That's good news. Hopefully it's run better than its earlier version a couple buildings north. I'll have to check it out.

 

They will not be selling alcohol or tobacco

That's good news. Hopefully it's run better than its earlier version a couple buildings north. I'll have to check it out.

 

They will not be selling alcohol or tobacco

 

What are they planning to do with the building the old market was in?

Does anyone know where this is/details about the project:

 

It's from joseph creighton (the owner of cheapside), but it's not the new ice cream place on main st, nor is it his new bar mecca on walnut. I can't really decipher where that is, but the only the thing I understand is that it will be a restaurant/bar.

 

Also the brush factory is also opening up an otr store front location, but I don't know where that will be either.

Does anyone know where this is/details about the project:

 

It's from joseph creighton (the owner of cheapside), but it's not the new ice cream place on main st, nor is it his new bar mecca on walnut. I can't really decipher where that is, but the only the thing I understand is that it will be a restaurant/bar.

 

Also the brush factory is also opening up an otr store front location, but I don't know where that will be either.

 

It is tagged as Dayton Street Historic District, which is in the West End.

The geo tag is off. There's alot of places on Instagram tagged in the wrong areas. Plus it wouldn't make sense to have a restaurant there. There is literally nothing but blight there currently in the west end.

 

It's definitely in otr but I can't figure out where.

It really is in the West End, on Dayton Street. They are rehabbing a house.

I don't know anything about this specific property, but Dayton Street Historic District is in the West End and it's definitely not blight.

I understand that, I'm just confused where they found a storefront. That street is full of houses... Not that I'm complaining. I would love to connect the old West end to otr as and extension of a larger entertainment district.

It's not a storefront, it's a patio door. This is the rear of a building on Dayton Street backing up to Naehler.  There's a carriage house right on Naehler too so it forms sort of a rear courtyard.  It's the house with the green roof in front, they tore off the little one-story addition in back.  https://goo.gl/maps/9WWgmds89wx

The old west end is such a tricky matter.

 

On one hand there's sections of the west end where it's incredibly intact even more so than OTR, and then you have other stretches where it's like a complete wasteland and needs so much infill work. I just have no idea how you even begin to go about tackling that district :/

 

I can't even imagine how far we are from having the west end be on the radars of the big players like 3cdc and the like. On one hand it's the perfect accompaniment to OTR. There's no reason that these homes couldn't fetch well over half a million or more as OTR increases in property value. But at the same time, I feel like OTR in itself is a project that will take at least 20 years to fully complete, and I'm afraid that the Old West end will continue to deteriorate as OTR is being caught up. 

The West End's redevelopment will happen one block at a time, the same way it's happening in OTR. The only question is, how many building will we lose in the mean time due to fires and collapses.

 

Greater Cincinnati is not growing very fast population-wise. We do not impose any impediments to stop or slow sprawl. We do not have urban growth or urban service boundaries. Those factors means that urban redevelopment and historic preservation projects will continue at the fairly slow pace. If any of those factors were different, we'd see the city growing more quickly.

The more jobs we can get downtown and OTR, and connecting Uptown to the basin better, the faster the rehabs will grow.

 

A problem most people have also is crime rates.  People won't even look into doing rehabs when there are areas of high crime, and the most major way to do this is taking dilapidated buildings and returning them to usable residences or businesses and having watch over the streets, but that's hard for individuals to do on their own because of their risk factors.

I work in the West End (I'm in it right  now) and I'm here almost everyday. In my experience spending my days here for the past 4 years, I'll say that I don't see much of an independent movement sparking any kind of expansion out of OTR. I feel like it will take some sort of concentrated effort by the city (a la 3CDC) to bring forth any real change. Petty crime, littering and vandalism are major issues over here, and the lack of continuity in the building stock of most streets will make it difficult to get any unification until structures are built to fill these gaps. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but OTR didn't happen because a bunch of individual owners stepped in and bought those buildings to re-hab. Also Lynn and Liberty streets have established the neighborhood as a pass-through to get to the highway. Both streets, as well as Ezzard Charles, are in need of returning to pre 1950s scale. One last thing, the gentrification argument would be much more valid in the West End, and probably need to be handled with great care.

