13 hours ago, troeros said:

Heard from someone higher up who works with Eli’s BBQ that they will not renew their lease at the findley market location and will relocate south of liberty to a larger location with more seating area. 

 

If true, I can understand why. The hours are at the findley market location are super limited and the seating area is super tiny inside.

 

unfortunate for Findlay, but there's enough going on there that I don't think it's going to inhibit the market's continued growth. and it's exciting for Eli's!

Pho Lang Thang is also moving to a storefront in the Market Square development and will vacate their space at Findlay Market. We will probably see more restaurants open in the storefronts on Elm and Race instead of directly at the market. Hopefully this allows Findlay Market to re-envision itself a little bit and cater more to the growing middle class residential population in that part of the neighborhood.

1 minute ago, taestell said:

Pho Lang Thang is also moving to a storefront in the Market Square development and will vacate their space at Findlay Market. We will probably see more restaurants open in the storefronts on Elm and Race instead of directly at the market. Hopefully this allows Findlay Market to re-envision itself a little bit and cater more to the growing middle class residential population in that part of the neighborhood.

interesting! what Findlay probably needs the most is a dry goods store / drugstore. Produce, meat, and dairy are pretty well covered, but the selection of stuff like, oh, baking powder / sugar / canned goods / paper towels / tampons / toilet paper is weak and overpriced.

I'm surprised that one of the existing stores like Madison's or Dean's doesn't try to expand a little bit and sell more dry goods, toiletries, and other stuff that Kroger would stock in the "non-foods" department. If Park+Vine was still around, they would be a perfect compliment to Findlay Market.

Just now, taestell said:

I'm surprised that one of the existing stores like Madison's or Dean's doesn't try to expand a little bit and sell more dry goods, toiletries, and other stuff that Kroger would stock in the "non-foods" department. If Park+Vine was still around, they would be a perfect compliment to Findlay Market.

 

it'd be a great thing to go into the former Epicurean Mercantile space.  I felt bad that they went out of business, but man, their prices were WILD

I disagree that Findlay Market needs a dry goods/drug store type of place, and I don't think Findlay Market needs to have all the stuff you could get during a normal grocery  run. It's a specialty market and tourist attraction, not just another grocery option equal to a Kroger. There are lots of drug stores in the CBD, and I do agree that OTR should probably get one when there is enough population (residential or daytime) to support one. Kroger is building a big new store downtown, too. Findlay needs to be different. It's the place to buy farm fresh produce and meat, try new ethnic cuisines from the markets and restaurants, buy artisan bread and baked goods, etc. Not so much the place to grab some toilet paper or Campbell's soup. Just my opinion.

Just now, edale said:

I disagree that Findlay Market needs a dry goods/drug store type of place, and I don't think Findlay Market needs to have all the stuff you could get during a normal grocery  run. It's a specialty market and tourist attraction, not just another grocery option equal to a Kroger. There are lots of drug stores in the CBD, and I do agree that OTR should probably get one when there is enough population (residential or daytime) to support one. Kroger is building a big new store downtown, too. Findlay needs to be different. It's the place to buy farm fresh produce and meat, try new ethnic cuisines from the markets and restaurants, buy artisan bread and baked goods, etc. Not so much the place to grab some toilet paper or Campbell's soup. Just my opinion.

lots of drug stores in the CBD, but the closest one to the Findlay area are the Walgreens and CVS on Walnut and 6th.

 

I agree that Findlay does need to be different - and it is -  but one store in Findlay being focused on dry goods won't take away from that difference!

Just now, northsider said:

lots of drug stores in the CBD, but the closest one to the Findlay area are the Walgreens and CVS on Walnut and 6th.

 

I agree that Findlay does need to be different - and it is -  but one store in Findlay being focused on dry goods won't take away from that difference!

 

This. Reading Terminal Market in Philly is a much bigger, much more well-known tourist attraction and it has a few dry goods stores. You can accommodate tourists and neighborhood residents. 

