I don't think it's that risky. This is going to become an insanely popular destination for wedding receptions. I bet there will be waiting lists for years in advance. You can make a lot of money on anything wedding-related.

Funky's/Gratzi's has been around for awhile and does a lot of catering for the corporate world. They do a decent job at it and it isn't cheap, so I wouldn't be surprised if they had some capital to put towards this project. I have no idea what Agar is though, but it seems like an odd partner. A catering/restaurant company opening a venue that they can operate and control the food/drinks at seems logical, though.

4 Million over 30 years is around $21,000 per month with an $800k down payment.  Add in labor another 5 grand a month

 

Successful restaurants will probably book on average throughout the year probably $800 a day.  $800 x 365 = $292,000 / 12 months = 24,333.00  Add in the rentals for weddings, parties, concerts, etc.  I bet they could easily net 35k - 40k a month in Revenue in 2 to 3 years, making it very profitable.

 

That could be 14k a month, win back down payment in about 5 years, then 14-15 k per month profit after that.  I bet the numbers will look better eventually though.

 

All business has a lot of risk, but you can't make good money unless you risk it!

$800 sounds low. A place like Senate has 75ish seats. The average person is going to be spending what, $20+? So in one cycle of people through the restaurant you're making $1500 or so before expenses. I'd imagine they cycle through that many people at least 3 times a day.

 

I know the Macaron Bar (obviously not a restaurant, but a local food business) is bringing in at least twice that daily with some days as high as $4,000. If something that niche can do those numbers I think a restaurant in OTR would do significantly more business when you factor in the amount per person for food and especially the cost of alcohol.

There's a ton that can go wrong with this business plan...as the old corny phrase goes "the only ship that don't sail is a partnership".  We'll see if these two are on speaking terms when those monthly $20,000 bills come due and people are taking their time paying for their events. 

^Couldn't the same exact thing be said about basically any business that's owned by multiple people? Which is a large amount of businesses. Of the people I know who own businesses I can't think of any that own the business by themselves. They all have business partners who are equally vested in the business. And these people have a variety of relationships to one another. Brothers, siblings, spouses, partners, friends, etc.

 

It obviously adds a layer to the stress that is owning and operating a business, but it's not something out of the ordinary or unheard of.

 

And this location is going to demand premium rates. Think of how many people have their wedding photos in Washington Park. There's a reason they like that location. It's picturesque. It's going to be in extreme demand.

What if one partner sells their share to an unscrupulous character who works to undermine the other partner?  That happens all of the time.

 

I worked at one place where a former salesman bought out the former majority owner's share and proceeded to sexually harass the minority owner's daughter (who was the leading salesman) in an attempt to make his presence such a headache that the minority owner sold cheap.  Meanwhile he hired his girlfriend and her daughter to pretty much just fiddle around the office and make the atmosphere as toxic as possible.  She attempted to pimp out her daughter to me to get me on her side.  The whole story reached its surreal apex when her daily outfits were augmented by a baby squirrel that rode around all day in her cleavage.  She actually met with clients with a baby squirrel peaking out from between her boobs.  The company soon after went out of business because the minority owner's daughter attempted to unionize the shop.  The majority owner temporarily closed down the business to prevent the shop from unionizing, but then died of a heart attack on his treadmill before he could reopen the business. 

Business partners, co-owners of the building, and over $4 million in debt. What could possibly go wrong?

 

I still see profits here even if the partnership doesn't work out long term.  Last time I was in town I tried to eat in OTR and had a lot of options gone because every other place was reserved for a "event" - which were usually the big companies in town paying a lot of money to a restaurant to take over the space.  That's a very frustrating thing as a lot of these places should be available for all to enjoy - having an event space like this would help ease that issue.

 

Cincinnati also seems obsessed with closed off private parties, least you know the whole town actually enjoy something that everyone should enjoy :P

Ok this is bordering off-topic but... that phrase about partnerships being the only ship that won't sail... cracked me up. In my view of the business world _everybody_ is looking for partnerships that will provide leverage in the market, either through combined capabilities or capital. It seems that nobody can do anything in a vacuum anymore; everyone is paranoid about being left in the dust. So you partner in order to get it done quick, or at all.

