I was wondering about that date when I posted it, thanks.

 

Still 1802 is extremely early for a non east coast American city.

 

I believe I read it was the first non east coast american city to be settled.

 

It still pisses me off that history happened the way it did.

 

Cincinnati and Chicago are so interchangeable. Cincinnati could have easily become Chicago today if it wasn't for a few setbacks in history, with a million plus population, and hundreds of skyscrapers, while Chicago could have easily become Cincinnati today.

 

 

 

I disagree.  Cincinnati could have been somewhat larger, and *perhaps* double its current size, but that would have required some dumb luck, and we are already very lucky to have had P&G happen here.  Basically we needed 3-4 other giant companies to have happened to have started here. 

 

I was wondering about that date when I posted it, thanks.

 

Still 1802 is extremely early for a non east coast American city.

 

I believe I read it was the first non east coast american city to be settled.

 

It still pisses me off that history happened the way it did.

 

Cincinnati and Chicago are so interchangeable. Cincinnati could have easily become Chicago today if it wasn't for a few setbacks in history, with a million plus population, and hundreds of skyscrapers, while Chicago could have easily become Cincinnati today.

 

 

 

I disagree.  Cincinnati could have been somewhat larger, and *perhaps* double its current size, but that would have required some dumb luck, and we are already very lucky to have had P&G happen here.  Basically we needed 3-4 other giant companies to have happened to have started here. 

 

 

To get really big, a city has to have a period of time when things *had* to be in that location.  An obvious example is Hong Kong during the Communist era.  San Francisco was the only protected harbor for hundreds of miles, NYC was a deep water port at the mouth of a large river, etc. 

 

Cincinnati only had a very brief period of time when things *had* to be here.  If technology had progressed more slowly, perhaps Cincinnati would have grown somewhat larger in the 1800s because there would have been no viable alternatives.  But the fact is that the straight line of cities along the south shores of the Great Lakes is a big deal, and Chicago was the obvious jumping-off point from all of that commerce to the agrarian Midwest.  And Chicago had nothing but flat land in all directions, so big money stooges couldn't hoard all of it as happened in Cincinnati. 

 

 

 

I was wondering about that date when I posted it, thanks.

 

Still 1802 is extremely early for a non east coast American city.

 

I believe I read it was the first non east coast american city to be settled.

 

It still pisses me off that history happened the way it did.

 

Cincinnati and Chicago are so interchangeable. Cincinnati could have easily become Chicago today if it wasn't for a few setbacks in history, with a million plus population, and hundreds of skyscrapers, while Chicago could have easily become Cincinnati today.

 

 

 

I disagree.  Cincinnati could have been somewhat larger, and *perhaps* double its current size, but that would have required some dumb luck, and we are already very lucky to have had P&G happen here.  Basically we needed 3-4 other giant companies to have happened to have started here.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my history class always taught me that things are the way they currently are (the difference of size between the 2 cities) is due to steam boats and canals losing popularity for transporting goods compared to that of trains.

 

From what I understand Cincinnati used to be the number 1 importer/exporter of pork due to Cincinnati's location on the Ohio River, thus the name Porkopolis. But because of the invention of the train, and the growing popularity for trains to move goods, Chicago became a central hub for that, and thus grew in size in relation to that

 

 

I disagree on a few fronts.  I don't think you will see the people who live in OTR up and move to the suburbs just because they have kids.  Many more families with kids are moving and staying in OTR (like mine).  Move to Hyde Park?  Maybe, yeah, I could see that.  But if you've lived in OTR, it's not easy to up and move to Maineville. 

 

And I don't think that the people who built OTR expected it to be disposable as you seem to think, TroyEros.  Many of these folks were German craftsman--and whether they were German or not, when you have European immigrants in the 1800s building things, they are coming from places where buildings have stood for hundreds of years (and where they still stand).  I don't think they were building things in the 1800s in Cincinnati expecting them to fall down; I think they figured they would be around for a long time, just like the buildings in Europe where they used to live. 

 

I can say this as the owner of 3 combined buildings (1860s, 1880s, and 1920s for those three), these things were built incredibly solidly.  They are not disposable tract houses built in the 1960s.  Heck, if you need any more proof of it, just look at the vacant buildings that remain.  Most of those have been vacant for a long time--in some cases, decades.  Yet still they stand, with very little care and lots of neglect.  Do you think if you left a house built in Mason or Sharonville or Colerain in the 1960 or 1970s vacant for 20 or 30 years that it would still be standing? 

