^I think building more office would help too. I actually think that could be the best future is put in as much office as possible and add all the residents in the downtown core in high rises. That way it's day and night visitors. I always thought during the business day Vine Street is very dead. It could use a lot more office space in the core of the neighborhood for daytime activity, and downtown could use more nighttime activity with residents.

3 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

^I think building more office would help too. I actually think that could be the best future is put in as much office as possible and add all the residents in the downtown core in high rises. That way it's day and night visitors. I always thought during the business day Vine Street is very dead. It could use a lot more office space in the core of the neighborhood for daytime activity, and downtown could use more nighttime activity with residents.

 

Alot of 3cdc recent work in otr has been very heavily geared towards new office space. 

 

The Meiners, Behlen Building all contain ground floor commercial space with office on the upper floors. 

 

I think otr has enough historic stock + infill lots to where it can supply a sufficient balance of office/residential/commercial. 

2 hours ago, troeros said:

 

You see, this is kind of my point on how the average visitor views otr as a whole.

 

If you ask a person who visits otr and is from anywhere in greater cincinnati they will say that Vine Street from Taste of Belgium to the Eagle is otr, and main Street is , "downtown". 

 

Or Music Hall to Greaters is all of OTR. 

 

Or hell, some people still just park at the closest Findlay Market parking lot and say Rhinegeist to Findlay Market is all of otr.

 

I almost get the impression that the 24 year old, bar hopping from Queen City Radio to the Lackman to Mecca on Walnut and Mr. Pitifuls on main have a better impression of what otr is simply due to the nature of exploring the neighborhood by foot through bar hopping. 

 

I think older people from greater cincinnati are still primarily people who visit on a Saturday during the day time or afternoon and primarily focus on resturaunts and maybe the occasional bar that's near by to the restaurant they just visited. 

 

I think we need more resturaunts to create "resturaunt hopping" for older day time visitors, which I think in theory could break the mental Barrier. 

 

The small artsy shops and places like take away on main are great. But like you said, they don't really attract the average greater cincinnati visitor, except for maybe an art academy student/near by otr resident. 

 

I think LouVino,  Aladdin's, and Wodka Bar are excellent additions to Main. But the street as a whole definitely could handle at least 6-8 more high quality Resturaunts, which I think would help spillover some of the Vine Street crowds on to main during the day. 

 

 

If you wan't an actually self-sustaining downtown core, you can't cater everything to the "average visitor/tourist". If suburban/exurban visitors think OTR is just Findlay Market, Rhinegeist, and Vine Street, cool. They were probably never going to explore anything outside of those areas *anyway*  and there's no good reason to try and steer them elsewhere. Continue aiming for a sustainable mix of commercial/residential/office that is interesting to people who want to spend more time in the other parts of OTR. I much prefer Main because it has a really organic, eclectic mix of ground-level storefronts and is frankly good people-watching material. There's nothing interesting to me about standing on the patio in Bakersfield and watching the same groups of suburbanites bar hop. However, sitting on the patio outside MOTR is fascinating because of the mix of people doing different things--going to the park, biking, bar-hopping, carrying furniture, etc. Good urban development isn't categorized and micromanaged block by block. It happens organically when the barrier to entry is low (ie, no parking minimums) for development so you get a variety of uses that respond to residents and occasional visitors.

 

I think people are getting a little picky.  The baseline situation in Over-the-Rhine lends itself to a much better environment in 2030 than the rebounds & urban booms in similar midsized cities.  

 

We have "fine-grained" streetscapes and, as importantly, much more diversified ownership of parcels on individual blocks as compared to the southern boom cities.  We have some local ownership of storefront businesses as opposed to non-stop chains in the Dallas Donut apartment buildings that comprise the bulk of the city revivals elsewhere.  

 

Also, the Cincinnati basin has on-street metered parking on most streets, which creates a more low-key pedestrian environment than elsewhere.  For example, the new towers lining the super-narrow streets in Nashville don't have space for on-street parking and so walking on the sidewalks is a little unnerving despite the very narrow width of the streets.  

3 hours ago, troeros said:

The small artsy shops and places like take away on main are great. But like you said, they don't really attract the average greater cincinnati visitor, except for maybe an art academy student/near by otr resident. 

