I wonder what the financials on WP garage are. On one hand it costs tens of millions to build and is staffed 24/7. On the other hand it is nearly always packed, with most people paying hourly rates if not the heightened special event rates. If it is a revenue generator for 3cdc I say good for them. That just allows them to have more cash flow to support more building rehabs and event programming.  (BTW for what it's worth, I spoke with an employee and they think the broken glass I posted about recently may be caused by structural settling, due to lack of impact points, not vandalism.)

 

My impression from what I've read is that the garage under discussion is for underneath Ziegler and the parking lot to the north, Cutter is not involved, and the SCPA parking deck is a done deal. 3cdc does seem to be behind the schedule they laid out in their most recent annual report in terms of presenting Ziegler plans to the public however. Maybe Cutter could be part of it or something. If the SCPA developers handed Cutter over to be part of the park they wouldn't have to pay for maintenance.

 

A garage under Ziegler is a good idea. One, it's needed to support the Main Street nightlife. Two, it helps 3cdc make money on the Main Street nightlife (assuming the financials work out as I described above.) Three, there are buildings on Main that are not fully utilized with residential yet and it could support new apartments there (New York Dry Cleaners building comes to mind.) Fourth, there are huge lots available for infill along Sycamore as has been mentioned that it could help support. Those parking lots south of the SCPA might be the ugliest parking crater in the city. Fifth, it could support rehabs further east in Pendleton which seems to have more intact stretches of historic buildings than other parts of OTR even.

 

Do you know who owns those empty lots along Sycamore?

 

Because those empty lots, to me at least, are no brainers for a potential condo and retail development for 3CDC.

 

Also, would be great for a potential 30 story condo tower, but this is Cincinnati, and we like to be conservative because the suburbs is where we like to live and raise kids along with our labador dog lucy and our picket white fences. Its safe there, not as many of those thugs, and we have a great 9-5 job in Mason.

 

Sometimes I close my eyes and dream how great it would be for Cincinnati to just go through a major growth expansion that of Toronto went through, and just explode with new residents and new condo towers glistening in the cincinnati skyline and just become a real bustling metropolis that stands on the same shoulders as Philly, Atlanta, Chicago, etc. But I just get this gut feeling, it always be this mid-tier, small sized city, that is dead on the weekdays after every employee drives back home from there corporate kroger or p and g jobs and go back to the burbs in Montgomery and Mason.

^ - I don't think a 30 story condo tower would be at all appropriate there. Would be totally out of scale with the historic district and stick out like a sore thumb. I'm with you that Cincy needs some condo towers, and the pace of their construction is frustratingly slow, but there's so many places to put them in the CBD before putting them right in the middle of Pendleton. I would be more than happy with a solid mixed use development that interacts with the street and hides the parking for those lots. Hit some singles and doubles and they add up.

 

- as an urbanist I don't mean to be condescending to suburbanites and suburban life, it doesn't win any allies when things get political. Even metros with huge bustling downtowns have lots of conservative suburbs. I just think Cincinnati needs to be providing an equal amount of options for urban walkable places and repair the damage auto-centric designs have done to our city neighborhoods.

 

- Downtiwn Cincinnati especially OTR is quite lively even on weeknights. And growing more lively. Any place is quiet on a Sunday or Monday evening and thank goodness! Us city folk like our peace and quiet too.

^^ Aren't you the same one who was complaining about crime in OTR?  Now you're making fun of suburbanites for not being able to deal with being downtown? 

 

Downtown and OTR are anything but dead after the end of the workday.  I don't know what to tell you if you really think that's how it is. 

But I just get this gut feeling, it always be this mid-tier, small sized city, that is dead on the weekdays after every employee drives back home from there corporate kroger or p and g jobs and go back to the burbs in Montgomery and Mason.

 

I think it's important to actually BE here on those weekdays before making that comment. Having lived in OTR for 14 months now it's anything but dead on weeknights. Restaurants are regularly full with multi-hour waits on weekdays, the daily events in Washington Park are packed, people are out at the riverfront, on Fountain Square, etc. We passed the point you fear about 10 years ago when things started turning around.

Does anyone know exactly what slowed down Cincinnati's growth. I keep hearing how if Cincinnati were able to build there subway that they had intended that this city would be eye to eye with a city like Philadelphia.

 

I also hear about the, "white flight" to the suburbs. What exactly went so ary with cincinnati? What made cincinnati this once bustling place that was packed to the brim with people, to what we have now? Don't get me wrong, I see the improvements, but you have to admit it's incredibly slow. Just tearing down that porgue garage has taken years, to build that condo tower. Hell, follow Cincinnati's business courrier and have it is irreleveant news, or greater cincinnati news that's about indiana or kentucky or mason. I just feel development has picked up, but it still feels so incredibly slow.