Are there any threads around here for continuing this discussion of Cincinnati's historical growth patterns, or is it appropriate in this thread? I'd be interested in hearing more about why/how the city and its neighborhoods grew in the ways they did.

I'm always curious why the German heritage that was so strong in OTR just up and vanished. I have a hunch its because of WW2 and ethnic racism turn germans.

Cars and fed govt policies encouraged people with money to move out of the urban core and live in the suburbs. WWI and WWII discouraged German heritage and many German businesses closed or renamed. Destruction of Kenyon-Barr/West End pushed African Americans from the west side of the city into OTR where housing was now cheap because it was undesirable, which further pushed the German ancestors out of the area because of societal racism.

 

It took place over several decades.

Cars and fed govt policies encouraged people with money to move out of the urban core and live in the suburbs. WWI and WWII discouraged German heritage and many German businesses closed or renamed. Destruction of Kenyon-Barr/West End pushed African Americans from the west side of the city into OTR where housing was now cheap because it was undesirable, which further pushed the German ancestors out of the area because of societal racism.

 

It took place over several decades.

 

Huh interesting.

 

So fascinating how one neighborhood like Over the Rhine can tell a whole story about what made Cincinnati thrive (the celebration of german heritage), and what made Cincinnati ultimately die (said german residents, giving up there identities, and moving out of OTR and into the suburbs). It's almost as if you can say that Over the Rhine is Cincinnati's beating heart. It's the key to the past, and to the future.

Troy I actually disagree.  OTR would still be here but I think way more skyscrapers would've been built going West especially around Union Terminal. 

I was wondering about that date when I posted it, thanks.

 

Still 1802 is extremely early for a non east coast American city.

 

I believe I read it was the first non east coast american city to be settled.

 

It still pisses me off that history happened the way it did.

 

Cincinnati and Chicago are so interchangeable. Cincinnati could have easily become Chicago today if it wasn't for a few setbacks in history, with a million plus population, and hundreds of skyscrapers, while Chicago could have easily become Cincinnati today.

 

 

 

I disagree.  Cincinnati could have been somewhat larger, and *perhaps* double its current size, but that would have required some dumb luck, and we are already very lucky to have had P&G happen here.  Basically we needed 3-4 other giant companies to have happened to have started here. 

 

 

To get really big, a city has to have a period of time when things *had* to be in that location.  An obvious example is Hong Kong during the Communist era.  San Francisco was the only protected harbor for hundreds of miles, NYC was a deep water port at the mouth of a large river, etc. 

 

Cincinnati only had a very brief period of time when things *had* to be here.  If technology had progressed more slowly, perhaps Cincinnati would have grown somewhat larger in the 1800s because there would have been no viable alternatives.  But the fact is that the straight line of cities along the south shores of the Great Lakes is a big deal, and Chicago was the obvious jumping-off point from all of that commerce to the agrarian Midwest.  And Chicago had nothing but flat land in all directions, so big money stooges couldn't hoard all of it as happened in Cincinnati. 

 

 

 

 

I agree with Jake on this point, however there are odd exceptions and that's usually due to sheer cultural willpower.  A good example is Seattle Vs Tacoma - Tacoma was where the railroad ended and was in a natural port, probably one of the best in the US part of the pacific northwest, but Tacoma never became the alpha US city of the region, Seattle did, and Seattle did largely because of a campaign of boosterism that was extremely successful leading a less than ideal port to be the primary city of its superregion.  Cincinnati doesn't have that kind of thing in its cultural DNA - it could have taken a route where it tried to fight against the natural/political barriers that were against it being a major inland cultural center/city but it didn't really do so and eventually developed into a place weary of new ideas that it is today.  I am wondering though when that cultural conservatism took hold because it seems for a time Cincy was an innovative place?

 

Furthermore Chicago's growth was largely due to rail surpassing canals as a means of transport.  Chicago was at a better location to take advantage of both rail and canals due to a gap in the Appalachian mountains making it far easier to connect to New York City and the east coast.  Its connection to the frontier was stronger too due to the canal/rail corridor's proximity to the Missouri River.  Finally, the Civil War devastated the south, and much of Cincy's business was it being an inland connector between the rural south to the industrial north - with a weakened south that weakened Cincinnati as a whole.

