On an unrelated note, I have seen Chris Collinsworth in OTR at least 4 or 5 times this summer walking around and not even just on the main drags but off the beaten path and in random corners with not much pedestrian traffic. Does anyone know if he is involved in any investment going on in OTR? With his money and national tv presence it would be great to see him getting involved like Ndukwe or even like Lachey has.

He owns Pro Football Focus which is a football analytics website that is headquartered in OTR. 

^He owns Pro Football Focus which is a football analytics company which many NFL and College teams use, and they are headquartered in Over the Rhine.  That said, I don't know if he was scouting for investments or not, but obviously he has a great fondness for the neighborhood considering he could land anywhere else in the metro:

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/04/06/exclusive-cris-collinsworths-firm-outgrows-otr.html

 

3CDC picks office leasing team for 15th & Vine

 

 

Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. has selected a new office leasing team for its speculative office project in Over-the-Rhine.

 

The nonprofit community development group selected Travis Likes and Scott Yards in the Cincinnati office of CBRE to market the 42,500 square feet of office space in the under construction Fifteenth and Vine building at 1425-1437 Vine St. Colliers International had been marketing the space as a pre-leasing opportunity before 3CDC took the marketing in-house in January.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/08/17/exclusive-3cdc-picks-office-leasing-team-for-15th.html

I screenshot this from IG. What was this elm street infill project supposed to be again? I think it was mentioned before but it slipped my mind.

 

It's on the right side of elm. 1422 or 1423elm.  It's a double lot and ground has been broken on one of the lots.

 

On otr guide instagram you can see a picture of the ground breaking but I don't remember the nature of the project.

Last plans I saw were for a single family townhouse. I remember it looking pretty bland and faux-historic along the lines of the trash built two lots north of it.

The facade looks like a shipping container. This was allowed to be built, but the Steiner infill project was rejected? Makes no sense.

Historic may have been thrown off by the angled roofline. What is the top, bottom, middle? How to measure height in order to ensure +/- 1 story from adjacent? Etc.

1616 pleasant street infill proposed. 3 story, 2 family residential. More details in the latest hcb packet.

I'm glad 1616 is putting two units on that small parcel. Most developers/owners would take the easier approach of making it single family. But adding two units will help the vitality of the street/neighborhood.

 

The project needs several variances for setbacks... which just shows how out of date the zoning rules are (RM 1.2) for this neighborhood. Fortunately, the HCB staff recommends approving the variance requests for this project, but we shouldn't be making it so hard to infill with zero lot line, multi-family buildings. 

 

For 2-family buildings in RM 1.2, the requirements are 25 ft lot width, 20 ft front yard setback, 20 ft rear yard set back, side yard min./total 3/6 ft. That zoning makes no sense in OTR.

 

 

 

 

One thing to keep in mind is that all residential (and office limited) zones in the city require you to average the front setbacks of properties on either side, either 3 buildings or 300 feet, whichever is greater, to determine yours.  That's why the 20' front setback usually doesn't apply, but it still requires more work to figure out.

One thing to keep in mind is that all residential (and office limited) zones in the city require you to average the front setbacks of properties on either side, either 3 buildings or 300 feet, whichever is greater, to determine yours.  That's why the 20' front setback usually doesn't apply, but it still requires more work to figure out.

 

Did not know that. 

I didn't know that until fairly recently either, probably because most projects I've worked on were rear additions or accessory buildings.  It's not in an obvious place in the zoning code either.  In hillside districts you average all the setbacks, not just the front, and I've dealt with those situations more.

^will this 2-family have off-street parking? 

^will this 2-family have off-street parking?

Yeah. 2 spots on a pad/driveway accessed from Levi Alley.

I was in otr on Saturday for the taste of otr and couldn't help but noticed how touristy vine st felt. A lot of peddle wagons, as well as tour groups in the area, not to mention many people stopping me asking for directions to such and such restaurant.

 

No sure if this has anything to do with the 36 hour nyt article or not, but regardless I really liked the vibe.

I was in otr on Saturday for the taste of otr and couldn't help but noticed how touristy vine st felt. A lot of peddle wagons, as well as tour groups in the area, not to mention many people stopping me asking for directions to such and such restaurant.

