14 hours ago, jwulsin said:

I think you mean Huber homes on Elm

Yes! thank you.

Taft Brewery talk here --> 

 

On 11/12/2023 at 7:44 AM, Ucgrad2015 said:

Yes! thank you.

Or, "Hueber" homes on Elm. I never noticed that unusual spelling of the name.

Last night a 31 year old man died next door. From our home at 1529 Elm, the shots were loud and literally about 10 ft away in the adjoining building.

 

1531 Elm, the building next door to it, and many, many others in the neighborhood, are Airbnb hotels. See the entrance door and its telltale lockbox jewelry.

 

I think these Airbnb hotels are ruining OTR as a neighborhood for those of us who make it our home. We don’t know who comes and goes. We don’t get the pleasure of getting to know who lives next to us. Just suitcases and parties. 

 

All of this in service of greedy owners who don’t care about providing good homes for good people.

 

That property looks like it is owned by Ean Siemer (though a series of shells). He is local. Perhaps a  call to him would be a good starting point.  In OTR, sensible Air BNB managers only rent to out of town visitors, allow no parties (even grandma's 90th birthday) and reject anyone with a AirBNB or VRBO complaint.

Edited November 23, 20231 yr by 1400 Sycamore

1 hour ago, 1400 Sycamore said:

That property looks like it is owned by Ean Siemer (though a series of shells). He is local. Perhaps a  call to him would be a good starting point.  In OTR, sensible Air BNB managers only rent to out of town visitors, allow no parties (even grandma's 90th birthday) and reject anyone with a AirBNB or VRBO complaint.

Thanks - It is owned by Ean, whom I know. I have interacted with him for years, and certainly did so after this event. I am running into an unavoidable conflict between homeowners, and his chosen business model.

I think we need regulations, to put it bluntly. I have nothing against someone renting a unit short term, but Ean's and others model is to take this to the extreme. They buy properties in OTR, minimally rehab / maintain them, and rent them out 100% for anything more than a day with only the checks that Airbnb etc can provide. Contrast that with my apartment building that is rented for minimum 12 month leases, and with prior background and credit checks on everybody.

If you're interested in what ES properties does specifically - These properties are rented through multiple outlets including FurnishedFinder, VRBO, Airbnb, and a real estate grouping called "Drew and Ingrid". Some of what they offer? You can rent the entire building that is “ideal for any team or traveling group.” "Events" are specifically allowed, including “family gatherings, birthday parties, and weddings” Their advertising focuses on proximity to TQL stadium, the casino, as well as OTR attractions. Put all of that together, and does it sound like a building that would make a good neighbor? I can assure you that it is not.

My main point is that they are running virtual hotels and event centers where nobody meets anybody, and there is no on site manager with everything "touchless". This seems to be an amazing thing but in the end you get a degradation of the community because of the invisible revolving door of renters. 

Ean's business model is fragile. It only takes a couple of negative reviews to get kicked off the platforms.

 

For my part, I would dial 911 every time I heard a noise above 90 decibels. "911? Sounds like a disturbance at 1531 Elm". A few police visits and his reviews will drop like a brick.

 

Just tell him. "Ean, you're a splendid guy, but the CPD is going to be in your space unless you police these units yourself . . . "

 

As for regulations, there is a revenue stream. That means City Clowncil will not prohibit them. They will just want more money to waste on other vote getting giveaways.

Edited November 23, 20231 yr by 1400 Sycamore

using 911 to game airbnb reviews.


 

5 hours ago, zsnyder said:

using 911 to game airbnb reviews.

Using 911 to avoid murder, mayhem or just disorderly conduct
 

 

pre-cognition of crimes based solely on noise level is not an emergency.

 

5 hours ago, zsnyder said:

pre-cognition of crimes based solely on noise level is not an emergency.

 

A loud verbal dispute is the best indication of upcoming violence. Ask any cop.

On 11/24/2023 at 10:31 AM, zsnyder said:

pre-cognition of crimes based solely on noise level is not an emergency.

