Lunging at you, umm, that is scary.  Sorry to hear about that.  And when there are confrontations on the street, well that is also scary (for anyone) and I would certainly avoid it, by all means.  Anyhow, so long as there is a reasonable balance struck, I think there are proactive ways to deal with these issues.

 

I have seen street long loitering bans, and I can't stand how they are enforced (a sad sight to see the day when the police come and ticket everyone on that random day)

 

Michael, I am guessing you've looked into good ways to deal with "problem loitering" as they have been implemented elsewhere.  Is there any creative mechanism that you have seen that other cities have put into good use?  Personally, I think the way Kaldi's has dealt with people who loiter in front of their establishment is admirable -- they have a pretty decent repore with all of the local regulars, and can talk to them reasonably and they usually move on...  But this requires a fairly strong proactive stance from the business owner, and there has to be a way that better utilizes both the private and public means to this end.  What do the businesses have to say about the issue?

just imagine if you lived in north jersey

 

Personally, I think the way Kaldi's has dealt with people who loiter in front of their establishment is admirable -- they have a pretty decent repore with all of the local regulars, and can talk to them reasonably and they usually move on...  But this requires a fairly strong proactive stance from the business owner, and there has to be a way that better utilizes both the private and public means to this end.  What do the businesses have to say about the issue?

 

the smoking ban helps with this

Is there a law on loitering?  If so, what are the details and fines?  It seems a sidewalk would be public city property and anyone has a right to be on it.  When does the sidewalk in front of a business become their property....hmm, my wheels are turning.  This is an issue, and I would like to see how others suggest dealing with it. 

Men and women definitely have different perspectives on safety.  There are things that concern me that my husband doesn't even think about.

 

The longer I live in the area, the more comfortable I feel.  This is probably true anytime someone moves into a "new" neighborhood.

 

 

I don't know what Cincinnati's loitering ordinance looks like, I am sure that they have one... Where I have seen such large bans enforced was in an area where the property owners actually "own" the sideway, and the city has an easment over the property.  This way it is the "owner's" responsibility to take care of the sidewalk.  Some loitering ordinances are restricted to the entry ways to businesses.

 

Now I am curious, and I will have to look up what the law is here...

 

edit - actually, I bet I know someone who would know, I'll just ask him...

 

<-- lazy law student

the smoking ban helps with this

 

To a degree, it also brings the pan handlers a calling...

Michael, I am guessing you've looked into good ways to deal with "problem loitering" as they have been implemented elsewhere.  Is there any creative mechanism that you have seen that other cities have put into good use?

We have looked at best practices as it relates to panhandling, which like you said, is similar to panhandling as they to loiter in one place to panhandle.  Columbus Special Improvement Districts, Capital City and the Discovery SID both use their ambassadors to help disrupt loitering, panhandling, and even some of the criminal activity that is associated with this.  There are two types of ambassadors, clean amb. and safe amb. (we primarily use the clean here in Cinti.) but the safe ambassadors will do things such as simply walk with a group of females or a single female (guys to if need be) through an area where they may feal unsafe. (Main St could be posted in places like Sycamore near parking lots and escort to and from rest., bars and stores)  Another thing that they do is stand close to panhandlers and pass out literature that directs those who may feel intimidated into giving an aggressive panhandler money to give to organizations that help the poor through food and shelter and then tries to put that panhandler in touch with a on staff social worker that gets them the help they truly need.

 

The ambassadors vs only more police also gives a different perception to an area.  If you drive down a street and it looks like a police state, you have to wonder why.  If you see a bunch of people in OTR Ambassador shirts then the perception changes yet you get many of the same results as we will try and do the same as DCI and get them police radios so that they have a direct line of communication for added enforcement if needed. 

 

The loitering problem is both the cause and affect of much of the litter that you see on the streets also.  If added attention can be paid to making sure that areas look better kept then this really goes a long way in discouraging people from doing a lot of the activities like we are talking about.  If OTR, or anywhere, looks like no one cares about the community, then those who are seeking anonymity in their activities will also believe that no one will care what they are doing.

We are working very hard to get the SID up and running but we are probably still about 18 months out.  In the mean time it may be possible to morph our Citizen's on Patrol group, or the creation of a whole new group, into a volunteer OTR Ambassador program until we can get the funds to pay for Brantley Services which is many thousands of dollars.    What are your thoughts on a volunteer amb. program?

