15 minutes ago, taestell said:

No, 1709 Race...the small two-story building just south of the Findlay Market parking lot.

whoops...meant to quote jwulsin

1 hour ago, seaswan said:

Am I missing something or do you mean 34 green? 37 Green looks like a perfectly good building (at least in google maps)

 

Yea, it is 34 Green, not 37.

6 hours ago, seaswan said:

Am I missing something or do you mean 34 green? 37 Green looks like a perfectly good building (at least in google maps)

yeah. sorry. It's 34 Green St. I just updated my post with the correct address and updated URL for the HCB packet. 

Can anyone shine some light on what the heck is going on with Freeport Row? 

 

 

First the developers said August/Sept of 2018... Then the biz journal came out with the developer said they would start construction shortly. 

 

They moved some dirt earlier in the year but from what I understand that's about it. 

 

So is this project dead? Did the developer lose all of their financing? I'm just trying to add up this puzzle of this bizarre stop and start development site...?

I heard some information about this project that I can't share publicly, but from what I was told, this project is not going to be breaking ground anytime soon. It's not dead, though.

3 minutes ago, taestell said:

I heard some information about this project that I can't share publicly, but from what I was told, this project is not going to be breaking ground anytime soon. It's not dead, though.

 

Can you share whether it's due to a financial issue or external delays..like are the developers waiting for FCC stadium? 

 

 

 

 One last note, but this also means that the current renderings of freeport are useless since the hcb design only last for 2 years once issued.

 

That means the developers would have to go back to the hcb for the 3rd time...this developer is such a wreck. 

17 hours ago, troeros said:

 

Can you share whether it's due to a financial issue or external delays..like are the developers waiting for FCC stadium? 

 

 

 

 

That was my thought as well. I wonder if they're trying to tie this into the parking they need or something.

No, it's not related to the stadium. It would be nice if they partnered with Hamilton County and incorporated the new FC Cincinnati garage into the center of this development, but that is not what's happening.

So it's not related to the FCC Stadium and not a financing issue...then I'm lost what it could be?

 

Nothing is making sense for the cause of the delay. Is it the liberty diet? A water main? I'm just not following...

10 minutes ago, troeros said:

So it's not related to the FCC Stadium and not a financing issue...then I'm lost what it could be?

 

Nothing is making sense for the cause of the delay. Is it the liberty diet? A water main? I'm just not following...

 

IDK maybe the developer is trying to make a ton of money instead of just a lot, just like every other developer.  

It shouldn't have anything to do with Liberty Street road diet or water main, since those are are affecting the south side of the road, and this is on the north side.   

 

I know that they are working on new In Fill guidelines for OTR.  I honestly can't remember what the last set of design plans for this building looked like, but there is a good chance they would not pass these new infill guidelines.  While the new guidelines are more restrictive, they are also much more clear.  Maybe they are waiting for those new guidelines to go in place so they can submit updated plans.

27 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

IDK maybe the developer is trying to make a ton of money instead of just a lot, just like every other developer.  

 

I see what you are saying...they own the old boys and girls club site right? So Im guessing they want a bigger development plot?  Which would probably mean a resdesign of some sort?

26 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I see what you are saying...they own the old boys and girls club site right? So Im guessing they want a bigger development plot?  Which would probably mean a resdesign of some sort?

 

Once a developer breaks ground, plans can't change.  It's almost like closing on a deal -- you might have made money, but if you did this or that differently, you could have made a lot more.  

 

The developer might be betting that his intersection will be a much better area in five years and he can win approval for a bigger building that commands higher rents.  Or he might simply wait for his land to appreciate and sell the bare land to another developer.  

 

 

 

Keep in mind that Freeport Row was original designed by one developer and then the land and the plans were sold to a different developer to build it. So the new owner might have a slightly different vision for the project than the original owner did.

Now further proof (as if we needed more) that the OTR Community Council are a bunch of clowns with fake metal badges that they bought at the dollar store...