 

And I just want to wrap my head around why is Cincinnati the way it is? What exactly made so much of the population turn around and run to the suburbs? What exactly made so many jobs leave the core of cincinnati and move to blueash and kenwood and mason and other parts of greater cincinnati? Went exactly went ary?

Wasn't sure whether to post this here or Crime/Safety....

 

Club Glitter hit with an eviction notice.

 

https://twitter.com/BillGRinehart/status/612473357435596800

 

 

Jmicha It looks like the quote machine got screwed up and you've mis-attributed TroyEros's quote to me..

 

TroyEros: The issues you raise are not confined to Cincinnati and are really a separate discussion from OTR 3CDC News. Your're really asking about one of the main themes of American History over the last 60 years.  Alot has been written in general but there's a large thread also here on UrbanOhio: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,7292.0.html

Yeah I saw that and have no clue what's happening or how to fix it. When I click edit it isn't formatted to show up that way...Not really sure what's going on with it.

Yeah I saw that and have no clue what's happening or how to fix it. When I click edit it isn't formatted to show up that way...Not really sure what's going on with it.

You have to make sure the text is after of the [/qu0te] command.

Does anyone know exactly what slowed down Cincinnati's growth. I keep hearing how if Cincinnati were able to build there subway that they had intended that this city would be eye to eye with a city like Philadelphia.

 

I also hear about the, "white flight" to the suburbs. What exactly went so ary with cincinnati? What made cincinnati this once bustling place that was packed to the brim with people, to what we have now? Don't get me wrong, I see the improvements, but you have to admit it's incredibly slow. Just tearing down that porgue garage has taken years, to build that condo tower. Hell, follow Cincinnati's business courrier and have it is irreleveant news, or greater cincinnati news that's about indiana or kentucky or mason. I just feel development has picked up, but it still feels so incredibly slow.

 

And I just want to wrap my head around why is Cincinnati the way it is? What exactly made so much of the population turn around and run to the suburbs? What exactly made so many jobs leave the core of cincinnati and move to blueash and kenwood and mason and other parts of greater cincinnati? Went exactly went ary?

 

Cincinnati is not unique in any of these respects, really.  A truly thorough answer to your questions would require a walk through of post-war transportation, land-use, and banking policies of which there are people on UO that are much more schooled than I am.  I trace most of American cultural foibles and the gutting of our cities to the automobile.  In one instance, cars are both fantastic and horrific for what they have offered us all.

 

Edit: Sorry for the OT. I missed your response thebillshark. I'll respond in the sprawl thread.

I've been told the 15th and Vine office project is now a go thanks to the New Market Tax Credit.  Will be great to see development move further up Vine. 

Grandin Properties just closed on 1422 Elm St... currently a vacant lot.

Interesting. Hopefully they build something high quality there. They generally do decent work as far as developer buildings go and could offer a better product than its current new neighbor two lots away and upcoming neighbor on the lot next to it.

General question....I have a buddy whose interested in buying some old homes in OTR and rehabbing and remodeling them and putting them back on the market. What's the low end and high end of what to expect in terms of cost, typically?

I suggest you listen to our recording of the Owner Occupied OTR session. It's two hours and only scratches the surface of the process.

 

I have heard that you can typically expect anything from $50/sq. ft. (for mostly cosmetic changes to a structurally sound building) up to $150/sq. ft. (complete rehab of a crumbling building).

Honestly there is no answer to your question. Buildings vary greatly in condition in OTR and therefore so do costs. You could get lucky and find a building that only needs some aesthetic improvements and come in at $75-125/sq. ft. or you could find serious structural problems, roof issues, foundation issues, etc. that push that up to $200-250/sq. ft. It really depends on the individual building and what he wants to do with them. The difference between a bare bones remodel that uses the cheapest finishes versus one that is truly high quality is quite large.

 

Basically what I'm getting at is that it's really impossible to give him an answer without having a building and a general idea of finish quality sought.

 

The advice I can give to him is to look at buildings and bring an inspector with him to check them out with him so he can get a proper idea of which are money pits and which aren't. From there hiring an architect is the best way to go if he's looking for something really unique. If he's more looking for something less unique and more marketable to the general public hiring a builder could work for him.

I've posted my detailed costs for 1527 elm up thread. About $100/ft.

