You really know Vine Street has turned a corner when the complaints are this minor.  Look back to the begining of this thread when there was only vacant storefronts for blocks on Vine.

The straight up the middle approach was a bold, risky, and expensive approach, but from what we are seeing with sales of both residential and commercial on this project, it is paying off. 

 

I have not lived in Cincinnati for a few years now after graduating from UC's planning program, but I can tentatively say that this is the death knell to the OTR as we knew it as a ghetto. There are too many properties being purchased and consolidated, and with the completion of Fountain Square, I would predict that Vine will gentrify up to Liberty in the next 5 years.

 

However I don't think the entire OTR district will "boom" so to speak. Cincinnati's housing absorption rate is not very fast. The OTR district has an enormous stock of buildings, way more than a 2-million-ish midwestern metro could absorb in even 10 years. Being optimistic, I would hope that OTR becomes a very vibrant restaurant and cultural district, fulfilling the dream of having a large, continuous flagship urban neighborhood that Gaslight Clifton, Northside and Mount Adams have attempted to be but couldn't-quite because of their limited size and geographic/topographic isolation.

 

I don't see OTR as becoming a true built-out 24 hour urban neighborhood for 15-20 more years. However, if things continue to go well for it, I think in that 20 year time frame the district has the potential to rival any in the midwest, if only because it is so completely intact. You simply cannot build today what OTR offers. In fact I think that a lot of people in Cincinnati's leadership can't quite visualize how dramatic this change will be. Because of the intact historic density, at an optimum population level it would be difficult to tell on the street if you were in Cincinnati or Chicago. All it will take is the patience to let Cincinnati's population fill it up.

 

I think what 3CDC is attempting to do by going up Vine is not so much providing a new "development beachhead" but attempting to use development as a "smart bomb" (forgive the insensitive analogy) to plow the blight right in half.

 

It's been just about 5 years. What do you think, Civvik?

The straight up the middle approach was a bold, risky, and expensive approach, but from what we are seeing with sales of both residential and commercial on this project, it is paying off. 

 

I have not lived in Cincinnati for a few years now after graduating from UC's planning program, but I can tentatively say that this is the death knell to the OTR as we knew it as a ghetto. There are too many properties being purchased and consolidated, and with the completion of Fountain Square, I would predict that Vine will gentrify up to Liberty in the next 5 years.

 

However I don't think the entire OTR district will "boom" so to speak. Cincinnati's housing absorption rate is not very fast. The OTR district has an enormous stock of buildings, way more than a 2-million-ish midwestern metro could absorb in even 10 years. Being optimistic, I would hope that OTR becomes a very vibrant restaurant and cultural district, fulfilling the dream of having a large, continuous flagship urban neighborhood that Gaslight Clifton, Northside and Mount Adams have attempted to be but couldn't-quite because of their limited size and geographic/topographic isolation.

 

I don't see OTR as becoming a true built-out 24 hour urban neighborhood for 15-20 more years. However, if things continue to go well for it, I think in that 20 year time frame the district has the potential to rival any in the midwest, if only because it is so completely intact. You simply cannot build today what OTR offers. In fact I think that a lot of people in Cincinnati's leadership can't quite visualize how dramatic this change will be. Because of the intact historic density, at an optimum population level it would be difficult to tell on the street if you were in Cincinnati or Chicago. All it will take is the patience to let Cincinnati's population fill it up.

 

I think what 3CDC is attempting to do by going up Vine is not so much providing a new "development beachhead" but attempting to use development as a "smart bomb" (forgive the insensitive analogy) to plow the blight right in half.

 

It's been just about 5 years. What do you think, Civvik?

 

I for one think the progress has been encouraging but slow.  Of course we have had challening economic factors in that time span but I also thought it would have moved faster than it has.  It seems the progress has stalled in the 13th/14th street area for a few years now. 

