Care to fill the rest of us lowly UOers in on this neighborhood design insider meaning of proportion?

 

You are more than welcome to take what I said as an insult.  But if you want to take it as I intended, then reread what I typed with the understanding that I find it interesting how people of different backgrounds view the same thing.  In this case, I was noting the difference between those with planning backgrounds vs. those with architectural backgrounds. 

 

If it isn't obvious... I wouldn't be here if I thought it was "lowly."

 

In all honesty I didn't take it as an insult.  It just came across in an authoritative type way.  I take particular interest because you said that people in your industry (the same industry I'm in along with several others on here).  You said it takes on a different meaning and that the architectural meaning was not the one you were getting at...so I must assume your "proportional mess" comment was about something neighborhood design related.  I'm just interested to hear the details of your thoughts.

 

This is a great shot. I love the modern flair they've given the rooftop terrace railing. When people are having parties up there it will really spill out onto the street and liven things up.

 

The railing angles outward, so I'm concerned that it literally will spill out (over the top) and onto the street!!!

 

Otherwise, I like the design.  Is it out of proportion?  Maybe.  But I think it's an appropriate transition between the building adjacent to it and the one across the street in that photo.

 

Sometimes there's something to be said for being overtly modern (not necessarily architecturally "modern," but age-wise) when you're revitalizing a neighborhood.  The passer-bys will note that it is obviously new construction amongst revitalized historic buildings.  I think this alone will help add a sense of vibrancy, as well as give buyers options.  Think about it - the more options you provide buyers, the more likely you are to bring a wide cross-section in.  Plus, with new construction that far north, you could be more likely to get people up that way.

The handrail on the roof is a problem for me as well.  I worked on a proposal for a project that was a renovation of a contributing structure to the historic district, with a huge flat roof and a beautiful view.  Being a historic building, the handrail for an accessable roof couldn't be visible from the street, so we set it back about 6' and hid it from the line of sight.  This is something I'd like to see on more of these roof decks, because the handrail really puts it out of context.  Making a parapet into a handrail works too, which I have seen done in a few places.

 

From a pure design standpoint it probably looks better to hide/setback the handrails on rooftop decks, but I like it here.  Its a good idea to call attention to the rooftop deck feature.  It sends a not-so-subtle message to pedestrians that this is a fun, young neighborhood where people party on their rooftop decks.  It doesnt hurt to hit passerbys over the head with this message even if it slightly detracts from the aesthetics of the building.

 

 

Is this Trinity Flats?

^Yes.

In all honesty I didn't take it as an insult.  It just came across in an authoritative type way.  I take particular interest because you said that people in your industry (the same industry I'm in along with several others on here).  You said it takes on a different meaning and that the architectural meaning was not the one you were getting at...so I must assume your "proportional mess" comment was about something neighborhood design related.  I'm just interested to hear the details of your thoughts.

 

The architectural meaning is the one I was getting at, sorry for the confusion.  The "proportional mess" comment comes from spending countless hours of my lifetime working on building elevations.  I am not neccessarily an authority, just aware.  But like I said before, I am reserving final judgement for completion.

I agree that the turret is an unusual proportion if you look at the building in isolation. However, if you consider the entire streetwall, the proportion seems quite good.

 

Anyway, I like it a lot. I'm very much a neo-traditionalist, however, I'm still happy to see a building with contemporary features since the "bones" of the structure fit in with the historical context surrounding it.

I ask people who their favorite Beach Boy was.  They think The Beach Boys were some kind of gang that I'm affiliated with. 

^THAT is funny...

It doesnt hurt to hit passerbys over the head with this message

 

Or a beer bottle off the roof...

Hmmm.  You say awesome, I say a proportion travesty.  It is a nice contemporary addition to a histroic neighborhood, with nice features, but far from awesome.

 

The fenestration is consistent with it's surroundings. Height is appropriate. It's brick. The only thing I can see people not liking is the turret, but since it's on a street corner I think it's appropriate. Great addition to Vine.

 

Thank you. I agree completely.

 

I think objective standards of consistency are important but I think it's unrealistic to expect OTR to be stuck in time in its physical fabric. People with the historic preservation mindset tend to view time as a source of impurity. There's some modern materials and ideas used and people are against it.

 

The fact is, OTR's demographics are changing. The culture of OTR is changing. Some buildings have to be demolished and replaced. YPs like to party on roof decks and balconies and that's who is moving to OTR. Imagine if all of those turrets were enclosed and used as work spaces, which is a modern trend that a certain target market loves - architecture critics would still bad mouth it for looking out of context despite its functionality and appeal to a certain group.