 

The issue is what is acceptable in terms of land use in OTR. If you are on the side of "land ownership is the sole determinant of land use" (I'm not saying that you are), then you get what that evolves into.

 

If you are on the side of "land ownership is finite and virtually unlimited uses and renters is incompatible with maintaining community health" (I am) then you ask for rules on land use. I am saying that renting out units, and indeed entire buildings, by the day or weekend, to renters that nobody has any interest in vetting cause they are visitors and only represent $$$, will eventually degrade society for those people that choose to live there.

 

I think what @1400 Sycamorewas saying is that, in the absence of those rules, then here come the cops. I agree, that can turn out badly. All the more reason for City Council to debate rules on short term rentals that go beyond just trying to get tax dollars.

On 11/24/2023 at 3:56 PM, 1400 Sycamore said:

A loud verbal dispute is the best indication of upcoming violence. Ask any cop.

This reply is not at all in the spirit of what you originally suggested.

On 11/22/2023 at 1:40 PM, jim uber said:

I think these Airbnb hotels are ruining OTR as a neighborhood for those of us who make it our home. We don’t know who comes and goes. We don’t get the pleasure of getting to know who lives next to us. Just suitcases and parties. 

 

I fully agree with this. I'm not opposed to having visitors in the neighborhood -- I'd actually love to see more hotel options in OTR for people who want to visit and experience the neighborhood. But every residential unit turned into an AirBNB is a unit that's not going to be filled with a resident who walks down the street every day (adding to the vibrancy and safety of the neighborhood), supports local businesses, and cares about the neighborhood. Having such a large number AirBNBs that allow parties perpetuates the idea that the urban core is Adult Disneyland, just a place for bachelor/bachelorette parties and crazy nights out.

I don't think Airbnb's have a negative impact on businesses or street activity. If the Airbnb is geared towards having parties, then yeah they aren't interacting with the neighborhood. But most Airbnb's explicitly don't allow parties, despite this one example we are talking about.

 

While the average person living in OTR goes out to eat a couple of times a week, an Airbnb usually has guests eating out at restaurants every day they are occupied. They are walking around the neighborhood and many are shopping at stores.

 

There are legitimate complaints about how they are run, and artificially limiting the regular population. But I would argue restaurants do better with a good mix of residents and visitors. Those visitors would be better placed in hotels. But there isn't really any availability in OTR (the only one I can think of is the tiny Symphony Hotel).

35 minutes ago, taestell said:

But every residential unit turned into an AirBNB is a unit that's not going to be filled with a resident who walks down the street every day (adding to the vibrancy and safety of the neighborhood), supports local businesses, and cares about the neighborhood. Having such a large number AirBNBs that allow parties perpetuates the idea that the urban core is Adult Disneyland, just a place for bachelor/bachelorette parties and crazy nights out.

Does it though? You could almost argue the reverse. Does having a permanent apartment resident spur street life or does tourism and visitors? 

There are a lot of people who work 9-5 or even longer during the week, they spend their evening hours preparing a small quick dinner for themselves, going to the gym (which is not walkable), driving to the Kroger (in Hyde Park or Newport), and then spending many of their weekends doing activities that are not in OTR. Yes, they may occasionally go to a local pub for a drink or they go to one of the local restaurants but how regularly are they doing this? AND when they do this, how much are they spending?

 

Whereas, you have the AirBNB crowd that comes to town for various reasons, but they are there to spend money at the local establishments. The bars and restaurants get more money per capita on the people going out for their bachelorette party or FCC soccer game or whatever other reason brings them to OTR. They are more likely to find a local breakfast spot on their visit (because majority of them wont cook in their AirBNB unit) and spend money there. You can argue that the AirBNB transient visitor will spend more money in the area than a regular resident who is there every day.

 

Now there are certain businesses that obviously do better with long term renters than weekend visitors. If you are looking for more of a M-F boutique crowd, then certainly a more residential community would be a benefit, but if you are looking for more of a nightlife, eclectic restaurants and bars, galleries, and other attractions; then the short term rental market caters to that better. 