 

And any partnering agreement that says one person can sell to whomever they want to, is stupid. Those people have never talked to a lawyer, and probably never even googled "what should be in a partnering agreement". It's common to require that members purchase the shares of any other member who withdraws, for any reason (including death). I mean, that's the advantage of having a private partnership as opposed to a public company; you control who owns you.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/03/03/3cdc-will-play-a-role-in-this-major-downtown.html?page=2

 

This article makes me think those renderings for 15th and Race aren't at all accurate or that's not all of what's happening. It mentions 53 residential units and 65,000 square feet of commercial space and no new parking. That deviates from both plans we've seen so far. Does anyone have any insight into this?

Gotta be taking into account the new town homes on Pleasant in the area plan and maybe the rehab of the two historic buildings. As far as parking goes they probably mean no huge public garage like was planned.

I just reviewed the initial plans for 15th and Race. Those numbers are more in line with the full build out of the entire site. I'm assuming that's what they meant and something got mixed up somewhere. The HCB presentation last week is likely just one small aspect of that 53 units and 65,000 square feet of commercial space mentioned.

To me, this is the most intriguing news in the article:

3CDC plans to embark on a $25 million overhaul and expansion of Ziegler Park and Peaslee Neighborhood Center at 13th and Sycamore streets. It hopes to obtain New Markets Tax Credits for that project, which will include some kind of new parking element, spokeswoman Anastasia Mileham said.

 

I'm very curious what the overhaul will entail... since the City owns all of the surface parking around the Peaslee Center, it makes sense to re-think that whole block.

My ex was working on some design stuff at Mertz for Ziegler Park. I have no idea what came of that or how much it has changed and we don't exactly speak anymore...my curiosity almost makes me want to contact him.

 

It sounded pretty extensive and like it would result in a huge change from what's there now. And potentially spur some surrounding development.

That's an encouraging article in my opinion.  It sounds like there will be two major downtown development projects underway at the same time, a long with many other larger projects across OTR.  Take in the smaller projects in OTR as well to the mix.  The other part is, it seems we are hearing more and more of individual projects and smaller developers staking their claim, a long with big time condo developer Greiw Development stating they will concentrate on downtown, I think the city is finally seeing a tipping point and the "snowball" is getting larger and heavier rolling down hill.  Though there is still tons of work to be done, you can't help be excited with all the forward momentum.  The other part of the article I was excited about is all the TIF money the downtown district is sitting on.  This will help with 8th and Sycamore and also the possibility of filling in a surface parking lot somewhere with a new development, or building a condo tower above Macy's, etc.  Good news!

It really is encouraging that so many parties, big and small, are all stating the same thing. That Downtown and OTR are where they want their money.

 

I think the Macy's tower will be one of the most important as it'll be incredibly visible to visitors of Fountain Square, arguably one of the most important gateway attractions for getting suburbanites back into Downtown. I'm really hoping they're saving some of that TIF money for something great there.

I agree, they need a gorgeous, statement type building on top of Macy's to really brighten up Fountain Square.  Not that I hate the 5/3rd Headquarters, but I think even the Kroger Tower looks better than that...

Business partners, co-owners of the building, and over $4 million in debt. What could possibly go wrong?

 

I still see profits here even if the partnership doesn't work out long term.  Last time I was in town I tried to eat in OTR and had a lot of options gone because every other place was reserved for a "event" - which were usually the big companies in town paying a lot of money to a restaurant to take over the space.  That's a very frustrating thing as a lot of these places should be available for all to enjoy - having an event space like this would help ease that issue.

 

Cincinnati also seems obsessed with closed off private parties, least you know the whole town actually enjoy something that everyone should enjoy :P

 

Well if this thing takes off there's no stopping anyone from diluting its business buy opening a similar place nearby.  The City Hall Atrium, if it ever gets built, will be a competitor. And there's another church on the other side of Washington Park, should it ever sell.  The problem with long-term debt is that they could be forced to pour more money into this place for a rehab and rebranding before they've retired the original debt. 

I wonder if this is different than Model's plan around Findlay Market.  Can anyone pull these docs up?  I am not an insider so not asking for this article, but just seeing if anyone can pull up the city documents?

 

http://www.wcpo.com/news/political/local-politics/findlay-market-poised-for-30-million-development-boost

Sounds like it's speaking in general about all the properties that were part of that deal with the city and 3CDC and not just Model Group's project unless that has been further expanded by 50%.