^^Nobody wants to be the first on the block to dump money into a building.

 

Which is why it'll happen slowly, one block at a time as Travis mentioned. Generally what happens is one urban pioneer will fix up a house or a multi-family building and do a great job resulting in their building being the lone rehabbed building on the block. But that alone makes other investors FAR more comfortable with that block since someone already took the first step of beginning the process on that block. Then when development has filled that block (or at least cleaned it up a nice amount) it then jumps to a neighboring block people were too afraid to touch. And so on and so forth.

 

Unless something major happens like 3CDC deciding to work in the West End, this is likely how the process will go for the foreseeable future.

That's why it was interesting for me to see Joseph Creighton establishing a new restaurant/bar in the old west end. He's a pretty wealthy restaurateur (owner of cheapside, at the rookwood resturaunt). It makes me wonder why out of all the places remaining in OTR he chose the old west end?

 

Same goes for the Brush Factory setting up there retail shop in the old west end as well. It just makes me curious, why are we seeing this become an area of interest to business owners, especially when there's so much left to redevelop in OTR? 

That's why it was interesting for me to see Joseph Creighton establishing a new restaurant/bar in the old west end. He's a pretty wealthy restaurateur (owner of cheapside, at the rookwood resturaunt). It makes me wonder why out of all the places remaining in OTR he chose the old west end?

 

Same goes for the Brush Factory setting up there retail shop in the old west end as well. It just makes me curious, why are we seeing this become an area of interest to business owners, especially when there's so much left to redevelop in OTR?

 

Pretty sure you're confused about Creighton's renovation project. He is renovating a single family house on Dayton St, not opening a new restaurant.

I think if there could be some more retail on Central in Brighton then the northern part of the neighborhood would have a lot more leverage for attracting residents. Things like the slaughterhouse don't really help make it a desirable place to have a home or business. Also the massive park, which is nice enough, and the size of Bank street disconnect this little part of the neighborhood from the residential portions. Along with Central PKWY to the north, Brighton is sort of isolated and a driving destination more than a walking one for the locals. It's a shame that the Baymiller pedestrian bridge was torn down and not replaced, that again could have been a great way to connect Brighton to more residential areas. Perhaps someday these places can unify again, and have more of an influence as a whole, rather than separate parts that can't help each other. I guess what I'm saying is that the West End is residential, and though close to OTR, would significantly benefit from having a strong business district providing jobs for residence and incentivising people to invest and stay for a long time. Right now I feel Lynn and Liberty are not well suited to be the heart of the neighborhood, since those streets were designed for high traffic flow and not walkability.

The old west end is such a tricky matter.

 

On one hand there's sections of the west end where it's incredibly intact even more so than OTR, and then you have other stretches where it's like a complete wasteland and needs so much infill work. I just have no idea how you even begin to go about tackling that district :/

 

I can't even imagine how far we are from having the west end be on the radars of the big players like 3cdc and the like. On one hand it's the perfect accompaniment to OTR. There's no reason that these homes couldn't fetch well over half a million or more as OTR increases in property value. But at the same time, I feel like OTR in itself is a project that will take at least 20 years to fully complete, and I'm afraid that the Old West end will continue to deteriorate as OTR is being caught up. 

 

The West End is the historic heart of Cincinnati's African American community, dating way back in the city's history.  There was a thriving black community in the West End before the great migration of blacks from the south to northern and western cities, and this community was largely destroyed by urban renewal (Queensgate) and I-75.  There would absolutely need to be a very, VERY delicate approach taken to any sort of top-down revitalization efforts (ala 3CDC), and I would hate to see the Troy Eros fantasy of half million dollar homes take over the West End.  From a social justice perspective, that's just messed up, and it's alarming to see how little some people regard the people who currently live there, who have already had their neighborhood all but destroyed many times over at this point.

 

That said, the West End is certainly not a healthy neighborhood, and the residents there do deserve better.  They deserve transit access, walkable business districts, and clean and safe parks just as much as the new residents of OTR, and I think that is the approach the city should take in trying to build a healthier West End.  Extend transit there (either in the form of a streetcar/light rail/BRT), throw some incentives at developers to spark new construction like what is being done in Avondale, and let the community grow organically. 