Has anyone seen the plans for 131 W 15th Street? It is the building behind 1432 (1434) Elm Street. OTR Holdings Inc. (3CDC) owns both as well as the vacant lot at 129 W 15th Street (at Osborne Alley). Here is a photo from today:

I suggest you listen to our recording of the Owner Occupied OTR session. It's two hours and only scratches the surface of the process.

 

I have heard that you can typically expect anything from $50/sq. ft. (for mostly cosmetic changes to a structurally sound building) up to $150/sq. ft. (complete rehab of a crumbling building).

 

I listened to the whole podcast (very interesting and informative) but I wish that the speakers had gone in to when they expect to start making a profit. The answer to that question might matter more than how much it will cost to rehab a building, though obviously they are tied together.

I'm hearing that the Main Street streetscaping will be moving forward soon. This will include new light fixtures and street trees between Central Parkway and Liberty and a completely new sidewalk from 12th to 13th.

Another new retail location opening in OTR.

 

This time Three Sweet Girls bakery: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/06/23/three-sweet-girls-opening-otr-bakery.html

 

Target date for July 6th, on 29 E. 12th St. Will sell bake goods.

Didn't we just get new light fixtures two years ago on Main Street?

Good news on 15th and Vine.  On the light fixtures, was it the Walnut Street ones they just turned over recently?

I think the most recent ones around Main Street were on 12th and 13th but not on Main itself.

I guess they weren't new poles, but they repainted them from a drab green color to black. Everything was painted. Seems like a waste of money that could be spent on other improvements elsewhere. New sidewalks will be nice, I guess, but they also did a lot of work on those making them ADA compliant at the same time. Just seems like it doesn't need the improvement.

 

You can see the difference in Google Streetview from 2011-2014

^They were a consulting client of mine.  Glad to see they are headed to OTR.  I knew it was in the plans and I'm happy to see it come to fruition.  They are great supporters of OTR.

I'd imagine that the rebuilt parts of the sidewalk will remain and the repaving will butt up against it meaning nothing will be wasted in that regard.

 

As for the lights, they might just be reaching the end of their useful life and replacing them in conjunction with a handful of other projects could save money over the long run compared to maintaining the existing ones.

FYI, it was October 2012 when they repainted them. They look fine to me. Hopefully that's the case and it's not just throwing money at a problem that doesn't exist.

 

All of the street sign poles/light poles/parking meter poles on Main Street are getting painted black (they were a dark green color). Just like the white poles downtown that got painted black before the World Choir Games.

Their spot is a great location for a cakery. We are working with them on some small interior changes to the space and it's definitely going to get a good amount of business from the Art Academy and people moving between Vine and Main. And they're in one of the best looking buildings in the city.

When the streetscape was last redone (in the 90's?) they had a limited budget and only installed half as many streetlights as you would expect. So every x feet, instead of there being streetlights on both sides of the street, it's only on one side, and then for the next one, it's on the opposite side. So, I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the streetscape involved putting in these "missing" streetlights.

 

We are also getting new double-headed streetlights, similar to the ones on Vine (and maybe Walnut?), which should provide more light than the single-headed ones we have now. Our existing ones would be put into storage to eventually be used on some other streetscaping project in the city.

^Great info. That'll not only help brighten up Main Street at night, but utilizing the existing infrastructure in another project is a good use of a resource we've already purchased.

 

I quite like the streetlights on Vine over the ones on Main so I'm happy to hear they'll be that style.

I've always liked the relative darkness of Main versus Vine. It gives it more of an edgy feel. I guess that exactly what they're trying to eradicate, but I'll sure miss it.

Main can be awkwardly dark for a major street. It will be great to add the double head lights and more trees.  Now if they could use the saves single head poles to fill in the weird gaps of 12th and 13th between Vine & Race which have no street scaping... Once those are done 12th will be street lamped from Pendleton to Elm St. Eventually getting all the way to Central Parkway would be ideal. 

 

Personally, I put street lamps above underground utilities.  Ideally you would do both of course, but Street lamps make a huge difference of the feeling of a block in my opinion.

Agreed. It bugs the heck out of me that the streetlights along race are still the wood pole+gooseneck type. They look so awful. The rest of the streetscaping looks great on that street but then the streetlights look cheap and like something you'd find out in rural Ohio. Not a good look.

Just got a notice about a new single family home to be built on the vacant lot at 1506 Race Street. Construction fences went up around the site and the neighboring building to the north a week or two ago. I figured we'd be seeing something new built here. It's saying it's being designed by Scott Metz. I don't recall that name and am having trouble finding out who he is or his work. Does anyone know who he works for or if he works for himself if he has a website? I'd like to see his work before gauging my interest in going to the historic review meeting.

