Michael, although not techinically in OTR what is going on with the building at Main and Mulberry that is getting facade work done? is that a spitz building?

We call it the BP building because of the color scheme.  Doug doesn't own it and I am not sure if it is simply a paint job or if any real work is being done to the whole building.  Now the building next to the garden by the basketball courts is being redone as well.  Doug hasn't done anything except clean out a building on Seitz with the yellow boards on the windows.

I would like to see another bar, not a club in OTR. Cue is just not my scene...

It isn't mine either but it is others.  If we can do a mix, something for everyone then we will have a successful Main.  Speakeasy will be much more my speed and the JHall location will be for someone else and Mixx for someone else and so on.  Cue is just the first, not the only venue in this phase.

Does anyone know the history of RoboCop? 

I think it is similar to that of the 6 million dollar man.

^

...thanks for the great insight.  I meant the Robo Cop on Vine, painted on the building

And I'm not hating on Cue, I went there for a buddy's birthday and we had a blast, it's just not going to become my local hangout...

 

I wonder if Rhino's business is picking up because of all the development in the neighborhood.

Rhino's has always had its "regulars" but I am sure they are benefiting, it would be hard not to.  Same with Below Zero, I know they are benefiting.  And with Ball North and South and above Kaldis being developed now, others like Pitifuls will benefit to.  The place to watch though is Grammers.  This summer I think that place will be incredibly popular.    Speakeasy has the opportunity to be the southern hangout more accessible to the Q and from Speakeasy you can go back and forth from Cue in the back so that will benefit both.

 

But for just hanging out, Pitifuls is hard to beat.  I go in there just to talk to Bob.  That along with Kevin at Milton's are really personality driven bars and just have a great feel to them.

Kevin rules!  Everybody do themselves a favor and stop by Miltons he supports the area big time!

I hope Below Zero is benefiting, they essentially moved here for the Q. Again, not my scene, but I hope they do well. An entertainment district should cater to everyone.

I am not a big fan of the clubs on Main and alot of negative press comes from the closings and shootings that happen at the clubs and nearby them.

 

I thought I heard a gunshot last night. Just read this on the news.

 

A police officer fires a shot during an encounter with a suspect early this morning.

 

The Cincinnati officer tried to approach the man around 1:00 a.m. at 13th and Broadway in Over-the-Rhine. The officer wanted to question the man about an earlier report of shots fired at a nearby club.

 

The officers say the man was acting strangely, refused an order to stay back, then put his hands up in a threatening manner. That's when the officer fired a shot.

 

No one was hurt. The man was taken into custody.

 

 

 

I am trying to find out right now what the details are.

 

How is it that we can have clubs in the CBD, Mt. Adams, Mt. Lookout, and Newport on the Levee and have little to no problems?  Why is OTR a problem club spot, and I am asking not because it isn't, I am asking because I truly do not know.  My problem with having the 12th St not an entertainment dist is that what else do you put into those spots?  And I mean realistically put in them,  with space as big as it is and liquor lic sitting on them as well.  A vacant block will draw just as much trouble. 

A vacant block will draw just as much trouble. 

 

I think that answers your question as to why the clubs in OTR have had so much trouble.  This will change in time.

Do you mean the other vacancies that are currently there?  Vacancies beget vacancies and if we say that this is at least part of the problem then the solution is not to take down clubs, but bring in other venues (not just clubs) to the immediate area.  And this is happening.  The other problem has been bad operators.  From Red Cheatah, to Club Red, to Ocho Rios and Club Dream, three of them had one thing in common, the landlord.  Steve Ross no longer lives in Cincinnati and lives in Indianapolis.  Does some of this fall on him?  He has now resigned the same owner of Ocho Rios who had the first murder of the year to reopen under a different name in the same location.

 

I do not know what the answer is.

bring back club clau.  this, this is the answer.

I was referring to the large vacancy rate in the entire surrounding area.  There is little doubt in my mind that large scale vacancy draws a less than savory element to a neighborhood, and it seems to me that a large part of the trouble at OTR clubs is due at least in part not to patrons of the clubs in general but a certain group of patrons who would be frequenting vacant areas regardless of the presence of clubs.

 

The solution is not to take down clubs, the solution is to repopulate OTR, a trend that is establishing and will hopefully continue.

I would have said DV8 but I'm old.  Take that space, the Clau space, the Club Red space.  What else could realistically go there?  A grocery store?  It just isn't going to happen, it sounds good but it will not happen.  Parking alone kills you with every single prospect.

