Cool! I really like those.

 

 

The latest hcb packet was released.

 

Items of note:

 

1. The race st infill project was approved after some minor adjustments. The 2 non contributing buildings will be demolished.

 

2. 1626-1628 pleasant st was not approved due to its large garage and other inappropriate features. The hcb notes that the large garage was inappropriate for otr, especially since it faced the street.

 

3. The 3 family until elm st infill project was approved by the hcb.

 

4. A mixed use residential and airbnb hotel was also approved for a historic building adjacent to rheingeist.

The latest hcb packet was released.

 

Items of note:

 

1. The race st infill project was approved after some minor adjustments. The 2 non contributing buildings will be demolished.

 

 

It was not approved, it is going back 9/25/17 for consideration

^I was a bit confused on that but, I think it was approved as Troy mentioned, these are the notes they go over on 9/25, they work ahead a bit I believe.  There were some parts on it they didn't approve which confused me but once they got some of the "main details" at the end of their notes it showed approved.

It was recommended for approval at the meeting on the 25th, but it has not yet been officially approved.

Huh? Doesn't it say approved based on such and such finding at the end? I'm confused...

Huh? Doesn't it say approved based on such and such finding at the end? I'm confused...

 

I think you're confused about "staff recommendations" versus the actual board vote. These packets are prepared by the staff and include their recommendations, which the 7-member board will review and use as their basis for voting. But the Board is not bound to accept the staff recommendations. On Sept 25, the board meets and will vote on these issues.

 

 

Doesn't the board normally pass staff recommendations. Just really want this project to get off the ground. It's probably the best looking infill to date in otr and adds density and retail. What's better than that.

Doesn't the board normally pass staff recommendations. Just really want this project to get off the ground. It's probably the best looking infill to date in otr and adds density and retail. What's better than that.

 

Usually but not always. The staff recommended denying permits to demolish the Dennison, but the board voted anyway to allow the demolition. 

Doesn't the board normally pass staff recommendations. Just really want this project to get off the ground. It's probably the best looking infill to date in otr and adds density and retail. What's better than that.

 

Usually but not always. The staff recommended denying permits to demolish the Dennison, but the board voted anyway to allow the demolition.

 

That's not quite how it went- HCB denied demo, ZBA overruled them, decision was held up by magistrate.

Doesn't the board normally pass staff recommendations. Just really want this project to get off the ground. It's probably the best looking infill to date in otr and adds density and retail. What's better than that.

 

Usually but not always. The staff recommended denying permits to demolish the Dennison, but the board voted anyway to allow the demolition.

 

That's not quite how it went- HCB denied demo, ZBA overruled them, decision was held up by magistrate.

 

Ahh... my bad. I remembered that it bounced around. I think I tried to block out the details since it was so painful. I still feel physically upset to my stomach when I pass by the Dennison on Main St.

 

 

Lebanese restaurant coming to Over-the-Rhine

 

Aladdin's Eatery is coming to 1203 Main St. in the space formerly occupied by Mixx Ultra Lounge. It is expected to open in early spring 2018, and marks the third Aladdin's location in the region, behind the original in West Chester and one in Hyde Park. [...]

 

Chalkly said Aladdin's initially approached the Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. (3CDC) about locating in Over-the-Rhine, but couldn't find space with them, since Aladdin's is a chain. She said Urban Sites, who Aladdin's ended up partnering with, was eager to get them into a space.

It's more upsetting when it's a parking lot. If Amazon built a 50 story modern glass tower for there hq2 I would be fine with the demolition. 

 

Before the Dennison was built there was a building that was there, and so on so forth. It's progress. We just have lost so much touch with how we build our buildings nowadays which is why we are so senteminal.

 

But progress should always occur especially in the cbd. Leave otr as our city museum imo.

Great addition to Main St and OTR. We need more restaurant options especially for Main St, and we need more diverse option in terms of dining options.