 

I think the bigger question is what type of mix and what type of economy that people in OTR seek?

16 hours ago, jim uber said:

If you are on the side of "land ownership is finite and virtually unlimited uses and renters is incompatible with maintaining community health" (I am) then you ask for rules on land use. I am saying that renting out units, and indeed entire buildings, by the day or weekend, to renters that nobody has any interest in vetting cause they are visitors and only represent $$$, will eventually degrade society for those people that choose to live there.

I think things should be put in perspective a bit. Yes, occasionally, an AirBNB weekend stay, like any hotel, can get loud or rowdy because of Alcohol involved. Such is life in the city. The same happens frequently with apartments when people have guests over. The bigger issue is that you have a building with shared walls and floors and sound travels. 

Yes, you will have this more in a hotel or AirBNB, because the venue encourages people to "Pregame" before going out for the big night out. However, this is not too much different than a group of 20 something people getting together in their apartment on Friday or Saturday night and doing the same thing. The key difference is that there is a bit more accountability because the person can be evicted (if the landlord cares to do something about it) vs the AirBNB tenant just losing their deposit. 

 

Looking at your situation about the person dying in the building next door, that is likely nothing to do with AirBNB and more to do with that individual's state of mind when he died. He could have just as easily been a permanent resident next door and did the same thing. Did the fact that it was Air BNB make the area less safe? Probably not. 

 

I get it that you get frustrated by seeing a ton of new faces and only having them there for the weekend. It does not foster a neighborly environment and you never get to know your neighbors because the building is transient. Some people do not have an issue with this while others may. To that, it is time to vote with your feet and find a better area of town or even better block that better suits your needs. 

 

Regarding regulations, while council can pass some regulations regarding AirBNB's and taxing them, their hands are tied in many areas when it comes to getting rid of them. Legally, there are limited options that city council can do in the area. It is best to accept that fact and know you will just have to live with them as long as you live in OTR. 

8 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

 

Regarding regulations, while council can pass some regulations regarding AirBNB's and taxing them, their hands are tied in many areas when it comes to getting rid of them. Legally, there are limited options that city council can do in the area. It is best to accept that fact and know you will just have to live with them as long as you live in OTR. 

What is the basis of this statement? NYC recently eliminated STR and sustained the new law over Airbnb litigation. 

14 minutes ago, breakground said:

What is the basis of this statement? NYC recently eliminated STR and sustained the new law over Airbnb litigation. 

Ohio landlord/Tenant law is not as flexible as New York would be. Cities can take some actions, and can certainly do things like taxation and some fees to limit the profitability of AirBNB, they can impose inspection requirements to create additional burdens,  but they cannot ban them on their own. THey would need help from the state to do some of this, which is probably not going to happen on that front. 

 

Just because it works in New York or California does not mean it will work in ohio, and vice versa. Each state offers its own uniqueness. 

Edited November 27, 20231 yr by Brutus_buckeye

Landlord tenant law is not the applicable law.

 

Cincinnati considered regulating STRs a few years ago. There was no claim made by anyone that it would not be allowed under Ohio law. In the end, Airbnb successfully supported local lobbying to eliminate Council support. THAT might happen again - but unless the Ohio law has changed in the interim, regulation limiting STRs is possible here. 

Edited November 27, 20231 yr by breakground

 

An ordinary city neighborhood that has residents displaced for what are essentially hotel guests means there are fewer people to support ordinary neighborhood things.  For example, a particular area that drops from 10,000 to 9,000 full-time residents will see business oriented to them start to fail (reduce hours, etc.).  If the missing 1,000 residents are replaced by periodic hotel guests, it will still see most of those same things fail.  

 

That IS a problem. As a retailer if I get a sense that somewhere is a place where all of people's money goes in their mouths I'm not going to open. If you lose any more permanent residents to STR then you even start losing things like hair salons and Snap Fitness to even more bars, taprooms and restaurants that are open 4 months then close and sit empty for 18 months while getting remodeled again.