 

No sure if this has anything to do with the 36 hour nyt article or not, but regardless I really liked the vibe.

 

lol everything you were describing led me to believe you were going to say how it's a shame how things have gotten. If pedal wagons and tour groups become a dominant feature somewhere, I'm out.

They may not be the most amazing things in the world, but tourism is one of the most effective ways to positively change a city's image. If Vine Street hosts a lot of outsiders which in turn changes the perception of Cincinnati/Ohio then I'm cool with it. Tourism is, after all, a huge part of why many cities made a comeback in this country.

Growth fueled by entertainment is temporary and undesirable. I'd much rather have the 150 new folks living in Pendleton than 4000 drunken visitors every weekend like Vine St. has. Pedal carts are ok I suppose, but if one finds themselves in a neighborhood with more bars and restaurants than dogs and cats kept as pets, life there will be for crap.

Maybe some people actually like to live and go out in a place where there are a lot of bars and restaurants?  Jesus some of you people are just miserable. 

Growth fueled by entertainment is temporary and undesirable. I'd much rather have the 150 new folks living in Pendleton than 4000 drunken visitors every weekend like Vine St. has. Pedal carts are ok I suppose, but if one finds themselves in a neighborhood with more bars and restaurants than dogs and cats kept as pets, life there will be for crap.

 

In what world can you only have one or the other? Explain it to me. I'll wait. Because last I checked OTR has both and is doing just fine.

 

My god these boards are getting old and grumpy these days. What happened to all the excitement and optimism?

"Growth fueled by entertainment is temporary and undesirable." I highly doubt this assessment is true. I would cite any city with a tourism industry as a counter to this argument.

Also the pedal cart is pretty much THE WORST part of those areas.

I was thinking about this today, and I mentioned before.  In my opinion, if Vine Street continues to grow I think it would be best if it is mostly office space on the street itself to support daytime activity and restaurants, and then the side streets turn more into the residential.  I think that is what 3CDC is looking at doing now.  A lot of times I have been down there during the day and it is extremely quiet, almost deserted.  It needs to find a balance.

 

I agree, the more people they get to visit, the better for the city.  People will see the activity at day if they can successfully add a bunch of businesses, then these business people will look to invest in the side streets.  Downtown also needs to add a ton of residential, which will help balance it out as a whole.  I see the tourism as a very good thing.  You want a thriving entertainment district, even if some people don't like it, I believe it best for the city now and moving forward. 

My wife and I live on 1500 block of Elm, and we enjoy the variety walking on 15th from Elm four blocks over to Main. Vine does feel "touristy" a lot of the time, but that's OK - its supposed to be the entertainment center of OTR. You can tell even now that, when Elm street is fully redeveloped, it will retain its residential feel. There just isn't enough storefront space to do anything else. In one sense its amazing that OTR has progressed to the point where such obvious differentiation is possible.

 

There are now pedal wagons on Elm, though, thanks to some of them taking the route all the way up to RhineGeist. It's hilarious to watch them when they pass the drug dealers at the Liberty and Elm streetcar stop, hootin' and hollerin' at each other.

That was one of my favorite aspects of OTR/Pendleton. I loved walking from Central Parkway all the way through to the east side of Pendleton. There was so much variety block to block. More than is seen in most neighborhoods. Each street has a distinct personality.

Growth fueled by entertainment is temporary and undesirable. I'd much rather have the 150 new folks living in Pendleton than 4000 drunken visitors every weekend like Vine St. has. Pedal carts are ok I suppose, but if one finds themselves in a neighborhood with more bars and restaurants than dogs and cats kept as pets, life there will be for crap.

 

Agree 100%. That's why I chose to live on Main instead of Vine.

 

The reason that the OTR renaissance of the 2000s didn't stick is because it was purely focused on entertainment (clubby bars) and nothing else. The current mix of condos, apartments, upscale restaurants and bars, clubby bars, pedal wagons, etc., is a much better mix. It is more sustainable and less likely to suddenly fade away.

Growth fueled by entertainment is temporary and undesirable. I'd much rather have the 150 new folks living in Pendleton than 4000 drunken visitors every weekend like Vine St. has. Pedal carts are ok I suppose, but if one finds themselves in a neighborhood with more bars and restaurants than dogs and cats kept as pets, life there will be for crap.

