^ and ^^ :  I'm not a huge fan of office space in OTR.  I feel like there's plenty of room for that in the CBD (which will be a short streetcar ride away) and OTR should be primarily residential.  Seems like offices would require more parking too.  I'm in favor of offices taking up some of the store front retail spaces like has already been occurring, because I don't see how OTR could ever have the population to support as much street level retail space like it did in its heyday. Other than that I could see maybe some medium sized spaces for some creative-oriented companies or trophy tech companies that wouldn’t consider Cincinnati otherwise, but nothing to large scale.   

 

Although recently I said on this board OTR doesn’t really need hotel space either, one place I could see a hotel is in the two large buildings on the NE and SE corners of Vine and 15th.  Maybe one boutique hotel operator could operate a hotel with a north and a south building.

I think most would agree that OTR needs a high mixture of uses and users, some large and yea, most ideally small. This is what will ultimately support a more vibrant retail scene, something you said the residential population of OTR will never itself be able to support. An OTR without hotels or significant commercial/office space doesn't sound like a very promising or sustainable urban neighbourhood to me.

^ Exactly.  A healthy restaurant scene for instance needs both daytime activity and evening residents.  When one or the other is lacking, the only businesses that can make it are usually the high-volume low-value chains and franchises.  Hyde Park for instance has so many great restaurants not only because of the wealthy residents that eat out at dinner, but also the many (usually small) professional offices nearby that patronize those same restaurants at lunch, which can be just as profitable as dinner due to faster turnover of tables.  Stores and restaurants that only cater to downtown office workers are usually closed at or before 5:00 so any residents who might want to go there are out of luck.  A residential monoculture, even a high-density one, is just as bad as a commercial or industrial monoculture, because ultimately it's dead for a significant chunk of the day, and that stifles business and vitality.

I think that argument is a bit extreme. Wicker Park, for example, is a fairly successful neighborhood and almost the exact same size as downtown and OTR at 21 million square feet. It has no hotels to speak of, except for a couple of hostels. It also has no significant office users by Chicago standards, although I'm sure there is plenty of daytime employment space in the general urban fabric.

You guys make some good points. I'm certainly not in the neighborhood during weekday business hours so I have no idea how much foot traffic there is. There is certainly enough space to fit in some office so it should be done, but I still would like to see the nieghborhood skew strongly residential because demand for that is off the charts and that's the original purpose of a lot of the buildings.

 

One more thought on a hotel, it would have to be located in a part of the neighborhood that is almost completely redeveloped because a lot of tourists would get weirded out easily by abandoned buildings next to the place they're staying. So in that respect a new building on the parking lot at 12th and Vine makes the most sense. It's across from a garage too for valet parking. Also a streetcar stop right out front. (My dream was always for at least half of that lot to be a public square however...)

Schmitty's is an amazing looking building! I just hope development keeps traveling North of Liberty. 

Maybe not a great analogy after a mentioning of Schmitty's, but I view development meeting Liberty like a forest fire meets a road. It'll slow down its spread in that direction since it is a barrier, but it will eventually cross it and continue. We'll likely have to wait until this round of development by Findlay Market and the developments along Liberty happen before we see development jump Liberty on Vine.

I read on one of the articles that one of the New Market Funds (not sure which one) was looking to invest in Broadway Commons 1-3 and also the Avondale Town Center project.  I suspect then that the other development funds that was awarded will focus on 15th and Race, 15th and Vine and Mercer Commons 3 office development. 

 

Should be exciting to see the uptick in projects.

I think that argument is a bit extreme. Wicker Park, for example, is a fairly successful neighborhood and almost the exact same size as downtown and OTR at 21 million square feet. It has no hotels to speak of, except for a couple of hostels. It also has no significant office users by Chicago standards, although I'm sure there is plenty of daytime employment space in the general urban fabric.

 

Wicker Park has a major hotel project in the works to actually replace what was previously a large class b or c office tower:

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20141022/wicker-park/northwest-tower-hotel-pushed-spring-2016-underground-parking-nixed

 

I know a few friends that work there, there isn't any major office space, but instead its scattered throughout the neighborhood.  Daytime traffic IMO is also driven by people who work flexible schedules, freelancers to support the very large design/advertising industry and nascient tech industry as well as financial industry workers who work later shifts.  Scattered offices do help but they aren't the whole picture.

 

Wicker may also be about the same size of OTR, but in terms of urban form its a larger, denser, more intact version of Walnut Hills with more old industrial space like you'd find in Camp Washington on the west side of the neighborhood.

No mention of the boutique hotel in the Ophthalmic Hospital space on West 12th Street yet? That is in the works as well.

I think that argument is a bit extreme. Wicker Park, for example, is a fairly successful neighborhood and almost the exact same size as downtown and OTR at 21 million square feet. It has no hotels to speak of, except for a couple of hostels. It also has no significant office users by Chicago standards, although I'm sure there is plenty of daytime employment space in the general urban fabric.