 

Also, any word on the status of 16 bit latest project on main. The duck pin bowling project with the rooftop bar? Is that space being worked on at all?

Does anyone have any info on what is going on with Freeport row? The elm st project that went through that whole city council mess.

 

I know they eliminated the parking garage because of financing issues. Now I'm wondering if source 3 has run into more walls financially?

 

A part of me is wondering if this project will ever even happen now...

Does anyone have any info on what is going on with Freeport row? The elm st project that went through that whole city council mess.

 

I know they eliminated the parking garage because of financing issues. Now I'm wondering if source 3 has run into more walls financially?

 

A part of me is wondering if this project will ever even happen now...

 

 

I have heard from two folks now that the financing has fallen through, unless they can find another partner or investor Freeport Row is dead. Shame but I guess NIMBY got there wish ultimately.

It makes me very upset to hear this

Same, the reasoning against was asinine.

Maybe a blessing in disguise.

 

This project added density for sure, but maybe now we can have a project that fits the otr fabric better. It did look as if it was better of at uc or the banks in the long run.

But wait if the project is indeed dead than how does the sale of the elm Lot work? Did source 3 purchase the land and the city will refund them if nothing is built? How does that work?

I assume they just had an option on the land, contingent on financing.  It is a common thing that eliminates the risk for a developer.

 

If they couldn't get financing for their project, why would you think a bank would finance a less dense, higher quality development?  Common sense and NIMBYs don't go well together. 

Yesterday, some painters were on 14th Street painting over the graffiti these buildings which I think are still owned by the Wades. I don't know if they still plan on redeveloping them any time soon, but at least they are being diligent about painting over graffiti that pops up.

I assume they just had an option on the land, contingent on financing.  It is a common thing that eliminates the risk for a developer.

 

If they couldn't get financing for their project, why would you think a bank would finance a less dense, higher quality development?  Common sense and NIMBYs don't go well together.

 

I was more referring to later. With the eventual street diet, whenever that occurs and more investment in otr, the infill will become better over time. That lot is such prime real estate that there is no need to rush these things, and that maybe we will get a better product later in the future. Whether it be 5 or 10 years from now. My point is that there is no rush needed.

 

 

 

The only rush is that there is high demand to live in OTR, and every year that goes by where OTR does not build enough new housing to meet that demand, people choose other neighborhoods instead. We also need more residents in OTR if we want to support more resident-oriented businesses in OTR, instead of just high end bars and restaurants. And finally, as wealthier people move into OTR, the NIMBY element is going to grow stronger...people in million-dollar single-family townhomes are probably not going to want a 200 unit apartment building built next door. So there is a bit of a race against the clock to add density to the neighborhood while we still can.

The only rush is that there is high demand to live in OTR, and every year that goes by where OTR does not build enough new housing to meet that demand, people choose other neighborhoods instead. We also need more residents in OTR if we want to support more resident-oriented businesses in OTR, instead of just high end bars and restaurants. And finally, as wealthier people move into OTR, the NIMBY element is going to grow stronger...people in million-dollar single-family townhomes are probably not going to want a 200 unit apartment building built next door. So there is a bit of a race against the clock to add density to the neighborhood while we still can.

 

Nailed it!  It is this EXACT dynamic that made OTR what it was originally.  As soon as it slows, you end up with Mt Adams.

 

 

Nah otr will be fine. There will always be younger kids finishing highschool and discovering otr for the first time wanting to be a part of the neighborhood. It's a cycle no? Kids go to college, graduate find a wife have kids. Those kids grow up, and will go through the same cycle of moving into college and discovering otr.

 

Also attracting foreigners and out of Towners from neighboring states should be on our radar as well. I don't feel like that otr should be on a time window. Otr will always be a powerful attracting neighborhood that people will want to live at.

