We need a price point for a fair comparison, but yes, I'd love stuff like that built in OTR. And at that height. Eff height restrictions and historic boards and their ilk.

Put basketball hoops on Rothenberg's employee parking lot.  Problem solved.

 

Take a look at this proposal for Short North in Columbus...much, much higher quality than anything 3CDC has built so far:

  http://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/news/2015/04/02/first-look-multi-story-tower-proposed-for-short.html

 

Re: basketball hoops, that would definitely be a logical solution. I wonder if it would be enough to counter the emotions involved at the meeting.

 

Re: the White Castle in a mixed used development in Columbus... How will that entire building not smell like White Castle all the time?!? My cousin lives down the street from a White Castle and you can definitely tell! Some things may be meant to be stand alone buildings :)

 

That Columbus development looks heaps better than most of Cincinnati's infill. Still, though, it's massing is quite bulky. That's a nearly 65m long massing along High Street. That's quite large and loses fine grain, by any definition. They had a great opportunity to extend the alley just west of the site through to High Street via a laneway/pedestrian alley of some sort and they didn't.

 

Jan Gehl once said that here in Australia, take all urban design standards and half them, and then you'll get closer to a human scale. I think this way of thinking can apply in American cities too.

 

Even if developers are refusing to build fine grain, we can still get 'fine grain light' by way of breaking down large massings and infiltrating podiums with pedestrian access. 

1537 Republic St was just purchased by a subsidiary of Bair Properties.

They've been gutting the property for at least a week. They own that row of four buildings now. They appear to do good work so I'm happy to see them continuing to expand in OTR.

That is awesome.  Towne was also looking at it, but I'm happy it was picked up by Grandin.  Peg Wyant is a very forward thinking person when it comes to urban living.  She has fully embraced OTR.  One thing that will be interesting... That building has no parking, but is across Central from the City owned $40 a month parking "Town Center" Parking garage.

 

A $2 a day garage right next to $1 an hour meters.

 

PROGRESS. 

 

It's now a $2 a day garage next to $0.75 an hour meters with a four hour max. 

Moved the parking discussion here: Cincinnati: Parking Modernization

A few shots from the Globe Building, a 3CDC project, which is now home to the People's Liberty program on the 2nd and 3rd floors. There is also a rotating gallery on the first floor and a retail space that has not yet been filled. The building is across the street from Findlay Market and on the streetcar route.

 

 

 

Platte Architects is also moving into the top floor of the building which is a nice tenant to have there. They do a ton of the work happening in OTR so it's nice to see they're investing in the future of OTR.

Awesome.

1509 Republic to be rehabbed into 5 apartment units by Avila Magna Group, a subsidiary of MC Square Limited, a company owned by Marc Cop and Cristina Chuecos. The rehab is budgeted at $860,000. It will include four 2-floor units and a single family townhome.

 

http://city-egov.cincinnati-oh.gov/Webtop/ws/council/public/child/Blob/42191.pdf?rpp=-10&m=1&w=doc_no%3D%27201500479%27

Not sure where to put this, but I saw some people opening up the door and going into Weilert's (sp?) yesterday. Has anyone heard anything about someone looking towards fixing it up? Another brewery perhaps?

 

 

Construction has begun on an industrial kitchen near Findlay Market that will be available to food entrepreneurs who want an entree into the market. The goal is to support existing vendors and create pipelines to Findlay Market for new vendors.

 

Projected completion is for Fall 2015.

Not sure where to put this, but I saw some people opening up the door and going into Weilert's (sp?) yesterday. Has anyone heard anything about someone looking towards fixing it up? Another brewery perhaps?

 

The American Heritage Tour in OTR opens it up for people to look inside.

It's possible it was them checking something between tours. It was three guys who entered who weren't dressed as tour guides, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I didn't realize they were bringing people inside that building on their tours. When did they start doing that?

Not sure where to put this, but I saw some people opening up the door and going into Weilert's (sp?) yesterday. Has anyone heard anything about someone looking towards fixing it up? Another brewery perhaps?