Well if it's bigger, it has more space to accommodate such things. Grand Central Market in downtown Los Angeles has no such store, but there are several drug stores in surrounding blocks. I don't remember seeing anything like a dry goods store at West Side Market in Cleveland, but perhaps I missed it. Findlay Market is small. The vast majority of its business comes from visitors on weekends, not from neighborhood support. The area around Findlay Market is still pretty light on activity and residents, and you only have to look at places like EMC and others who have attempted to have more of a comprehensive grocery option (and ultimately closed) for proof that there isn't a market for such a store. It's not really a big issue...I don't care if they add a drug store there, really. I'd just rather see more unique places represented in the market.

Of course Findlay will remain a tourist destination, but with all the new residents moving in at Film Center (and hopefully the other residential developments that will continue to be announced north of Liberty), it would be nice for those residents to be able to walk to the market to pick up not only fresh produce, but whatever other items they may need. Findlay is fairly slow during the week when the tourists aren't there, and catering more to nearby resident could fix that. I think EMC's big problem was that a large portion of their store was dedicated to produce which competes directly with other market vendors. It was also probably a bit too far ahead of its time as the middle class population and their disposable income hasn't quite arrived yet. But fast forward 5 years and I could imagine a "Whole Foods lite" type of storefront that focuses on prepared foods, meal kits, beer, wine, cheese, bulk foods, etc.

 

I wasn't really thinking about the pharmacy aspect but I'm not really sure that it's as critical as it used to be. Yes, since we have 2 CVSes and 2 Walgreens in the CBD, it would be nice to have at least one of those move into OTR. Perhaps it could be a ground floor tenant in Freeport Row or some similar new-build development. Kroger will likely also have a pharmacy at their new CBD store as well. But in general, the pharmacy business seems a little odd right now and I'm not sure what the future might hold for it. Some health care companies seem to be pushing people towards mailed prescriptions so no physical storefront is necessary. Walgreens has converted some of their urban locations to mini-grocery stores.

Findlay Playground to close for renovations until summer 2019:

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/hamilton-county/cincinnati/over-the-rhine/city-to-close-renovate-findlay-playground-in-effort-to-stop-crime

Ive always been curious if that park will remain a park once gentrifcation reaches north of liberty, or if they will reverse that land back for new construction infill. Seems like a waste to leave it as a park imo.

It isn't a city "park".  It is not overseen by the park board, from what I understand, and so can be converted into developable land much more easily.  I wouldn't be surprised if it never reopens or if the renovation is amazingly sparse, with nowhere to sit or sleep. 

There aren't many places that scare me in this town, but that park is one of them. Hope the redux is a positive one.

If they're going to keep it as a park it needs a massive Washington Park-esque renovation.  Doing a half assed renovation isn't going to help it much. 

The history of the Findlay Playground is that it replaced the city playground that used to occupy the space that is now Findlay Market's main parking lot.  That's why it has an unusual legal status and is administered by the city, not the park board. 

 

At this point I see it as providing little useful purpose (very little "playing").  The Vine St. frontage should be redeveloped into a hotel and the center of the block remade from a never-used baseball diamond into a field that actually gets used for soccer and flag football with a basketball court on the north section on the south edge of Findlay St.  There are already 8+ baseball diamonds in the West End. 

I walk by this every time I go downtown or to Washington Park, and while there's a lot of drug use and loitering going on, I honestly never feel unsafe (aside from really late at night when most of the street is deserted outside of a handful of people). Removing the fences helped a lot in my opinion.

 

I have seen football teams practice there and a few other organized youth sports teams, but most of the time it's unused by kids. If the city completely revamped Grant Playground and Hanna Playground, I could see them removing Findlay Playground. Right now, I don't see development happening fast enough to make a sale of that land especially useful. I'd say wait another 5-10 years before considering it, and making improvement to the park infrastructure would be a worthwhile investment.

I agree, I think it makes the most sense to do a quick fix/cheap renovation now, and then revisit it in 5 or 10 years when North of Liberty has really taken off. At that point, it might make sense to spend the money on a Washington Park level renovation of the park with an underground parking garage serving Findlay Market and other businesses and residents of the area.

It's kind of amazing how the two streetcar streets have come alive in the past two years but there hasn't been a single obvious investment in Vine between Liberty and McMicken.   

 

Oddly, there is currently far more renovation activity between McMicken and E. Clifton than there is on the five blocks south of that point. 

Edited October 29, 20186 yr by jmecklenborg

Gondola station (other station being Classen Park). 

It took me a minute but i got it. Long live the wiremobile!!

