I see that too but that goes against the other slides that show residential stuff fronting Elm.

 

I would really hope that in no situation would they be allowed ground level parking along Elm. I'm pretty sure that would be met with a huge backlash from the community and rightfully so. I'd fight that.

A 3CDC owned building at 18 W. 13th has an LLC applying for a liquor permit, so I would expect a new bar at this location. Circle Hospitality Group LLC is applying for the liquor permit and I believe the name of the bar would be "Remus Pharmacy."

 

http://city-egov.cincinnati-oh.gov/Webtop/ws/council/public/documents/Record?rpp=10&upp=0&m=5&order=native%28%27doc_no%2FDescend%27%29

 

Way to own your history Cincy ;)

Yea the massing does look good. Glad things are starting to spread north. I agree the liberty complete street study should be revisited as things continue to develop on it. That will only help calm traffic and make people feel more safe as they cross to noli

Does anyone have any info on the building going up on Republic just south of Liberty? I believe it's a single family home and is currently three floors. It's a pretty sizable building though so it may be more. I'm curious if it's anything to be excited for or if it'll just be another lazy faux-historic building.

Great to see development opportunities arise. I hope they reconsider, or perhaps the community rejects, the large parking structure. Talk about a density killer. Look at all that space that could be used for something. Things like this kill fine grain urbanism and the chance for high densities without needing residential towers. By accepting these relatively low dense schemes we almost assure ourselves we will need towers in the future to match demand.

Yeah, on one hand the parking should support both this new development and the redevelopment of the other historical buildings on that block (I couldn't quite tell but it sounded like all the unit totals were for the new construction.) Maybe they could go level deeper and put the whole thing underground? (Might be cost prohibitive though.) On the other hand this is near both a northbound and southbound streetcar stop and bike lanes and bus routes so if we're ever going to start this auto lite/TOD thing this would be a good place to start.

 

EDIT: if they did do the whole garage underground maybe the additional productive above ground structures they could build facing Green and Logan would help defray the costs.

On a different subject... I'm all for infill development for parking lots, but does anyone think the lot at 12th and Vine lot would be better suited as a public square? It's got a ton on pedestrian activity and people seem to naturally congregate there. There's a Redbike station, streetcar stop, ATM, and valet parking. It's a well framed open space for both the Vine and 12th St. streetscapes. The buildings across from it in Vine are stunning and with this open space you can see them walking all the way down 12th St. I think it would be a good candidate for a public square project. Now the lots on Republic behind Vine St. buildings in that area onthe other hand should be redeveloped.

It's possible, but it would have to be a REALLY good public space that differentiates itself entirely from Washington Park. Corners in urban areas are super important and should usually be buildings unless they're an amazing public space. But your reasons are legitimate. This could be a really great space potentially.

 

You're also right that all those HUGE lots behind Vine on the Republic side have to go. They're entirely too open. Part of the problem is some of those buildings come with 2 spaces each on Vine, meaning the lots are never full as it is which is even more of a waste. I looked at a couple condos in that group of buildings on Vine before deciding I had no desire to live above all that noise and each came with 2 spaces as part of its HOA. I'd be willing to bet a buyout of spaces to consolidate could happen in the future in order to open up that huge T shaped lot for redevelopment.

There could be a healthy setback to any development that occurs, essentially creating a mini hardscape plaza, even if it's something as simple as angling the corner building to create a bit of room for congregation without having to designate it a 'park.'

That's the type of space though that doesn't get used and ends up being a weird interstitial space. There are very few examples of a corner setback that actually work in this type of urban fabric. It's almost a one or the other scenario. Either a big plaza or a dense development. Trying to do both usually ends up with really bad open space around a building.

Completely disagree. It just has to be done well. I can think of plenty of examples in cities I have lived in where simply curving the corner building to allow for some breathing room creates a mini 'place.' Or giving it a bit of a setback. If done on a fine grain it can work well. When it is a massive corporate tower it usually fails. Philly does this really well around Jefferson Univ in Center City, Melbourne does this really well along Swanston Street in their CBD and Sydney has examples along George Street in Chinatown.