I'm not sure I know too many high school or even recent college grads that could afford to purchase a million dollar town home. I think the point being made is that this interest is already there, just that the amount and price of the housing is currently higher than most people are willing to spend when they can live adjacent or at least close and then just come visit. Trust me, I caught the bug and I would love to live in OTR, but frankly it's a bit out of my league at this point. When I first moved here I wanted to buy a building, I remember one selling for about 15k on 14th I believe and it was bought and came back on the market 4 years later with almost nothing done to it, but for about 265k.

^I get why we need and should add density in OTR, especially to liven it up.

 

I think adding lots of residential density in spots in downtown, then keeping the character as much as possible in OTR (density where we can with a mix of uses for residential), will keep OTR alive and popping.  It will be an entertainment area, shopping, dining, with exclusive and expensive condos and homes, with downtown holding a lot more population. 

 

I think what OTR needs now at least along Vine Street Corridor in the upper levels is office users, so it isn't as dead outside of lunch during the business day.  Then, have the residential on the side streets with of course retail on ground floors at least in the corners.

 

I think Main seems like it is adding more office right now, correct?

The only office space on Main (that I'm aware of) is the upper floors of the buildings where The Drinkery and Japp's are located. Other office space includes the Empower MediaMarketing building on 14th, and the new project at 15th & Vine.

As well as the large Streitman (sp?) Biscuit warehouse on 12th/Central south of Queen City Radio. If i recall, that has space for up to 400 office workers and ground-floor retail.

 

Obviously the challenge is finding tenants, and ideally not ones just shifting from the CBD to OTR...but from outside the basin, and ideally outside the region. 

I'm not sure I know too many high school or even recent college grads that could afford to purchase a million dollar town home. I think the point being made is that this interest is already there, just that the amount and price of the housing is currently higher than most people are willing to spend when they can live adjacent or at least close and then just come visit. Trust me, I caught the bug and I would love to live in OTR, but frankly it's a bit out of my league at this point. When I first moved here I wanted to buy a building, I remember one selling for about 15k on 14th I believe and it was bought and came back on the market 4 years later with almost nothing done to it, but for about 265k.

 

Yeah, you are exactly right. If the middle class decides that living in OTR isn't worth the cost, and they can just live in Northside or Walnut Hills and drive to OTR on the weekends, then OTR will never get the density of middle class residents to support moderately priced businesses.

 

OTR is at risk of becoming the "urban Indian Hill" where all of the vacant lots are filled with million dollar townhomes for the next generation of wealthy people, because the NIMBYs are opposed to 4 or 5 story apartment buildings. Storefronts will get filled with stuffy restaurants that cater to those residents and people that come down for Music Hall events. Wealthy people don't want bodegas, rock music venues, and stuff like that in their neighborhood. If Main Street gets filled with people making high six figure salaries, you can bet that MOTR Pub and The Drinkery are not long for this world.

 

As much as people focus on low income residents ... it is equally important, if not more so, that we focus on housing options for the middle class in OTR. Without a strong middle class, OTR will not have the types of affordable businesses that are enjoyed by people of all incomes.

 

Nah otr will be fine. There will always be younger kids finishing highschool and discovering otr for the first time wanting to be a part of the neighborhood. It's a cycle no? Kids go to college, graduate find a wife have kids. Those kids grow up, and will go through the same cycle of moving into college and discovering otr.

 

Also attracting foreigners and out of Towners from neighboring states should be on our radar as well. I don't feel like that otr should be on a time window. Otr will always be a powerful attracting neighborhood that people will want to live at.

 

You are probably right but I wouldn't count on it. It's impossible for us to accurately predict that social and technological changes will happen in the future and totally change the game. For Baby Boomers, highways and suburbs were the hot new thing and they were willing to abandon Cincinnati's urban neighborhood with all of their history and interesting architecture to move to boring but "modern, safe, and clean" subdivisions. What if the suburbs get really good at building little walkable pockets, like what Blue Ash is doing with Summit Park and all of the new office space and housing that will surround it; and then the federal government decides to subsidize self-driving cars the same way they subsidized highways and suburban growth? Would high schoolers and college students think Summit Park is "cool" enough and decide to live there instead of actual historic urban neighborhoods?