 

Agree 100%. That's why I chose to live on Main instead of Vine.

 

The reason that the OTR renaissance of the 2000s didn't stick is because it was purely focused on entertainment (clubby bars) and nothing else. The current mix of condos, apartments, upscale restaurants and bars, clubby bars, pedal wagons, etc., is a much better mix. It is more sustainable and less likely to suddenly fade away.

 

Stable residential expansion anchors the neighborhood. Trendy bars and restaurants are just that - trendy. When the trend shifts, which it always does, the loss of these bars and restaurants causes a loss of confidence in the neighborhood. I think that false start happened on Main St. as you say around 2000s. And, it was part of the reason the PNC fought the "boutique hotel" concept at 1310 Sycamore. If that had been allowed, there would be a hotel there and a 2 acre surface parking lot instead of 142 apartments. There was much excitement and push from the City and the business community for all of those jobs and tax and fee revenue. Don't let anyone make a mistake. It came pretty close. Now Pendleton is poised to be the jewel of all of urban Cincinnati. Some bars and restaurants, Pendleton arts center, apartments and condos galore, Ziegler. And, almost none of the problems of the Vine and Race  areas.

 

Vine may be packed during dinner time but it's a ghost town past midnight.  There's really only one bar on the street, the rest are a bunch of restaurants and shops.  Main St meanwhile is an absolute shit show on Friday and Saturday night.  Sidewalks are just packed with drunk people and homeless panhandling.  I don't mind it at all, I actually like it as it reminds me of some parts of New York.  But anyone who tries to act like Main is above or better then the "touristy" crowds on Vine is just wrong. 

1400 Sycamore[/member] I don't doubt what you say in that Pendleton can be and possibly will be and is poised to be the crown jewel of urban Cincinnati.  That said, it will still benefit from the added commercial / restaurant / bar scene to the west on Main and Vine and everything in between.  It all works together.  That all said, you are right, Pendleton is a gem, and the added apartments on the SPCA grounds, and all the work Model and I'm sure smaller developers are doing will all be a fabulous addition to the neighborhood now and moving forward.

... And, almost none of the problems of the Vine and Race areas.

Cincinnati/OTR has officially entered the 'bitching' phase of redevelopment. Progress!

I lived on the 1400 block of Race Street for 2 years. What problems specifically are you talking about? Because I sure as hell didn't see any. I saw people enjoying themselves and the company of friends/family on weekends, taking tours when the weather was nice, walking their dogs, going to the park, etc. but not problems.

Maybe some people actually like to live and go out in a place where there are a lot of bars and restaurants?  Jesus some of you people are just miserable.

 

it is the same 3 or 4 people on this forum that never say anything positive. it's also negative regardless of topic...

"Pendleton" is not its own neighborhood or really distinct from the rest of Over-the-Rhine in any measurable way.  Same kinds of buildings, same bad 20th century history, same sort of people doing renovations and moving in.  What could possibly make it better than Over-the-Rhine proper?  It doesn't have views or any sort of distinct identity.  No long-running neighborhood business. 

 

North Avondale is actually quite different from Avondale.  East Walnut Hills is quite different than Walnut Hills.  North College Hill is quite different than College Hill.  All of those are much more different from their namesake than is "Pendleton" from Over-the-Rhine. 

"Pendleton" is not its own neighborhood or really distinct from the rest of Over-the-Rhine in any measurable way.  Same kinds of buildings, same bad 20th century history, same sort of people doing renovations and moving in.  What could possibly make it better than Over-the-Rhine proper?  It doesn't have views or any sort of distinct identity.  No long-running neighborhood business. 

 

North Avondale is actually quite different from Avondale.  East Walnut Hills is quite different than Walnut Hills.  North College Hill is quite different than College Hill.  All of those are much more different from their namesake than is "Pendleton" from Over-the-Rhine.

 

Are you kidding? The narrow streets alone are to die for. So European like.

 

Plus most of the buildings are domainted by non colored brick row houses, very similar to bostons north end in some respects.

 

Also St. Paul's church and its small church plaza also just gives me beautiful European vibes.