Just got a notice about a new single family home to be built on the vacant lot at 1506 Race Street. Construction fences went up around the site and the neighboring building to the north a week or two ago. I figured we'd be seeing something new built here. It's saying it's being designed by Scott Metz. I don't recall that name and am having trouble finding out who he is or his work. Does anyone know who he works for or if he works for himself if he has a website? I'd like to see his work before gauging my interest in going to the historic review meeting.

 

Huh. I wonder if having a structure on that lot will make it harder to renovate the building to the north (1508 Race) when the time comes. 1508 is the one that had a hole in the back of the building that I complained to 3CDC about and has since been fixed.  But otherwise good news!

 

EDIT: I haven't heard anything to make me say this, but perhaps the two projects will be combined?

The fence is around both properties so I have a feeling it's going to either be done at the same time or be a part of the project in some way. But they're both surrounded by the same construction fence.

I suggest you listen to our recording of the Owner Occupied OTR session. It's two hours and only scratches the surface of the process.

 

I have heard that you can typically expect anything from $50/sq. ft. (for mostly cosmetic changes to a structurally sound building) up to $150/sq. ft. (complete rehab of a crumbling building).

 

I listened to the whole podcast (very interesting and informative) but I wish that the speakers had gone in to when they expect to start making a profit. The answer to that question might matter more than how much it will cost to rehab a building, though obviously they are tied together.

 

Well, as one of the speakers on that panel, I can tell you I don't expect to make a profit--just live in the finished project. 

General question....I have a buddy whose interested in buying some old homes in OTR and rehabbing and remodeling them and putting them back on the market. What's the low end and high end of what to expect in terms of cost, typically?

 

As someone rehabbing a house right now in OTR, I don't know that you can really peg something as "typical" cost-wise.  As Jim Uber has said, you can do it (relatively) inexpensively.  Or you can look at doing premium finishes, etc., which are really going to drive up the costs. 

 

A couple things I will say (that were probably said on the podcast):  the "low-hanging fruit" is pretty much impossible to come by.  By that I mean, it's not going to be feasible for an individual to come in, find a 2000 SF building a block off of Vine street, buy it inexpensively, and then rehab it.  Buying property that remains to be rehabbed south of Liberty is going to be an expensive proposition at this point.  North of Liberty there are still opportunities, but we're a few years away from the same sort of development taking off there that has already happened in OTR.

 

I will say that, frankly, if someone wants to really get the absolute most bang-for-the-buck investing, at this point, it's probably a guessing game of trying to figure out which neighborhood has the potential to be the next OTR.  Is it the West End?  Walnut Hills?  Price Hill?  Mt. Auburn?  Hard to say.  But that is where you're going to be able to find older homes/buildings that can still be purchased very inexpensively. 

Another new retail location opening in OTR.

 

This time Three Sweet Girls bakery: http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/06/23/three-sweet-girls-opening-otr-bakery.html

 

Target date for July 6th, on 29 E. 12th St. Will sell bake goods.

 

I got my wedding cupcakes from them. they were very good

There isn't going to be another "OTR".  There is no other place in the city where the buildings are so frustratingly large and expensive to renovate, yet no other place is within walking distance of downtown.

 

It's too much of a guessing game as to which of the depressed neighborhoods will come back first and strongest.  There are pluses and minuses to each.  The real steal might be Avondale, esp the streets that border North Avondale that have many almost perfectly intact arts & crafts bungalows listed around $70-80,000, and sometimes less.  These are just the sort of homes that people pay $250-350,000 for in other cities.  Avondale just north of MLK will become a desirable location after the MLK interchange opens. 

Getting a little off topic, but my bet is on Walnut Hills/East Walnut Hills (not saying it will be quite the same as OTR, just the next neighborhood to really spring up). The biggest thing holding it back is the terrible design of the Kroger on McMillan in WH. They are lucky to have a good grocery store, but the design of the exterior sucks.

 

The neighborhood contains the (arguably) best park in the city, Eden Park. It has a lot of tall, historic buildings on the main drag, it has large mansions and modest two-story homes. And it has a dedicated/competent redevelopment corporation and community council. They are currently seeking two-way street conversions through the business district, they have large tracts of land ripe for redevelopment, and they have the energy/excitement from a lot of people. They regularly plan good events (5 Points Alley Biergarten, Food Truck Festival, etc). They have quite a few neighborhood staples (Brew House, Greenwich, Susy Wong's), have had a lot of businesses open up in the last year (Fireside Pizza, Myrtle's Punch House, Growler House, Mardi Gras on Madison, etc) and more places opening soon (Angst Coffee, Woodburn Brewery, etc).