Parking alone kills you with every single prospect.

 

Never mind loading.  I would suggest a bookstore, but honestly, the spaces are too big for the type of venture I would like to see... At least initially.

large scale vacancy draws a less than savory element to a neighborhood, and it seems to me that a large part of the trouble at OTR clubs is due at least in part not to patrons of the clubs in general but a certain group of patrons who would be frequenting vacant areas regardless of the presence of clubs.

 

that was exactly the reason that Club Red stated they wanted to locate in that spot and why the Ritz was looking at it as well and is located where they are now.  They want a level of separation from anyone who would care enough to complain.  Go to an area that no one cares about, that is dead and where the police are trying to contain, not eliminate problems.  That was OTR and it is Bond Hill but now that is changing here and now these stories are becoming more and more rare.

Taking clubs to "dead" areas is a recipe for trouble.  I understand from an owners perspective that they don't want to deal with neighborhood noise complaints, etc, but its not like its impossible to have a club as a good neighbor.  My supposition is that if you did a nationwide survey of where the clubs with the most problems are located you'd find that they were in relatively vacant, under utilized, urban/industrial areas.  Then, you go to places where they aren't a problem (as above) and they are largely good neighbors, and in populated areas with lots of pedestrian eyes on the street.

I think that one of the answers  lies with the landlords.  Treat Main Street like a mall, one big outdoor mall whereas it is recognized in the leases that either the positive or negative aspects of any one location directly impacts the other spaces as well.  Main needs to adopt a single lease and have verbiage that states consequences for mishaps like last night that may include rent escalators or even termination if it continues to happen.  There also needs to be an association that is forced by the lease to all leaseholders that pays for additional policing and the bars should certainly pay more but every single place benefits from this so everyone should pay some portion.  Call it one big CAM of sorts.

 

When the thinking goes from looking at one space to all of Main working together, a lot of problems could be solved contractually.

When the thinking goes from looking at one space to all of Main working together, a lot of problems could be solved contractually.

 

Interesting way to think about dealing with it.  I like it.  One sticking point though is that malls/shopping spaces can dictate leases because there is one owner of the property.  While there might be some consensus among the owners on main to a common lease with provisions like you mentioned, its hard to think of anything that would prevent an individual owner from giving up on the common lease....  Short of some sort of business entity arrangement between the owners... Definitely food for thought.

How is it that we can have clubs in the CBD, Mt. Adams, Mt. Lookout, and Newport on the Levee and have little to no problems?  Why is OTR a problem club spot, and I am asking not because it isn't, I am asking because I truly do not know.  My problem with having the 12th St not an entertainment dist is that what else do you put into those spots? 

 

I think the big difference is that in the CBD, Mt. Adams, Mt. Lookout, Mainstrasse, and NOTL, you have primarily bars, not clubs.  You might have a club mixed in here and there, but certainly not the majority like the Main Street district has traditionally been comprised of.  Basically, you need more Rhinos, Mr. Pitifuls and Main City (man I miss that bar) on Main Street and less Club Clau, etc.  The difference between a club and a bar is debatable, I guess, but all of the shootings seem to happen in one, not the other.

I have no doubt that we would not get complete by in.  However there could be benefits to joining into the "association" the same way that you would have benefits to joining the chamber.  Legal help including lease structure and lease enforcement could be one. 

I think the big difference is that in the CBD, Mt. Adams, Mt. Lookout, Mainstrasse, and NOTL, you have primarily bars, not clubs.

I agree but what does that mean?  Is it less clubs overall or a smaller percentage in which case we can dilute the existing club space with additional bar/restraunt venues?  This to could be an agreement worked out between Stough, Schneider and Ross that X is the mix of Bars to clubs we are looking for.  What is the mix of 4th street live in Louiville?

I am not sure its the type of establishment, club v. bar.  There are plenty of areas in many many cities where its just all clubs.  And they don't see the same concentration of problems.  I can think of areas in Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, Miami.... the list goes on, where there are entire streets where there are only clubs.  And they don't seem to have the same problems.  The one key differentiator that I can think of for those "club streets" is that they are not in the middle of largely vacant areas.  They have neighbors, and they know that they have to keep their neighbors happy if they wish to keep their "license to print money"

There is that, and where are they drawing their patrons from.  I know Chicago on Rush Street it is a makeup of a lot of tourist.  That would also be the case with most CBD entertainment dist. but I know for a fact that hotel concierges discourage people from going to Main.  Does this feed the problem?  Perhaps in part. 