 

P&G was a very fortunate thing and Cincy was still a pretty strong city until about 1950 or so (San Francisco or Boston of the same time period were pretty comparable cities, I think the divergence between the three started to happen after this point).  Today, Cincy still has some impressive legacy institutions but it really needs to work on leveraging them to stick out from the pack - working on its conservative and detached/provincial outlook would help as well.

I was wondering about that date when I posted it, thanks.

 

Still 1802 is extremely early for a non east coast American city.

 

I believe I read it was the first non east coast american city to be settled.

 

It still pisses me off that history happened the way it did.

 

Cincinnati and Chicago are so interchangeable. Cincinnati could have easily become Chicago today if it wasn't for a few setbacks in history, with a million plus population, and hundreds of skyscrapers, while Chicago could have easily become Cincinnati today.

 

 

 

I disagree.  Cincinnati could have been somewhat larger, and *perhaps* double its current size, but that would have required some dumb luck, and we are already very lucky to have had P&G happen here.  Basically we needed 3-4 other giant companies to have happened to have started here. 

 

 

To get really big, a city has to have a period of time when things *had* to be in that location.  An obvious example is Hong Kong during the Communist era.  San Francisco was the only protected harbor for hundreds of miles, NYC was a deep water port at the mouth of a large river, etc. 

 

Cincinnati only had a very brief period of time when things *had* to be here.  If technology had progressed more slowly, perhaps Cincinnati would have grown somewhat larger in the 1800s because there would have been no viable alternatives.  But the fact is that the straight line of cities along the south shores of the Great Lakes is a big deal, and Chicago was the obvious jumping-off point from all of that commerce to the agrarian Midwest.  And Chicago had nothing but flat land in all directions, so big money stooges couldn't hoard all of it as happened in Cincinnati. 

 

 

 

 

I agree with Jake on this point, however there are odd exceptions and that's usually due to sheer cultural willpower.  A good example is Seattle Vs Tacoma - Tacoma was where the railroad ended and was in a natural port, probably one of the best in the US part of the pacific northwest, but Tacoma never became the alpha US city of the region, Seattle did, and Seattle did largely because of a campaign of boosterism that was extremely successful leading a less than ideal port to be the primary city of its superregion.  Cincinnati doesn't have that kind of thing in its cultural DNA - it could have taken a route where it tried to fight against the natural/political barriers that were against it being a major inland cultural center/city but it didn't really do so and eventually developed into a place weary of new ideas that it is today.  I am wondering though when that cultural conservatism took hold because it seems for a time Cincy was an innovative place?

 

Furthermore Chicago's growth was largely due to rail surpassing canals as a means of transport.  Chicago was at a better location to take advantage of both rail and canals due to a gap in the Appalachian mountains making it far easier to connect to New York City and the east coast.  Its connection to the frontier was stronger too due to the canal/rail corridor's proximity to the Missouri River.  Finally, the Civil War devastated the south, and much of Cincy's business was it being an inland connector between the rural south to the industrial north - with a weakened south that weakened Cincinnati as a whole.

 

P&G was a very fortunate thing and Cincy was still a pretty strong city until about 1950 or so.  It still has some impressive legacy institutions but it really needs to work on leveraging them to stick out from the pack.

 

What it needs is jobs!

 

The brandery/cincytech/etc are all good steps forward.

 

We need these innovative entrepreneurs, creating businesses and vital brands, and most importantly valuing the city alongside it.

 

I think that's what the Brandery is trying to do, in incorporating mentor ship with a mix of OTR/Cincinnati pride.

 

Funny enough though, I've made a few friends who attend the brandery, and are out of staters. Alot of them say the same thing. They love Over the Rhine, and say how's there nothing like it in America. Truly a painting of Americana come to life. But when it comes to the rest of Cincinnati, they don't really seem to care.

 

I've noticed that alot. Huge pride and love for OTR for whatever reason, but the rest of Cincinnati is kind of ignored. There kinda like "meh"

^-This is kind of why on this forum we wish for better transit in Cincinnnati, it would allow for greater connectivity between different parts of the region and tie things together better.  Right now Cincy is a series of villages and doesn't act like its its own cohesive town.