I think volunteer embassadors program could work quite well as a stopgap measure.  It may be hard to sustain long term, but could work very well in the short term...

 

What does everyone else think about volunteer embassadors? 

The funny thing is people say we need a grocery store downtown.  Well, when you get the streetcar in and the area gets nicer and nicer...suddenly it's presto! we have a fairly nice grocery store thats easy to get to.  I do still think we need one at 5th and Race.  That's a shame.  Psshshhhhhh put a Tower Records there or something...ANYTHING!

Love the idea of the volunteer ambassador program.  By making it volunteer, you really get the people who want change, and are willing to invest their time in it.  I think it will give outsiders and suburbanites the impression that we are community.  Sign me up! 

 

The litter is definitely an eyesore.  I can only pick up so much when I walk down the street.  That issue stems from people lacking pride in their neighborhood.  You wouldn't throw trash in your car if it was your prized possession.  Why don't people see their neighborhood like that?

UPenn used safety ambassadors in West Philly extensively. Literally on every street corner was a guy (nearly always African-American) in a bright yellow jacket just standing there with a walkie-talkie. It did make you feel safer at night. The college neighborhood near Penn quickly turns dangerous as it heads toward on of the nastiest ghettoes in America at 54th Street (Penn is at 40th Street). They started it after a few brutal rapes and murders of Penn students.

MrsAWeeks, those people could care less about the nighborhood.  They aren't there to "live"....they have other things on their minds.

Whats up with the corner of 12th and Race? Seems like a very unsafe pocket of OTR?  Am I wrong on this>  Any way t clean it up a bit more? Maybe closing that bar somehow?

The Clyffside to break ground on $3M condo renovation Friday

BY KEVIN LEMASTER | SOAPBOX CINCINNATI

April 8, 2008

 

*Image and external links with article link above

 

OVER-THE-RHINE - The $3 million renovation of the former Clyffside Brewery will begin Friday afternoon in the Brewery District in Over-the-Rhine.

 

The Brewery District Community Urban Redevelopment Corporation (BDCURC), Clyffside Development Company and Comey & Shepherd plan a 3 PM public groundbreaking for The Clyffside, a 19-unit townhome and industrial loft project at 244 W McMicken Avenue.

 

The units will include luxury finishes, rooftop terraces, decks with city views and garage parking, all for between $124,900 and $229,900.

 

At the groundbreaking, GBBN Architects will make available renderings of changes to the buildings, which date from 1845 and 1887.

 

Afterwards, an open house reception will allow the public a rare peek at the interiors.

 

The Clyffside will be the Brewery District's second major residential project, following 2005's successful City Lofts on Dunlap at 1908 Dunlap Street.

 

Steven Hampton, executive director of the BDCURC, says that the groundbreaking is a good way to showcase the neighborhood's possibilities.

 

"It shows that there's a market there - we've had a good response already," he says.  "And it's an opportunity to show why we need to move forward with the streetcar.  The hillside has such great potential for single-family infill, all accessible by the streetcar line."

 

The developers hope to have the project completed by this fall.

 

Immediately preceding the groundbreaking, an Ohio Historical Marker paying homage to the area's brewing heritage will be unveiled in front of Hanna Park at W McMicken Avenue and Dunlap Street.

Love the idea of the volunteer ambassador program.  By making it volunteer, you really get the people who want change, and are willing to invest their time in it.  I think it will give outsiders and suburbanites the impression that we are community.  Sign me up!

 

I agree that this would help attract some of the most enthusiastic OTR supporters to be our ambassadors.  I have been giving some thought to the structure of the program and we can go two ways.  One, we could follow the Citizens on Patrol model and put together teams of three or more to go out on specific days for a specific amount of time, say 2-3 hours.  Or second, we could simply get shirts out to anyone who will wear them while they are out in OTR and just approach anyone who may need help or directions.  I am leaning more towards the unstructured version as I hope we could get greater participation.  What are your thoughts.

 

 

Whats up with the corner of 12th and Race? Seems like a very unsafe pocket of OTR?  Am I wrong on this>  Any way t clean it up a bit more? Maybe closing that bar somehow?

That is the 1132 Bar and it has been the topic of many conversations here lately.  Places like this, and Jordans that just moved into the Circle Mart location plus the new Cricket Store on Main all pose a challenge to us but as the surrounding buildings become developed and occupied it becomes harder and harder for all of them to operate, so if we can't shut them down sooner, they will be closed later but it is inevitable.  Martins Bar on McMicken has also just been challenged on their liquor lic. so watch that one in the near term to possibly shut down.