^ I think a smaller percentage would work out well.  The upside for bars is that they typically function as restaraunts during the day, which is far superior to a dark storefront with a locked door until 9pm, which is what you get with a club.  They also attract a different crowd than clubs.  These are people that yes, are looking to get drunk, but are also looking for a place to eat, shoot pool, watch sports, etc.  More diversions to keep people out of trouble.

 

I think that places like BlackFinn downtown and Cosmo's on Mainstrasse offer a decent compromise.  They're primarily bars, but they have a "club" upstairs or in the back.  This might not be a bad way to go, because you can still attract the crowd that likes clubs, but in a more controlled atmosphere along with patrons that are just there to hang out and have a burger and a few beers.

 

Never been to 4th street live, so I can't comment on that.

I completely agree with that assessment.  The problem is getting landlords to look beyond the lease and look at the mix.  I think the only way to do that is if they agree to work together.

I can think of areas in Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Philadelphia, Miami.... the list goes on, where there are entire streets where there are only clubs.  And they don't seem to have the same problems.  The one key differentiator that I can think of for those "club streets" is that they are not in the middle of largely vacant areas.

 

I think you have a point there.  I've been to the area of Chicago you mentioned and had a great time (and I'm not a club guy).  But given that Main Street is located in a largely vacant area, at least for now, it seems that comparing Main Street to those examples isn't an "apples to apples" comparison.  Ideally, having a "club district" is a great asset for a city, but I just don't think Main Street is there yet.

Main Street isn't there yet, but with the spaces that are there, it could be that district (Many people have already tried).  Some more bar/restaurant mixed types of places could certainly be what bridges the gap... Hard part is still that many of those spaces are huge.  Restaurant wise, you'd have to draw an enormous day crowd to justify the use of the space.  The day when I hear the doorman at the Westin (right outside my office) recommend that someone go down to Main will be a happy day for me (but thats not there yet).

Relevant to many threads but I'll post it here:

 

This is from a post I made earlier this morning, I read another story on OTR on another News Outlet, What exactly happened? The news are reporting 2 different locations.

 

A police officer fires a shot during an encounter with a suspect early this morning.

 

The Cincinnati officer tried to approach the man around 1:00 a.m. at 13th and Broadway in Over-the-Rhine. The officer wanted to question the man about an earlier report of shots fired at a nearby club.

 

The officers say the man was acting strangely, refused an order to stay back, then put his hands up in a threatening manner. That's when the officer fired a shot.

 

No one was hurt. The man was taken into custody.

 

 

 

Officer Fires Warning Shot In OTR

 

Last Update: 12:17 pm 

 

Web produced by: Alyssa Bunn

 

A Cincinnati police officer had to use his gun to defend himself in Over-the-Rhine Thursday morning.

 

The officer said he was forced to fire a warning shot after a man charged at his cruiser.

 

The incident allegedly took place around 1 a.m. outside of Mr. Pitiful's bar on Main Street.

Officials said the officer was responding to a report of shots fired in the area when this all took place.

 

According to authorities, the shot did not hit anyone and no one was hurt.

 

 

 

If it happened outside of Pitifuls, I guarantee it did not come from inside Pitifuls.  Bob has no tolerance for this sort of thing.  This sounds like Pitifuls was just the easy and unfortunate landmark.

One other thing that is an interim step in what we have been talking about about vacancies that also is a "mall" concept is a zero vacant store front policy.  Either give away or lease for very little the store front display space to advertise other businesses that are up and running in OTR.  This supports other businesses of OTR or even the CBD and gives the appearance to people walking or driving by that there is activity, even in a non active space.

 

The chamber could even spearhead this by doing full window sized posters that promote the businesses and have lease and contact information for each space as well.  This would help the chamber as well in getting their name out there.  Gateway needs to be doing this also especially as more and more space comes available.  It gives a different impression of supply to those who will eventually demand.

Main St. Update....

 

The shots were fired at 13th at Broadway and the confrontation with the police happened near Pitifuls, but had nothing to do with Pitifuls.  One of the suspects approached a police officer with hands in pocket and refused to remove them so a warning shot was fired.  2 other suspects involved in the first incident escaped.

I almost wonder if OTR wouldn't be better off moving away from the clubs and getting more retail and restaurants and letting the Banks grab the club energy. I imagine (though don't know) that organized crime in Cincy sees OTR in ways that posters on UO don't and those folks find the clubs in OTR a good place to hang out.