 

Finally, a question for Troy Eros.  You seem to be obsessed with creating an ultra luxe urban core in Cincinnati by constantly stating how much you'd love to see million dollar homes everywhere, and how OTR is just going to become some wealthy enclave with luxury retail and million dollar condos everywhere.  Even though redevelopment initiatives from the beginning of 3CDC's existence have stressed (at least publicly) a desire for a mixed income, diverse neighborhood, this doesn't seem to be your goal at all.  While we obviously disagree on this, my question for you is where do you think all this wealth is going to come from? Cincy isn't Dubai.  We're a modestly sized city that does have some substantial pockets of wealth, but not so much that there's just this huge market for urban luxury housing extending from the river to Brighton.  Without substantially growing the economy here, which simply isn't going to happen, where are all these rich people going to come from to live in the West End? Will Hyde Park become a ghetto neighborhood and its mansions subdivided into apartments? Your posts demonstrate a really superficial understanding both of economics and local population dynamics, and frankly I find them tiring.

^ Perhaps they are an OTR property owner. Seems everyone who is would just love values to keep going up. I have to be honest I get a little jealous of those who were able to get in on the ground floor. When I moved here 10 years ago I was enthralled by OTR even in its state then. I remember going into buildings and talking to agents about how I could be involved. Unfortunately I was 18, in school and had no credit or savings. Buildings I toured in 07 that were on the market for $15,000 to $30,000 then, and the same shells fetch well into the quarter million dollar range now. It's sad because even now that I have credit and some savings, I'm completely priced out. This shouldn't be the case for a mixed income community, so in my opinion we've already gone a bit too far.

As a new person here, I am a little confused about what we mean when we say the West End.

 

For me, the West End was mostly eliminated by I75, Laurel Homes, City Center etc.

 

If we are talking about the area bounded by Liberty on the South and Central Parkway to the north, I get that. But, what is there? 200 housing units?

There are around 1,700 housing units between Liberty and Central Parkway. South of Liberty to where I-75 cuts east there are around 1,850 housing units, a portion of which (don't know that that is) are historic for a total of 3,550.

 

In comparison there are around 2,000 housing units north of Liberty in OTR and 2,300 south of Liberty in OTR for a total of 4,600.

 

Pendleton, for comparison, has about 650 housing units.

 

All of this is as of the 2010 census.

 

In 2010 there were a total of 12,784 people residing within occupied housing units at an average unit density of 2.32 people/unit. If we occupied all housing units that existed at the time of the 2010 census at around 2 people/unit average (since wealthy newcomers are less likely to have kids, be married, have extended family living with them, etc.) we'd have around 18,000 residents between OTR, Pendleton, and the West End.

 

Include a fully built out area (filling in all the gaps) and you could increase that by around 40% or so to 25,000 or so people between these three neighborhoods which would be a lot of people in a small area.

There are around 1,100 housing units between Liberty and Central Parkway.

 

----------------------

 

That's interesting. Where does that number come from?

 

 

 

I just edited it since I was only looking at occupied units only. I included other areas as well for comparison. It comes from the 2010 census data.

Yeah if you do google street view of the Old West end you can see streets that are incredibly intact. So much underutilized potential.

Besides the three most northern blocks which streets are intact? From what I see there is a lot of housing left but not a lot of continuity or density when compared to what was once there. Lot's of open lots /  parking lots / entire sides of streets completely bulldozed.

I just edited it since I was only looking at occupied units only. I included other areas as well for comparison. It comes from the 2010 census data.

 

I know its a bit tedious to bring a newcomer up to speed.  :-)

 

When you say "the 2010 Census" is there an interactive tool you are using to lasso the area that you have described? I'd like to become familiar with that tool. Your tutoring is appreciated.

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/census/2010/map.html

 

This is super useful for finding a lot of information very quickly. Enjoy wasting your afternoon with it haha.

http://www.nytimes.com/projects/census/2010/map.html

 

This is super useful for finding a lot of information very quickly. Enjoy wasting your afternoon with it haha.