 

As for attracting foreigners and out-of-towners ... I completely agree. The best thing that could happen to our region is massive growth that would make it economically viable for developers to buy and restore historic buildings, build high quality infill, etc. However our current city, state, and federal leadership is opposed to this type of growth. And when the idea of Amazon coming to Cincinnati was floated, many life-long Cincinnatians said "that's a terrible idea, we can't possibly support that many more residents!"

 

So my thinking is ... we need to strike while the iron is hot. I'm not saying that we should rush and build crappy looking infill projects. But we need to speed up the pace. The demand is there now, and we need to meet that demand.

As well as the large Streitman (sp?) Biscuit warehouse on 12th/Central south of Queen City Radio. If i recall, that has space for up to 400 office workers and ground-floor retail.

 

Obviously the challenge is finding tenants, and ideally not ones just shifting from the CBD to OTR...but from outside the basin, and ideally outside the region. 

 

Yep, I forgot about that one. It's really nice how all of these new office buildings are spread out across the neighborhood. So it's not like we have a cluster of residential and a cluster of office space. They are actually somewhat evenly distributed.

Agreed. And losing/delaying projects like Liberty/Elm and 4/Race is frustrating. The window to land funding is drying up as banks are pulling back...and even when these projects (like Central/Walnut) move forward they are ~150 units and years away from anyone actually living there.

Agreed. And losing/delaying projects like Liberty/Elm and 4/Race is frustrating. The window to land funding is drying up as banks are pulling back...and even when these projects (like Central/Walnut) move forward they are ~150 units and years away from anyone actually living there.

 

And just as a thought exercise, what happens if P&G or Macy's announces that they're moving their corporate headquarters to New York? Or Kroger announces they've gotten a great tax deal from the state of Texas and are moving their headquarters to Plano? Or Fifth Third is merging with Wells Fargo so all of those corporate jobs are leaving Cincinnati? All of these projects like Fourth & Race and Fifth & Main that are currently "in limbo" are totally dead. It'll be like we had this period of time from 2005 to 2017 when urban living was cool and the demand existed to build massive new buildings downtown ... but we didn't. We just sat on our thumbs and did nothing. And then the opportunity passed us by.

 

Now, I'm not suggesting that any of these corporations are about to leave, but when you are thinking about the long term, you need to have all scenarios in mind -- pessimistic, realistic, and optimistic.

Is it possible that source 3 as a developer is just really struggling? I mean look at there Clifton development. The ground floor retail has been vacant for almost a year now.

 

I just get the feeling that this is more isolated with source 3.

Agreed. And losing/delaying projects like Liberty/Elm and 4/Race is frustrating. The window to land funding is drying up as banks are pulling back...and even when these projects (like Central/Walnut) move forward they are ~150 units and years away from anyone actually living there.

 

And just as a thought exercise, what happens if P&G or Macy's announces that they're moving their corporate headquarters to New York? Or Kroger announces they've gotten a great tax deal from the state of Texas and are moving their headquarters to Plano? Or Fifth Third is merging with Wells Fargo so all of those corporate jobs are leaving Cincinnati? All of these projects like Fourth & Race and Fifth & Main that are currently "in limbo" are totally dead. It'll be like we had this period of time from 2005 to 2017 when urban living was cool and the demand existed to build massive new buildings downtown ... but we didn't. We just sat on our thumbs and did nothing. And then the opportunity passed us by.

 

Now, I'm not suggesting that any of these corporations are about to leave, but when you are thinking about the long term, you need to have all scenarios in mind -- pessimistic, realistic, and optimistic.

Agreed, btw it is very possible these situations could happen. There have been articles in the biz courier for the last few weeks about something to do with some guy possibly influencing the board at p&g and moving alot of jobs out of the city or something. Don't really understand all of it sorry.

^Yeah, an activist investor attempting to break up P&G.  Doing the sort of crap that made Mitt Romney rich. 