Then we are back to the question, what else do you fit into a space like Red, Ocho, or The Exchange that are huge spaces with existing liquor lic. on them?  I hear people all the time that should no better that we can put a grocery store in the space, but when you look at the specifics of the space, the parking and as hohum said the loading docs just aren't there and no grocer would consider it and I think that is demonstrated by the fact no grocer is or has considered it.  I am of the mindset that we can work with what we have but within a different framework, a different way of thinking when it comes to filling the spaces and that would eventually effect the associated problems and have remedies if and when they do happen.  In my opinion, it starts with the landlords.

Red cheetah has a loading dock in the back and plenty of parking across the street for a grocery store. I like that idea.  I am for more residential in that area of OTR Big spaces = big warehouse style lofts.

One other thing that is an interim step in what we have been talking about about vacancies that also is a "mall" concept is a zero vacant store front policy.  Either give away or lease for very little the store front display space to advertise other businesses that are up and running in OTR.  This supports other businesses of OTR or even the CBD and gives the appearance to people walking or driving by that there is activity, even in a non active space.

 

The chamber could even spearhead this by doing full window sized posters that promote the businesses and have lease and contact information for each space as well.  This would help the chamber as well in getting their name out there.  Gateway needs to be doing this also especially as more and more space comes available.  It gives a different impression of supply to those who will eventually demand.

 

 

That's a great idea.  Nothing is more depressing than an empty storefront, and getting those filled would make the area seem safer and more vibrant.

Max,

parking down the street for a grocery store that is not owned by the the grocery store?  If it was all part of the deal, then perhaps and adjacent lot would be acceptable but it is not.  I am not saying it isn't acceptable to me to pay for parking everytime I went to the grocery, but I am saying that the grocery itself would balk.  I will have to look at the dock, can you get a 52' trailer in there?  Also you have frontage to a side street.  If I put some thought into it I can give many more reasons but the proof is in the fact that no grocer is considering it.  But in a year from now, we will readdress this and I may be proven to be wrong, but we will see.

 

Jimmy James,

These really aren't my ideas.  The only original thing about it is the application to Main St but this is done everyday and is done very successfully.  We should adopt some of these practices and perhaps then we will get some of the same results.

^ Well, regardless of who originated the idea, it would do wonders for that street.

I agree.  It isn't rocket surgery.  Main just needs some structure....a plan.

Your right if clubs are kept being pushed for the area a grocery store would not work there.  I  wouldn't shop there anyway because I shop at Findlay market. No matter, I can't really see that area of OTR thriving with clubs. I say scratch the "entertainment designation" completely. and let it grow organically like 13th and main North

Your right if clubs are kept being pushed for the area a grocery store would not work there.

If we stop pushing, you may not want what grows organically because it could go in any direction.  It could become plasma centers, temp agencies, homeless showers, store front churches, quick stop shops like Jordans, or just empty store fronts.  For the past decade this is what has grown organically on Main and that is much different from the previous decade when an entertainment dist was being pushed.  Without some framework to work in it will be a crap shoot.  Main is to important to leave to chance.

 

I am not pushing for anything in the club red location.  Kathleen Norris is pushing for a grocery store.  My point is, lets revisit this discussion in one year, without any influence from me, and see what goes into the space.  I would love to see a grocer, but would a grocer be willing?  I say no but in 1 year who knows, perhaps I will be proven wrong.  There is a difference between simply wanting something and it making sence for both parties involved.  It makes perfect sense for you and I but what grocer does it work for?  If you can answer that then I will be the first to put in the call.

 

I still say that by focusing only on the tenant, you are bypassing a part of the equation that is vital, the landlord.  Lets deal with them first and create of structure of stability and uniformity, then we can focus on the tenants based on an agreed upon mix.  To simply say I want a ________ without taking into consideration the whole, we are band-aiding an area that is on life support.  Lets fix the underlying problems and deficiencies.

If only The Exchange could be considered a real club.

For those that haven't heard, Outside will be opening on the 29th!!! Hurray for retailers in the Q!!!

^ gardening store, right?  Sorry, don't remember

If only The Exchange could be considered a real club.

 

The Disease Exchange is more like it. It's a shame you can't have a dance-centric club without riff-raff, but that tends to be the case. I'd much prefer a grocery store over a dance club. Especially in that location; that would be awesome!