucks for them but this is the consequence of the city not taking the problem seriously for far too long.  

39 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

You can keep the historic district and just change the standards. The challenge was that the HCB misapplied the standards. Make them more lenient and more clear. 

Do you know if there is any political will to push for these changes? Seems like an easy non controversial act for council. 

1 hour ago, d_burnham said:

 

OTR is not as desirable as it was in 2015-2019. I think it will build back up quickly but it still hasn't recovered from the COVID era.

I'm pretty sure it's just more expensive than it was in 2015-19. A lot of the renaissance was spurred by young people taking advantage of the affordable commercial rents to open boutiques and bars, now it costs a lot more to rent those spaces out. Just a thought. 

We just need to clarify in the charter that HCB recommendations aren't appealable as decisions to the ZBA. If that had been clear to begin with, this building would be done by now.

5 hours ago, Guy23 said:

Do you know if there is any political will to push for these changes? Seems like an easy non controversial act for council. 

Or is there a platform where we can voice our concerns with how development gets its approval and how easy it is to have it derailed. 

5 hours ago, Cincy513 said:

If a development receives approvals from everyone then a single person shouldn't be able to appeal and hold it up in court.  The fact someone above said hopefully 3CDC or FCC get involved is exactly the problem with our city.  Only the local companies are able to jump through all the stupid local hoops and bribe the right people to get something built in OTR.  That needs to change.  There is over half of OTR still not developed and there are little to no outside companies trying to do work there.  3CDC and Model can't and shouldn't be developing an entire neighborhood themselves.  

You are correct and sorry if I made it seem like I was hoping they would. Basically just stating that the only way it seems that something on that lot will get built without interference is if FCC or 3CDC develops it. I’d love nothing more than someone from out of town to come and develop underdeveloped lots not only within OTR and downtown but all over the city. Honestly most of the development that the city developers built is cheap and ugly. I’d love to see more of that Denver developer who built Industry. 

5 hours ago, küshner said:

I'm pretty sure it's just more expensive than it was in 2015-19. A lot of the renaissance was spurred by young people taking advantage of the affordable commercial rents to open boutiques and bars, now it costs a lot more to rent those spaces out. Just a thought. 

I’m in commercial real estate and I can tell you first hand that is not always the case. The commercial rates in OTR haven’t changed drastically.
 

The cost of construction has gone up quite a bit which has an impact on your total investment into a project. The deals in OTR vary so much from street to street and landlord to landlord.

Honestly there is part of me that hopes FCC buys the land and proposes some huge hotel or entertainment district for the site, and make the NIMBYs regret that they didn't just allow the apartment building to be built.

16 hours ago, Guy23 said:

Do you know if there is any political will to push for these changes? Seems like an easy non controversial act for council. 

 

Stay tuned. Several council members are working on things. 

Another thing hurting OTR right now is that every new bar/restaurant space is operated by 4EG, Thunderdome, Crown Restaurant Group, or a handful of other companies. While many of these groups do a great job of running bars/restaurants, I'm not really that excited to check out downtown's 17th 4EG concept. Combined with the fact that many of these chains now have suburban locations as well, 3CDC is not really giving suburbanites a reason to come to the core the way they did a decade ago.

 

That's another reason why I always say we need to stop treating downtown/OTR like it's an entertainment district and actually put more effort into growing the residential population (instead of allowing NIMBYs to block every new apartment building) and adding more inexpensive food options and neighborhood-oriented places that these residents want to go.

17 hours ago, ucgrady said:

This is random, and maybe I just want to change the subject from the other OTR thread, but I can't believe that 3CDC still doesn't have a tenant for 213 Woodward Street (the new construction restaurant across from Zeigler Pool). I guess I just thought they wouldn't have built a new building like that completely speculatively and they must've had a tenant in mind. Maybe they did and maybe the pandemic messed up their plans, but either way I'm surprised to see it still sitting empty. 

 

Is the building done? When I was at Zeigler Pool a few weeks ago they were still building it out. 