Could you point out some specific intersections? Because I'm looking at those spots and not seeing examples of setting back buildings from the corner on a scale that would be similar to 12th and Vine.

 

The problem is that the statement, "it just has to be done well" is precisely the problem that I was speaking of. It's almost never done well. It's usually just leftover space. A developer of a building doesn't really benefit by building a great public space out front of their building. So they just don't and it's at best an afterthought.

Yea sure. I'll snap a few photos of the George Street examples I am talking about on my way to work tomorrow. The Philly example is 9th and Walnut that I remember. It acts as a drop off for the hospital, but the reality of it is it's more a shared zone and is where street performers/music acts regularly congregate. As for Melbourne - check out the corner of Little Collins and Swanston. NE Corner. There is a great little plaza that was created there.

 

I used to agree with your sentiment on street walls/build to lines but now I'm more in the camp of giving relief in key places/intersections to the fabric to create these congregation points. I think they're quite essential to urban life, really.

Yea sure. I'll snap a few photos of the George Street examples I am talking about on my way to work tomorrow. The Philly example is 9th and Walnut that I remember. It acts as a drop off for the hospital, but the reality of it is it's more a shared zone and is where street performers/music acts regularly congregate. As for Melbourne - check out the corner of Little Collins and Swanston. NE Corner. There is a great little plaza that was created there.

 

I used to agree with your sentiment on street walls/build to lines but now I'm more in the camp of giving relief in key places/intersections to the fabric to create these congregation points. I think they're quite essential to urban life, really.

 

The problem with a corner pocket park is that it requires relatively tall buildings to frame it. I just don't see it working in Over-the-Rhine's fabric. Plus, with Washington Park, Central Parkway and the Peace Park a block away I really don't think it's necessary to stifle any development potential on this spot.

Backing up a few posts, I did think about the proximity to Washington Park and the risk of duplicating public spaces. I think they would naturally be different because of the scaling. Washington Park is big and of a scale to serve all of OTR, and feels like an outdoor space. A square at Twelth and Vine would just serve those streets and would almost feel like an indoor space. I am thinking it would feel almost like the center of a shopping mall formed by Vine St's restaurants and shops. Maybe you wouldn't have to do intense event planning like the park or Fountain Square.

 

In regards to how much space it would need to take up, it's tricky. I was thinking just a few benches for people to rest or take their Graeters or Brezels to, some trees and a space for busking which may not take up the whole space. But if you built something on just the eastern half the lot you'd be blocking the mural and access to the Rookwood pottery shop. (Admittedly I didn't care for the mural too much when it first went up but I think it's OK now and in anycase the building its on looks good.)

The lot at 12th & Vine will almost certainly be sold and developed at some point, maybe 5 or 10 years from now. It just doesn't make much sense for 3CDC to develop it since they have so many other projects to focus on, and they're making money from that parking lot now. As property values continue to rise in OTR, we will reach a point where it makes sense to redevelop all of the small parking lots along Vine.

Their HR people have said exactly that. They don't plan on doing anything more with it themselves but believe it should be a building and are waiting for the "correct" offer which basically means, "when it's worth a ton because of the streetcar" they'll sell it. That's going to be a major redevelopment spot.

Alright I got it. Build a multi-story mixed use L shaped building with a front on Jackson where the lot driveway is.  The building would come back to about where the Rookwood store is and then the L would wrap around the building with the mural on it and extend to 12th street.  Make the rest of the lot a plaza.  Put a restaurant fronting the plaza  in a commercial space in the L shaped building with seating for outdoor dining.  Then the streetcar stop would face the plaza and look out onto the whole Vine St. restaurant strip instead of into the face of a single building. 

 

What about turning the parking lot north of Bakersfield into a plaza?  That is already used for special events a few times a year. It could be something similar to Clifton Plaza on Ludlow.

 

I just see 12th & Vine as being way too valuable, seeing as it's right next to a streetcar stop. Imagine a new 4-5 story office building there in addition to the L-shaped building you have pictured above.