5 minutes ago, GCrites said:

That IS a problem. As a retailer if I get a sense that somewhere is a place where all of people's money goes in their mouths I'm not going to open. If you lose any more permanent residents to STR then you even start losing things like hair salons and Snap Fitness to even more bars, taprooms and restaurants that are open 4 months then close and sit empty for 18 months while getting remodeled again.

 

In Nashville, tons of storefronts close to downtown have sat empty for years because the owners are negotiating to sell their buildings to developers.  A building or group of buildings is easier to sell if a new owner doesn't have to hassle with breaking someone's lease. 

 

Luckily, Cincinnati doesn't have that problem.  The historic OTR buildings aren't going to get torn down.  But their storefront spaces are often comically small, have a step up or step down where someone expanded the thing in 1890, pillars, etc., and so aren't well-suited for almost any sort of business. 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

 

An ordinary city neighborhood that has residents displaced for what are essentially hotel guests means there are fewer people to support ordinary neighborhood things.  For example, a particular area that drops from 10,000 to 9,000 full-time residents will see business oriented to them start to fail (reduce hours, etc.).  If the missing 1,000 residents are replaced by periodic hotel guests, it will still see most of those same things fail.  

 

It is certainly industry specific. To your point, short term rentals do not benefit dry cleaners, hair salons, local pharmacies, and small boutiques. However, they do benefit the restaurant, bar, brewery, entertainment venue, gallery, etc. 

 

I don't think you can make the argument that Short Term Rentals will cause the neighborhood to fail and drive away all the businesses.  Certainly some businesses would suffer while others would thrive. I would say that the overall dollars spent would increase in an area with a lot of short term rentals. 

 

More dollars spent is obviously beneficial to the economy as a whole, but there are certainly drawbacks to the neighborhood that should be discussed too. 

3 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Does it though? You could almost argue the reverse. Does having a permanent apartment resident spur street life or does tourism and visitors? 

There are a lot of people who work 9-5 or even longer during the week, they spend their evening hours preparing a small quick dinner for themselves, going to the gym (which is not walkable), driving to the Kroger (in Hyde Park or Newport), and then spending many of their weekends doing activities that are not in OTR. Yes, they may occasionally go to a local pub for a drink or they go to one of the local restaurants but how regularly are they doing this? AND when they do this, how much are they spending?

 

Whereas, you have the AirBNB crowd that comes to town for various reasons, but they are there to spend money at the local establishments. The bars and restaurants get more money per capita on the people going out for their bachelorette party or FCC soccer game or whatever other reason brings them to OTR. They are more likely to find a local breakfast spot on their visit (because majority of them wont cook in their AirBNB unit) and spend money there. You can argue that the AirBNB transient visitor will spend more money in the area than a regular resident who is there every day.

 

Now there are certain businesses that obviously do better with long term renters than weekend visitors. If you are looking for more of a M-F boutique crowd, then certainly a more residential community would be a benefit, but if you are looking for more of a nightlife, eclectic restaurants and bars, galleries, and other attractions; then the short term rental market caters to that better. 

 

I think the bigger question is what type of mix and what type of economy that people in OTR seek?

 

I agree that AirBnb aren't necessarily bad. But a quibble with your characterization is that there are multiple gym options that are walkable and there is a downtown Kroger that residents use. 

Short-term rentals didn't solve almost any problems for almost any city neighborhoods.  It didn't solve many problems for travelers, either. 

 

Airbnb seems to fascinate boring people. 

 

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I agree that AirBnb aren't necessarily bad. But a quibble with your characterization is that there are multiple gym options that are walkable and there is a downtown Kroger that residents use. 

To be fair, I did minimize the significance of the downtown Kroger and gym options downtown (mostly in the CBD). 

I do not have a dog in the fight necessarily, but ultimately, my point was that AirBNB does not destroy the neighborhood, it just changes the types of businesses that would be there.