 

Though there are also cultural reasons for this, people have developed a stick in the mud tribal attitude, something Cranley exploited which basically means my parish/kroger/neighborhood is better than yours and who cares about anything else.

 

I love a ton of neighborhoods in Cincinnati though when I lived there I felt weird that I was so comfortable exploring stuff outside of my comfort zone, few people actually did that.  This HAS to change if Cincy is to realize its potential I think starting with making the question "What high school did you go to?" as ridiculous to Cincy as it is to the outside world.

 

Finally professional jobs are pretty strong in Cincy (lack of low skill jobs are a problem everywhere in the US, so the issue is more national policy), but due to the culture having a reputation as being backwards and most people not realizing just how beautiful Cincy's core is they look it over.  The real way to encourage growth in Cincy is to not sabotage its economic foundations but instead rewrite its culture to allow for more acceptance of the outside world and more appreciation of its assets in the context of the rest of the country.

That question's prominence is overstated. If someone is from Cincinnati, I'll ask them because it tells me where they grew up. I've never had someone assume I was from Cincinnati and ask me what high school I went to before establishing I'm from Cincinnati.

 

This tribal attitude is literally in every city. I have friends in Chicago who rarely go outside of a couple neighborhoods (the one they live in, the one they work in, and the one or two they go out in if they are all different). You pick the places you like and you stay in those places.

That question's prominence is overstated. If someone is from Cincinnati, I'll ask them because it tells me where they grew up. I've never had someone assume I was from Cincinnati and ask me what high school I went to before establishing I'm from Cincinnati.

 

This tribal attitude is literally in every city. I have friends in Chicago who rarely go outside of a couple neighborhoods (the one they live in, the one they work in, and the one or two they go out in if they are all different). You pick the places you like and you stay in those places.

 

There are like 10 or 12 neighborhoods I regularly visit in Chicago and if you tell someone to go to a neighborhood that's a bit far from where they live (and the distances are much larger here) they aren't scared to do it. I don't know how many freakin' times I couldn't get people I knew in Cincy to do crap just because it was a place on the west side, or a restaurant they weren't familiar with or it was a place they had prejudged before even going to it.  The attitudes here are far less provincial.

 

Also unless you live in like Bridgeport, Jefferson Park, Beverly or Franklin Park which have reputations for being provincial, NO ONE asks what high school you went to NO ONE.

 

I got asked that question many times in Cincy and I was puzzled by it, because well I went to a public school in a suburb of Dayton, who cares.

People assume you aren't from Chicago if you live in a cool/prominent/trendy area of Chicago. If you live in the South Side, far west side, or suburbs, I'm sure there are a lot more people who were born and raised in Chicago. Chicago has way more new residents than Cincinnati. No one expects you to be from Chicago if you live in Chicago.

People assume you aren't from Chicago if you live in a cool/prominent/trendy area of Chicago. Chicago has way more new residents than Cincinnati. No one expects you to be from Chicago if you live in Chicago.

 

Still I never got nearly as much of that in the Dayton area.  Though a large part of that is the lack of identity Dayton has its not a neighborhood city the way that Cincinnati is.

 

I am wondering though what would break that?  What would allow Cincinnati to be more accepting of the fact that outsiders do exist and the world is different outside their little bubble?

I really feel like the pocket neighborhoods here have a lot to do with it. In NYC you could literally walk the distance from the river to 275 with a consistent unbroken street wall. It's seems like some subconscious turn-off for people when they have to travel through areas that aren't inhabited or are economically depressed. Maybe it makes the trip seem longer, I dunno, but in New York at least, no matter where you went you sort of felt a general inclusion, greater safety, and connection with the areas around you.

Ive NEVER been asked by a Cincinnatian where I went to high school.  Ive lived in the area, post high school, since 1984.

 

I went home with people during college for weekends in many cities around the country.  Boston, several cities along NJ Transit lines, Chicago, New Orleans, Atlanta, Cleveland, Denver...and other much smaller towns.  I was amazed how few people in each one of these places traveled much beyond their little bubble of where they grew up.  I could usually tell those people more about their town then they ever knew, and I may have never been there before.  i was able to tour guide people through their own city!

 

I think this forum attracts someone who is more likely to be of the exploring mindset.  I think many here dont realize how small the world is for many Americans.  They may have a car, but they only use it to go to their local grocery, and venture a bit further to go to mall. 