^I like that plan more as long as that massive lot behind on Republic is filled in with buildings. That lot next to Bakersfield has a nice mural now, is centrally located, and is a good size for that type of thing.

The entire appeal to me of putting a public space in that area, though, is to give it a focal point.  As I mentioned before, the 12th and Vine intersection already naturally feels like the heart of OTR south of Liberty. The streetcar and Redbike confirm this and make it even more so. A public space here would really provide a visual cue to someone arriving on the streetcar that "I am arriving in the commercial center of this neighborhood" as opposed to briefly glimpsing all the Vine St. Restaurants as the train rolls on to the next stop. I think all the activity would ensure the space is used and placing it on the intersection would give it a longer reach and visibility down both Vine and 12th streets as opposed to the Bakersfield north lot where it would feel like it's for the one block of Vine St. Only.

I like the idea of having a good sized building at that corner, but having a semi-circle or similar shape carved out of the corner to make room for a small plaza. Basically, like atlas suggests.Just having one of those done well would be huge for Cincinnati. It's one of those little striking details you often find in world-class cities. If the ground floor of the corner-cut building has a cafe, even better.

I think something like this would work well. It's simple and effective. This is along George Street in Sydney where they've made a number of spaces like this, each of which seems to attract performers/music acts on a regular basis.

 

 

 

But you don't need to go to Sydney to see what a setback does for a space. Just go stand at 6th and Walnut and look at the mini-plaza created in front of Nada. And just a block from Fountain Square.

 

 

A 3CDC owned building at 18 W. 13th has an LLC applying for a liquor permit, so I would expect a new bar at this location. Circle Hospitality Group LLC is applying for the liquor permit and I believe the name of the bar would be "Remus Pharmacy."

 

http://city-egov.cincinnati-oh.gov/Webtop/ws/council/public/documents/Record?rpp=10&upp=0&m=5&order=native%28%27doc_no%2FDescend%27%29

 

Here is a short Citybeat article about this new bar: http://citybeat.com/cincinnati/blog-6212-apothecary_themed_cocktail_bar_to_open_in_otr.html

^...as long as that massive lot behind on Republic is filled in with buildings.

 

That lot is privately owned by 4 different condo associations (split with ownership percentages).  While we can have fun playing imaginary planner with 3CDC's property and we may even end up being right... It's pretty impossible to tell 4 condo associations who own a parking lot together to develop it.  I assume one day it will happen, but it would be SO complicated to get those to agree, plus, it adds a huge value per unit to have a gated lot in the heart of everything, so you probably couldn't even get a majority of owners to be willing to sell them unless they got a HUGE payout.

As some of you may know, the Northeast Quadrant of OTR is going to be one of two neighborhoods in the Neighborhood Enhancement Programs announced next week. The NEP will last from March through May. The NEP is essentially a 90 day blitz to clean up trash, fix infrastructure, fix building code violations, provide feedback to make the neighborhood better, etc.

 

The boundaries of the NE OTR NEP are Liberty, Vine, Mulberry, and Main. As part of the NEP, the neighborhood is going to raise funds to renovate Grant Park at the corner of Walnut and E McMicken. How thorough of a renovation it gets will depend on how much money can be raised.

 

I have put together a rough sketch of what I think the renovation should include (assuming large funds). I have no idea how much this would cost or how much we can expect to raise.

 

The biggest issues with the park are:

1) Very dark at night

2) Loitering and drug dealing at the corner of McMicken and Sharp Alley (northern corner of park)

3) Inefficient use of space

 

Goals:

1) Make it an inviting, open space

3) Make it more efficient

4) Create a versatile space

 

Things I've changed:

1) I placed brush/plants/flowers around any fences to will discourage loitering and drug dealing.

2) I added lots of light to discourage illegal activities at night.

3) I made the triangular pedestrian island more inviting and hopefully slowing down traffic near the park while still keeping visibility up.

4) I added a stage so the space can be used for more things (neighborhood parties, small outdoor MidPoint stage, etc).