 

Wicker Park has a major hotel project in the works to actually replace what was previously a large class b or c office tower:

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20141022/wicker-park/northwest-tower-hotel-pushed-spring-2016-underground-parking-nixed

 

I know a few friends that work there, there isn't any major office space, but instead its scattered throughout the neighborhood.  Daytime traffic IMO is also driven by people who work flexible schedules, freelancers to support the very large design/advertising industry and nascient tech industry as well as financial industry workers who work later shifts.  Scattered offices do help but they aren't the whole picture.

 

Wicker may also be about the same size of OTR, but in terms of urban form its a larger, denser, more intact version of Walnut Hills with more old industrial space like you'd find in Camp Washington on the west side of the neighborhood.

Maybe not a great analogy after a mentioning of Schmitty's, but I view development meeting Liberty like a forest fire meets a road. It'll slow down its spread in that direction since it is a barrier, but it will eventually cross it and continue. We'll likely have to wait until this round of development by Findlay Market and the developments along Liberty happen before we see development jump Liberty on Vine.

 

That's why a road diet project timed to start when south OTR is building out would be a great project to keep things moving north.

But that's too newfangled urbanist only for those darn elite hipsteryuppies for Mr Cranley to wrap his head around.

^^That will never happen under Cranley.  I can guarantee you that.  He would rather put money into neighborhoods like Clifton... I mean, East Price Hill and Bond Hill.  Or repave all of Lynwood Avenue in Mt. Lookout even though it didn't need it.

^^That will never happen under Cranley.  I can guarantee you that.  He would rather put money into neighborhoods like Clifton... I mean, East Price Hill and Bond Hill.  Or repave all of Lynwood Avenue in Mt. Lookout even though it didn't need it.

 

And would there be something wrong with putting money into those neighborhoods, after what the city has done to them over the past 30 years?  They used to be beautiful.

No not at all, but it is just how he presents it.  He shouldn't be a hypocrite, he should be a leader.  Don't call fellow council members irresponsible, etc. for wanting to fund a seemingly worthwhile project, but then turn around and do the same thing somewhere else.  Just state the facts.  His hypocritical statements aren't necessary, it is always divide with him.

^^That will never happen under Cranley.  I can guarantee you that.  He would rather put money into neighborhoods like Clifton... I mean, East Price Hill and Bond Hill.  Or repave all of Lynwood Avenue in Mt. Lookout even though it didn't need it.

 

And would there be something wrong with putting money into those neighborhoods, after what the city has done to them over the past 30 years?  They used to be beautiful.

 

Please tell us what the city has "done" to them?  City governments in the United States have almost no control over housing, transportation, or attracting employment.  The federal government has overwhelming influence in housing policy, they built the highways and don't build public transportation, and companies come and go. 

 

To be fair, ODOT is paying to repave Linwood.  It got pretty badly torn up by utility work and has had recurring base failures above Mt. Lookout Square that they dug up and did full-depth repairs to.

Cincinnati Shakespeare Company moving into OTR, into the old homeless drop inn center by music hall. New construction will be built on top of current structure there.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/life/2015/06/16/homeless-hamlet/28829115/

A dumpster showed up either today or yesterday outside of Smitty's old location. It appears they're going to start demolition soon.

^That's really great. BTW isn't is "Smitty's"

Yep. Don't know why I typed it that way. I typed that shortly before closing my computer and going to bed so we'll blame that.

 

I'm excited for that project to happen in addition to the project at 15th and Vine to help that stretch. They had serious drug dealing problems, put the barriers in, thought they solved it, removed the barriers, saw that the problem came back, and put the barriers back. It would be really nice if they could be removed again since they look awful and they removed the "no left turn" sign so people turn down 15th and then realize there's nowhere to go. But this stretch from Vine all the way to Elm is seeing tons of work and in a couple years won't have any vacant buildings or lots anymore.

Cincinnati Shakespeare Company moving into OTR, into the old homeless drop inn center by music hall. New construction will be built on top of current structure there.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/life/2015/06/16/homeless-hamlet/28829115/

 

Interesting to hear that they will repurpose the existing building. I had assumed that the current building would be demolished and something new built there.

Yeah. According to the auditor, the building was constructed in 1988. It's not a great building, and I would have loved a new ~4 story apartment building on the site. Never been inside, but I can't imagine that's any better.

There are 3 connected buildings on the site.  The 1988 building facing Elm is two story with basement.  The middle building was a garage, one-story, no basement.  The westernmost part of the site is a three story Teamsters Hall that is probably from the 30s and is pretty cool. 

Yeah. According to the auditor, the building was constructed in 1988. It's not a great building, and I would have loved a new ~4 story apartment building on the site. Never been inside, but I can't imagine that's any better.