 

Again to say pendelton looks anything like the rest of otr is insane. It definitely has its own unique flavor and atmosphere that sets it apart from the rest of otr.

 

 

I'd say the reality is somewhere in between. 

The main thing about Pendleton is that it is bordered on all sides. Like an island. And, there is very little demo and infill unlike most of the areas of OTR south of Liberty and West of Sycamore.

 

there are several very interesting buildings, 1310 Sycamore aka Alumni Lofts, Pendleton Art Center, St. Paul's. Several incredible 1800's mansion renovations. It is small, but is that the test?

 

As long as Model doesn't mess things up too much with their antics and the do-gooders that run those slums on 12th St. leave quietly some day, there will be nothing like it. Of course, I am somewhat biased.

If we're counting pendelton as otr though than prospect hill is by far the most gorgeous neighborhood that surrounds otr. The views and those narrow streets!

If we're counting pendelton as otr though than prospect hill is by far the most gorgeous neighborhood that surrounds otr. The views and those narrow streets!

 

No, actually it is not. It has the best views, no one can disagree.

 

But the buildings are a complete mess. Mostly modern renovations, demo all over the place, 50's and 60's business buildings, etc. Most everything there has been molested and not very gently.

 

You might want to revisit Prosepct Hill in person.

Can't really think of too many 50's and 60's business building.

Eh are we talking about the same area? Yes there is some modern homes but the infill is no worse than otr. Still a lot of beautiful old row homes on those streets.

 

And no 50 business buildings so I do t know what you are referring to...

If I have time, I'll run a video up and down Boal and Ringgold for you. But, Boal is half vacant lots and half bad 2000 era houses that look like they belong  in Montgomery. My friends built them back in the day. Everything up there has a monster add-on garages and bigassed picture windows. Ringgold is devoted to the TV station. Its hard to find enough adjacent houses up there to call them row houses since there is so much demo and in fill.

 

Really, IMO its a mess up there as far as charming 1800's unmolested structures are concerned. But, if its your cup of tea, so be it.

Ringgold is not part of Prospect Hill and the north side of Boal is for whatever reason not in the historic district.

Ringgold is not part of Prospect Hill and the north side of Boal is for whatever reason not in the historic district.

 

I see Channing as the northern border which would include Ringgold and the north side of Boal. What are you looking at?

If I have time, I'll run a video up and down Boal and Ringgold for you. But, Boal is half vacant lots and half bad 2000 era houses that look like they belong  in Montgomery. My friends built them back in the day. Everything up there has a monster add-on garages and bigassed picture windows. Ringgold is devoted to the TV station. Its hard to find enough adjacent houses up there to call them row houses since there is so much demo and in fill.

 

Really, IMO its a mess up there as far as charming 1800's unmolested structures are concerned. But, if its your cup of tea, so be it.

 

I wasn't really referring to Boal or Ringold st. I was more referring to the beauty in the streets of Liberty Hill, Corporation Alley, and Milton Street. There are some beautiful row houses there as well as narrow streets that I love.

 

Here's an example pic:

 

 

 

On the National Register of Historic Places the northern boundary is Channng.

 

I think Milton is pretty nice. My old chum Julie Gerdsen started that in around 1980. She was a pioneer and did a good job.

 

For a photo slide show of the best of Prospect Hill, look here:

 

http://cincinnatirefined.com/travel/photos-the-homes-of-historic-prospect-hill#/

I've been hearing good things about [part of] Price Hill these days like it's a new frontier, or alternative, since OTR rents and prices can be sky-high anymore (and some of the product offered in exchange is definitely underwhelming, sorry to say).  And while close-in places like Camp Washington, Brighton and parts of the West End can offer architecturally-interesting housing stock at more realistic prices, IMO there's something about their proximity to I-75 that's akin to a disfiguring scar on those areas.  Maybe I'm over-reacting.  Parts of Price Hill offer nice views too.  Having said this, I've been hearing similar things for a long time -- it's been called the "Poor Man's Mt. Adams" in the past, and nothing's happening there at the astounding pace of progress like in OTR.  But OTR prices are undoubtedly forcing people to consider alternatives.