 

I don't see what the big deal is anyway. It looks a bit art deco to me and it might not be common in OTR but you see similar styles elsewhere in Cincinnati.

 

Let the neighborhood mutate physically. It isn't THAT drastic of a change but it's a nice little surprise that breaks the monotony somewhat. Imo that's what makes a great neighborhood. Maintaining the character through scale and primary building materials but letting it evolve/mutate in small ways.

What do you guys think about this OTR "project?"

 

---

 

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090323/NEWS0108/903240304

 

City wants stimulus for OTR crime

 

Cincinnati City Council may restore the $100,000 it cut in December from an Over-the-Rhine gun and drug elimination program, thanks to the federal economic stimulus package.

 

 

Council member Leslie Ghiz introduced a motion that council is expected to vote on Wednesday committing $100,000 this year and $100,000 next year from the $3.4 million in Community Development Block Grant money the city expects from the federal economic stimulus package passed by Congress last month.

 

Click link for rest of article.

 

 

It seems not much money at all, yet a lot of reward.  Every criminal taken off the street, every illegally owned gun siezed, and every illegal drug confiscated will lead to an even better OTR, in my opinion.

True, but I wonder how many of those 6,600 are released back onto the streets. I'm not sure how long the program has been in effect, but remember that OTR's population is around 7,000, so either the statistics are from a decade or so, or we are getting in new criminals or seeing re-runs.

i like the idea of using this new money for crime prevention and as a secondary tool for economic progress, but god knows people will bitch about using so-called "stimulus" money for crime prevention when they fail to explore the longevity of the plan

Gateway III funding agreement to be amended

http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2009/03/gateway-iii-funding-agreement-to-be.html

 

I went Incredible Creations Barber and Salon today in GQ.  I have to say, I WILL be a repeat customer.  Everyone was friendly and the barber who trimmed my hair did a fantastic job.  It had been a long time since I had anyone go to such detail on making sure my cut was perfect.  At $20.00 it was well worth it. 

I went there once, and while the service was great, I did not think it warranted the full $20. I found just as good of a haircut at Master Clips of all places in Newport for $12. I guess if you want something with more pizazz, then Creations is the way to go.

^ I have gone to Great Clips and Supercuts many times.  Both places have failed repeatedly to give me a decent haircut at $12.00.  Some have suggested other places, but I have a hard time justifying paying $25-30 (or more in some cases) for a men's haircut.  I am very willing to pay $20.00 for great service and a good haircut.  I also liked the fact I can walk to Incredible Creations to get my haircut.  I have to drive to get to Great Clips.

 

^ And an extra $8 is well worth supporting a business that integrates itself into the urban fabric instead of integrating itself into a strip mall.

Eh, I suppose it depends on personal preference. I support local businesses as much as I can -- I pay a little extra, for instance, to shop at Park+Vine, but it is one block from my apartment so I save in gas from having to travel out to say, Whole Foods. But for the hair cut that I need, I find it more cost effective and just as good to travel out 5 minutes to another location.

 

I'm not sure why they are charging that much extra for the same service that I received in Lexington at a local stylist. She owned her building, was paying her mortgage, but was charging $12 for the basic haircut that would cost $20 in Creations. I don't think it is the lease, as they are given a discount until they are "on their feet," so I assume it is more with the employee costs.

Parents get sold on OTR

By Lisa Bernard-Kuhn • [email protected] • April 3, 2009

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090403/BIZ01/904030336

 

OVER-THE-RHINE - These days, Jonathan Wood's mother raves about her son's second-floor condo in Over-the-Rhine's growing Gateway Quarter.

 

"It's just amazing seeing those hardwood floors, the brick walls - the design," says Ann Wood Schlesinger, an Anderson Township native. "They've taken what had been a fairly modest space and finished it to the hilt."

^ Great article.  I wish they would do a story like this every week.

If we can turn OTR in the next great family neighborhood for the next decade, then Cincinnati will have succeeded beyond my wildest expectations - I expected a transition to yuppie but going family is a much harder nut to crack.

I've been thinking about that and about gentrification, and I think that the key is to make a real concerted effort to get the folks who want to live an urban lifestyle to move to these neighborhoods while the state makes a real effort to keep a certain amount of folks living there in the neighborhood.  Break up concentrated poverty by bringing the wealthier in seems like the only way it will be feasible, rather than trying to disperse the poor out.