 

3cdc wants to develop new infill at 1400 Race, where a garden now stands.

 

3cdc even offered to move the garden else where in otr but the otr cc objectifies it because it's been a garden for 30 years and thus should always stay a garden for eternity.....even though buildings used to stand there...go figure. 

Edited July 22, 20195 yr by troeros

Community gardens play an important function for many people... and there are still plenty of buildings needing renovation and vacant lots that don't have community gardens on them throughout the neighborhood that could be prioritized. Community Councils play an important role in striking balance in a neighborhood; they aren't clowns, they are people who care and show up. If this were a trash lot, my opinion would be different. If 3CDC owned the property, my opinion would be different (unless OTR Holdings is code for 3CDC, and I didn't know that).

Edited July 23, 20195 yr by Chas Wiederhold
changed "are" to "aren't"

4 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

 If 3CDC owned the property, my opinion would be different (unless OTR Holdings is code for 3CDC, and I didn't know that).

It is.

 

Is this the small corner lot opposite 1400 Race? Isn't Washington Park right across the street? Is a park of this type needed here?

15 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

Community gardens play an important function for many people... and there are still plenty of buildings needing renovation and vacant lots that don't have community gardens on them throughout the neighborhood that could be prioritized. Community Councils play an important role in striking balance in a neighborhood; they are clowns, they are people who care and show up. If this were a trash lot, my opinion would be different. If 3CDC owned the property, my opinion would be different (unless OTR Holdings is code for 3CDC, and I didn't know that).

 

3cdc owns the land... Plus there is so many pocket parks in otr  already because of past demolition... Not to mention all of the parks like Washington and Ziegler, etc. 

Not sure if it is that or the lot north of there, 1410-ish Race Street, which is a more robust and active community garden.

Not all pocket parks are food producing community gardens. As a kid who grew up in the boonies with a half-acre garden that we ate out of and with parents and grandparents who canned, pickled, jammed, froze, and otherwise preserved a handsome percentage of our yearly food supply, I put a lot of value into urban community gardens which are very very different than pocket parks with fountains or playgrounds, or programmed parks like Washington and Ziegler. Saying this as a multi-year member of the OTR People's Community Garden on McMicken Ave. Community Gardens are a necessary amenity in the built environment. If anyone needs me to put on a clown nose and clown shoes to say all of this, I'll do so.

So it looks like 1409-11 Race is owned by OTR Holdings (aka 3CDC).

 

1330 Race at the southeast corner of 14th and Race is owned by a church and is not a real, robust garden.

 

Honestly, if 3CDC wants to develop the land, they should be able to. Especially if they are willing to move the garden. They are paying $2713/year in property taxes for that double lot according to CAGIS. A prominent street like Race right on the streetcar line doesn't really need a community garden on it in my opinion. If they move it to a smaller side street like Pleasant I think that would be more appropriate (I don't know where the proposed relocation would go).

4 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

Not all pocket parks are food producing community gardens. As a kid who grew up in the boonies with a half-acre garden that we ate out of and with parents and grandparents who canned, pickled, jammed, froze, and otherwise preserved a handsome percentage of our yearly food supply, I put a lot of value into urban community gardens which are very very different than pocket parks with fountains or playgrounds, or programmed parks like Washington and Ziegler. Saying this as a multi-year member of the OTR People's Community Garden on McMicken Ave. Community Gardens are a necessary amenity in the built environment. If anyone needs me to put on a clown nose and clown shoes to say all of this, I'll do so.

 

I think saying the OTR community council are clowns is over the top. They clearly have their hearts in the right place on this. But, that being said, it seems reasonable to move this garden to another location to allow for infill on land that 3CDC owns. If I was allowing a community garden on my vacant lot and then decided I wanted to develop it should the government be able to stop me from doing that? That's a huge disincentive for allowing community gardens in the first place. 3CDC and the like will think twice when approached about a community garden if they know it means they will NEVER be allowed to develop the property again.