5) I pushed the basketball court to the opposite end of the park so they don't disturb those playing on the playground/swings.

6) I added a running/walking track around the edge of the park (1/6 mile) to encourage constant use.

7) I provided enough space in front of the stage and basketball court for a small football field, audience for the stage, etc. Stage dimensions are similar to Washington Park's stage, but could be changed.

 

Below I've attached the current aerial, and my first attempt at redesigning the park. Any thoughts, comments, or concerns?

 

Current Aerial

 

Grant Park Redesign

^^^

Why not remove the cut through street (Lang?) altogether and make the park even larger?

For the Grant Park redesign, I'd recommend adding a small dog park because it gets people out there using the park, even on days with bad weather.

^^^

Why not remove the cut through street (Lang?) altogether and make the park even larger?

 

Because I use that cut-through all the time. 

^^^

Why not remove the cut through street (Lang?) altogether and make the park even larger?

 

I'd recommend keeping the Walnut-Lang connection, but the little bit of Moore St between Walnut and McMicken could be removed to make a plaza-like space, which would make 111 McMicken ideally suited for a restaurant/cafe with outdoor seating.

^^^

Why not remove the cut through street (Lang?) altogether and make the park even larger?

 

Interesting thought. I think it would be easier to remove the street on the far right and anyone going north on Moore Street to McMicken could take Walnut/Lang to McMicken. That would essentially shift the triangular piece to the right, and make the street a little wider with two-way traffic. A sidewalk/path could be preserved around the west side of the building to keep a "shortcut" to McMicken by foot.

 

Thoughts on that?

^^You beat me to it by 30 seconds.

 

Maybe the entire stretch of Walnut from McMicken to Liberty could be two-way?

 

I totally agree with the idea of removing the Moore St connector. That could be a fantastic flatiron building.

^^You beat me to it by 30 seconds.

 

Maybe the entire stretch of Walnut from McMicken to Liberty could be two-way?

 

How about the entire stretch of Walnut and Main from McMicken to Central Parkway?

^ I agree. That would be cool. I hope it happens. McMicken-Liberty would be a good start, though.

^^^

Why not remove the cut through street (Lang?) altogether and make the park even larger?

 

Interesting thought. I think it would be easier to remove the street on the far right and anyone going north on Moore Street to McMicken could take Walnut/Lang to McMicken. That would essentially shift the triangular piece to the right, and make the street a little wider with two-way traffic. A sidewalk/path could be preserved around the west side of the building to keep a "shortcut" to McMicken by foot.

 

Thoughts on that?

 

To me it would depend on what is more valuable from a use standpoint, more park or a triangular building?  The 90 degree intersection would help to slow traffic through the area as well.

I've always pictured this park, especially the triangle shapes in question, being more of a European plaza or square and less of a park. If Christian Moerlien could open up a patio to their backside I really think it would start something. This should be the central plaza of the new "brewery district" with bars/breweries opening out to it (and obviously allowing open containers) ala Schmidlapp event lawn, or Covington's new pop-up park attached to Braxton brewery, or even just the Moerlein biergarten at Findlay.

 

That being said the western part of the park could still have green space/dog park/ or basketball court as the space is too huge to just be an open hard scape plaza.

^^^

Why not remove the cut through street (Lang?) altogether and make the park even larger?

 

Instead of removing it, just traffic-calm the sh!t out of it and make it part of the park, while still useable as a cut-through. Best of both worlds.

Regarding the Grant Park, the properties along Back Street are owned by just three owners. Does anybody know what Shanglo uses the buildings for? Their expanse of windowless walls is a huge eyesore for the park.

• 1616 Moore - Rhineland Development (Moerlein)
  
• 27 Back St - Shanglo LLC
  
• 15 Back St - Pendleton Estates
  

^ I agree. That would be cool. I hope it happens. McMicken-Liberty would be a good start, though.

 

I know that DOTE is already studying the conversion of Main St. Asking them to study Walnut wouldn't be a stretch.

Regarding the Grant Park, the properties along Back Street are owned by just three owners. Does anybody know what Shanglo uses the buildings for? Their expanse of windowless walls is a huge eyesore for the park.