The momentum is finally here.  Right now it's a simple snowball effect that won't stop any time soon.  I think the one thing that's needed to really help it take off, even more so than the streetcar, scpa and condos is that park.  Once that park gets finished then the number of new residents should sky rocket.  Families love taking kids to parks and having one right in OTR is key.

^I wish the snowball effect were true, but all it takes is another three days of riots, and you can throw all of it away.  That said, I don't think we're anywhere near where we were in 2001, so I'm not worried about that - and the city learned a lot from that experience, and hopefully would keep things from getting that crazy again - but still, it wouldn't take much to destroy everything again...

 

Unfortunately parents don't like parading their kids by the 3 dozen homeless who currently hang out in that park.  As long as the drop inn center and the like stay where they're at, those poor folks will keep hanging out in the park.

 

Dispersing the social services that are concentrated in OTR should be at the top of the city's list. IMHO, OTR will never reach it's true potential as long as they are there.

Unfortunately parents don't like parading their kids by the 3 dozen homeless who currently hang out in that park. As long as the drop inn center and the like stay where they're at, those poor folks will keep hanging out in the park.

 

Dispersing the social services that are concentrated in OTR should be at the top of the city's list. IMHO, OTR will never reach it's true potential as long as they are there.

 

Agreed. 3CDC and other developers can pour however much money they want into OTR but until a certain segment of the population stops using every corner, storefront, step and bench into their personal loitering space, we're not getting all the way there.

 

Somebody made some comment on the Enquirer board about how its only safe to walk south from the Gateway district. I consider myself a a person thats pretty comfortable with urban areas, but I would absolutely agree. The northen part of Vine is pretty scary as far as the loitering goes, especially at night. A few weeks ago I had to actually stop my car because of some guys having a conversation in the middle of the street. wtf?

The loitering is down 90% from what it was 5 years ago.  In the years leading up to and following the riot, there were hundreds of people lining Vine at all hours.  But these people didn't even live in the neighborhood, as proven by the Sheriff's patrols. 

 

What's more the loitering started immediately north of Central Parkway.  Except for the Smitty's & Kroger's blocks, there's basically no loitering/street dealing happening south of Liberty.  And it's way down north of that point as well. 

I did not live in Cincinnati 5 years ago so I was unaware of how bad it was. I'm glad those days are over with. That being said, it's still pretty bad IMO. Bad enough that I would probably not yet buy a property in OTR, and like I said, I'm very comfortable with urban living. What I think this means is that the loitering that is there is pretty unacceptable to alot of people. If you are a YP moving from an area like West Chester or Mason, or even Clifton, riff raff on your street at all hours of the day and night is going to be a big turn off. Plain and simple.

Unfortunately parents don't like parading their kids by the 3 dozen homeless who currently hang out in that park. As long as the drop inn center and the like stay where they're at, those poor folks will keep hanging out in the park.

 

Dispersing the social services that are concentrated in OTR should be at the top of the city's list. IMHO, OTR will never reach it's true potential as long as they are there.

 

I couldnt agree more.  I realize that the city and 3cdc would be walking into a minefield if they made an aggressive attempt to move social services out of OTR, but they need to do it anyway.  It is absolutely crucial. 

 

The loitering is down 90% from what it was 5 years ago. In the years leading up to and following the riot, there were hundreds of people lining Vine at all hours. But these people didn't even live in the neighborhood, as proven by the Sheriff's patrols.

 

What's more the loitering started immediately north of Central Parkway. Except for the Smitty's & Kroger's blocks, there's basically no loitering/street dealing happening south of Liberty. And it's way down north of that point as well.  

 

You're totally right. Unfortunately, the loitering will have to be pushed toward almost zero to foster a mainstream investment market in a region like the Midwest.

The loitering is down 90% from what it was 5 years ago.  In the years leading up to and following the riot, there were hundreds of people lining Vine at all hours.  But these people didn't even live in the neighborhood, as proven by the Sheriff's patrols. 

 

What's more the loitering started immediately north of Central Parkway.  Except for the Smitty's & Kroger's blocks, there's basically no loitering/street dealing happening south of Liberty.  And it's way down north of that point as well. 

 

You're totally right. Unfortunately, the loitering will have to be pushed toward almost zero to foster a mainstream investment market in a region like the Midwest.

 

Agree with Jake & Civik!  The continuous improvement is really starting to accelerate EXPENENTIALLY now and articles by our local media CAN ONLY HELP CHANGE THAT 2001 MENTALITY.  Streetcars, SCPA, and all the 3CDC projects are helping tremendously!

 

And all this in the middle of a recession/depression.

Just imagine what things may be like if the economy starts to slowly tick upwards in the next year or two.