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

Airbnb seems to fascinate boring people. 

 

Oh yeah, man, and I bet those people also don’t understand how cool MTV was back in the day and how music is just boring now. Hey, wanna tell us about Mariah Carey again?

2 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Short Term Rentals will cause the neighborhood to fail and drive away all the businesses.

It might. And too many STRs can certainly drive away residents...and homebuyers. 

I've enjoyed this discussion!

 

If I had anything else to add, it's that this is not about "either you have airbnb, or you don't" - it's about thinking and having a debate about whether there are sensible rules to follow. I stay in Airbnb frequently - they used to be better when you had actual property owners running them, but whatever. I even ran an airbnb in one unit of my 7 unit apartment building next door, until I got tired of cleaning toilets.

 

Also, if you live in OTR and are paying attention, you probably know that this is far from just a one building or one owner or "one night" issue. The building operated by this one entity - ES Rentals - owns at least 4 OTR properties I can point to that are run according to the same model. It's a scalable business. I get that. But before virtual-ness of everything became a virtue, scalability just meant efficiency. You still had a human being somewhere. The lobby was staffed. This is just a building with an app allowing virtually anyone to walk in or out, and do whatever they want until someone complains. Sorry, but that sort of thing just didn't exist before.

 

It's a stretch to connect this to anything larger, but I'm willing to try! To me, it's just a continuation of the degradation of humanity. Virtual friends, virtual social networks, virtual work, virtual hotels. And no, I'm no luddite; I develop software. Some of my software is going to eliminate jobs. It's a struggle, and it should be.

Edited November 27, 20231 yr by jim uber

What it really shows is that there is demand for lodging besides just next to convention centers and off of outerbelts. The traditional lodging industry basically only supplied those two markets for over 50 years. Now AirBnB has shown them that urban lodging is in demand but the traditional lodging industry can't move as fast as individual small business owners can by just letting their buildings' 1-year leases expire, adding electronic locks and hiring a few custodians. Perhaps the quickest way for traditional lodging to get in on the action is to sign a few floors of newly constructed mid-rise residential/mixed use buildings before construction since building a new high-rise hotel is a long process.

34 minutes ago, breakground said:

It might. And too many STRs can certainly drive away residents...and homebuyers. 

that is certainly a tradeoff that those in the area need to figure out what they want more. If they want a ton of residents with minimal restaurants and bars, then certainly STR are not a good fit for the area. If people want to live in an entertainment destination and want to be in an area where they are around a ton of entertainment options, bars, breweries, etc. then you make the tradeoff to have more STRs and deal with the problems that go with it. As OTR has become an entertainment destination, STR are an important part of that fabric. If you want a more traditional neighborhood, then maybe Mt. Lookout or Hyde Park or Norwood would be a better fit

1 hour ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

that is certainly a tradeoff that those in the area need to figure out what they want more. If they want a ton of residents with minimal restaurants and bars, then certainly STR are not a good fit for the area. If people want to live in an entertainment destination and want to be in an area where they are around a ton of entertainment options, bars, breweries, etc. then you make the tradeoff to have more STRs and deal with the problems that go with it. As OTR has become an entertainment destination, STR are an important part of that fabric. If you want a more traditional neighborhood, then maybe Mt. Lookout or Hyde Park or Norwood would be a better fit

Sorry but your consistent zero-sum-game argument is failing to land. 

Unfortunately retail as a whole is a zero-sum game but bars and restaurants are not as much.

41 minutes ago, GCrites said:

Unfortunately retail as a whole is a zero-sum game but bars and restaurants are not as much.

What I meant was, you don’t have to choose “I want Airbnb hotels everywhere “ or “I want no Airbnb units anywhere” there are many options that could be policy. 

Jim has it right above. Its not all or nothing.

 

The problems come from three things.

 

Locals want to party in the OTR with their own private crib for doing what they shouldn't be doing in the street.

 

Its somebody's birthday and momma won't let anyone do it at her place.