 

Such a cool history for the building: http://www.cincinnativiews.net/wielerts.htm

Opened in 1873 Wielert's became the finest local saloon of the day. Opened by Heinrich (Henry) Wielert (1826-1892), a native of Hanover, Germany, who fought in the Civil War as a Union Soldier. In the rear of the saloon was a block long beer garden that had a roof but was open on the sides. This was the largest beer garden in Cincinnati. Busts of German composers and writers lined the perimeter.

 

How well preserved is the interior? Does it retain many historic features?

 

1410 Vine St is currently owned by "OTR Holdings Inc", which is - I believe - a 3CDC LLC.

Not sure where to put this, but I saw some people opening up the door and going into Weilert's (sp?) yesterday. Has anyone heard anything about someone looking towards fixing it up? Another brewery perhaps?

 

I suspect that 3CDC will put together some sort of master plan for Vine Street between 14th & Liberty. The Weilert's redevelopment could happen first, but it would make sense for it to be part of a larger plan for that section of the neighborhood. If the rumored Kroger at Central Parkway & Walnut Street gets built, the current store could be demolished and replaced with a new Mercer Commons-scale development. (Or Kroger could open a Fresh Fare-type store in the ground floor of this new development.)

That stretch of Vine has a really unique set of buildings. Some typical OTR building stock, but then Weilert's, the large five story limestone building north of 15th on the east side of the street, a building with a cool courtyard across the street from it, etc. And three opportunities for large scale new construction on the Kroger lot, where that hideous thing is on the east side of Vine and Liberty, and the large open lot on the west side.

It's possible it was them checking something between tours. It was three guys who entered who weren't dressed as tour guides, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. I didn't realize they were bringing people inside that building on their tours. When did they start doing that?

 

Not to give too much away, but it's the grand finale of the Queen City is Haunted tour.

I might have to check that out then. I've wanted to go inside Weilert's for awhile. I'd love to see it before its inevitable redevelopment.

Such a cool history for the building: http://www.cincinnativiews.net/wielerts.htm

 

Great find.  I don't think I've seen that site before.  By the way, if Taft's Ale House doesn't have a copy of this framed somewhere, they need to get it:

 

http://www.cincinnativiews.net/images-2/Cox-newspaper.jpg

Interesting news about a partnership between Urban Sites and The Brandery to provide housing for the startups: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/04/06/brandery-unveils-first-in-the-nation-housing-model.html?page=all

The Brandery and Urban Sites are embarking on one of the first projects of its kind to provide Over-the-Rhine housing for the startups that come to Cincinnati to take part in the top 10-ranked accelerator. The OTR accelerator has signed a master lease for two buildings located at 1123 Walnut St. to house the 10 to 12 startups that it accepts annually as part of its program.

Is the beer garden at Weilerts still there? From those old drawings and postcards it looks like it was amazing.

Speaking of Beer Gardens, are they even any in OTR right now?

 

Would be really awesome to have a scenic beer garden like this

 

 

in the middle of the historic architecture

I'd say Neons counts as a beer garden. Also during the summer they have the one at Findlay Market though its only during the day when the markets open.

Speaking of Beer Gardens, are they even any in OTR right now?

 

Would be really awesome to have a scenic beer garden like this

 

 

in the middle of the historic architecture

 

Btw, the thing that  OTR has that is really awesome (other than a few cafes with courtyards that are cooler than the photo you provide like Iris Book Cafe and Collective Espresso as well as MOTR), are the old brewery buildings that are revived to include tap rooms - this is super unique and is something Cincy should sell as a tourist attraction: https://www.google.com/search?q=rhinegeist&espv=2&biw=1536&bih=758&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=JN8lVfyhDIHmsAWc8YH4AQ&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAw

and

http://d2zrqxibtw5pa4.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/styles/Array/public/articlephotos/MoerleinTapRoom1.JPG

 

Or even Taft's Ale House which is a fantastic adaptive reuse of a church as a brewpub: http://media2.wcpo.com/photo/2015/03/31/Tafts_Ale_House_pre_open-13_1427854718940_15930937_ver1.0_640_480.jpg

 

 

Iris's courtyard: http://otrmatters.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/yard.jpg

Three new single family homes are on the market on Main St. 1426, 1428 and 1430 Main St. 2 bed, 2.5 bath, parking space, deck, $479,000.