Agree with Jake & Civik! The continuous improvement is really starting to accelerate EXPENENTIALLY now and articles by our local media CAN ONLY HELP CHANGE THAT 2001 MENTALITY. Streetcars, SCPA, and all the 3CDC projects are helping tremendously! And all this in the middle of a recession/depression.

Just imagine what things may be like if the economy starts to slowly tick upwards in the next year or two.

 

We are selling more today than at any other point. That is both in total contracts and in dollar volume. The biggest changes for us will be when SCPA is completed, Washington Park goes under construction and the streetscaping is completed. But even now, the sales are still happening, the traffic is still coming, and Gateway has never been stronger.

 

I've been thinking about that and about gentrification, and I think that the key is to make a real concerted effort to get the folks who want to live an urban lifestyle to move to these neighborhoods while the state makes a real effort to keep a certain amount of folks living there in the neighborhood. Break up concentrated poverty by bringing the wealthier in seems like the only way it will be feasible, rather than trying to disperse the poor out.

The key is to allow anyone who wants to live in OTR a safe place to live. We are providing housing for all income ranges yet OTR seems to be having a problem keeping lower income people in its buildings because they want to live somewhere else because they had better options. We should provide the inventory, and we do, for anyone and everyone who wants to make OTR their home. The danger is making the "real effort" which traps certain people in OTR. Give them the inventory option, provide a safe and clean area and hopefully they will choose for themselves what is best for them and their family and that goes for any income.

 

The key is to allow anyone who wants to live in OTR a safe place to live.

 

Nobody is nearly as impacted by crime in OTR as the folks who live there, of all income levels.

 

Nobody is nearly as impacted by crime in OTR as the folks who live there, of all income levels.

I included as I too both live and work there and continue to invest more and more into OTR. From personal to professional, I can empathize with the impact of crime as well as relate to the improvements that we as a community have seen over the years. This is not the same OTR as it was 10 years ago, and not even the same OTR as it was 1 year ago and hopefully it will be an even better OTR 1 year and 10 years from now.

Holly, welcome and tell Michael some of us on UO miss his postings!

Michael is the one who is making me post on here.  He is better at this stuff than I am.

He was the voice of reason of all the OTR supporters!  Unfortunately its not good enough to believe in OTR, you have to do it the way they want!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

^I miss him too.

>streetscaping is completed.

 

Will they be burying utilities?  At the very least rebuilt sidewalks will do a lot. 

 

Incidentally the walls are going up on the new building at Vine & Mercer.

 

 

 

Your right riverviewer.  Ofcourse those riots were stupid because all of those morons trashed their own neighborhood and sent no message what so ever lol.  As OTR continues to improve, it should keep away all of the outsiders that made up 90% of criminal activity down there.  Yea if you compare 2001 to now, it's almost night and day.  I just can't wait to see it in 10 yrs.

Your right riverviewer.  Ofcourse those riots were stupid because all of those morons trashed their own neighborhood and sent no message what so ever lol.  As OTR continues to improve, it should keep away all of the outsiders that made up 90% of criminal activity down there.  Yea if you compare 2001 to now, it's almost night and day.  I just can't wait to see it in 10 yrs.

 

I don't know that I'd agree that they sent no message...I think everyone learned from that sad episode, and that we're better off today than we were in 2001 - not that it was worth it, mind you, but that in some ways, we're better for it.  But still, I'll never pay a fucking dime to anything Whoopi Goldberg is in any way associated with.

 

Gateway III funding agreement amended

http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2009/04/gateway-iii-funding-agreement-amended.html

 

An ordinance to amend the funding agreement for the third phase of 3CDC's Gateway Quarter project has been passed unanimously by Cincinnati City Council.

 

The amendment was necessary because some of the project's streetscape improvements, including the filling of basement encroachments on private property from the 1100 block to the 1300 block of Vine Street, are not eligible for tax increment financing (TIF) funds.

 

To cover the improvements, the City will amend the capital agreement to reduce the amount of housing rehabilitation funding by $300,000 and add $300,000 for the basement encroachment portion of the streetscape.

 

The TIF funding agreement will be amended to replace the $300,000 in housing rehabilitation funds lost in the capital agreement.

 

The total amount of funding in each agreement will not change.

 

Applications for building permits to block in the private foundations with masonry were filed last week.

 

Improvements also will include the burying of public utilities, new traffic signals, decorative street lighting, new sidewalks, new street trees, and new sign and meter poles.

 

This is the second time the funding agreement has been amended since being signed in December 2007.