Considering the overall real estate situation over the past 4 years, I think it's fantastic that there's ANY work going on at all.  It's a testament to the growing importance and desirability of urban neighborhoods in general. 

^ 3CDC owns pretty much every major property along Vine south of Liberty, though.  They recently made a big purchase back along 15th Street between Walnut and Vine, a well.  They may not have fully renovated everything up to Liberty, but it is definitely on the books for the coming year or so. They will be up to the Kroger by June (5 years from the post above).

^^ I would agree with that. I am pleased and encouraged by what has happened, enought to call OTR home, but it seems like the last 2-3 years has just been a handful of new restaurants/bars opening. With that being said, it's been enough to bring a whole new demographic of people into OTR to try these new spots and see the progress. I feel like OTR is turning into a Mt. Adams of sort where people come to drink and dine, but then immeditely leave afterward and there's relatively few people actually living there.

 

I am very frustrated by lack of services available in this area. I've voiced that several times in this thread, so I won't beat a dead horse, but the bottom line is that OTR does not feel like a self-sustaining neighborhood to me. I constantly have to leave to do basic things. I know that retail follows the residental population, but when do we start seeing that? What's the tipping point?

 

I am also frustrated because the GQ as we know it is such a small part of the bigger picture. The reality is that Vine north of like 15th is still a mess. Then north of Liberty still has QUITE a bit of work to be done. Everytime I bring friends down to OTR I hear something about how abrubtly the neighborhood changes, and they're right.

Let's just hope once 3CDC makes it up to Kroger, they wave their magic wand in that direction as well. That neighborhood is SO fortunate to have a grocery store at all, but the parking lot is pretty scray and turns people off from patronizing this location...lots of loitering, soliciting and loud music, etc. Furthermore, this store does NOT meet the needs of the "new" OTR population. I'm not asking them to knock the place down, but the product mix is all wrong. There's plenty of opportunity for Kroger to begin selling higher margin items here if they take care of the image problem this store has.

I'm reminded of the Urbancincy post from last year that discussed the Vine St. Kroger.  It is sitting there in a prime spot and has the potential to add much convenience to the neighborhood.  However, the selection is flawed and it is just not very inviting.  As the post stated, the more people use it and request an upgraded selection, the more likely that is to occur.  Parvis has been sitting basically across the street from it and is full but I would be curious to know how many of its residents use that kroger.  I also wonder how many new residents the area really needs to warrant the retail services we want to see.  Perhaps it will come after Mercer Commons fills - which would mean a few more years.  Mt. Adams has pretty decent population density and all it has aside from bars/restaurants is a UDF and a couple dry cleaners.

^I live around the corner from and shop at that Kroger all the time.  I don't mind the selection at all.  If I want higher end stuff, I go to Findlay Market.  I go to Kroger precisely for cheap stuff.

^I live around the corner from and shop at that Kroger all the time.  I don't mind the selection at all.  If I want higher end stuff, I go to Findlay Market.  I go to Kroger precisely for cheap stuff.

 

Agreed.  I live on Court St and shop at the OTR Kroger multiple times weekly.  It's small, but has all of the necessary items.  If I ever need anything fancy, I take a stroll up to Findlay Market.  As for image...the parking lot is DEFINITELY the worst part about the place.  I always get great service inside.

As the post stated, the more people use it and request an upgraded selection, the more likely that is to occur.

 

The only problem is that Kroger doesn't work this way as a company.  They seem more than happy to pour their money and effort into their successful stores to the detriment of others.  This is entirely self-fulfilling too.  A big reason the Hyde Park Kroger is so successful is precisely because the OTR, Corryville, Walnut Hills (and maybe also the Norwood but I'm not so sure about that one) stores are so comparatively lousy.  It's not even the case that only the well-to-do from those neighborhoods will drive to Hyde Park, but even the poor will pile into taxis or the elderly will get bussed or driven by family over to Hyde Park, because if they're gonna go to all the trouble, they might as well go to the best store they can.  I can very easily see some bean counter at corporate suggesting that those other neighborhood stores not be improved because it could hurt the Hyde Park store's metrics. 