 

http://www.comey.com/p/1426-Main-St-Cincinnati-City-OH-45202/mls_cincy/1443694

http://www.comey.com/p/1428-Main-St-Cincinnati-City-OH-45202/mls_cincy/1443700

http://www.comey.com/p/1430-Main-St-Cincinnati-City-OH-45202/mls_cincy/1443702

yuck

City Gospel Mission, 3CDC partner for new facility

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/04/10/city-gospel-mission-cdc-partner-new-facility/25258251/

City Gospel Mission has been waiting almost 10 years for a new home. They say it was worth the wait.

 

On April 9, City Gospel Mission, one of Cincinnati's largest providers of shelter, meals, and services for the homeless, is moving in to a new home on Dalton Street, roughly one mile away from its current location at 1419 Elm.

 

The $16.6 million dollar expansion, made possible by 3CDC's "Homeless to Homes" program, will increase CGM's overall space to 64,500 square feet, give it the capacity to serve 150 meals (as opposed to the previous 100), and increase the number of emergency shelter beds to 74, according to Tim Curtis, communications director for the mission.

Thats nice, I wonder what the plan is for the building on elm...

EXCLUSIVE: Developer adds condos to major Findlay Market project

Apr 17, 2015, 12:52pm EDT

Tom Demeropolis Senior Staff Reporter-Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

Model Group hasn’t started construction on its planned $19 million redevelopment project next to Findlay Market, but the real estate developer is making a change based on feedback from potential residents.

 

Instead of 35 apartments, the project will now include nine condominiums, seven of which have already been pre-sold. Bobby Maly, chief operating officer of Model Group, said the company made the decision after listening to those who want to live in the development.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/04/17/exclusive-developer-adds-condos-to-major-findlay.html?ana=e_cinci_bn_breakingnews&u=YhY%2FQfXAMCgNyFrEjw9v+w0e0d9800&t=1429292180&page=all

Thats good news. Hopefully others will get on board quickly from seeing the demand on this project. Also saw on the business courier that findlay is planning on extending biergarden hours this year and trying to encourage some vendors to try out expanding hours into the evening. This will be essential/inevitable as things move and more people are living around the market.

Eli's stays open until 9pm 6pm every night and Market Wines is open until 730. If the first floor of the Crown Building at the corner of Elm and Elder could get a nice restaurant that stays open til 10pm or so that would be a great fit and I imagine Market Wines could stay open a little later.

 

EDIT: Looks like Eli's cut Findlay Market hours to 6pm every day. Unfortunate, but they probably weren't getting much business that late. Hopefully they extend hours for the summer.

You should not ignore the commercial space. It's fair market value needs to be added to the sales revenue.

 

When I have more than cost estimates for my building I'll post them in all their gory detail. We're bidding it now. It's useful to compare what a hack like me can do with an individual building, to the professions. That margin might entice others to do the same.

 

Since I said I would...

 

I've attached the Design/Development construction bids for the 1527 Elm property, to begin in July. You can ignore the "alternate 1" as that adds a new basement unit, still to be determined if that's cost effective. Please note these are not cost estimates; they are bids.

 

Here's a summary:

 

The bid cost is about $461,000, with 10% contingency. To this figure add: $18,000 architect; $7,200 LEED; $5,000 loan/appraisal fees; $35,000 roof/gutter/cornice; $5,000 additional masonry stabilization; $2,000 cleanout; $15,000 purchase; $5,000 legal. These latter costs fall under "predevelopment" and have already been spent. So all together, the costs are about $553,000.

 

These costs will completely rehabilitate 6 units including a large 4th floor loft, for a total of 4500 sq. ft. Result: $123/sq. ft. It's actually a bit better than that, cause for this cost we're also getting a 650 sq. ft. storefront finished to the "white box" stage, but I haven't included that in the above figures.

 

This compares to the $200+/sq. ft. where folks are "losing money." Fine, I'll accept that happens, as long as it's also accepted that I'm able to do it for much less.

 

For that price we'll meet LEED Silver. And I think that the finishes will be roughly comparable. We'll have ceramic tile bathrooms and showers. The kitchens will probably be IKEA Abstract with the Blum drawers. Appliances will be good quality ceramic cooktop, oven, and dishwasher. We might do IKEA PAX closets or at least use the sliding PAX doors. We'll save costs in all sorts of ways that individual owners like us can, such as scouring Building Value for things like ceramic tile.