My perception is that two things are happening around the 1132 Bar lately. 

 

Firstly, since the smoking ban, all the smokers now stand outside while their drinks sit on the bar inside.  This crowds the corner and since it is a bar that has the lowest drink prices in the city, the crowd looks like a crowd that wants cheap drinks, and probably has already consumed one or two before coming out for their smoke.

 

Secondly, there is an unrelated crowd of drug dealers that is hanging out a lot on 12th Street and by the Lord's Gym.  The businesses that are here are not to blame for this, but for someone passing by, the two crowds are indistinguishable.

^1132 and the ones I mentioned above are destination problems.  In that I mean that each draws all of the negative elements including public intoxication, drug sales and buys, loitering, and all of the perceptions that goes along with each of those realities into one concentrated place.  If we can close the destinations it doesn't get rid of the people causing the problem, but at least it disperses it.

 

Take each of the problem areas in OTR right now.  Corner of 12 and Race, Corner of E. Clifton and Lang, Corner of 12 and Main, Corner of McMicken and Walnut, and formerly on Vine and I am going to say 15th. First you have 1132 Bar, Chiefs, Jordans, Martin's Bar, Cricket Store (which has now moved to Main and 14th).  There is a direct correlation between the crime and the business that enables the crime by way of providing a destination and safehaven.

 

Why aren't the folks from Lord's Gym "saving"  the drug dealers? Maybe they're waiting until they move to CityLink to start fixing people.

I noticed that the ghetto store next to Kroger's on Vine is closed.  My guess is they sold to 3CDC but maybe they just got shut down for illegal activities.

Law enforcement needs to do a clean sweep of ALL those businesses with the clusters of people standing outside.  They all probably have owners or workers that deal drugs or help in the dealings some way, and since the street cleaners, cops, and pedestrians are petrified in walking down there...it will never be cleaned.  3CDC is doing a great job downtown and hopefully that Gateway Quarter and renovations will keep moving farther and farther down that street.  There are some super cool looking vacant storefronts there that would be great for businesses to move in.  Once that happens then what do we have?...a cool neighborhood emerging WITH a grocery store;)

I think that the extent to which the people many are seeing are directly dealing drugs is probably low.  If there are 12 men on the street, most likely only 1 or 2 are actually dealing; the others are just probably hanging out, which is still not good.

Law enforcement needs to do a clean sweep of ALL those businesses with the clusters of people standing outside.

 

I'm not a cop, nor am I a lawyer, but this seems like something 1) someone in the police department has already considered or done; and 2) completely illegal.  Instead of this sort of action, which strikes me as a bit over the top, why not just try and get police to walk the beat again?

I haven't piped in on this topic in a few, but I really want to stress that we shouldn't be making broad over generalizations here.  If you have to use the word "probably" followed by illegal activity when referring to a large group, its "probably" a bit over the top.

 

Clean sweep is not the answer (nor would it likely be legal, etc)  Beat cops help, but to an extent street dealers already know how to work around beat cops, so it doesn't really completely address the issue.  Anyhow, just my 2c, be careful when painting with broad strokes, it often does more harm than good and just reinforces perceptions which may or may not be reality.

Just had a shooting at Woodward and Yukon next to the 1300 block of Main.  If we could get buy in from the building owners then we could on one hand create an appropriate tenant mix and on the other hand help the building owner find the tenants and create a win win without ever getting to this point.  But we need the buy in.  This sumer we will make an incredibly strong push to stop the problems before they ever become a problem.  We have Cricket stores at Main, Vine, and another one coming to Liberty.  How many do we need in a community?  And that is not the only problem store.

The Volunteer Ambassador program is being put together now.  Anyone interested in learning more, email [email protected].

Just had a shooting at Woodward and Yukon next to the 1300 block of Main.  If we could get buy in from the building owners then we could on one hand create an appropriate tenant mix and on the other hand help the building owner find the tenants and create a win win without ever getting to this point.  But we need the buy in.  This sumer we will make an incredibly strong push to stop the problems before they ever become a problem.  We have Cricket stores at Main, Vine, and another one coming to Liberty.  How many do we need in a community?  And that is not the only problem store.