19 minutes ago, DEPACincy said:

 

I think saying the OTR community council are clowns is over the top. They clearly have their hearts in the right place on this. But, that being said, it seems reasonable to move this garden to another location to allow for infill on land that 3CDC owns. If I was allowing a community garden on my vacant lot and then decided I wanted to develop it should the government be able to stop me from doing that? That's a huge disincentive for allowing community gardens in the first place. 3CDC and the like will think twice when approached about a community garden if they know it means they will NEVER be allowed to develop the property again.

The issue for me with the OTR CC is that they are like Cranley. They like to try and stick their noses in places where they do not belong (Pendleton apartment project) and that they seem hesitant to really allow any modern structures to be built. 

Here is the specific lot/parcel/garden in question: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1107689,-84.5170911,3a,75y,255.14h,88.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szieYzOhkczvU7vmnkQVEfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

It is owned by 3CDC. The director/manager of the garden, Chris Uihlein, presented at the meeting. He thanked 3CDC for working with his organization to find another spot for the garden, and asked the Community Council to support the garden by asking 3CDC to delay demolishing the garden until a new location could be found. 3CDC has confirmed that the parcel won't change hands until the new developer (not 3CDC) has all financing in place, permits approved, and designs approved by HCB. So, there's still some time to go before the property would transfer.

28 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

Here is the specific lot/parcel/garden in question: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1107689,-84.5170911,3a,75y,255.14h,88.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szieYzOhkczvU7vmnkQVEfg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

 

It is owned by 3CDC. The director/manager of the garden, Chris Uihlein, presented at the meeting. He thanked 3CDC for working with his organization to find another spot for the garden, and asked the Community Council to support the garden by asking 3CDC to delay demolishing the garden until a new location could be found. 3CDC has confirmed that the parcel won't change hands until the new developer (not 3CDC) has all financing in place, permits approved, and designs approved by HCB. So, there's still some time to go before the property would transfer.

So wait, this is going to happen? The earlier comments made it out like the CC blocked it from happening? But your comment suggests it will happen, as long as it can be moved. 

The community council cannot unilaterally stop something from happening. They can oppose something, and that is the neighborhood's official stance. But the city itself (the Historic Conservation Board, Planning Department, and City Council) has the real power.

I haven't been following along with the specifics of this proposal but keep in mind that community councils don't have much real power in Cincinnati unless there is a CBA or similar type of agreement in place. They can make recommendations and vote to support or oppose a project, but ultimately HCB, ZBA, and City Council have the power.

Haha, @ryanlammi and I typed almost the exact same thing at the same time.

Gotcha. That's what I figured, but I just wanted to check! 

Correct. 3CDC is within their legal rights to sell the property. The new developer - like anybody - will have to go through the normal HCB approval process for new construction. 

 

The Community Council vote doesn't legally prohibit 3CDC from moving forward.

In a climate like Cincinnati’s, a community garden gets used for maybe half the year. I’m all for urban farming and letting urban residents get their hands dirty and grow their own veggies and herbs, and I think community gardens are great spaces to build community. That said, a site that sees activity half the year on a primary arterial on the streetcar route is not the best use of that land. There are many other sites that could be used for gardens, and I think it’d be really great to see one up near Findlay Market. Also, in a city like Cincinnati, people have very easy access to the country and real farms and stuff. It’s not like NYC or LA where produce grown at urban farms is the only local produce within 50-75 miles. 

It's good to hear that 3CDC is offering up some sort of land transfer agreement. 

 

People like growing their own food in close proximity to their home. Within their own neighborhood. Nobody who rents a plot in a community garden in OTR is going out to Goshen to tend to their veggies.

1 hour ago, edale said:

 It’s not like NYC or LA where produce grown at urban farms is the only local produce within 50-75 miles. 