 

It sounds more like they're talking of a combined investment for all those properties as announced so far.

For those interested here is the presentation that Steve Leeper gave to council about 3CDCs past and future projects:

 

http://city-egov.cincinnati-oh.gov/Webtop/ws/council/public/child/Blob/41946.pdf?rpp=-10&m=1&w=doc_no%3D%27201500280%27

 

As was mentioned previously, the most exciting part to me is the $25M price tag for a Ziegler Park renovation. That's a lot of dough for a small area. It also mentions 38,000 sqft of commercial space included in the Ziegler Park renovation. That's a lot of space! Gotta be infilling the lots by Peaslee Center to get that.

Sounds like it's speaking in general about all the properties that were part of that deal with the city and 3CDC and not just Model Group's project unless that has been further expanded by 50%.

 

It sounds more like they're talking of a combined investment for all those properties as announced so far.

 

 

That is good news.  I wonder what other projects are combined in?  Model Group's project is about $19 million overall, since they hauled in a few more buildings recently.

 

Here is the latest Biz Journal article I could find...

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/01/28/exclusive-model-group-expanding-redevelopment.html?page=all

Sounds like it's speaking in general about all the properties that were part of that deal with the city and 3CDC and not just Model Group's project unless that has been further expanded by 50%.

 

It sounds more like they're talking of a combined investment for all those properties as announced so far.

 

 

That is good news.  I wonder what other projects are combined in?  Model Group's project is about $19 million overall, since they hauled in a few more buildings recently.

 

Here is the latest Biz Journal article I could find...

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/01/28/exclusive-model-group-expanding-redevelopment.html?page=all

 

Maybe includes the Findlay Market's investments into their incubator kitchen and "Roots" grocery store.

City hall atrium will never get built. Ever.

Ok this is bordering off-topic but... that phrase about partnerships being the only ship that won't sail... cracked me up. In my view of the business world _everybody_ is looking for partnerships that will provide leverage in the market, either through combined capabilities or capital. It seems that nobody can do anything in a vacuum anymore; everyone is paranoid about being left in the dust. So you partner in order to get it done quick, or at all.

 

And any partnering agreement that says one person can sell to whomever they want to, is stupid. Those people have never talked to a lawyer, and probably never even googled "what should be in a partnering agreement". It's common to require that members purchase the shares of any other member who withdraws, for any reason (including death). I mean, that's the advantage of having a private partnership as opposed to a public company; you control who owns you.

 

 

Agree with all of this. 

Well said.

Given the recent issues with Mahogany's, not to mention the 2008-09 financial collapse, I'm a bit surprised how willing people are to take on debt-financed restaurant and entertainment endeavors.  Anyone who has had completely unlikely things happen one-after-another while in debt knows how your life can quickly spin out of control. 

One of the studios at 1406 Republic is sold and the two large units are pending.

 

Not surprising given the complete lack of inventory these days. I'm glad to see that building will soon have life in it.

A new beginning for Grant Park in OTR

Bowdeya Tweh, March 12, 2015

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/03/11/residents-leaders-cheer-plans-grant-park-rehab/70175718/

1207 Elm, next to the church-to-be-event space across from Washington Park just sold to Mark Greene Construction LLC for $316,500. 3 story building. Probably for residential conversion?

 

Mark Greene has developed the row of about 12 $850K homes on Riverside drive.  They have amazing interiors and 3 massive decks on the back with built in grills, stonework, etc.  His interiors are high quality, despite the cookie cutter nature of the exterior of his Riverside Dr builds. 

Interior demolition in progress at the old Ollie's Trolley No. 97 (corner of Race & Liberty).

Which building is that/what corner?

SE corner - Google Maps view:

Any word on what's going on in that space?

 

I know it's a sacrilege here, but I kind of always wanted that building gone to allow for a huge development on that site. This building, though adorable, is sitting square in the middle of what is an important entryway to south of liberty on the streetcar. A large building that wraps this building would be hard due to its depth unless some demolition occurred.

Any word on what's going on in that space?

 

I know it's a sacrilege here, but I kind of always wanted that building gone to allow for a huge development on that site. This building, though adorable, is sitting square in the middle of what is an important entryway to south of liberty on the streetcar. A large building that wraps this building would be hard due to its depth unless some demolition occurred.

 

It's not sacrilege. There's nothing to that building, and the site should be developed as you described.