 

So as long as you can get a building for a reasonable cost that doesn't require tons of stabilization (such as rebuilding the entire facade, etc), then I would insist that $125/sq. ft. is a target you should be able to meet. I hope that encourages more individual owners with the wherewithal to take that plunge.

Which ignores the entire point of the original conversation. That many of the buildings in OTR are NOT in good condition and are insanely expensive to stabilize and that new construction is an entirely different animal than rehabilitating a building with good bones since it includes things like foundations, excavation, etc. that are a financially heavy portion of the construction process, especially now when concrete and steel are so expensive.

 

Your mention of Ikea products also fits into my statement that anything luxury is going to be more expensive. Ikea is never luxury.

 

This conversation was started about new construction townhomes and people wanting them to be priced at $100-150/sq. ft. sale price. Your numbers, even for an unrelated product, prove this is a ridiculous thing to ask.

I'm definitely not complaining, this what we have been waiting for all along, but I am a little shocked about how quickly the feel of my block of Race Street north of the park has changed with the opening of Taft's Ale House. It's generating a ton of foot traffic all evening long. It's  become a little Vine-Street-like, even though that's the only thing on the block open at night, but I guess that's because the capacity inside Taft's is huge. Should be interesting to see it change once again once the Zula burger place goes in and 15th and Race project is completed.

Which ignores the entire point of the original conversation. That many of the buildings in OTR are NOT in good condition and are insanely expensive to stabilize and that new construction is an entirely different animal than rehabilitating a building with good bones since it includes things like foundations, excavation, etc. that are a financially heavy portion of the construction process, especially now when concrete and steel are so expensive.

 

Your mention of Ikea products also fits into my statement that anything luxury is going to be more expensive. Ikea is never luxury.

 

This conversation was started about new construction townhomes and people wanting them to be priced at $100-150/sq. ft. sale price. Your numbers, even for an unrelated product, prove this is a ridiculous thing to ask.

 

It's funny because I used to always here the argument from developers that these old buildings are sooo expensive to rehab "It would be cheaper to tear it down and re-build"..  I mean I heard that a thousand times from developers and speculators. 

 

I really appreciate Jim putting his numbers out there in the public.  This could encourage others to do the same.

 

Also, it should be noted, 1527 Elm is a building that was vacant for decades and had no roof for the last several years.  Yes, maybe it had good bones, but it was still a severely damaged vacant shell.

In many cases that actually is true. The thing is that you can't get historic tax credits at that point and in a lot of cases that tax credit is enough of a difference to make it worth it. Most of 3CDC's projects wouldn't be possible without numerous tax credits without being significantly more expensive to purchase into.

 

But 1527, roof or not, doesn't need major structural reconstruction like many (I'd even venture to say most) do. Like taking out entire walls and rebuilding. Reconstructing the foundation. Redoing literally all the brickwork. Etc. I applaud Jim for doing his project and at what appears to be a really conservative price point, but that's just anecdotal. The reality of most situations is a much higher cost per square foot and we see that in the projects that 3CDC and other big developers have taken on. Projects that require serious grants and tax credits to make them profitable since their construction costs are well over $200/sq. ft.

I've gotta defend the IKEA Kitchen. The few I've seen are very nice. IDK if IKEA offers off-the-self options, but the one's I've seen are custom for the house.

>So as long as you can get a building for a reasonable cost that doesn't require tons of stabilization (such as rebuilding the entire facade, etc), then I would insist that $125/sq. ft. is a target you should be able to meet. I hope that encourages more individual owners with the wherewithal to take that plunge.

 

 

Thanks for posting this.

 

At what point (how many units) does a rehab job require an architect?  I've heard that the electric, plumbing, and hvac can be designed by an electrician, plumber, and heating/cooling guy respectively without having that additional expense. 

 

Also for those calling for luxury finishes...you have obviously not read much about cap rates for apartments of various rent levels.  Cheap apartments usually offer a higher if not much higher rate of return for the investor.  Also it's a lot easier to cash flow redevelopment of a property if the build-out of each unit is much less expensive per sq foot. 