 

Do those cricket stores have odd hours?? I know of a few clothing and cell phone stores in places like Price Hill and Short Vine that have been known to do that. I don't know who buys clothing at 2am! Obvious fronts for drugs. Police should pay attention to stuff like that.

I was really happy to see all the pedestrian traffic in OTR last Saturday. I think a lot of it had to do with the Prohibition Resistance Tour. I walked down Vine Street from McMicken to Central Parkway, and it felt safe because of all the activity. If only there could be activities like this one a bit more often... I'm sure it will come with time.

I went on the Subway tour last weekend.  We met at Media Bridges at Race and Central Parkway.  I bet that was part of the group you saw.  Seeing a partial built subway station underground makes you wonder how Cincinnati would be different if it was successfully implemented.  The possibility of a streetcar in Cincinnati was mentioned in the slide show presentation.  The tone of it was neither positive nor negative. 

I haven't posted on here in awhile but wanted to spread the word about efforts underway to save the Meiners Building at 1500 Vine. The building has been slated for emergency demolition, and, like so many others, will quietly be turned to rubble in the next two weeks unless something is done. I know there are diverging opinions about the importance of saving various buildings in OTR....but this one, I believe, is an easier sell on the preservation side. If you're unsure, drive by the intersection of 15th and Vine and observe the 5-storey building with the stone facade on the NE corner.

 

What we're trying to do is raise money to demonstrate some level of private financial committment to saving the building. This financial committment is critical to leveraging $100,000 the City has available for restoration, and another $150,000 that 3CDC has for potential use on the building. If you're interested in helping, please check out www.pledgebank.com/Over-the-Rhine, or www.pledgebank.com/1500Vine  (different pledge levels)

 

There is much more detail about this that I can get into if people have specific questions. Thanks much, and please pass on the word.

 

 

This is a good initiative. Count me in.

I'm in.

What are they building in place of that old yellow carryout building that has already been demolished?

trideca lofts

jerome and kendall, thanks. can you guys pass this on to anyone else who might be willing to help? much appreciated

I haven't posted on here in awhile but wanted to spread the word about efforts underway to save the Meiners Building at 1500 Vine. The building has been slated for emergency demolition, and, like so many others, will quietly be turned to rubble in the next two weeks unless something is done. I know there are diverging opinions about the importance of saving various buildings in OTR....but this one, I believe, is an easier sell on the preservation side. If you're unsure, drive by the intersection of 15th and Vine and observe the 5-storey building with the stone facade on the NE corner.

 

What we're trying to do is raise money to demonstrate some level of private financial committment to saving the building. This financial committment is critical to leveraging $100,000 the City has available for restoration, and another $150,000 that 3CDC has for potential use on the building. If you're interested in helping, please check out www.pledgebank.com/Over-the-Rhine, or www.pledgebank.com/1500Vine  (different pledge levels)

 

There is much more detail about this that I can get into if people have specific questions. Thanks much, and please pass on the word.

LOL! funny article! don't let this get into too many minds of OTR residents, or we'll have more riots involving them destroying their own neighborhood.  Well actually that can help with demolition of some of the buildings LOL!!    oh man.

dglenn- Is this the building?

What are they building in place of that old yellow carryout building that has already been demolished?

I like the see through tree

Just had a shooting at Woodward and Yukon next to the 1300 block of Main.  If we could get buy in from the building owners then we could on one hand create an appropriate tenant mix and on the other hand help the building owner find the tenants and create a win win without ever getting to this point.  But we need the buy in.  This sumer we will make an incredibly strong push to stop the problems before they ever become a problem.  We have Cricket stores at Main, Vine, and another one coming to Liberty.  How many do we need in a community?  And that is not the only problem store.

 

Do those cricket stores have odd hours?? I know of a few clothing and cell phone stores in places like Price Hill and Short Vine that have been known to do that. I don't know who buys clothing at 2am! Obvious fronts for drugs. Police should pay attention to stuff like that.

 

I could not have said it better myself...although I'd imagine that there would have to be some serious undercover work to take down any of these business. Short Vine is absolutely filled with these places...I think there are at least 2 or 3 cell phone places and maybe 3 "clothing" stores. I can't speak for OTR because I do not know what the situation is down there, but I can say that I seriously hope once the renewal of Short Vine happens with Bogart's expansion and a new Kroger plaza, higher rents will drive these people out. thats really the only solution I can see.