 

Well in 2088 it will be considered a historic building no?

Yep. Don't know why I typed it that way. I typed that shortly before closing my computer and going to bed so we'll blame that.

 

I'm excited for that project to happen in addition to the project at 15th and Vine to help that stretch. They had serious drug dealing problems, put the barriers in, thought they solved it, removed the barriers, saw that the problem came back, and put the barriers back. It would be really nice if they could be removed again since they look awful and they removed the "no left turn" sign so people turn down 15th and then realize there's nowhere to go. But this stretch from Vine all the way to Elm is seeing tons of work and in a couple years won't have any vacant buildings or lots anymore.

 

What exactly is the project your referring to by smittys?

Yeah. According to the auditor, the building was constructed in 1988. It's not a great building, and I would have loved a new ~4 story apartment building on the site. Never been inside, but I can't imagine that's any better.

 

Well in 2088 it will be considered a historic building no?

 

I believe the deadline for consideration by the National Register is 50 years. And it by no means guarantees that's historic.

 

Though I think you're trying to make a pretty lame point that everything old isn't worth saving. To which everyone here will agree.

Yep. Don't know why I typed it that way. I typed that shortly before closing my computer and going to bed so we'll blame that.

 

I'm excited for that project to happen in addition to the project at 15th and Vine to help that stretch. They had serious drug dealing problems, put the barriers in, thought they solved it, removed the barriers, saw that the problem came back, and put the barriers back. It would be really nice if they could be removed again since they look awful and they removed the "no left turn" sign so people turn down 15th and then realize there's nowhere to go. But this stretch from Vine all the way to Elm is seeing tons of work and in a couple years won't have any vacant buildings or lots anymore.

 

What exactly is the project your referring to by smittys?

 

It's being converted to 13 condos by a private developer.

I am curious to see which project(s) 3CDC puts this funding into.  The Mercer Commons Phase 3 and 15th & Vine projects appear to be stalled because they did not receive this funding for the past two years. Perhaps they will use this money to accelerate those. Alternatively, I heard that they had been seeking New Markets funding for the Ziegler Park/Cutter Playground project. That project could really help development in the eastern part of OTR and Pendleton.

 

Apparently the Ziegler Park renovation is moving forward but the latest designs have not yet been revealed to the public...

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2015/06/16/next-public-space-remake-otr-zeigler-park/28833013/

I don't want to sound like a pessimist, but I don't think a renovated Ziegler Park is going to have anywhere close to the impact that Washington Park has had on the surrounding neighborhood. (Not that anyone here thinks so, but the Enquirer article makes ridiculous parallels.)

 

They could bulldoze Peaslee neighborhood center and plow Yukon Street north to 14th, building a new Peaslee on the new half-block created by the new street. Then a true park with frontage on all sides could be built. The way is is arranged now is just a mess.

If Cutter Playground is part of the master plan, it could have a big transformative effect. A new parking garage could go under Cutter Playground to support new development where the Peaslee center is located now. But if they're just going to install some new playground equipment at Ziegler Park, it's not going to have any real impact on the neighborhood.

Since they mentioned parking, it wouldn't surprise me if what you just described is what they're thinking about.

Was there at one point mention of underground parking under ziegler?  I could be making this up but I feel like it read/heard that somewhere. It would make more sense then cutter as they're already building a parking deck at the scpa.

That would be great if you could revamp it like they did with Washington Park.  Put the parking underground, move the Peaslee Center, and let development work around it with 4 story buildings.

Was there at one point mention of underground parking under ziegler?  I could be making this up but I feel like it read/heard that somewhere. It would make more sense then cutter as they're already building a parking deck at the scpa.

 

I haven't heard anything about an underground garage at Ziegler. I have heard that if they build an underground garage at Cutter, the parking deck would not be built, as the garage would provide parking for Alumni Lofts (SCPA) residents.

If Cutter Playground is part of the master plan, it could have a big transformative effect. A new parking garage could go under Cutter Playground to support new development where the Peaslee center is located now. But if they're just going to install some new playground equipment at Ziegler Park, it's not going to have any real impact on the neighborhood.

 

well, I think that budgeting for having substantial year round youth activity/sports programming, like they say they're going to do, will have a pretty big impact. At the level of Washington Park? no. But Ziegler won't be a source of blight/criminal activity and underprivileged youth in the area are going to have some better things to do than hanging out in front of boarded up buildings all day. I'd chalk that up in the win column.

It's a $27 million project.  I think that means that there will be considerably more done to the park than just installing new playground equipment, but I'm not sure if that price tag is high enough to also create an underground parking garage.  Does anyone remember what Washington Park's renovation cost?

$48 Million for Washington Park. 8 Acres.