Agreed. And losing/delaying projects like Liberty/Elm and 4/Race is frustrating. The window to land funding is drying up as banks are pulling back...and even when these projects (like Central/Walnut) move forward they are ~150 units and years away from anyone actually living there.

 

And just as a thought exercise, what happens if P&G or Macy's announces that they're moving their corporate headquarters to New York? Or Kroger announces they've gotten a great tax deal from the state of Texas and are moving their headquarters to Plano? Or Fifth Third is merging with Wells Fargo so all of those corporate jobs are leaving Cincinnati? All of these projects like Fourth & Race and Fifth & Main that are currently "in limbo" are totally dead. It'll be like we had this period of time from 2005 to 2017 when urban living was cool and the demand existed to build massive new buildings downtown ... but we didn't. We just sat on our thumbs and did nothing. And then the opportunity passed us by.

 

Now, I'm not suggesting that any of these corporations are about to leave, but when you are thinking about the long term, you need to have all scenarios in mind -- pessimistic, realistic, and optimistic.

 

ugh, scary thought. basically thats whats happened in cleveland. dayton and akron have other major examples. the book 'glass houses' about anchor hocking and lancaster is a great small town example. certainly there are lessons to learn from those losses. so the city of cinci government and the state just tries to do the best it can to not let it happen down there.

OTR theater among national contestants for millions in preservation funding

 

An Over-the-Rhine landmark is one of 25 projects across the nation competing for $2 million in preservation funding.

 

The Woodward Theater on Main Street could receive funding to restore its iconic marquee if it receives the most votes in the Partners in Preservation Vote Your Main Street contest.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/09/25/otr-theater-among-national-contestants-for.html

HCB yesterday:

1216-18 Race demo of historical, but non-contributing buildings and new 5 story building by Steiner Assoc approved

1626-28 Pleasant with the 2-car garage door was denied

1437 Elm, the funky looking infill with the address in the cornice was approved on a split vote by the board

 

 

 

1437 Elm, the funky looking infill with the address in the cornice was approved on a split vote by the board

 

 

^Ew. Score a win for faux historicism and bad proportions

Really glad the Steiner project got approved, I think that will be great hopefully with its future success it will help get more out of town developers into OTR.

 

Also happy to see the pleasant street garage was denied. Any future hope of Pleasant being a woonerf or car-free will be made much harder if direct garage accesses like this are allowed.

Curious as to why that specific Lot was chosen. There are still some empty lots, especially by the corner of race and republic, and by the golden mural. Also, strangely enough there is some buildings that still need to be rehabbed, even with the proximity to music hall and all the entertainment options are still in need of rehab which is a bit strange as to why they are not developed yet...

Not everything that's vacant is for sale and not every developer has the resources or experience to rehab historic buildings.

 

I have no problem with demolition and new construction when it upgrades the street wall like this will. Sure, I love filling in the gap teeth, but there's also benefit of new construction meeting the scale of its neighbors helping achieve a similar effect.

 

The corner by the golden muse mural isn't available and likely won't be for awhile. As much as I hate that it's there, it's likely going to stick around for a bit.

Exactly, we see surface lots as "vacant" but those property owners are usually happy to sit on those lots for a long long time paying almost no property tax and making cash hand over fist. On the other hand, a t-shirt screen printing company that owns a building in a hot neighborhood can sell their building to Steiner and move to a cheaper neighborhood and keep making t-shirts as usual with a bunch of extra money in their hands.

​Steiner’s Washington Park project finally gets go-ahead

By Chris Wetterich  –  Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

Developer Steiner + Associates relented to concerns from Cincinnati’s Historic Conservation Board and removed a planned setback on the first-floor restaurant space of its proposed mixed-use project near Washington Park.

 

As a result, on Monday, the panel unanimously approved zoning variances needed for Steiner to go forward with the project at 1216-1218 Race St.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2017/09/27/steiner-s-washington-park-project-finally-gets-go.html

So the biggest change is that instead of a setback on the ground floor, it'll have a garage door that can roll up to open the dining area to the outdoors.