15 hours ago, Pdrome513 said:

We just need to clarify in the charter that HCB recommendations aren't appealable as decisions to the ZBA. If that had been clear to begin with, this building would be done by now.

I'm not sure I agree. HCB is a volunteer, unelected board and I'd be wary of giving them full/final power. If HCB decisions were never appealable, there are a lot of projects that would have never gotten built. Sometimes HCB denies a project that later gets approved through appeal to ZBA. And sometimes it goes the other way (HCB approves, then somebody appeals to ZBA to stall). 

1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Stay tuned. Several council members are working on things. 

Which council support this?

3 hours ago, taestell said:

That's another reason why I always say we need to stop treating downtown/OTR like it's an entertainment district and actually put more effort into growing the residential population (instead of allowing NIMBYs to block every new apartment building) and adding more inexpensive food options and neighborhood-oriented places that these residents want to go.

 

This is probably a controversial opinion, but I really dislike OTR's ban on chain & national restaurants. It makes sense if you're trying to market OTR as a historic entertainment district, but a real residential neighborhood should have the full range of dining options.

 

For comparison, Short North in Columbus has a Chipotle, White Castle, Donatos, and Shake Shack, regional chains like The Eagle, Bakersfield, and North Star, as well as a range of independent restaurants. Each tier compliments each other by making a more dynamic place to live.

Quote

This is probably a controversial opinion, but I really dislike OTR's ban on chain & national restaurants.

 

Is there one?  How can a City or neighborhood ban certain businesses?

There is no official ban on chains in OTR, but the major landlords like 3CDC, Model Group, and UrbanSites have clearly been avoiding signing these types of tenants. Yet another reason we need more developers than these three to be involved in the neighborhood. OTR's most affordable dining option, Subway, is located in a retail space owned by Hamilton County. Curious to see what types of tenants are signed for the ground floor of Industry.

20 minutes ago, carnevalem said:

For comparison, Short North in Columbus has a Chipotle, White Castle, Donatos, and Shake Shack, regional chains like The Eagle, Bakersfield, and North Star, as well as a range of independent restaurants. Each tier compliments each other by making a more dynamic place to live.

 

Also worth noting that Downtown does not have any of the major fast food chains after the closure of Wendy's and Taco Bell Cantina. I believe we previously had McDonald's and Burger King downtown but those closed in the 80s or 90s.

It's crazy there isn't a Skyline or Gold Star in OTR.

45 minutes ago, carnevalem said:

 

This is probably a controversial opinion, but I really dislike OTR's ban on chain & national restaurants. It makes sense if you're trying to market OTR as a historic entertainment district, but a real residential neighborhood should have the full range of dining options.

 

For comparison, Short North in Columbus has a Chipotle, White Castle, Donatos, and Shake Shack, regional chains like The Eagle, Bakersfield, and North Star, as well as a range of independent restaurants. Each tier compliments each other by making a more dynamic place to live.

I appreciate the desire to keep lower end chains out of the neighborhood. They still allow upper-scale chains, we've seen several come and go, Bonobos, Kit and Ace, Warby Parker, etc. I wouldn't mind seeing more of those smaller boutique style stores, in the vein of Byredo, Shinola, Theory, Le Labo-- high-end companies that prioritize emerging neighborhoods as opposed to established malls. 

 

I think larger footprint chains like Shakeshack would work well at the banks, but would compromise the quaintness and individuality of OTR... Although to contradict myself a bit, I wouldn't mind seeing RH come in and renovate a larger, historic building for a showroom, as they've done in Boston, NYC, Greenwich.  But overall, I support the ambition to keep OTR unique for the most part, sans the bar conglomerates saturating the city. 

53 minutes ago, carnevalem said:

It's crazy there isn't a Skyline or Gold Star in OTR.