 

Whether visitors from other Cincinnati neighborhoods "discover" Main Street is not important to me at all. I think you believe that every street in OTR needs to be full of visitors every day in order to be successful. But if you look at any successful city, there are pockets that are more tourist oriented and pockets are are slower, quieter, and more focused on the needs of the residents, and that's perfectly fine! What attracted me to buy a condo on Main Street in 2012 was the fact that it wasn't Vine Street. I liked the fact that Main has independent businesses, you don't have to wait 3 hours to get into MOTR for brunch, you can go to the outdoor patio at Iris and be in a quiet, peaceful place in the middle of the city. I am totally in favor of rehabbing all of the vacant buildings in the neighborhood and filling them with new residents and businesses, and putting new developments on the remaining surface lots. But I would hate it if Main started losing some of the quirkier businesses that make it an interesting place to live in order to add more Thunderdome Group restaurants in an attempt to attract more suburban couples coming into the city for their one big date night of the month.

35 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

Whether visitors from other Cincinnati neighborhoods "discover" Main Street is not important to me at all. I think you believe that every street in OTR needs to be full of visitors every day in order to be successful. But if you look at any successful city, there are pockets that are more tourist oriented and pockets are are slower, quieter, and more focused on the needs of the residents, and that's perfectly fine! What attracted me to buy a condo on Main Street in 2012 was the fact that it wasn't Vine Street. I liked the fact that Main has independent businesses, you don't have to wait 3 hours to get into MOTR for brunch, you can go to the outdoor patio at Iris and be in a quiet, peaceful place in the middle of the city. I am totally in favor of rehabbing all of the vacant buildings in the neighborhood and filling them with new residents and businesses, and putting new developments on the remaining surface lots. But I would hate it if Main started losing some of the quirkier businesses that make it an interesting place to live in order to add more Thunderdome Group restaurants in an attempt to attract more suburban couples coming into the city for their one big date night of the month.

 

Foot traffic is vital for any urban business to succeed. 

 

Main Street has a higher turnover of small businesses and I believe that has alot to do with small amout of foot traffic during the day. If you can help these small businesses by adding resturaunts wedged in between these small businesses wouldn't this help generate more foot traffic and in turn help more Small Businesses on main thrive?

16 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Foot traffic is vital for any urban business to succeed. 

 

Main Street has a higher turnover of small businesses and I believe that has alot to do with small amout of foot traffic during the day. If you can help these small businesses by adding resturaunts wedged in between these small businesses wouldn't this help generate more foot traffic and in turn help more Small Businesses on main thrive?

There are a fair amount of restaurants on main that get plenty of foot traffic. They're just all concentrated south of E 13th. The northern part of Main happens to be more retail and a few bars sprinkled in. What would be better for foot traffic further north on that block would be making a more comfortable/seamless pedestrian crossing experience on Liberty. The road diet could have done that but...

Edited December 3, 20195 yr by cincyquaker

It works both ways. Adding restaurants might generate some more foot traffic but then you also need to add more residents and businesses to support those restaurants. Two restaurants have failed in eastern OTR/Pendleton in the last 2 years (The Royal and CHX) because there wasn’t enough business. I feel like Main Street has just about the appropriate number of restaurants currently—Lucy Blue, Aladdin’s, Goodfella’s, LouVino, Iris, The Takeaway/Boombox Buns, MOTR, The Pony. Plus a few other bars that offer light snacks, a coffee shop, and Buzzed Bull for dessert. That covers a wide variety of price points and styles of food. Of course there are plenty of styles of food that don’t exist yet in OTR that I would love to see added, but you can’t go crazy with adding nothing but new restaurants if there isn’t the market there to support it yet.

Exactly, it is much more sustainable for businesses if they have residents. 

 

For example: I live in Wyoming, I go to the 3 restaurants and coffee shop within walking distance on a more than weekly basis.  I go downtown once every month or so, and rarely patronize the same restaurant twice.  With visitors, it can be very tough to get a consistent customer base and you are subject to the trends and reviews of internet strangers.  Things can vary wildly.

 

I imagine that office workers also behave similarly to residents in that they find places nearby that they will regularly hit up for lunch.