Higher rent is not the total solution.  Quality tenants is.  A landlord has the ability to pick and choose their tenant mix and set standards and criteria through the lease that should prevent this.  Unfortunately, in depressed areas, landlords look to anyone who is willing to fill a space so long as they are paying a rent.  This in the long term, as more and more landlords in a given area do this destroys the area and pulls their property value down and so begins the spiral.  But it can be reversed.

Any solution that involves having the problem business or tenant move out is most likely not a solution at all.  Higher rents will cause these stores to move to other locations where there is lower rent and take the issues that go with the business along for the ride.  Look at Price Hill, Covedale, and Westwood.  Were these neighborhoods basically safe and free of drug related crimes 25 years ago?  Yes they were.  25 years ago OTR and some other locations had large amounts of crime that was the result of drug activity. 

 

The reason that OTR is safer these days and has less crime is because the people creating many of the problems have moved to other neighborhoods.  Drugs = crime.  Unless you do something to lessen the issue of drug dependency then nothing has been accomplished, the dealers simply move to a new address.  Other urban areas are experiencing similar situations.  Drug sales have moved from the inner city to older towns near the urban core and to suburban areas.  Again, the problem has not been solved, gentrification will simply cause the drug sales/prostitution/burglary/robbery/theft and violence to become somebody else's problem.  What is one neighborhoods gain is another's loss.

 

Arresting dealers and users does not solve the problem, it merely overcrowds our courts and prison system.  Only drug treatment can create a solution or you can simply give the drugs away (no profit motive for the dealers, no need for the users to steal to support their habit).  I know already, these are ideas that most folks think are ridiculous.....

dglenn- Is this the building?

yes

^Or you can scoop all of them up and put them on an uninhabited island so they become nature's problem lol.  (got to love No Escape)

I posted pictures from inside the Clyffside building that is now being renovated into 19 units ranging from the mid-100's to the mid-200's.  You can find those pictures here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,15853.0.html

^Or you can scoop all of them up and put them on an uninhabited island so they become nature's problem lol.  (got to love No Escape)

Once man invited alcohol there have been people with substance abuse issues.  Same thing since us humans discovered what can happen with some poppies, a little processing, and a hookah.  There were always be people with drug and alcohol addictions.  This problem will never go away.  I believe the social and economic burden on society as a whole would be much smaller if drugs were free.

 

I posted pictures from inside the Clyffside building that is now being renovated into 19 units ranging from the mid-100's to the mid-200's.  You can find those pictures here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,15853.0.html

Really enjoyed the photos.  I was tempted to take that tour but too many irons in the fire last weekend.  One of these days I'm going to convince my wife that we should live in Cincinnati.  My guess is that event will happen the day I'm moved into a nursing facility.    :-o

Again, the problem has not been solved, gentrification will simply cause the drug sales/prostitution/burglary/robbery/theft and violence to become somebody else's problem.  What is one neighborhoods gain is another's loss.

 

It is the responsibility of each person, each street, each neighborhood to make that place the best that it can be.  OTR is not in the business of dealing with the rehabilitation of people or to solve all of societies ills (although you would think it was with 108 social services in 110 blocks).  It is to provide a safe and clean environment to its residents to live, work and play.  I hear this all the time that just by moving them you aren't fixing the problem...since when did someones inablility to find a job or unwillingness to break a heroin addiction fall solely on the shoulders of OTR?  The rest of the city has pushed these people into a community of containment, so we are now simply releasing them from that defacto prison that has been built for them over the past 40 years and we will do so unapologetically.

 

To all of the neighborhoods who are "loosing" because of our efforts to clean our community, I say STEP UP! We are and why should we be faulted for the hard work and dedication of people who feel that one of the places that exist on the 10 most endangered historical places deserves better.  We will do more, push harder, gain more ground day after day, year after year until OTR is THEE place that people want to live, not forced to live. 

Yeah that's it. Better picture here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,15846.new.html#new

 

Important Update -- Channel 9 is doing a story on the building tonight. It will run between 5:30 and 6:00, and will be posted online after 9. Please check it out and refer as many folks as you can to it.

 

Finally, if anyone is able to help connect us to additional forums/listservs with relevant viewership, that would be extremely helpful. There are innumerable preservation groups across the country that maintain ongoing dialogues and might be willing to make the smaller $10 pledge, but contact info is needed for these groups.

Man, I will hate to see this come down!