2 hours ago, thomasbw said:

Gondola station (other station being Classen Park). 

 

I really hope the gondola rumor is true...would be a great addition to otr. Would instantly be a tourist destination for those visiting.

14 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

I walk by this every time I go downtown or to Washington Park, and while there's a lot of drug use and loitering going on, I honestly never feel unsafe (aside from really late at night when most of the street is deserted outside of a handful of people). Removing the fences helped a lot in my opinion.

 

I have seen football teams practice there and a few other organized youth sports teams, but most of the time it's unused by kids. If the city completely revamped Grant Playground and Hanna Playground, I could see them removing Findlay Playground. Right now, I don't see development happening fast enough to make a sale of that land especially useful. I'd say wait another 5-10 years before considering it, and making improvement to the park infrastructure would be a worthwhile investment.

 

I would say the parks reputation speaks for itself. Like mentioned in the article, a lot of crime occurs there. I'm glad you feel safe walking by but a lot of people definitely don't.

There was a story about this on WCPO where they discussed renovating the playground to try and encourage children/families to use the park, while removing all the tables and BBQs to reduce the number of adults loitering at the park. They also mentioned that the hope is to have the park open for next spring. Sounds like they are going to do a limited band-aid fix, which means future larger scale renovation would be easy in 5 years or so. 

During the winter people can be seen burning garbage in the grills to keep warm.  It's like this window back in time to how 90% of American cities were, on a huge scale. 

 

In 2090 people simply won't believe the Hollywood movies from around 1990 like Robocop.  They won't have any piece of their own city that resembles what so much used to be like. 

Off topic... but I recently watched Robocop for the first time expecting a campy 80's movie but that movie is ROUGH. Like a hard R-rating, surprisingly gory, surprisingly dark and like you said an interesting window on urban decay of the era. Another movie from that era is Candyman, similar display of late 80's early 90's urbanity. 

 

Hopefully this whole area gets a Washington Park/Zeigler Park like renewal (though a hardscape plaza, like a fountain square north) in the future because I think it could anchor that section of Vine street from Liberty to the curve up the hill. I personally think either Findlay or Grant playgrounds needs to become a 'center' to the brewery district that currently feels a bit disjointed. 

Edited October 30, 20186 yr by ucgrady

Candyman is awesome

Can anyone explain why it's taking so long for the old Lachey's spot to find a new tenant? It's nearing a year since they announced their closing, and I would've thought that the space would have found a new tenant much quicker than it currently has...

 

It's in a prime spot in OTR. Next to a parking garage, right along the street car line as well. But alas, it's still vacant. 

 

I've heard in the past that 3cdc is very difficult to work with, and charge very high rent rates to businesses leasing their spaces...this makes me wonder if their is some truth to this..especially considering Urban Sites has been filling in new tenants left and right for their recent projects. 

I'm also surprised it hasn't been filled yet but I'm guessing that space's rent is pretty expensive for how big it is.  

It's big and has a bunch of TVs and that ticker board. It could be the anchor sports bar for OTR, especially once FC Cincinnati starts up in the West End. Rhinehaus is good but small, maybe another popular sports bar needs to take it over like Holy Grail.

Is their anyone  “in the know” with the current status of the race st infill project which was delayed because of a printing company occupying the space? Do we know if the printing company finally had left the space that was slated to be demolished? 

 

Also, this is an aside but I hope we figure out what (if any) plans there are for the last block of walnut st are/grammars Bar. The bar in particular is starting to look worse and worse, and that block of walnut is probably the least developed block in all of south of liberty. 

 

Hopefully we find out Wade will do, I still really liked those old renderings that were shown a few years ago. Sad it’s dead now. 

Edited November 1, 20186 yr by troeros

Most of these deals take years, even after announced to finally get under way. My guess is that the Race St project (the one by Washington Park right?) is one of three plays in this city by Steiner and they are going to move on the one that is the easiest path forward (the Columbia Tusculum development). Race Street might be next but it comes down to timing. I'd love for it, and so many other projects to happen tomorrow or even a year from now. But most of the time that's not realistic.

 

As for Grammars, it looks like the buildings are at least being maintained. I saw some scaffolding on one of the buildings the other day. My guess is everything is in a holding pattern until ownership of the site is cleared up.