That building was a laundromat when I moved into the neighborhood.

 

Yes a larger building on that site would be nice, but a one story building like that also makes it a lot easier to vent a hood from a restaurant... and there is potential for outdoor seating etc....

^If it was somewhere else I would love it becoming something. But it's just that specific spot is unfortunate. Liberty needs 5-8 story buildings to feel comfortable from a pedestrian standpoint. It's just too wide in its configuration. We need to push to make the most use of all the empty lots along it in order to make it feel like a complete street. Otherwise north and south of liberty aren't ever going to feel truly connected.

Great news out of Rhinegeist, bringing a rooftop deck and event center to their building:

Rhinegeist has revealed big expansion plans in keeping with the brewery's stunningly rapid growth. The brewery will nearly triple production this year as it enters the Columbus market, and will add a rooftop deck and an event center to its Over-the-Rhine facility.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/entertainment/2015/03/13/rhinegeist-brewery-reveals-expansion-plans/70275446/

 

The rooftop has quite a lot of flat space, so they could have a very large rooftop deck, depending on how they configure it.

 

Here's a rendering of their proposed rooftop deck:

Are they going to have an elevator?

Are they going to have an elevator?

 

I think the building is already 3 stories if you count whatever basement it must have. If the roof deck counts as 4, they will need to supply an elevator due to ADA. I'm not sure if the roof will count as a story, I could argue it either way.

The building does have a freight elevator somewhere.  I was up there once when they had a grand piano in the space.  But the situation with thousands of people climbing that staircase every night could be their undoing.  Honestly I don't know how the fire marshal ever approved having a few hundred people up there with just two paths of escape, it seems.  And one lawsuit from a drunk falling down those steps and millions of $'s disappear. 

They have an elevator. Currently it is for deliveries and handicapped access only. 

Looks pretty sweet, can't wait to see it.

North of Liberty action:

 

3CDC just closed on 1709 Vine St. Looks like a nice big project.

 

I know they've also been doing a lot of stabilization work on 1724 Vine St.

There is so little housing available down there right now that it's kind of turning me off to the area. It's like, come on guys, the huge demand has been pretty apparent for several years now, what are you doing. It feels like 3CDC is more interested in building parking garages than housing units.

Under that same LLC, 3CDC owns quite a few parcels, both south and north of Liberty.

 

With demand being what it is, and prices going up and up in both OTR and downtown... how is it that no projects can be done without some sort of public assistance? Either in the form of City grants or historic/new market tax credits?

 

I know building vertically is more expensive, but with the rents of apartments ans selling prices for condos being borderline outrageous how is it that these prices cannot allow the market to support construction on its own?

 

Is it just that urban endeavors are viewed as riskier by the industry? I dont know how handouts to developers are necessary when rents are approaching $2/square foot?

Rents and condo prices rising dramatically doesn't mean they're necessarily profitable. Fixing up completely vacant, deteriorated buildings is an insanely expensive endeavor and in many situations is such a large expense that it's not possible to turn a reasonable profit without grants/tax breaks/etc.

 

$2/sq. ft./month is basically the low point for new construction. That means cheap construction, not nice construction. Something like the tower planned for 8th and Sycamore is of a quality much higher than $2/sq. ft./month can really justify to investors and banks.

 

$250/sq. ft. for condos is a lot, but think about other cities. We use examples of building quality we want and ignore the fact that units in those buildings go for $400/sq. ft. and up. There is a lot of money in real estate in OTR/Downtown, but not really when compared to other cities and the cost of construction.

 

We're getting to the point where less subsidy is needed but we're not at the point where it's not needed at all. And probably won't be for awhile.

Which building is that single family home? And what 4 properties is Urban Sites selling?

 

219 Wade just hit the market (I was wrong, it's $530K): http://m.cbws.com/property/details/256362/MLS-1434338/219-Wade-St-Cincinnati-City-Downtown-Area-OH-45202

 

Urban Sites is selling 208, 212, 214 and 215 Wade St.

 

If it sells for that price, or even close to that price, it'd be a big statement. It isn't a condo on 12th and Vine, it's a home in a somewhat isolated spot (at least for another year or two) and the actual investment in the renovation is probably half of what the asking price is.

 

219 Wade is showing as "Sale Pending" with an asking price of $530,000.  Wow.