Going to be in Cincy this weekend and will have a good deal of time between Saturday and the Fireworks on Sunday to do some exploring. I haven't been back for a good amount of time in over 2 years. Name some highlights I should see/do, please. So much has changed since I moved away!

Going to be in Cincy this weekend and will have a good deal of time between Saturday and the Fireworks on Sunday to do some exploring. I haven't been back for a good amount of time in over 2 years. Name some highlights I should see/do, please. So much has changed since I moved away!

 

Check out:

 

-Smale Rivefront Park

-Check out the latest developments in OTR (especially around Vine).

-Stop by Taft Ale House on Race street in OTR. Won't regret it.

 

Honesty the most that has changed in 2 years is probably the advancment of The Banks/Smale Riverfront Park, and the current ongoing redevelopment of Washington Park/OTR

 

 

 

Going to be in Cincy this weekend and will have a good deal of time between Saturday and the Fireworks on Sunday to do some exploring. I haven't been back for a good amount of time in over 2 years. Name some highlights I should see/do, please. So much has changed since I moved away!

 

You will probably be surprised by all of the one-off developments on streets like Republic, Pleasant, Elm, etc.  In particular, take a walk down Republic and you will see new businesses, buildings being renovated, and new infill going in on vacant lots.

 

Of course if you haven't checked out any of the major new restaurants and breweries, you'll want to do that... Rhinegeist, Taft's, The Eagle, Pontiac, Eli's BBQ at Findlay.

Thanks guys - sounds like just walking around (despite the ridiculous heat and humidity this weekend) will be my best bet. A pilgrimage to Bakersfield is on tap, along with taking some friends from Louisville on a brewery hop with maybe dinner at Arnold's. What are all the breweries that are open around OTR/DT within walking distance? Rhinegeist, Taft's Alehouse, ...?

 

Also want to get down to Smale Park. Last time I was there it was only built to the Suspension Bridge, and it was completely finished to that point either. I plan to stop by UC to check out the renovated Nip. Not going to the game though. Also possible in the Walnut Hill music thing - I got an invite to that on FB from a friend from undergrad at UC. Aside from that and Riverfest, any other events going on around town? The enquirer's a pain to find shit on, and I don't have nearly the connections in Cincy that I once did.

Moerlein tap room on Moore Street is much nicer now than it was 2 years ago.

If you can do it, take a side trip to Northside and check out Urban Artifact, lots of very unusual beers there (sours) that are really good its also an adaptive reuse of a chruch but I'm not sure if they have the sanctuary open yet - right now its operating out of the basement.

 

Tafts and Urban Artifact were the highlights of my last trip down to Cincy.

Braxton has a really nice tap room too. You should check it out if you have time.

2 new businesses are coming to OTR this September/October.

 

Corporate (a high end collectible store for shoes and apparel) will open right next to the Mercer, and The Candle Lab will open its first Cincinnati location (where you can make your own scented candles) on Vine right next to Union Hall.

^Aren't both of those businesses going into 3CDC buildings?

Where is there a space right next to The Mercer? I can't think of any open storefronts on that side of the street from Central all the way up to Kaze.

 

Edit: Just looked it up. I took that as next door, not directly across the street. But yes, it'll be right next to The Mercer.

 

 

 

The address in the 2 links

The Mohawk Distirct has finally been designated as a Historic District on Ohio Register.

 

https://www.facebook.com/OTRBreweryDistrict

There are 3 connected buildings on the site.  The 1988 building facing Elm is two story with basement.  The middle building was a garage, one-story, no basement.  The westernmost part of the site is a three story Teamsters Hall that is probably from the 30s and is pretty cool.

 

That Teamsters Hall (217 West Twelfth St) is on the Sanborn Maps going back pretty far...http://virtuallibrary.cincinnatilibrary.org/lib/31/381/page-65.pdf

 

I'm not really sure what year the Teamsters Hall first appeared. The Auditor's site lists it as dating back to 1900. Anybody know what the inside of that building is like?

 

 

The YMCA building is crazy inside. I got to tour it while under construction a week ago and while it is only 9 "stories" tall it has 23 different floor levels inside from years of additions and refurbs. It's a really complicated project that will have a really nice workout space when done. And yes all the upper floors over the 3rd story brick band are senior housing being done by Model, the YMCA portion is by 3CDC.