 

Well, I am not seeing a smaller descriptive unit there than a "census tract." Am I missing something?

So in the top left corner there's a pull down menu that allows for you to see different map overlays. If you go to the vacant housing unit one and then hover over a census tract it'll tell you how many occupied units there are, unoccupied units, etc. and you can add together the census tracts you need to create the neighborhood you're looking at. Most of the time the census tracts follow the neighborhood boundaries in some manner or are only slightly off from our general definition but close enough for generality's sake.

The new Cincinnati Shakespeare Company theatre is coming along very quickly. It looks like they have most of the concrete poured for the theatre itself and they're constructing the rest of the building around it. I walked by about an hour ago and they are actively welding and moving building materials around with the crane. They must be obligated to meet a tough deadline if they're working this late into the evening.

The new Cincinnati Shakespeare Company theatre is coming along very quickly. It looks like they have most of the concrete poured for the theatre itself and they're constructing the rest of the building around it. I walked by about an hour ago and they are actively welding and moving building materials around with the crane. They must be obligated to meet a tough deadline if they're working this late into the evening.

 

Think it's possible to get a photo update of the Shakespeare theater, and the 15th and Race project (and other development projects around OTR that are currently occurring?). I'm not able to go down to OTR and much as I used to, and I really enjoy your photo updates!

 

Also, on a side note, I wonder when 15th and Vine will start. 3cdc usually has a tendency to not work on multiple projects simultaneously, so I'm guessing they are probably waiting to wrap up 15th and Race before beginning. 

I'm going to try to fly the drone this weekend so we'll see if I can get some updates...

^ Travis off topic, but just curious if you were flying at the Danger Wheels race this year and had a white phantom drone? I was there with the kids and my Great Dane and it was his first time seeing a drone. He lept at it like it was a mosquito and i was just curious if the drone camera caught it as it would be funny to see. I found this slo-mo of him on line at 1:19 trying to eat a scooter.

 

Was not me.

Source 3 is once again in the latest HCB (among other things)

 

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/buildings/historic-conservation/historic-conservation-board/september-26-2016-staff-report-and-attachments/

 

Slightly better rendering on pg 20. Again, I know I'm in the minority but the project looks pretty good to me. That density is also really sexy on that corner as well.

Best way to prove a project is crap? Show it from some ambiguous aerial angle nobody will ever see.

 

If there was one word I'd describe this building as it would be "disingenuous." I hate it.

 

I don't hate the fact the cool bank building at Madison and Woodburn is being fixed up though, but that's for another thread.

Kinda reminds me of this facade on the CityLink Center

 

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1191585,-84.5271332,3a,40.6y,344.01h,91.57t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sHhzerjKlrHDQjnRvE9xGMg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DHhzerjKlrHDQjnRvE9xGMg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D64.412659%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

Best way to prove a project is crap? Show it from some ambiguous aerial angle nobody will ever see.

 

If there was one word I'd describe this building as it would be "disingenuous." I hate it.

 

I don't hate the fact the cool bank building at Madison and Woodburn is being fixed up though, but that's for another thread.

 

I know you're not a fan of "faux" historic or "faux" granularity but they aren't going to redesign it how you would like and if they did a whole other group of people would have objections to it. I think it's fine and OTR needs the housing to satisfy demand.  A lot of the OTR foundation's objections (about height etc. coming from a different perspective than where you are I think) are getting into subjectivity at this point.

I like the fact that the art on the parking garage in the rendering is a replica of the mural that the Wades/Urban Sites demolished when they tore down the garage at Melindy and Clay.

 

I do NOT like the fact the OTRCC and Foundation keep carping on issues like it being to big and dense.

 

We need taller buildings and more density in our infill, not more 2 and 3 story townhomes.

^I agree. I think when this is all said and done, this will be an ok building. It will achieve the most important things like reactivating a dark, seemingly abandoned street and bring more residential into the neighborhood. It doesn't look great, but could be way worse, and this project hasn't actually violated a bunch of rules for historic preservation in OTR, so they need to just approve it. We need to add more details in the OTR Historic District Guidelines that will accommodate larger lot developments (especially at intersections) while encouraging smaller footprints in the middle of blocks.