 

Ziegler Park Green Space: 1.11 acres

Adjacent Basketball Court: 0.20 acres

Parking Lot to the North: 0.90

Peaslee Center: 0.44 acres

 

Total Possible Area: 2.65

 

Ziegler Cost/Acre = $10.19 Million/acre (assuming total area including Peaslee and parking)

WP Cost/Acre = $6 million/acre

 

Unless Cutter Playground renovation are included, this is a very expensive project per acre compared to Washington Park.

 

Quite a bit of the Southern end of WP remained untouched, but it shouldn't account for that much of a difference.

Washington Park was $48 million. The garage is under just the 2 acre expansion which is where the majority of the money was spent.

 

$27 million doesn't quite seem like enough to do that, but it also seems too high to just be for the park itself. Maybe someone on here has some better information to work with to know what that money is going to get us.

It's a $27 million project.  I think that means that there will be considerably more done to the park than just installing new playground equipment, but I'm not sure if that price tag is high enough to also create an underground parking garage.  Does anyone remember what Washington Park's renovation cost?

 

Washington park costed 46 million.

 

So, 19 million dollars more...That said Ziegler park is a much smaller area compared to Washington Park.

It's a $27 million project.  I think that means that there will be considerably more done to the park than just installing new playground equipment, but I'm not sure if that price tag is high enough to also create an underground parking garage.  Does anyone remember what Washington Park's renovation cost?

 

Washington Park was just under $50 million, and it is about 5 times as large as Ziegler. $27 million is a substantial amount of money for a park as small as Ziegler is.

There was an apparent insider who was familiar with the project who posted on this thread, pages and pages back, probably from march? Anyway his sources said that the Ziegler park renovation would be on a much larger scale than simply adding playground equipment hence the large price tag for such a small park. But he also mentioned a parking garage being built as a big chunk of that price tag so who knows.

Four of us posted essentially the same thing in a 36 second span  :clap:

Teamwork haha.

 

A restructuring of the site to allow for a park, underground parking, and development facing the park on all sides would be ideal. As it is now it's quite obviously the result of random demolitions and taking over of remnant space which doesn't create a cohesive environment like Washington Park.

3CDC is only interested in Ziegler for the underground parking.  Probably 90% of the $27 million will go towards constructing underground parking. 

Well considering the idea of the underground parking wasn't even originally part of the picture, no.

 

Wherever the idea that 3CDC is only interested in parking (despite developing less parking spaces per resident than almost all other developers) came from makes no sense. Especially when they develop so many buildings with zero parking attached.

 

They're interested because of the redevelopment opportunities in that area. Sycamore has so much potential for infill. Probably the most south of Liberty due to its complete lack of buildings along most of its length through the neighborhood.

City panel: OTR townhome project needs design changes

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/06/19/city-panel-otr-townhome-project-needs-design.html

I think my dislike of the historic board has been well made, but this is the type of thing that I enjoy hearing from them. I don't like that these are faux-old, but since they are the board's statements are all good to hear. They are too short, the alternating of two designs is so wrong and doesn't fit at all, and the lack of emphasis of the buildings that turn the corners is a problem. I'm hoping this results in more variation similar to the 9 townhomes being built on 15th next door.

Especially when they develop so many buildings with zero parking attached.

 

Bingo.  An underground garage allows buildings with zero parking.  3CDC doesn't just fix up parks for the greater good of the neighborhood.  They are a business.  I know they'll do an excellent job with the park renovation, but their first priority is underground parking to support nearby development.

I wonder what the financials on WP garage are. On one hand it costs tens of millions to build and is staffed 24/7. On the other hand it is nearly always packed, with most people paying hourly rates if not the heightened special event rates. If it is a revenue generator for 3cdc I say good for them. That just allows them to have more cash flow to support more building rehabs and event programming.  (BTW for what it's worth, I spoke with an employee and they think the broken glass I posted about recently may be caused by structural settling, due to lack of impact points, not vandalism.)

 

My impression from what I've read is that the garage under discussion is for underneath Ziegler and the parking lot to the north, Cutter is not involved, and the SCPA parking deck is a done deal. 3cdc does seem to be behind the schedule they laid out in their most recent annual report in terms of presenting Ziegler plans to the public however. Maybe Cutter could be part of it or something. If the SCPA developers handed Cutter over to be part of the park they wouldn't have to pay for maintenance.

 

A garage under Ziegler is a good idea. One, it's needed to support the Main Street nightlife. Two, it helps 3cdc make money on the Main Street nightlife (assuming the financials work out as I described above.) Three, there are buildings on Main that are not fully utilized with residential yet and it could support new apartments there (New York Dry Cleaners building comes to mind.) Fourth, there are huge lots available for infill along Sycamore as has been mentioned that it could help support. Those parking lots south of the SCPA might be the ugliest parking crater in the city. Fifth, it could support rehabs further east in Pendleton which seems to have more intact stretches of historic buildings than other parts of OTR even.