 

Looking at the Sanborn maps, I saw that there once was a bowling alley in the basement of the YMCA building: http://virtuallibrary.cincinnatilibrary.org/lib/31/381/page-65.pdf

 

Any idea if that is still there?

Here's a picture of the YMCA on the Sanborn map:

(Nevermind - the forum is having issues letting me upload jpegs).

The YMCA building is crazy inside. I got to tour it while under construction a week ago and while it is only 9 "stories" tall it has 23 different floor levels inside from years of additions and refurbs. It's a really complicated project that will have a really nice workout space when done. And yes all the upper floors over the 3rd story brick band are senior housing being done by Model, the YMCA portion is by 3CDC.

 

Looking at the Sanborn maps, I saw that there once was a bowling alley in the basement of the YMCA building: http://virtuallibrary.cincinnatilibrary.org/lib/31/381/page-65.pdf

 

Any idea if that is still there?

 

I'm thinking no... I was a member there when I lived in OTR and the basement level had the main lifting equipment and a locker room. From my recollection and the layout from this map, I think that locker room would be roughly where the bowling alley may have been.

Can't find any mention of 15th and Vine project on 3cdc website or any recent news about it... Is it on indefinite hold?

This just blows my mind: Police called over 2,000 times in Shell OTR Gas Station

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/09/14/police-made-nearly-2k-runs--otr-shell-gas-station--two-years/72054810/

 

Seriously? I mean, I understand OTR is still in working progress in terms of gentrification, but that's just an incredible statistic. I'm just so curious, even considering it's location and that it's frequently used, why is this such a hub for criminal activity?

 

I mean everytime I go there, especially at night I feel sketchy as hell. The homeless usually like to hang out there, and buy beer. Very intimidating people. Hell, a friend of mine who lives in OTR, he got "knifed" when he was filling up car in the DAY time at 7am. Homeless man got pissed when he didn't offer him any spare change, and decided to pull out his knife and corner him. Luckily my friend is ex military and was able to disarm him, and get out of there unharmed.

 

But still, how the hell can one spot, especially one that's visited so frequently be so centralized for illicit crime? You would think the amount of people would DETER crime, rather than attract even further crime?

 

 

That Shell is basically the only place I've bought gas for the last 5 years or so and I have never had a problem. I lived on the corner of Walnut and Liberty for 3 of those years and don't remember seeing the cops that often. That stat seems almost unbelievable. I wonder if they count every call as a call for service – so if 20 people call in about the same issue, they count it 20 times. It’s so busy I could imagine multiple calls every time something goes wrong.

^I'm pretty sure they do. There is no way that cops are being called out there 2.5 times a day.

 

There are definitely times of day where that station is a less than ideal location to get gas. I've had a handful of problems there and usually just get gas at the Hyde Park Kroger these days since I work nearby and get the fuel perks anyway. But I have definitely been aggressively asked for change and a simple "no" prompted a very angry response despite the fact that I really do never have any cash on me. But even then I have trouble imagining that the police really are showing up every 9-10 hours for something.

That Shell station is a hub of crime in the community.  The 2,000 number actually seems pretty low to me.  I'm sure it's that way since it doesn't include crime that goes unreported.

The article mentioned "corporate" improvements were coming to the shell?

 

During the night it gets pretty dark, could adding extremely bright beam lights, and light up the surrounding area deter any of the crime away? Otherwise, I'm not sure what the improvements could entail

I really hope the solution isn't to create obnoxiously bright lights. People DO live right around there and that type of lighting is awful at night. This doesn't need to be lit up like a prison.

I really hope the solution isn't to create obnoxiously bright lights. People DO live right around there and that type of lighting is awful at night. This doesn't need to be lit up like a prison.

 

Then what do you do to make that shell station safer? There's already a cop that sits right next to the shell during the night time, and patrols around the shell, and STILL crime and robberies happen on a near daily occurrence.

Merely updating aspects of it and making it nicer is a pretty good deterrent to crime. As it stands now that shell isn't in awful shape, but it's also not all that nice either. A period of reinvestment and reconstruction can push crime away and a nicer product often stops it from coming back. Perception change is the best fix to a problem.