 

 

8 minutes ago, Chas Wiederhold said:

People like growing their own food in close proximity to their home. Within their own neighborhood. Nobody who rents a plot in a community garden in OTR is going out to Goshen to tend to their veggies.

 

Yes, I agree. I already said I think community gardens serve a great purpose for urban residents who don't have the space or land to garden. I think rooftop gardens should become more common as the basin loses more of its abandoned/under-utilized lots. For people who don't have options, community gardens are great.

 

But if you're an urban resident of OTR, Mt. Adams...wherever and you have a car, there are many better options for getting your farm fix. Turner Farm in Indian Hill welcomes volunteers to plant, tend, and pick their crops. I know several people who live in the city but go out there once a week or so during the summer to get out of the city and get their hands dirty. The fact that something like this (or Gorman Farm in Evendale...probably plenty of others, too) exists not way out in the boonies like Goshen but within Hamilton County and like 20 mins away from the city center is pretty remarkable. Those types of options don't exist in bigger cities, so the urban farms become that much more important.

 

@jmecklenborg ah, yes, the Manhattan cornfield. There was a similar cornfield...'installation?' in an old rail yard outside of Downtown LA that has since been turned into a park. While it's not really the same as urban farming, LA does have citrus trees all over the place, so people do have access to home grown fruits! Several of my coworkers will bring in bags of lemons or oranges to work from the trees in their yards. I've always thought that's kinda cool.

1 hour ago, edale said:

 It’s not like NYC or LA where produce grown at urban farms is the only local produce within 50-75 miles. 

 

Not to nitpick, but there are plenty of farms within 30 miles of Manhattan. 

 

https://goo.gl/maps/27UK8AVA6MMbJvZ59

 

https://goo.gl/maps/WAFrK7HzDKEddUt78

 

https://goo.gl/maps/XH1USWAVYxvF46y89

 

https://goo.gl/maps/hYGoP6U2WMBjhoJfA

 

Go 50 miles out in some directions and you're completely surrounded by farm fields. 

 

Plus, just like in Cincinnati, lots of people in the city go to farmer's markets in their neighborhoods where farmers bring the produce to them. 

 

Counterpoint to myself: It is very hard for folks in the city who can't afford a car to get out to Indian Hill or Goshen or wherever and there is a benefit to having them be able to grow their own food. 

 

In the end, I see a place for urban community gardens, but I think we need density in our urban core more. Hopefully this will get relocated to a place nearby and we get a quality development. Win-win situation.

 

I think urban gardens and temporary parks are a great use for vacant lots in the urban core, but ultimately the highest and best use for that land is to have buildings built on it, and have people living and businesses operating in those buildings. The problem is that when "temporary" parks or gardens are built, a subset of the community mistakenly thinks that they are permanent, and then when there is a proposal to do something more productive with that land, it is met with opposition. When Freeport Row was proposed, there was opposition to that development from certain community members on the basis that the land was temporarily used as a community garden a few years back. So some members of the community would rather see a large chunk of prime real estate in the most walkable/transit-rich area of our region remain vacant rather than have it used for a more productive use.

OTR developer’s demolition bid runs into turbulence

 

The Cincinnati Historic Conservation Board denied a developer’s request to demolish an Over-the-Rhine building that is not considered historic, saying that he first must come up with a plan to redevelop the site.

 

The Historic Conservation declined to allow a building at 34 Green St. in Over-the-Rhine to be demolished without a plan to redevelop the site.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/07/23/otr-developer-s-demolition-bidruns-into-turbulence.html

 

1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

 

Not to nitpick, but there are plenty of farms within 30 miles of Manhattan. 

 

 

Not to nitpick, but allow me to nitpick and totally miss the original point ?

38 minutes ago, edale said:

 

Not to nitpick, but allow me to nitpick and totally miss the original point ?

 

No, I got your point and I agreed with it. I was just pointing out that NYC maybe wasn't the best example in this situation. And that's why I said, not to nitpick, because I fully recognize that it is tangential to your larger point. 