• 1616 Moore - Rhineland Development (Moerlein)
  
• 27 Back St - Shanglo LLC
  
• 15 Back St - Pendleton Estates
  

 

I actually don't think these buildings look bad. They are all painted a different pastel color. If the park was nicer, they could provide a nice backdrop.

Regarding the Grant Park, the properties along Back Street are owned by just three owners. Does anybody know what Shanglo uses the buildings for? Their expanse of windowless walls is a huge eyesore for the park.

• 1616 Moore - Rhineland Development (Moerlein)
  
• 27 Back St - Shanglo LLC
  
• 15 Back St - Pendleton Estates
  

 

I actually don't think these buildings look bad. They are all painted a different pastel color. If the park was nicer, they could provide a nice backdrop.

 

PERFECT spot for another ArtWorks mural.

Here's an updated look at the intersection eliminating the extra street. The red space indicates brick pavers, but the image quality isn't too high. FYI, the building on the corner there right now is a little corner store. Alternatively, Walnut could be cut off, the park extended, and use the current Moore Street extension from Walnut to McMicken as the only access point by car. I don't mind either way. Either would be nice.

 

Regarding the Grant Park, the properties along Back Street are owned by just three owners. Does anybody know what Shanglo uses the buildings for? Their expanse of windowless walls is a huge eyesore for the park.

• 1616 Moore - Rhineland Development (Moerlein)
  
• 27 Back St - Shanglo LLC
  
• 15 Back St - Pendleton Estates
  

 

I actually don't think these buildings look bad. They are all painted a different pastel color. If the park was nicer, they could provide a nice backdrop.

 

PERFECT spot for another ArtWorks mural.

 

I like the existing condition. The pastels look nice, and the building that isn't painted has a graffiti mural on the lower 5' of space that looks cool.

 

I think the south side of Moerlein is the perfect spot for another ArtWorks mural.

South:

 

 

North:

 

From the Brewery District Master Plan (PDF):

 

I posted last weekend my idea for a 12th and Vine Plaza in the General OTR thread.  I wanted to develop this idea but since most of the land involves 3CDC I'll post it here this time.  Here's my new ideas for the area: 

 

 

A few notes:

 

1. The new building fronting the plaza comes out farther towards Vine St. than in my previous sketch.  The building frontage facing the plaza would be a chance to design an eye capturing facade and would have to be something special to keep up with the buildings across Vine St.

 

2. Added outdoor dining for Senate if they want it & punch a hole in the wall for a door.

 

3. New Residential mixed use building behind plaza on Jackson St.

 

3. Didn't quite know how to handle the interior of that block north of the plaza, but assumed they need to keep vehicle access for deliveries and moving vans and stuff. 

 

4. New residential mixed use building in the parking lot next to Trideca. 

 

4. Multi story Garage added over on Walnut St. with an office wrap. This garage would be for the new developments pictured within a few blocks to use. I think OTR-ers with a personal vehicle should be OK with the idea storing it a block or two away (instead of immediately adjacent to your house,) and eventually OK with it being a streetcar stop or two away.

 

5. Block long pedestrian ally behind the garage, with new developments at 13th and Jackson and 12th and Jackson.

 

6. New Residential mixed use building in the Bakersfield/1215 Wine Bar parking lot. Maintained a pedestrian ally that could cut through to Republic someday or that could be used during events.

3CDC has posted some photos from the Parksite project on Race. Man, I sure hope they bury the utilities, because it would suck to have this view ruined by a telephone pole:

 

 

 

 

I'd hardly see that as a "ruined" view, but I agree, it should be buried.

Those utility lines only carry power for the lights themselves. Burying them (I believe someone said this would cost $300k if done in conjunction with the streetcar but that didn't happen for cost reasons) would be preferable but I'm not going to get my hopes up anytime soon.

I wish 3CDC would also renovate the 3 story tan and brown building to the south of Parksite.  These units are going to be incredible, but it sucks that there will be a pretty obviously vacant building right next door.