And you've obviously forgotten the context of the conversation. Not rentals, large townhomes designed for families with money.

 

This conversation started when discussing the cost per square foot of new construction luxury townhomes as part of 15th and Race and then continued into rehabilitation of buildings for condos. Not rentals.

^ One, two, and three unit residential buildings do not need architectural plans. Anything with commercial space, or more than 3 units does. A lot of the plumbing, HVAC, and electrical companies have engineers on staff that can submit plans.

 

^^ I have an Ikea kitchen in my house, it was probably 1/10th the cost of what a typical full kitchen renovation would have cost (granted I'm an architect and did all of the construction myself with the exception of plumbing) It's not luxury but it does the job, and looks clean and modern. I wouldn't want to put anything nicer in a rental unit, because it would just be something expensive to replace when a tenant inevitably destroys it.  Though a problem with Ikea is that they are continually redesigning their products and replacements will be hard to come by in 5-10 years. My cabinet doors have already been discontinued in their newest kitchen line.

 

I'm likely skewing cost a bit overall when I say new construction can be done for $150 a square foot - as I'm not considering the cost for my own services and the work I'd contribute. But as Jim Uber put it, if you're capable of doing some of the work yourself and have a decent site, the costs can be lowered dramatically.

 

^ One, two, and three unit residential buildings do not need architectural plans. Anything with commercial space, or more than 3 units does. A lot of the plumbing, HVAC, and electrical companies have engineers on staff that can submit plans.

 

 

If you buy a building with a commercial space but don't build it out (only finish upper floor apartments, for example), is there a scenario where you won't be able to legally rent out the commercial space without having to gut a lot of the previous work?  Or can there be an entirely separate water, electric, heating/cooling hookup for the commercial space that is added later?

 

One of the issues facing the buildings where Jim's is and up toward McMicken is that many do have commercial storefronts but those spaces can't yet be rented at a rate that pays back their construction costs.  And if the building has space for four apartment units and the commercial storefront could be a fifth, then it adds complexity to the decision. 

 

Also the new Mercer town homes appear to have no basements:

 

A full usable basement is one of the big features of a house versus a condo...space for hobbies, space to make a mess, space to make some noise. 

Folks, I don't think my rehab costs are "anecdotal" or "unusual" for individual-scale OTR projects. It may be that because 3CDC has taken on a number of truly challenging properties, that their rehab costs are actually the unusual ones. Take a look at Wade street west of Elm, for example. From the exteriors, many of those structures are in as good a shape, possibly better, than my 1527 or 1529 Elm properties. The recent rehab of 218 Wade was 4000 sq. ft. and sold for 500,000, or $125/ft. That's what it sold for, which is obviously greater than the costs. And that building had significant stabilization requirements, more I'd wager than any other building on that street will end up needing.

 

One way to get around the "anecdotes" is to talk about what the actual costs are to a GC -- the type of GC that you could work with as an individual. At 1527 Elm we rebuilt 1/4-1/3 of the rear masonry wall from the roof line down, and tuck-pointed the remainder of that wall. The cost - about $6,000. Scaffolding, removing the bricks one by one, and putting them back together again. These were professionals, but ones that do small scale projects. There's a building on Elm st. next to Washington Platform that recently had the entire facade removed and rebuilt. You know what the bottom tier laborers made on that job? $12/hour. That's disgusting, but it's true -- I know who they are. You know how much granite costs a good GC? $35/ft installed. Insane, and maddening, when you realize that your price as an individual is double that amount. Drywall installation and finishing for 4500 feet and 6 units at 1527 Elm is $31,000, or about $7/ft. And that's for rental construction that requires 2 hour fire partitioning. A 2 hr. partition is three layers of gypsum board, followed by a metal frame, followed by a fourth layer of gypsum. You won't need to do that in a single family home or smaller rental property. A completely new roof deck tearoff and replacement, new shingles, front cornice stabilization, rebuilt box gutters and lining, and 80 feet of new from scratch metal cornice and box gutters at 1527 Elm - $25,000.

 

These are all significant costs. It's just that they don't add up to $200+/ft. in most instances. At the same time, let me say again that I'm fully in support of 3CDC and others getting whatever the market will give them for their properties. I hope they make a great profit. But there is room below those selling prices for those who can and want to take a different approach. I'm firm about that.