 

The OTR Kroger would certainly benefit by being expanded up to the street.  That'd eliminate the gross parking lot and fix the missing teeth aspect of the building.  It would also give it more room for expanded inventory.  There's a very large amount of empty space behind that building that could be used for either expansion or parking or at least getting the stupid loading dock out of the front.  The only trouble with parking back there (accessed off of Walnut) would be keeping it from becoming even more scary than the one in front. 

The parking lot is just plain stupid. There is a lot to the North on 15th that is barely used, not to mention all the space in back that could be reconfigured for a loading dock.  Most of time the parking lot is not full (or close to it) and a select few people like to pull right up to the door, then wait and idle for someone to come out with the groceries. A total waste.

 

As for selection, there is nothing wrong as far as basics are concerned. I shop there at least 3 times a week, supplemented by Findlay.  Moreover the service there is surprisingly efficient given the few checkout lines they have. I know a lot of OTR people (e.g. Parvis) like to go to the Newport Kroger, which is more of a "Social Safeway" type outing. I don't see the point unless Findlay is closed or I need some specialty items. I may go stake out the Newport Kroger on a Sunday with a clipboard and confront those I know, survey the items in their cart, and then make a comparison re availability of the same items at Findlay and OTR Kroger.

 

Will report back.

I don't know what you guys consider "speciality items" but I don't consider basics like Crest toothpaste, tonic water, hummus, and name-brand yogurt, 4 items I recently have been unable to purchase at the OTR Kroger anything "gourmet" or "upscale"

 

It's a true story though that the service is good -- far, FAR better than the Corryville/UC Kroghetto mess.

I live in parvis and absolutely love having the Kroger across the street. Just as Casey does, I visit roughly 3 times a week along with a trip to Findlay (every weekend). I was the first one to move into parvis and will say without out a doubt Vine Street from 14th to 15th has changed tremendously. Less drug dealings andsoliciting, completion of store fronts, etc have all contributed to this.

 

I think the selection is fine as well. Yeah, they could adjust things to fit the changing needs of the neighborhood. But overall pretty good. Service is great.

 

With all that in mind, I've never seen another parvis resident there. Pretty sad.. Maybe a renovation would help.. Not sure what to do about the lot. Its an eyesore. Randomly parked cars. Oil everywhere.  Its too bad the building isn't' built at street level where they could just extend the store over the lot.

 

The worst thing about that Kroger is the fact that they close at 6 pm on Sunday evening - completely different schedule than any Kroger I have ever visited. I moved to the intersection Main & Liberty in 2007 and a handful of times during the summer months when daylight seemed to go on for forever, I would walk over to Kroger for a last minute ingredient, not really aware of the time, only to find the lights off and the doors locked. Always a bummer. Without fail I would then always get in my car and drive up the hill to Corryville, which at the time was a 24/7 hour store. Back in 07' I found a contact e-mail and wrote a message to Kroger about this, but 5 years later no change in the hours.

 

As for hummus - I consistently found the Athenos brand of hummus there all throughout last summer, usually in the cooler thing near the area where they sell hot mac and cheese, meat etc (I guess that would be the deli counter?) It's been a few months since I've sought it out though, it's possible it is no longer carried.

I use Vine Street Kroger for paper products, kids cereal, orange juice, frozen peas etc.  I've had trouble finding shampoo there for some reason, and the beer selection sucks.  The front parking lot slopes up quiet a bit, so it would be difficult to expand out to the street without adding steps or re-building the whole structure lower.

Speaking of the beer selection, I find it kind of inappropriate that they carry more tallboys and 40s than any other type of alcohol -- brands I've never even heard of, mind you-- and then allow people to consume them in the parking lot out front. Seems like if they stopped carrying these products it might serve to reduce the resulting issues in the parking lot with all the loitering, etc.