1 hour ago, DEPACincy said:

 

No, I got your point and I agreed with it. I was just pointing out that NYC maybe wasn't the best example in this situation. And that's why I said, not to nitpick, because I fully recognize that it is tangential to your larger point. 

 

Understood. Sorry for the crankiness...replied right before lunch and was prob. hangry lol

Hard to believe that within a year, there will probably be a business operating in the ground floor of the Meiners building. Vine Street will basically be "done" between Central Parkway and Liberty (lots of gaps left to fill in, of course):

 

 

Interior construction of the upper floors is coming along too:

 

 

Fencing and signage installed around buildings on Woodward Street that are part of the Willkommen project.

What about the handful of buildings on the west side of Vine between 15th and Liberty?  Does 3CDC own any of those?  Also the two buildings between Kaze and Kroger still need to be developed.  That green building (forget the name) I still hope someday becomes a brewery/beer garden again like it was a century ago.  

 

Knocking down that Kroger and making it a parking lot will help get rid of all the loitering that goes on there.  I really hope 3CDC develops that area soon though, it's one of the few large areas left for development in OTR south of Liberty. 

4 minutes ago, Cincy513 said:

What about the handful of buildings on the west side of Vine between 15th and Liberty?  Does 3CDC own any of those?  Also the two buildings between Kaze and Kroger still need to be developed.  That green building (forget the name) I still hope someday becomes a brewery/beer garden again like it was a century ago.  

 

Knocking down that Kroger and making it a parking lot will help get rid of all the loitering that goes on there.  I really hope 3CDC develops that area soon though, it's one of the few large areas left for development in OTR south of Liberty. 

 

Just assuming, but I'm going to throw a guess and say the Wielert Building (the green building) will ultimately be rehabbed once a final development plan comes together for the otr Kroger site. 

 

It's pretty obvious that 3cdc wants to do a much larger scale project, similar to the Mercer project, with development stretching from Vine to Walnut. 

Yes, the parking lot and cluster of buildings on the west side of Vine (just north of the Kruckmeyer condos) are going to be redeveloped by 3CDC soon. I can't remember the name of that project and it's not listed on 3CDC's site yet.

 

Kroger will be demolished and replaced by a temporary parking lot as soon as the new store opens. I suspect 3CDC is still trying to acquire the former "Grammers Place" lots on the west site of Walnut before they redevelop that site.

Just as an aside, there are more photos of the Meiners rehab on 3cdc Flickr account and I have to say the building looks incredibly beautiful with the addition of new windows and refurnishing it's brick facade. 

 

Its quickly becoming one of my favorite historic structures in otr.

Hard to believe that 12yrs or so ago they had to have a Kickstarter/Gofundme to save Meiners from demo. My significant other at the time didnt agree with me that we needed to chip in but im glad many others did. Would have been a sad loss , especially now seeing what it has become.

25 minutes ago, SleepyLeroy said:

Hard to believe that 12yrs or so ago they had to have a Kickstarter/Gofundme to save Meiners from demo. My significant other at the time didnt agree with me that we needed to chip in but im glad many others did. Would have been a sad loss , especially now seeing what it has become.

 

Here's a good write-up on the effort from 2011.

 

https://overtherhine.wordpress.com/2011/07/29/the-recent-history-of-meiner-flats/

2 hours ago, taestell said:

Yes, the parking lot and cluster of buildings on the west side of Vine (just north of the Kruckmeyer condos) are going to be redeveloped by 3CDC soon. I can't remember the name of that project and it's not listed on 3CDC's site yet.

 

Kroger will be demolished and replaced by a temporary parking lot as soon as the new store opens. I suspect 3CDC is still trying to acquire the former "Grammers Place" lots on the west site of Walnut before they redevelop that site.

 

However, the buildings closest to Liberty St. north of the former Empire Theater are still independently owned.