 

The other change is that they'll use actual brick on the back instead of "concrete masonry units" (cinder block?). While that's a good thing, I don't know what viewpoints will actually be affected. That block is very dense with a lot of 4-5 story buildings, it didn't seem like the cinder blocks would actually be visible unless you were walking down Baldwin Alley behind the building.

 

Yeah, you are exactly right. If the middle class decides that living in OTR isn't worth the cost, and they can just live in Northside or Walnut Hills and drive to OTR on the weekends, then OTR will never get the density of middle class residents to support moderately priced businesses.

 

 

Is this scenario really a bad thing? Obviously we want OTR to be densely populated and filled with a variety of commercial uses, but if it trends continue, the neighborhood will become out of reach for some middle class residents. If these people who want to live in the core but cannot afford to instead land in Walnut Hills, Price Hill, Northside, etc. then you get more of a widespread renaissance across the city.  Isn't that kind of a secondary goal of 3CDC's work in OTR? Make downtown/OTR as desirable as possible, turning the area into an asset that people would want to live near. It's kind of like the Hyde Park/Oakley effect. People getting priced out of Hyde Park has helped to turn Oakley into a hot neighborhood, so now we have two cool, urbanish neighborhoods instead of just one.

 

I still think this discussion is very premature, though. OTR still has a long way to go, especially north of Liberty, before we can start saying that the neighborhood is an urban Indian Hill (lol). Even if every portion of OTR and Pendleton become super gentrified, there is still the West End, Brighton, Lower Price Hill...lots of basin neighborhoods that are in rough shape. There will be room for the middle class in the basin area of Cincinnati for quite some time, I think.

 

Yeah, you are exactly right. If the middle class decides that living in OTR isn't worth the cost, and they can just live in Northside or Walnut Hills and drive to OTR on the weekends, then OTR will never get the density of middle class residents to support moderately priced businesses.

 

 

Is this scenario really a bad thing? Obviously we want OTR to be densely populated and filled with a variety of commercial uses, but if it trends continue, the neighborhood will become out of reach for some middle class residents. If these people who want to live in the core but cannot afford to instead land in Walnut Hills, Price Hill, Northside, etc. then you get more of a widespread renaissance across the city.  Isn't that kind of a secondary goal of 3CDC's work in OTR? Make downtown/OTR as desirable as possible, turning the area into an asset that people would want to live near. It's kind of like the Hyde Park/Oakley effect. People getting priced out of Hyde Park has helped to turn Oakley into a hot neighborhood, so now we have two cool, urbanish neighborhoods instead of just one.

 

I still think this discussion is very premature, though. OTR still has a long way to go, especially north of Liberty, before we can start saying that the neighborhood is an urban Indian Hill (lol). Even if every portion of OTR and Pendleton become super gentrified, there is still the West End, Brighton, Lower Price Hill...lots of basin neighborhoods that are in rough shape. There will be room for the middle class in the basin area of Cincinnati for quite some time, I think.

 

In general, I agree with the last part of your statement. OTR is a pretty big neighborhood so it should be able to accommodate all income levels. However; the biggest challenge is the availability of move-in ready housing. Most of Northern Liberties has been bought by shell LLC's of 3CDC and Model. Mohawk and the northern parts of McMicken are mostly run down. Same with most of Brighton in West End. These are places where the sweat equity makes the value still but it is very little (or really nothing at all) that is affordable to middle-income earners that is move-in ready.

I guess the danger is that if neighborhoods get priced too high before they achieve the critical mass of density to support true walkability and transit use, then any renaissance could become self-extinguishing because of traffic and parking problems.  Just look at all the NIMBYism that's already prevalent in Hyde Park and Oakley in no small part because of traffic and parking concerns.  That will also hurt the streetcar, as well as bike lanes, improved bus transit, light rail, you name it.