People on this forum that are advocates for development and growth need to show up to OTRCC meetings. There is no dedicated constituency to argue in favor of projects like this so they get attacked from all sides. Keep in mind you have to be a dues paying member to vote on issues so you have to attend at least one meeting and sign up before you can vote on something (i.e. You can't vote on things the first meeting you attend.) so if you ever feel passionately about something and want to vote you need to have that taken care of.

The problem is that the OTRCC is so corrupt and mismanaged that it is impossible to get a fair say on anything.  There are individuals that constantly work to subvert the voices of members of the community who would like to see progress in the neighborhood.  I've long given up on the organization and have warned others of the sketchy behavior that has become commonplace at their meetings.

Kinda reminds me of this facade on the CityLink Center

 

Wait a minute here, that's a facade?!?!  :wink:

I like the fact that the art on the parking garage in the rendering is a replica of the mural that the Wades/Urban Sites demolished when they tore down the garage at Melindy and Clay.

 

I do NOT like the fact the OTRCC and Foundation keep carping on issues like it being to big and dense.

 

We need taller buildings and more density in our infill, not more 2 and 3 story townhomes.

 

I bet we could get Matt Moore to come back and put a new mural on this garage.

Fun story, I'm working on a project in Bushwick and they're hiring an artist to do a mural on the building. But before we knew who they were hiring I was giving direction to an intern on creating a schematic rendering. She calls me over to show me progress and she used that mural from that garage. I looked at it and was like, "wait.....this feels really familiar" and asked her where she got it and she showed me this random article about him and I said, "that used to be a few blocks from my place." Such a weird coincidence. He does great work, it's a shame that little mural is gone.

This is off topic, somewhat...But I wish I could understand architecture better. I sort of hate that my eyes don't have the same knowledge as some of you. I can appreciate it, but I can't really appreciate the minor things that most people don't notice like scale, dimensions, etc. Those meticulous things.

 

For instance, when I see the U square at Clifton, I can tell right away how ugly it is. But when I see this current Liberty and Elm project I don't see the issues with it. I see infill that still pays tribute to the surrounding environment (sans that ugly parking garage) and does a good/decent job of blending/shading in the missing spaces.

 

But when others see something that's atrocious, I feel like my eyes are broken and wish (to some extent) that I can see what some of you are able to.

It's not so simple as just understanding.  There's a big disconnect between what the layperson likes and appreciates and what architects like and appreciate.  Even within the profession there's a good amount of disagreement over what's a self-serving ego trip or kitschy copycatting. 

​Major OTR development along 'best site' on streetcar line gets approval

 

 

The Cincinnati Historic Conservation Board OK’d a major development along the Cincinnati Bell Connector streetcar line on Monday, clearing another hurdle for a mixed-use project at what one of the two developers involved has called “the best site in Over-the-Rhine.”

 

The panel asked for and received one change to the design of the project at Liberty and Elm streets – a change in color of the metal wall of a corner building from red to metallic gray. The developers, Source 3 and 224 West Liberty LLC, agreed to the change after the panel requested it at its Sept. 12 meeting. The Historic Conservation Board’s staff recommended approval of a certificate of appropriateness for the project.

 

More below:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2016/09/27/major-otr-development-along-best-site-on.html

I like that they kept the alley with a similar treatment as this one in the West End. https://www.google.com/maps/place/Cincinnati,+OH/@39.1166366,-84.5248916,3a,86.9y,83.6h,114.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIZlXV-spkgWCttFtj5t_NQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!4m5!3m4!1s0x884051b1de3821f9:0x69fb7e8be4c09317!8m2!3d39.1031182!4d-84.5120196

 

I have a gut feeling that we might be seeing some chains this go around occupying those retail spots. This is the largest development outside of 3cdc work, and I can't help but feel starbucks and panarea and chains of those nature are looking to occupy an OTR store front in the near future. I don't know source 3 ideology on chains compared to 3cdc though.