That's absolutely true. When I go out to eat with my wife in OTR I'm always trying a new place or looking for something different along Vine or up by Findlay. Monday through Friday I go Goodfellas and Coffee Emporium over and over and over again.

13 hours ago, 10albersa said:

Exactly, it is much more sustainable for businesses if they have residents. 

 

For example: I live in Wyoming, I go to the 3 restaurants and coffee shop within walking distance on a more than weekly basis.  I go downtown once every month or so, and rarely patronize the same restaurant twice.  With visitors, it can be very tough to get a consistent customer base and you are subject to the trends and reviews of internet strangers.  Things can vary wildly.

 

I imagine that office workers also behave similarly to residents in that they find places nearby that they will regularly hit up for lunch.

 

Is their any data on how much of main street is occupied by residents versus unoccupied. 

 

Most of Main Street seemed rehabbed, and there really isn't much infill opportunity to increase density on main either.

 

I'm curious how vine compares to main in terms of residential occupancy if there are disparities? 

Main Street is likely more densely populated than Vine Street purely due to the fact that there were very few demolitions along Main Street and almost all the buildings are residential above. Whereas on Vine there are still several large gaps and a lot of the new infill and rehabs are office space. Which is good since variety is what a mixed use neighborhood needs.

 

The downside though is that BECAUSE Main saw fewer demolitions there are more storefronts to fill. The reality is that Main likely won't be "full" until Sycamore gets developed with primarily residential buildings and Pendleton fills out more since both those areas will be much lighter proportionally in terms of ground floor retail space.

Main Street also did not fall as far as other parts of the neighborhood. So while 3CDC and other developers have been able to buy vacant buildings on other streets, gut them, and do full rehabs into high end condos or office space, that was not possible on Main Street. 3CDC has only done 2 relatively small projects on Main Street so far, Falling Wall and Belmain. There are several condo buildings that were last renovated in the 1990s so they are way more affordable than the more recent 3CDC renovations on other streets. Many of the condo units are also being rented out. So the point I'm getting at is that the residential population on Main is overall not as wealthy as, say, Vine/Elm/Race, and it makes sense that the businesses on Main are largely neighborhood pubs, dive bars, and delis, and not high end restaurants like Vine.

22 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

 

My thing is, I don't know of a way to measure it without really doing a ton of work, but I would guess the amount of parking per unit or restauarant seat, etc. has been steadilly decreasing in the last 5 years.

 

Absolutely. Which is why I said it is annoying to see people on this board constantly posting about how we need more parking. My position and yours are the same. Which is that the market will decide, and that the market has been steadily moving away from more parking. Here's a piece from today's NY Times:
 

Sales of parking lots may rise further, research shows. The parking industry is still generally strong nationwide, with revenue up 1 percent annually since 2014, according to a report released in May by the research firm IBISWorld. But the same report forecast a bumpy road ahead, with annual revenue growth shrinking to 0.2 percent through 2024 and a wave of consolidation hitting the industry.

 

The report cited factors for the change, including an increase in traffic congestion, which dissuades drivers; greater interest in car-pooling and cycling, as well as a rise in bike infrastructure like new lanes; and a surge in the use of public transportation and ride-hailing services like Uber and Lyft.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/03/business/parking-lot-death-redevelopment.html

Has there been a surge in public transit?  Seems all I've been hearing lately is the opposite, except in a few places like Seattle and maybe Denver.  Chicago has been hemorrhaging riders, as have LA, Boston, DC, and Atlanta.  It's really worrisome actually since gas prices have been kept so low. 

McMicken St. beer garden, 12/7/19:

New apartments on Sycamore St., 12/7/19:

On 12/7/2019 at 5:38 PM, jmecklenborg said:

McMicken St. beer garden, 12/7/19:

I'm really looking forward to this project. I was afraid it had stalled but glad to see it is still moving forward. The developers have a few buildings on this stretch of McMicken and this bar (Somerset IIRC?) should really help bring people up from the nearby Main Street intersection and Moerlein brewery.

 

McMicken is the last major street in OTR that still feels sketchy to me, so it's great to see this kind of investment.