You can light up an outdoor space without resorting to industrial high-intensity discharge flood lights or highway-spec cobraheads.  Super bright, glaring, ugly lighting comes from trying to use as few fixtures as possible and throwing the light out on the broadest area, which really isn't appropriate.  Also the bluer metal halide, fluorescent, and LED fixtures usually used at gas stations are quite harsh with their 4000-5000K color temperature compared to the warmer and what most people consider much more pleasant 2800-3000K light from incandescent or halogen lamps.  Hopefully as LEDs continue to improve and become less expensive, we'll see more of those 2800K fixtures which are still a bit of a niche because they don't achieve quite as good an efficiency or light output as the more blue looking ones. 

The problem isn't so much the Shell station specifically, but the amount of disinvestment all along Liberty Street. There are solutions to that problem but they're not as simple as putting up more lighting.

Merely updating aspects of it and making it nicer is a pretty good deterrent to crime. As it stands now that shell isn't in awful shape, but it's also not all that nice either. A period of reinvestment and reconstruction can push crime away and a nicer product often stops it from coming back. Perception change is the best fix to a problem.

Yes this is absolutely true. Criminals just do not like "nice" places. That means places that are clean, and have good and well maintained facilities. I've seen this work first hand at my place on a small scale. For a while I had a problem with public urination and defecation, and I also had some fill material stored on site from my patio project. One time I caught a neighborhood dude pissing and chewed him out. He pretty pointedly told me "hey if you want to solve this problem, then clean your place up. People have been doing this here for 30 years so don't expect it to change just cause you want it to." I decided to listen to him and since that time it's been much quieter.

 

So yeah, good lighting can be helpful, but mostly if the lighting indicates "hey someone here cares." It has to convey a sense of a quality space, not a warehouse. I'm sure a good landscape architect would have lots of ideas about how to improve that Shell corner, and I hope they take that route.

This is why I'm still in the "group" that would be afraid to live in OTR.

 

I've met alot of young professional residents who live South of Liberty on Main/Vine and what not. Yes, crime is getting less and less. But at the end of the day your sort of in a bubble of sorts, with crime still being very prevalent just a few blocks away. And honestly, when doing a simple task like getting gas is a frightful task because your afraid you might be mugged, or worse, then the livability aspect should really be in question here.

 

What's worse is that many of the young professionals have families with small kids. I can't imagine my children getting hurt late at night because I just wanted to fill up my car with gas.

 

I'm sure 10 years from now when progress occurs North of Liberty OTR will be a great place to live and raise a family. But right now I just feel like you have to be like the settlers who moved out west and were constantly bombarded by attacked from the Native Americans...

 

 

This is why I'm still in the "group" that would be afraid to live in OTR.

 

I've met alot of young professional residents who live South of Liberty on Main/Vine and what not. Yes, crime is getting less and less. But at the end of the day your sort of in a bubble of sorts, with crime still being very prevalent just a few blocks away. And honestly, when doing a simple task like getting gas is a frightful task because your afraid you might be mugged, or worse, then the livability aspect should really be in question here.

 

What's worse is that many of the young professionals have families with small kids. I can't imagine my children getting hurt late at night because I just wanted to fill up my car with gas.

 

I'm sure 10 years from now when progress occurs North of Liberty OTR will be a great place to live and raise a family. But right now I just feel like you have to be like the settlers who moved out west and were constantly bombarded by attacked from the Native Americans...

 

 

 

You cannot change an area without taking action.  Some people are more willing to take the risk than others and they will trailblaze the path for those who are more risk-averse.

Main Street OTR’s next meeting is tomorrow (Sept. 15) at 5:30pm at Venue 222. Matthew Andrews and Diego Jordan from the City’s Department of Transportation and Engineering will be making a presentation about the new streetlights and trees planned for Main Street.

 

I won't be able to attend so it would be great if someone could attend and post an update here!

But right now I just feel like you have to be like the settlers who moved out west and were constantly bombarded by attacked from the Native Americans...

 

I've lived in OTR for about 1.5 years and frequented the neighborhood from the time I turned 21 in 2010 until I moved down here. A lot of my friends live in the neighborhood as well from the 12th and Vine area all the way up to McMicken. I used to frequent my friend's place on McMicken before it was purchased by someone else and his rent wasn't renewed. I have yet to have a single serious issue and the only incident any of my friends have experienced firsthand is a car or two being broken into. We're not trailblazing, that already happened. There are still problems, but that's because this is real life.