 

Diddn't 3CDC have an initiaive awhile back to get the corner stores & bodegas around OTR to stop carrying these "single serve" grab-n-go booze products?

Neighborhood petition would be a great idea about this. I'm certain it oils get good press coverage and put pressure on Kroger.

Didn't 3CDC have an initiaive awhile back to get the corner stores & bodegas around OTR to stop carrying these "single serve" grab-n-go booze products?

 

Just another example of Kroger caring more about profit over community.  Since they have their corporate headquarters here nobody confronts them on things like this.

During a studio project involving food deserts, we asked about this issue. They're reasoning for not expanding the offerings or the store itself was that they felt that the economic viability would be too small for simple expansion or the model they are using in other parts of the country where a main store (mothership) brings more specialized supplies to smaller corner stores to make them viable. It's unfortunate but their head of real estate and head architect didn't make it sound like there were ANY plans to expand their downtown offerings in any way, shape, or form.

In regards to jjakycyk's "2106" post (concerning the Hyde Park Kroger vs. several other urban Kroger stores), I bet that very few UrbanOhio posters realize what a "gold mine" the Surrey Square Kroger store really is.  Always busy--in fact, last month its employees were informed that the store just surpassed the Hyde Park store in sales!  Much more than the Hyde Park store, this big Kroger outlet services the "food deserts" of Evanston, Walnut Hills,  Avondale, and Pleasant Ridge.  While I'm not trying to sell this store to anyone, I would encourage those of you who haven't been in it to take a look--it's a fooler!

2106?

2106?

 

see how this is reply number 2118?

Oh I see now, I was looking but not in the right place.  Anyway, I wouldn't have guessed about Surrey Square.  I guess the renovations probably helped a lot.  It'll be interesting to see what happens in Corryville. 

^totally agree. When I moved there in 2009 there were questions about whether it would be sustained. People were afraid something bad enough would happen to ruin their investment. There werent many people around and it was easy to park.  None of those things are true now. That's a real measure of progress in my opinion.

Is there something weird going on here?  On my iPhone app this is supposed to be the gateway Q thread?

^ Seriously, the Surrey Square Kroger services a very large "food desert" and Kroger management loves it!  Why should they do anything to the south of this giant Norwood store when all the clientele come to it?  (just stand in the foyer for 20-30 mins. and watch all the taxis outside or look at the #4/#51 bus stops on both sides of Montgomery Rd.)  Like several others have just mentioned, why can't Kroger ramp up their Corryville and Walnut Hills outlets?  I realize it's not quite this simple, but it sure would alleviate so many thousands of people having to forage so far away for food and groceries.

^ Sorry, Jim!  Your iPhone app is correct...

A realtor told me a few months ago that a Thai place had signed a letter of intent for one of the spaces I believe in the 1300 block of Vine.

 

I just heard a rumor that the operator is going to be Mike Hama, former co-proprietor of Beluga.  In its day, Beluga was a popular establishment of some quality before its decline into a douchey nightspot that also had decent though pricey sushi.  An additional note - Mike is actually of Thai descent, which makes me feel better about the prospects.  Hopefully he is looking to do solid thai food and cater to the Gateway at a lower price point than the other nearby establishments (as opposed to catering to the old Beluga bar crowd in the new trendy location).

"douchey nightspot"

 

 

I love it, but that is exactly what it quickly became, I couldn't stand to go in there.

"douchey nightspot"

 

 

I love it, but that is exactly what it quickly became, I couldn't stand to go in there.

 

Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,16431.2100.html#ixzz1mQwtMO9C

 

Never went to Belugas, but I kind of feel the same way about Gilpins, fantastic place, terrible crowd.

Does anyone anticipate Gateway Quarter's success to travel North of Liberty.  Renovation is definitely needed North of Liberty.  It's horrid but could be so much more.  Vine has been quickly transformed so I don;t see why the success couldn't continue there.