 

The biggest thing holding back Mt. Auburn is its lack of a business district. People want to walk to restaurants and stores, and Mt. Auburn has very few commercial businesses until you practically reach Corryville or Liberty Street in OTR, which is a long walk from some corner of the neighborhood.

SoBri is huge!

The neighborhood contains the (arguably) best park in the city, Eden Park. It has a lot of tall, historic buildings on the main drag, it has large mansions and modest two-story homes. And it has a dedicated/competent redevelopment corporation and community council. They are currently seeking two-way street conversions through the business district, they have large tracts of land ripe for redevelopment, and they have the energy/excitement from a lot of people. They regularly plan good events (5 Points Alley Biergarten, Food Truck Festival, etc). They have quite a few neighborhood staples (Brew House, Greenwich, Susy Wong's), have had a lot of businesses open up in the last year (Fireside Pizza, Myrtle's Punch House, Growler House, Mardi Gras on Madison, etc) and more places opening soon (Angst Coffee, Woodburn Brewery, etc).

 

And there are several huge new developments in the works that will really accelerate the pace of redeveloping Walnut Hills... stay tuned...

Most of the houses in Walnut Hills west of Woodburn and North of McMillan suck.  The houses on Burdette are slightly above average quality but still not that nice as compared to Clifton, North Avondale, or East Walnut Hills.  The houses between Gilbert and I-71 south of McMillan all suck.  Similarly most of Mt. Auburn's houses are big but not very nice.

 

Meanwhile a lot of the small houses in the north half of Avondale and in North Avondale are actually really, really nice.   

^But there is almost no movement on the business district on Reading Road.

 

Nice houses are great and all, but location is more important to a lot of people than the physical qualities of the house. I would argue there are more/greater amenities coming for Walnut Hills/East Walnut Hills than there are for Avondale/North Avondale. That is what's going to get people to move there.

 

People pick the neighborhood they want to live in before the house they want to live in.

I think similar to OTR in that there is a lot of space to develop just south of Liberty Street, in Walnut Hills the area bounded by Gilbert to the west, McMillan to the south, Victory to East and Eden Park to the south still has a huge amount of potential and there are some nice big homes there that mostly look like they are subdivided with maybe a few vacant, etc.  Also the Windsor Elementary School Development and Trevarren Flats is going to help out a ton.

 

Once that area gets filled up IMO, it will start spreading north of McMillan and possibly west of Gilbert.

 

Also, I see people are cleaning out the interior on the below commercial / residential building in East Walnut Hills on William Howard Taft.  I think William Howard Taft from this point to Madison could be a great urban neighborhood, and also the side streets around it with some nice homes / renovations but some that need some TLC.

 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cincinnati,+OH/@39.126998,-84.47535,3a,75y,71.05h,77.35t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1si__2c-Lkz9tXrRbOGaoyTQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Di__2c-Lkz9tXrRbOGaoyTQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D100%26h%3D80%26yaw%3D295.09775%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656!4m2!3m1!1s0x884051b1de3821f9:0x69fb7e8be4c09317!6m1!1e1

 

Take into that also the possible re development of the Anthem site and it should add a lot more momentum.

CAGIS says the city owns almost everything north of 13th and west of Sycamore. I just assumed it was already park land. If it's not there's no reason to keep it.

Sounds like a really cool project: http://www.soapboxmedia.com/innovationnews/063015-look-here-reveal-layers-of-otr-past.aspx

 

Several OTR projects were awarded (and denied) historic tax credits.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2015/06/30/cincinnati-tax-credit-awards/29507137/

 

Awarded

•Abington Flats, 33 Green St., Over-the-Rhine (3CDC/Model Group)

•Market Square A, 1808-10 Race St., Over-the-Rhine (Model Group)

•Market Square B, 1812 Race St. and 101 W. Elder St., Over-the-Rhine (Model Group)

•Warner Bros. Picture Building, 1600 Central Parkway, Over-the-Rhine (Grandin Properties)

 

Not Awarded

•Broadway Square II, Pendleton, applied for $1,468,210.

•Ophthalmic Hospital, Over-the-Rhine, applied for $732,950.

•Market Square at Findlay Market C, Over-the-Rhine, applied for $249,999.

•Mulberry Hill buildings, Over-the-Rhine, applied for $249,999.

•1737 Elm St., Over-the-Rhine, applied for $223,187.

•1500 Race St. storefront, Over-the-Rhine, applied for $188,763.

•Rutemueller Building, Pendleton, applied for $188,000.

•1527 Elm St., Over-the-Rhine, applied for $131,739.