Just now, troeros said:

Is their anyone  “in the know” with the current status of the race st infill project which was delayed because of a printing company occupying the space? Do we know if the printing company finally had left the space that was slated to be demolished? 

 

Also, this is an aside but I hope we figure out what (if any) plans there are for the last block of walnut st are/grammars Bar. The bar in particular is starting to look worse and worse, and that block of walnut is probably the least developed block in all of south of liberty. 

 

Hopefully we find out Wade will do, I still really liked those old renderings that were shown a few years ago. Sad it’s dead now. 

All Screen is still using the space, the owner has serious health problems that have caused issues with the initial timeline. That's as far as I know. 

Just now, troeros said:

Is their anyone  “in the know” with the current status of the race st infill project which was delayed because of a printing company occupying the space? Do we know if the printing company finally had left the space that was slated to be demolished? 

 

Also, this is an aside but I hope we figure out what (if any) plans there are for the last block of walnut st are/grammars Bar. The bar in particular is starting to look worse and worse, and that block of walnut is probably the least developed block in all of south of liberty. 

 

Hopefully we find out Wade will do, I still really liked those old renderings that were shown a few years ago. Sad it’s dead now. 

 

I am not "in the know" but keep in mind that almost every development that is ever announced will take somewhere between 6 months and 2 years longer than the developer thinks it will take. They probably had to wait until the printing company's lease expired before they can even begin prep work to demolish the existing non-historic buildings. I have no reason to believe that this project has been cancelled. It's just slow to get started.

 

The Grammer's buildings are still owned by "WDC LLC" which was Martin and Marilyn Wade. They announced a major redevelopment plan for those buildings and several other nearby properties in 2014 but then they got divorced and the entire plan got shelved. UrbanSites is currently leasing the Grammer's parking lot and is using it for their tenant's parking. My hope/prediction is that they sell their properties on the west side of Walnut (between 14th and 15th) to 3CDC who then redevelops that entire block including the OTR Kroger site. The east side of Walnut (including Grammer's) would probably be a later phase of development.

18 hours ago, troeros said:

Can anyone explain why it's taking so long for the old Lachey's spot to find a new tenant? It's nearing a year since they announced their closing, and I would've thought that the space would have found a new tenant much quicker than it currently has...

 

It's in a prime spot in OTR. Next to a parking garage, right along the street car line as well. But alas, it's still vacant. 

 

I've heard in the past that 3cdc is very difficult to work with, and charge very high rent rates to businesses leasing their spaces...this makes me wonder if their is some truth to this..especially considering Urban Sites has been filling in new tenants left and right for their recent projects. 

 

These things take time. Some concepts have been advanced for that space but the operator we were working with decided now was not the right to expand. 3CDC tends to like operators that are proven and may already be within their stable of tenants. It's not fair but it's cautious and conservative.

 

On the other end, this region does not have a large talent pool of restaurant/bar/retail operators. We are getting there with the success of places like Findlay Kitchen, but its one of the regions biggest blind spots.

 

As for chain retail, the problem is that most regional retail reps for large retailers are very suburban minded and are still looking at drive-time maps and using outdated historical data showing most urban cores neighborhoods as declining. Most large retailers tend to think whatever is at Newport Pavillion/NOTL as their "downtown location" because it's within a 5 minute drive time from downtown. This is the type of conventional thinking in the industry that holds urban places back. Its especially prevalent in Cincy because of the negative narrative for downtown still somehow is ingrained in these peoples minds, despite facts showing otherwise.

3 hours ago, ucgrady said:

It's big and has a bunch of TVs and that ticker board. It could be the anchor sports bar for OTR, especially once FC Cincinnati starts up in the West End. Rhinehaus is good but small, maybe another popular sports bar needs to take it over like Holy Grail.

 

Yeah, the place was totally and completely boring. 

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend from out of town recently. 

 

He commented on the pace of development in Cincinnati and basically said in a hot real estate market, developers know that delays like this cost them money. Every day a development is not finished is a day they are not making money on the project. So why is there not a lot of urgency in the Cincinnati urban core? 

 

One cause is the small number of developers in the mix (almost all are local).

Another is that developments get caught up in the entitlement process.