 

The Gateway Quarter's first phase includes 108 new residential units and more than 15,000 square feet of retail space.

is there a plan of the streetscape improvements somewhere?

I was tipped off about some changes to Venice on Vine's exterior.  It does look like some new tile work at the base of the windows, a new awning and new sandwich board sign are now a part of its exterior decor.  Are these indeed new, and if so, does anyone know what helped pay for these upgrades?  They look great.

 

It also looks like work is being done on the building located in between Vine and Race on the north side of 12th Street...what's the deal there?

^I think you are referring to Tender Mercies rehab.  Building-Cincinnati.com had a summary of that project a while back.

Definitely some new exterior work at Venice on Vine. It really helps the place look permanent.

Venice on Vine...originally Heuck's Opera House in the 1900's, and later the "People's Theater."  Here's a good bit of history on that structure:

 

People's Theater “The play's the thing and Heuck's is the place." The People’s Theater building still stands in Over-the-Rhine at Vine and 13th Streets, though without its open tower.

 

Samuel Hannaford did interior renovation on the back of the People's Theater on 13th Street. The theater was run by Hubert Heuck, who was credited with perfecting the "Burlesque Wheel," a circuit of stock company theater houses for eight cities (Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Chicago, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Detroit, and Pittsburgh) in 1915.  According to his son Robert, Heuck could guarantee the acts and actors a 30 week season. Heuck had formed the earlier Empire Circuit to guarantee shows in many cities. 

 

The latest tenant in “the original Heuck’s Opera House,” is Venice on Vine, a restaurant that operates as an educational program to provide on-the-job training to inner-city residents. Venice on Vine Pizza is a not-for-profit business enterprise of Power Inspires Progress. The restaurant occupies what was the lobby and saloon of the entertainment complex.  Some of the decorative plasterwork has been preserved. Before Venice on Vine, Ernest’s Men’s Shop occupied the space for a number of years.

 

After Hubert Heuck took over the Coliseum at 1221 Vine Street, which ended its career in entertainment as the Rialto Theater, now a parking lot, he named it the New Heuck Opera House, and changed the name of his original theater to the People’s Theater. The People's specialized in “Varieties and Burlesque.”  The theater became famous for the acts it attracted. Boxing matches, horse opera, and “blood and thunder melodrama” brought in a stream of paying customers. Native Americans acts played there, as did Buffalo Bill Cody and wild Bill Hickock. 

 

“The People's Theater displayed on its posters such names as Maggie Cline, Sam Bernhard, Weber and Fields, Pat Rooney, Muldoon, Wheeler and Trainer, Hanlen and  Hart, Harrigan and Hart, Murry and Mack, Murphy and Shannon, Fields and Hanson, Mark Murphy, Niles, Evans, Bryant and Hoey, Billy Emerson, McIntyre and Heath, and the Panzer Brothers. W.C. Dunkenfield (later known as W.C. Fields) played in a touring vaude company here in 1898.” (Cincinnati, the Queen City, 1788-1912)

 

“...Buffalo Bill played The Last Shot, and James O'Neill, Rose Eyetinge and Sarah Bernhardt delighted one and all. ....it offered Lillian Russell, Joseph Jefferson, Bertha, the Sewing Machine Girl, and bang-up burlesque. In later years it gave O.O. McIntyre his education in “burleycue.” The show began, he reported, when the gallery bouncer rapped and yelled "Hats off!" Such old-time favorites as May Howard, Rose Sydell, Weber and Fields, and Billy Watson's Beef Trust held forth here, with all the tried and true routines - catchy music, bright costumes, generous nymphs, "whangs on the conk," and corny jokes. It was wonderful!" (The WPA Guide to Cincinnati, 1788-1943).

http://www.selfcraft.net/Hannaford//hanalon5.htm

I was tipped off about some changes to Venice on Vine's exterior.  It does look like some new tile work at the base of the windows, a new awning and new sandwich board sign are now a part of its exterior decor.  Are these indeed new, and if so, does anyone know what helped pay for these upgrades?  They look great.

 

It also looks like work is being done on the building located in between Vine and Race on the north side of 12th Street...what's the deal there?

 

Tipped off?  You make it sound so....underground, esp. considering the 'tipping off' happened on the phone yesterday.

 

Definitely some new exterior work at Venice on Vine. It really helps the place look permanent.

 

Yea, when I saw it yesterday, I immediately thought of you.  I knew you would be SO HAPPY.  You've been talking up that place and its need for place in the Q for what seems like an eternity.  Now maybe you can move on to something else.  :)