 

Still, the sky-high values are making it less risky for people to invest big bucks in single family residences -- for example the Jose Garcia-designed house on Elm Street looks stunning, and hopefully there will be much more of that type of development.  My husband and I have taken several folks on their maiden streetcar rides and they're truly in awe of what's happening.

I've been hearing good things about [part of] Price Hill these days like it's a new frontier, or alternative, since OTR rents and prices can be sky-high anymore (and some of the product offered in exchange is definitely underwhelming, sorry to say).  And while close-in places like Camp Washington, Brighton and parts of the West End can offer architecturally-interesting housing stock at more realistic prices, IMO there's something about their proximity to I-75 that's akin to a disfiguring scar on those areas.  Maybe I'm over-reacting.  Parts of Price Hill offer nice views too.  Having said this, I've been hearing similar things for a long time -- it's been called the "Poor Man's Mt. Adams" in the past, and nothing's happening there at the astounding pace of progress like in OTR.  But OTR prices are undoubtedly forcing people to consider alternatives.

 

Still, the sky-high values are making it less risky for people to invest big bucks in single family residences -- for example the Jose Garcia-designed house on Elm Street looks stunning, and hopefully there will be much more of that type of development.  My husband and I have taken several folks on their maiden streetcar rides and they're truly in awe of what's happening.

 

Price Hill just needs someone with money to jumpstart investment.  They're lacking something like 3CDC.  Sure, there is Price Hill Will, but they don't have near the reach of 3CDC.  Nearly everything that has been put in has been a major success though.  On a Friday or Saturday evening, you'll be lucky to find a parking spot because of the Incline Theatre and Incline Public House.  Veracruz Mexican Grill has been a hit as well.  The wine bar and coffee shop both seem to do a good business.  The ingredients are there, but nearly all of the activity is coming from people who do not live in Price Hill.  There are a lot of empty lots east of Hawthorne Ave just begging to be redeveloped. 

If I have time, I'll run a video up and down Boal and Ringgold for you. But, Boal is half vacant lots and half bad 2000 era houses that look like they belong  in Montgomery. My friends built them back in the day. Everything up there has a monster add-on garages and bigassed picture windows. Ringgold is devoted to the TV station. Its hard to find enough adjacent houses up there to call them row houses since there is so much demo and in fill.

 

Really, IMO its a mess up there as far as charming 1800's unmolested structures are concerned. But, if its your cup of tea, so be it.

 

I wasn't really referring to Boal or Ringold st. I was more referring to the beauty in the streets of Liberty Hill, Corporation Alley, and Milton Street. There are some beautiful row houses there as well as narrow streets that I love.

 

Here's an example pic:

 

 

 

Well, I did go up and make a video of Prospect Hill yesterday. From Channing to Liberty and Sycamore to Highland. Its not very good so I think I won't post it or take the time to edit out my poor camera handling. You will be grateful not to have to seen it.

 

But, your post above is quite correct. Liberty Hill and Milton are lovely, what is left of them. There might be 40 attractive houses left from the historic build between 1865 and 1890.

 

But, the rest of Prospect hill is a dogs's breakfast. Boal was more than 50% demolished and new houses infilled that are utterly tasteless. Garage in front, Montgomery style townhouses.  As I posted above, the parts of Ringgold not devoted to WKRC has every manner of garages and infill crapola. And, if one ventures up to Channing which I do not recommend, the parts that are not devoted to the sprawling campus of God's Bible School look like most of the bad parts of northside with a mix of everything.

 

In summary, all of the loveliness in Prospect Hill is found in this slideshow. There could be a lot of new construction done, but I'd not describe it as a neighborhood with much charm potential when compared to Pendleton.

 

http://cincinnatirefined.com/travel/photos-the-homes-of-historic-prospect-hill#/

It's very interesting what you've brought up about the borders.  The neighborhood organization requires voting members to live between boal and liberty hill so I have no idea what the original basis for that is.

I used to own this "Montgomery style townhouse" on Boal, as 1400 Sycamore[/member] puts it. In the realm of infill housing, I'd put this squarely in the middle. Far from terrible, and far from what I love. One nice thing about these homes that's hidden - they're built on a structural reinforced concrete foundation supported by 15 drilled piers. Being on a Cincinnati hillside (yes, with fabulous views), its nice not to have to worry about sliding downhill, masonry cracking, etc.