Im not so sure there is a market for a Skyline or Gold Star in OTR, there are 3 Skylines in the central business district including one on Court Street which is borderline OTR. It would be nice if one of them stayed open until midnight or so tho they all close kinda early 

Edited August 18, 20222 yr by 646empire

51 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Im not so sure there is a market for a Skyline or Gold Star in OTR, there are 3 Skylines in the central business district including one on Court Street which is borderline OTR. It would be nice if one of them stayed open until midnight or so tho they all close kinda early 

People, supposedly, go out of their way to go to the Clifton Skyline because of how late it is open. I'm curious if that would be a useful model for one if they moved to Main or Vine in OTR.

I'm n arguing against the point about the number in the CBD though.

1 hour ago, carnevalem said:

 

Chipotle, White Castle, Donatos, and Shake Shack, regional chains like The Eagle, Bakersfield, and North Star, as well as a range of independent restaurants. Each tier compliments each other by making a more dynamic place to live.

White Castle and Donatos were in the Short North before its resurgence. They're also Columbus-based, which changes the meaning of "national chain" in this case. North Star's first location was in the Short North.  OTR has a Mikey's Late Night, which is out of CBUS. OTR has a PINS.

Not really trying to debunk your claims, I just don't think it's as pronounced as you claim it is, and it's not much of a 1:1 comparison, otherwise. There isn't really a Historicity to the Short North in its current incarnation, nor is there the sense among Columbus residents that the Short North is a one-of-a-kind place like Cincinnatians rightly feel about OTR.



 

58 minutes ago, 646empire said:

Im not so sure there is a market for a Skyline or Gold Star in OTR, there are 3 Skylines in the central business district including one on Court Street which is borderline OTR. It would be nice if one of them stayed open until midnight or so tho they all close kinda early 

 

Plus you can get coneys and 3-ways at Lucky Dogs.

5 hours ago, jwulsin said:

I'm not sure I agree. HCB is a volunteer, unelected board and I'd be wary of giving them full/final power. If HCB decisions were never appealable, there are a lot of projects that would have never gotten built. Sometimes HCB denies a project that later gets approved through appeal to ZBA. And sometimes it goes the other way (HCB approves, then somebody appeals to ZBA to stall). 

And appointed. At the risk of sounding conspiratorial, how many of the current HCB members were appointed by Cranley? I don't think Aftab should clean house, nor do I think he would do it, but I am interested to hear if there should be reform measures to clean up the advisory boards.

6 hours ago, taestell said:

Honestly there is part of me that hopes FCC buys the land and proposes some huge hotel or entertainment district for the site, and make the NIMBYs regret that they didn't just allow the apartment building to be built.

IIRC that happened in Hyde Park with the hotel getting built in front of Wasson Way between Lemon Grass and LaRosa's

1635 Race street has been flipped and appears to have 6 apartments on the upper floors being rented out. With development starting to pick up in this part of town I really want Green Street to stop being so disjointed and one way/dead end but in all the disappointment of new construction in OTR it's nice to see a building that's been vacant for decades have people in it again.

 

Shot of it getting painted below, this block will make a great before/after picture one day because it was rough looking a few years ago.

14 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I really want Green Street to stop being so disjointed

Agreed. There will be a lot of work on and around Green St in the new few years with the existing Rec Center being renovated, the daycare at corner of Race/Green getting renovated, and the new Findlay Rec Center getting built at Findlay Playground. As part of all that work, the traffic flow and parking rules will also be assessed.

HCB recommended approval for the new construction of the boutique hotel on Central Pkwy. Findings start on page 75. 

Also in this packet, Urban Sites has received approval for new construction of a 10-unit multifamily building at 214 Mulberry.

2 minutes ago, dnymck said:

HCB recommended approval for the new construction of the boutique hotel on Central Pkwy. Findings start on page 75. 

Also in this packet, Urban Sites has received approval for new construction of a 10-unit multifamily building at 214 Mulberry.

Interestingly, they've included this rendering with a reimagined Central Parkway as part of their submission.

Not sure if these are new or not, but this is looking good IMO:

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, dnymck said:

HCB recommended approval

Clarification: the HCB staff recommend approval (as they did in the past as well), but the HCB Board has not voted yet. My understanding is that the hearing is ongoing right now.

5 hours ago, dnymck said:

Interestingly, they've included this rendering with a reimagined Central Parkway as part of their submission.