As long as the streetcar gets going then I'd say yes.  The neighborhood south of Liberty is pretty walkable to most of downtown, but north of there it's getting to be a bit far. 

Does anyone anticipate Gateway Quarter's success to travel North of Liberty.  Renovation is definitely needed North of Liberty.  It's horrid but could be so much more.  Vine has been quickly transformed so I don;t see why the success couldn't continue there.

 

I'm more interested in seeing its success spread East and West than I am North.  OTR is such a massive neighborhood.  If everything South of Liberty could be renovated first, that would build real momentum that could spill over Liberty to the North.

There are SO many vacant properties south of Liberty. As much as it's nice to fantasize, Jimmy James is right.  You could spend 5 years making the Gateway Quarter great before crossing liberty.  3CDC has on multiple occasions stated they are not interested in crossing liberty at this time. 

 

There are so many properties north of Liberty; I would love to see someone else begin working on them since 3CDC has years of work to do south of liberty before even considering moving north.

Does anyone anticipate Gateway Quarter's success to travel North of Liberty.  Renovation is definitely needed North of Liberty.  It's horrid but could be so much more.  Vine has been quickly transformed so I don;t see why the success couldn't continue there.

 

I'm more interested in seeing its success spread East and West than I am North.  OTR is such a massive neighborhood.  If everything South of Liberty could be renovated first, that would build real momentum that could spill over Liberty to the North.

 

We really need to connect nodes though.  Findlay Market is such an important node North of Liberty and is extremely walkable to much of south OTR.  But there is a perception problem that keeps people from making that walk or going up there without a car. 

That's true. And thankfully, in a few years our response can be STREETCAR!

 

Definitely look forward to that. Also- I think the streetcar should be part of the Findlay Market parade. Who wants to help build a 1/4 sized paper mâché streetcar before opening day? (16 feet long, 2 feet wide, 3 Foot tall)

Model Group has started up on a number of long vacant buildings north of Liberty. McMicken west of main has a bunch, as well as Vine (just south of Robert A's Curve Cafe), and near Schwartz's Point (the quasi-Flatiron multi-sided building). They call it "North Rhine Heights" or something to that effect.  This is a good sign.

^ It is good, but it should be known that North Rhine Heights is a low income project Model is doing that will yield 75 units of affordable housing. No market rate component to the project.

Model is also adding 75 units of low income housing to Pendleton.

There needs to be more income mixing in these projects and now is actually the right time to do it with more middle-class people being priced out of areas south of Liberty.

That's true. And thankfully, in a few years our response can be STREETCAR!

 

Definitely look forward to that. Also- I think the streetcar should be part of the Findlay Market parade. Who wants to help build a 1/4 sized paper mâché streetcar before opening day? (16 feet long, 2 feet wide, 3 Foot tall)

 

Good idea.

Does anyone have an image of the new street signs in OTR? The actual street signs with the names of the streets.

Not to go too far off topic, but I had a blog post about Schmidlapp's Model homes:

 

http://www.citykin.com/2008/09/cincinnati-model-homes-1903-to-1919.html

 

^really interesting...

 

 

I encourage everyone to check out the first few pages of this thread...lots of old pics of pre-renovation Gateway Quarter as well as a lot of buildings that were demoed

I encourage everyone to check out the first few pages of this thread...lots of old pics of pre-renovation Gateway Quarter as well as a lot of buildings that were demoed

 

Thanks for pointing that out. It's likely I would not have done that otherwise. I enjoy seeing before and after of OTR, love the progress.

A bit off topic maybe but in many ways on point, regarding the future of OTR projects:

 

I love the old character of the neighborhood, but I find some of the completed projects and planned projects to be lacking in taste.  This I believe is a result of the aesthetic guidelines for the area kept by the city review boards.  As I understand it from reading portions of the proportional materials language, something as beautiful and enriching to the neighborhood as this (http://archidose.blogspot.com/2010/05/nyc-guidebook-find.html) New York rowhouse would not be allowed.