Another is the lack of investors (the same people can only invest so much in a certain amount of time).

Another is the labor pool, labor is expensive and there are not enough workers in the region.

Another is the cost of construction does not line up with the price of the product so they need a financing gap.

 

In a hot market like Nashville, investors are putting down money hand over fist to build whatever. The city's FBC actually makes the entitlement process easy and the way Tennessee does TIF districts is pretty loose. Put that on top of a population that grows 100 people a day and you have a sure bet, so developers get moving ASAP.

On 10/22/2018 at 1:52 PM, Ram23 said:

 

More like a Lifestyle Center than a Mall, I suppose. "Streets of OTR"

Malls and then "Lifestyle Centers" replaced downtown retail. It's kind of weird to allege a return to the OG is just mimicking the mimickers.

Lachey's wasn't one of my favorite bars but it served a crowd.  I still think their one worker getting shot had a big impact on the bar closing because they were crowded pretty much every weekend.  As mentioned OTR could use another sports bar and I'm sure more will pop up as the FCC stadium is built.  Someone will eventually take this space, it's in too good of a location to stay empty forever.  

I'm sure a big chain sports bar like Buffalo Wild Wings would love to go into that space, but 3CDC prefers to not fill its storefronts with generic chains, and stick to locally created concepts. Although with a few of the recent tenants on Vine Street (Kit & Ace, Warby Parker, Bonobos), that may be starting to change.

2 hours ago, Robuu said:

Malls and then "Lifestyle Centers" replaced downtown retail. It's kind of weird to allege a return to the OG is just mimicking the mimickers.

 

I think there's a big difference between organic growth retail strips like historic downtown retail was and mass market malls. Compare Findlay Market to a mall food court - if a Sbarro ever opens at Findlay market, I'd say it's mimicking a mall more than a mall was mimicking downtown retail.

In the latest hcb packet it appears that 1518 Race Infill (15 units, ground floor retail) has been approved by the HCB.

 

Also more pleasant st development. That street in 5 years will probably be completely built out at this rate.

Just saw some renderings that are floating around for the new infill building that will replace the Kroger site on Vine. 

 

Looks very akin to the Mercer Building imo.

Mind pointing us in the direction of said renderings?

5 hours ago, taestell said:

Buffalo Wild Wings would love to go into that space, but 3CDC prefers to ... stick to locally created concepts.

 

Does Columbus count as local? ?

Or maybe these folk? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Wings_%26_Rings

8 hours ago, carnevalem said:

 

Does Columbus count as local? ?

Well, BDubs did move their HQ in Cincinnati for a time in the 90s after their OSU begininnings, so...

Edited November 2, 20186 yr by BigDipper 80

10 minutes ago, BigDipper 80 said:

Well, BDubs did move their HQ in Cincinnati for a time in the 90s after their OSU begininnings, so...

 

Yes but BW3 is owned by the equity group out of Atlanta that also owns Arby's. Even before that BW3 HQ moved to Minneapolis from Columbus. 

13 hours ago, Ram23 said:

 

I think there's a big difference between organic growth retail strips like historic downtown retail was and mass market malls. Compare Findlay Market to a mall food court - if a Sbarro ever opens at Findlay market, I'd say it's mimicking a mall more than a mall was mimicking downtown retail.

That's kind of an extreme example, though. Bonobos and Warby Parker aren't at Sbarro level. Also, a market isn't the same as a downtown street, which has a lot more flexibility with its retail before losing its identity as a downtown street than a market would. The Banks could cross the line a lot easier than 4th Street could. 4th Street Live! in Louisville has already crossed the line, I think. If 4th Street in Cincy follows that mold (or a retail equivalent), I'll agree.

13 hours ago, Ram23 said:

 

I think there's a big difference between organic growth retail strips like historic downtown retail was and mass market malls. Compare Findlay Market to a mall food court - if a Sbarro ever opens at Findlay market, I'd say it's mimicking a mall more than a mall was mimicking downtown retail.

 

Well you made your original comment about my comparison to Walnut Street in Philly, which is an organic street that has existed as a retail center since before malls even existed. There are lots of chains, to be sure, but there are also local shops mixed in. There are also tons of local shops on adjacent and intersecting streets where rents are a bit lower. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walnut_Street_(Philadelphia)