 

Oh yeah, then there's "luxury." I'd never be so arrogant as to lecture someone else about what constitutes luxury for them. But a lot of the properties that have been redeveloped in OTR are not what I'd call "luxurious." I bought and still own a great Bill Baum property at the Trideca lofts on Vine, back in 2008 when only Lavomatic was open on that street. I paid $220/ft. for that condo! No regrets at all. Bill used ultra-low 3" sawed pine boards for molding, left all of the brick exposed, big unpainted spiral ducting running through the unit, single pane exterior windows (!), exposed metal conduit with galvanized surface mounted outlet boxes, mid-range appliances, a cool half wall that held a closet behind it (without requiring any doors!), and it all worked ... beautifully. Cheapest finish construction in the world and it comes off as trendy and high-value. I just find that really interesting. About the only thing he missed was Formica countertops instead of granite (but that retro-y thing wasn't so much appreciated in 2008).

 

I couldn't stop laughing when I read jmicha's admonishment that "IKEA is never luxury." I happened to read that late last night, after a full day installing an IKEA PAX sliding door hack for my bedroom closets. It turned out great, but at that moment I couldn't have agreed more!

I'm definitely not complaining, this what we have been waiting for all along, but I am a little shocked about how quickly the feel of my block of Race Street north of the park has changed with the opening of Taft's Ale House. It's generating a ton of foot traffic all evening long. It's  become a little Vine-Street-like, even though that's the only thing on the block open at night, but I guess that's because the capacity inside Taft's is huge. Should be interesting to see it change once again once the Zula burger place goes in and 15th and Race project is completed.

 

You know what's even more shocking? Republic. That street was where the 2001 riots all began, and now the intersection at 14th is turning into one of the nicest little side streets in the city.

These are all significant costs. It's just that they don't add up to $200+/ft. in most instances. At the same time, let me say again that I'm fully in support of 3CDC and others getting whatever the market will give them for their properties. I hope they make a great profit. But there is room below those selling prices for those who can and want to take a different approach. I'm firm about that.

 

The big advantage of doing a less-expensive rehab is that the loan can be much smaller.  But the issue in OTR remains that the buildings are so large that doing 6-10 units as a first project is not possible for most people that want to rehab.  That's why the houses in Northside are perfect for rehabbers...there are some 2-families but the neighborhood is mostly single-family 1200-1600 sq foot homes.  Saving up $50,000 in cash to do an almost all-cash rehab is a realistic goal for someone who is professionally employed.  Saving $500,000 to rehab a 6-8 unit building in OTR is a lot less likely. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

About the only thing he missed was Formica countertops instead of granite (but that retro-y thing wasn't so much appreciated in 2008).

 

Jim, are you saying buyers prefer Formica/laminate to granite or some other kind of natural stone these days?  If so, why - just to keep prices down?

 

BTW it sounds like you're doing a great job on Elm St. 

^ Thanks - much appreciated.

 

I'm getting a little further out of my element here. I'm not a designer. I've just noticed more of it, along with other things like vinyl composition tile (think checkerboard pattern flooring in lots of different colors), and painted glass for backsplashes and other surfaces. And you can readily buy interesting stuff like ribbed metal edging for Formica countertops. Whereas 5 years ago I think if you'd asked, I'd have wondered if Formica was still making laminates. The tie in with the other elements I was mentioning is that they're all relatively cheap and - maybe it isn't the right word - overvalued.

 

But that's just me and it's just a guess. Personally I like it and think potential renters would too; my wife disagrees!

Have a question for all you guys....How long do you think this over saturation of restaurants/bars can be sustained in OTR? It's one thing if they were spread across OTR with a sizable distance in-between, but in this instance where talking literally blocks away, if not simply next to each other...

 

The thing is, it's not stopping. We have the 16 Bit Beercade set to open in the end of April. ZBGB by Summer. The Nation (from the owner of Rheingeist) in late Spring....and lest we forget The Taft Ale House just opened up a few weeks ago as well.

 

There's a slew of restaurants and bars in OTR that is just continuing to grow and grow by number. I'm just curious for how long is this even sustainable?