 

What is that glass box in the median?

Hotel passed HCB board.

 

 

 

So what needs to happen now? Are they good to start construction immediately?

1 hour ago, Cincy_Travels said:

So what needs to happen now? Are they good to start construction immediately?

 

I believe it still needs to go to Planning Commission and then to City Council. If Planning Commission approves it, I believe it only needs a simple majority to pass city council. If they reject it, they'll need 6 votes. Correct me if I'm wrong, y'all.

 

City staff would also still need to approve construction permits and stuff, but that's more logistics and checking boxes, not political. Permits would eventually get approval.

8 hours ago, ucnum1 said:

Hotel passed HCB board.

 

 

 

And here’s the other video for the first part of the meeting (before the Board adjourned to deliberate):

 

6 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

 

I believe it still needs to go to Planning Commission and then to City Council. If Planning Commission approves it, I believe it only needs a simple majority to pass city council. If they reject it, they'll need 6 votes. Correct me if I'm wrong, y'all.

 

City staff would also still need to approve construction permits and stuff, but that's more logistics and checking boxes, not political. Permits would eventually get approval.

 

I don’t think Planning Commission or City Council approval is needed on this (projects like Liberty & Elm had to go before Planning Commission since it is a Planned Development). I could be wrong, but I think yesterday’s HCB review was the last public review, unless the opposition appeals. 

I’m no Picasso but colored in the FC hotel for massing to see what Central will look like with both hotels. 

10 hours ago, zsnyder said:

What is that glass box in the median?

I can't remember exactly, but when WVXU did a Cincinnati Edition on the redesign, there was mention of tying in the history as a canal (or the subway).  So it likely looks down into the subway tunnel, or has some element showing what the canal would have looked like.

 

https://www.wvxu.org/show/cincinnati-edition/2022-01-12/central-parkway-future-cincinnati-parks-plan

2 hours ago, jwulsin said:

I don’t think Planning Commission or City Council approval is needed on this (projects like Liberty & Elm had to go before Planning Commission since it is a Planned Development). I could be wrong, but I think yesterday’s HCB review was the last public review, unless the opposition appeals. 

 

I assumed they needed zoning variances or changes, but if it's a certificate of appropriateness only, and they are following the zoning code, I guess that's true. I just looked back at the HCB notice and didn't see any reference to zoning relief. Interesting.

Original Submission:

Version approved yesterday:

 

It actually got taller and it got approved! The massing has improved a ton IMO and it looks like they worked on the detailing a ton. I love the repetition of the arches on the first floor, playing off the existing arch on the building and think this project is a home run. I never like to see a pre-civil war building torn down, but in this case I think it's a clear improvement and a much needed anchor hotel for OTR. 

Edited August 23, 20222 yr by ucgrady

  

1 minute ago, Dev said:

 

 

On 8/17/2022 at 4:38 PM, Cincy513 said:

The city needed to come out strong to get the block parties to stop.  Now hopefully they ween off the police presence and everything else over the coming weeks.  If they didn't stamp out the block parties the problem wouldn't have gone away.  They also can't just show up for one weekend and then go back to normal, the parties would just come back.  Hopefully a couple weeks from now the street is back to some sense of normalcy. 

 

No matter what the police did though the huge news story of the shooting was going to keep a large amount of people away from the street for a little while.  If these places survived two years of covid they can survive a month or so of less business.  Certainly sucks for them but this is the consequence of the city not taking the problem seriously for far too long.  

 

That’s how it’s done by individual bars or clubs, and it makes sense that a district would do the same thing.   Once everyone realize something needs to be done, you have to crack down, and do so visibly.   Overkill may be necessary, “underkill” is useless or worse. 

 

You gradually back down, but a problem that took awhile to brew up isn’t going to go away in a week.   To be blunt, you have to chase away the problem people long enough for them to find other places to go and get them in the habit of going there.

 

You’re going to lose business for awhile, but should be able to gradually build it back. 

Cincinnati.Com trying to rile up some pushback for the new hotel by TQL.