Nor would a great residential midrise like this (http://www.millerhull.com/html/residential/1310.htm) Miller Hull project be allowed in the Brewery District or along Liberty because of the proportion of its facade covered in glass.  This is ridiculous.  Neither of these projects would hurt the character of OTR, IMO either would act as a classy contrast to the buildings around them.

 

I realize not all modern projects have a place in OTR but some definatily do.

100% Agree. Through and through. I was just thinking about this today.

 

Some new development in OTR looks like a suburbany, builders warehouse mess. It needs to be understood that A) it's silly to try to replicate traditional OTR architecture this day in age and, B) modern architecture can highlight and complement what's already down here.

 

Anyone think modern prefab could be a good solution for infill?

 

http://www.fabprefab.com/fabfiles/fablisthome.htm

http://re4a.com/

I also completely agree.  Will the new form based codes possibly be able to address this? 

A bit off topic maybe but in many ways on point, regarding the future of OTR projects:

 

I love the old character of the neighborhood, but I find some of the completed projects and planned projects to be lacking in taste.  This I believe is a result of the aesthetic guidelines for the area kept by the city review boards.  As I understand it from reading portions of the proportional materials language, something as beautiful and enriching to the neighborhood as this (http://archidose.blogspot.com/2010/05/nyc-guidebook-find.html) New York rowhouse would not be allowed.

Nor would a great residential midrise like this (http://www.millerhull.com/html/residential/1310.htm) Miller Hull project be allowed in the Brewery District or along Liberty because of the proportion of its facade covered in glass.  This is ridiculous.  Neither of these projects would hurt the character of OTR, IMO either would act as a classy contrast to the buildings around them.

 

I realize not all modern projects have a place in OTR but some definatily do.

 

I think you are mistaken to blame the aesthetic guidelines for the perceived lack of taste in completed and planned projects. I'm not sure if the two, high-quality modern buildings you cited would actually be prohibited from OTR. Exceptions can be made as they were in the case of Mercer Commons et al.

I agree with you though. If someone wants to build high-quality modern infill in OTR, it should be accepted under certain conditions.  I'd be surprised to learn that any high-quality modern building wasn't built in OTR because of the aesthetic guidelines.

 

#####

 

Not to change the subject, but I think the blocks bounded by Elm, Central Pkwy, Republic and 15th Sts. will play a pivotal role in connecting the Gateway and Findlay Market. I'm excited to learn what 3CDC will do...though at this point, I don't think they even know.

 

Finally, "repairing Liberty" is a major opportunity to connect the Northern Liberties and the Gateway Quarter to make OTR a more cohesive neighborhood...

 

I think that the Mercer Commons situation actually illustrates the point.  The Historic Conservation Board would have not allowed the development to go forward, and 3CDC, being big and resourceful, got around them by going straight to the planning commission (is that a correct recollection?).  The latter step was allowed, as I recall, only because the project received a special designation as a "big A$$ project" (sorry, I forget the actual term!).

 

Anyway, I can tell you that contractors and developers uniformly deride the HCB and will do anything else possible to avoid putting their project at risk by going in front of them.  I believe this includes changing the design.  I personally have done things like avoided putting glass block in a rear facing window that looks into a shower, because my architect said that the HCB probably wouldn't allow it.  Another case I know of the guy wanted to put in a rooftop deck by opening up a portion of the roofline.  This deck could not be seen from even the opposite side of the street while at street level - obviously the cornice was unaffected - but it was disallowed.

 

Maybe these aren't good examples, but I'm sure others will have better ones.  The bottom line is that not many people are going to spend $15K on architects and other fees specific to an OTR infill lot to propose something of high quality but "risky" from the HCB review perspective.  The community and its agencies must do much more than allow "exceptions" in order get that sort of investment - they must show tolerance and be inviting to different architectural styles.