 

Sports spectators want to get so drunk they know can't get home to the outlying places they come from.

 

If you can't rent a unit without an out of town phone and confirmation address, and a perfect AirBNB history and no parties, tailgate or anything you don't have these problems in the first place. 

 

 

We have a baby crane for Liberty and Elm. 

I've been waiting for Liberty and Elm for a long time. They will also renovate a few historic buildings with this as well, correct? What is the total number of apartments with it again?

On 12/6/2023 at 12:26 PM, IAGuy39 said:

I've been waiting for Liberty and Elm for a long time. They will also renovate a few historic buildings with this as well, correct? What is the total number of apartments with it again?

305 total units. There are 4 current buildings they will rehabilitate which I will assume are the ones that I have circled. 

Edited December 8, 20231 yr by Ucgrad2015

Wow, that's a ton of units for that area, so great to see it finally coming to fruition

3 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

Wow, that's a ton of units for that area, so great to see it finally coming to fruition

 

Unlike the circa-2016 townhouses on Race St.. which brought a whopping 10 new residents to the streetcar line:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1117199,-84.5193755,144m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu 

21 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Unlike the circa-2016 townhouses on Race St.. which brought a whopping 10 new residents to the streetcar line:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1117199,-84.5193755,144m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu 

 

Those townhomes were just about the worst possible use of a rare vacant lot along the streetcar route.

On 12/8/2023 at 4:50 PM, Lazarus said:

 

Unlike the circa-2016 townhouses on Race St.. which brought a whopping 10 new residents to the streetcar line:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1117199,-84.5193755,144m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu 

I remember that...

And each one has a two-car garage! 

On 12/8/2023 at 4:50 PM, Lazarus said:

 

Unlike the circa-2016 townhouses on Race St.. which brought a whopping 10 new residents to the streetcar line:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1117199,-84.5193755,144m/data=!3m1!1e3?entry=ttu 

Elm Street*

Cincinnati Metropolitan Housing Authority, Urban Sites plan dozens of new apartments at Findlay Market

By Chris Wetterich – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

Dec 12, 2023

 

Developers are building a new $14.4 million, 42-unit apartment building in the former surface parking lot west of Findlay Market at 1750 Elder St., adding further density to the rapidly redeveloping area around Ohio's oldest public market.

 

The Cincinnati Metropolitan Housing Authority (CMHA) is developing Logan Commons with several partners, including Urban Sites, Hamilton County and the city, which sold the site to it for $1.

 

The new building is a key part of CMHA’s plan to upgrade public housing in the region. It will be the second new building the agency has built inside the city in the past 11 years.

 

MORE

 

Crazy how the past 2 years this section of OTR has gone from vacant and parking lots to complete infill. 

They're putting that crane to quick use, the first floor of residential is popping up quick:

 

Also they painted the new CoHatch colors at Findlay, I like the bright green and there aren't too many neighborhoods or places where a bright green color like that could actually "fit in" but Findlay is certainly one of them. 

2 hours ago, Ucgrad2015 said:

Crazy how the past 2 years this section of OTR has gone from vacant and parking lots to complete infill. 

 

What's the next area?

 

Guessing the Vine Street Corridor (west of Vine Street to Pleasant Street?) Feels like there is a lot starting to pop up on that Vine Street corridor now??

Desperately needed garage opens near fast-growing Findlay Market

 

Hamilton County Commissioner Denise Driehaus and her 88-year-old mother are regular visitors to Findlay Market on the weekends, but they have the same problem a lot of people do.

 

“We have to come a little earlier each time. We just drive around” looking for a parking space, Driehaus said. “And I’m pretty good at on-street parking.”

 

Parking at Findlay Market should get better – or at least the number of spots will be far more abundant – after a new $31 million, 515-space garage opens on Wednesday, Dec. 13. The garage replaces a 91-space surface parking lot and adds 15,000 square feet of street-level retail space that is currently up for lease.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2023/12/12/findlay-market-garage-opens.html