28 minutes ago, ucgrady said:

I'm really looking forward to this project. I was afraid it had stalled but glad to see it is still moving forward. The developers have a few buildings on this stretch of McMicken and this bar (Somerset IIRC?) should really help bring people up from the nearby Main Street intersection and Moerlein brewery.

 

McMicken is the last major street in OTR that still feels sketchy to me, so it's great to see this kind of investment.

 

It took quite a bit of time for people to feel comfortable enough to walk to Rhinegeist from South of Liberty back when the entire Findlay Market area wasn't as developed. 

 

I imagine most people will Uber to this new bar, or be in very large groups fot safety purposes. 

 

From what I recall this bar will close around midnight most nights, so that street will still be rather dead and uncomfortable to be in after that time. 

 

 

Rhinegeist closed at midnight every night until the rooftop bar opened. This bar will only be ~700 feet from Liberty's Bar and Bottle (which is still popular) and less than a 1000 feet from Woodward/ MOTR. I think plenty of people will walk there.

 

By comparison Rhinegeist is 700 feet from Findlay Market, and almost half a mile from Tafts/Pleasantry/Zula which was the nearest cluster of bars until the area around Findlay started to pick up recently. 

On 12/4/2019 at 2:30 PM, jjakucyk said:

Has there been a surge in public transit?  Seems all I've been hearing lately is the opposite, except in a few places like Seattle and maybe Denver.  Chicago has been hemorrhaging riders, as have LA, Boston, DC, and Atlanta.  It's really worrisome actually since gas prices have been kept so low. 

 

Bus ridership is trending down. But those people haven't been switching to private car use as much as they have been using rideshare services. On the other hand, rail transit usage is up in many places. Seattle is the most notable. Another example would be Philly, where the commuter rail system hit an all-time high in ridership a few years ago. Metro North also hit an all-time high in 2017. Minneapolis has seen significant gains in light rail ridership. Denver rail ridership is up. One notable exception is the DC Metro, which has seen declining ridership for years. However, they are also projecting an increase in ridership this year. So maybe the tide has turned there.

On 12/3/2019 at 12:06 PM, jmecklenborg said:

I walked around DT Nashville for about 5 hours this past weekend.  Everything new is a Dallas Donut or otherwise has its parking on-site.  There is almost no functional street activity (aside from tourists) because people don't walk anywhere, despite being downtown or within walking distance of it.  

 

I was in Buenos Aires last week, and it was very interesting to see what is happening in the hot growth areas (particularly the Palermo neighborhood), in relation to parking. It seems like about everywhere they can, developers are putting up tall residential towers in the footprint of older 1-4ish story buildings. These towers invariably get an underground parking garage below them. So while the neighborhood is extremely dense and is getting more dense, with a subway and a number and frequency of bus lines that was head-spinning, as well as an exceptionally vibrant street life, private parking accommodation was a very high priority. The driving culture was correspondingly New World, too, with motorists showing no regard for pedestrians at unsignalized crosswalks, etc.

 

The blocks are pretty short and the grid network redundant enough, I guess, that there wasn't perpetual gridlock. And I suppose there is a bit of an economic restriction based on the number of people that can afford these parking spaces. But the paradox of it is fascinating.

 

Here are a couple examples of what this looks like:
https://www.google.com/maps/@-34.5843578,-58.4257009,3a,90y,121.32h,88.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGFerDs6I0bkRUmD1o5IeGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@-34.5872721,-58.4232439,3a,75y,53.2h,90.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGl1jKlHp89fSGUuEndopMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Meiners/Behlen update from 3CDC (12/3):

 

 

 

 

 

Huge buildings, huge project for OTR.

How did that 5-story building get past the review board? It's so obviously out of scale for the neighborhood! /s

Can't wait till work begins on the Weilerts building. The crown jewel of otr imo. 

3 minutes ago, troeros said:

Can't wait till work begins on the Weilerts building. The crown jewel of otr imo. 

 

They were doing mechanical/roof work on it yesterday.

8 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

 

They were doing mechanical/roof work on it yesterday.

 

Is 3cdc just doing structural stabilization or did they announce plans already for this building? The coming soon banner has been up on weilerts for a while, so I hope that a full rehab is now in progress to bring a new tenant...also I wont accept anything less than a late night beer hall/beer garden...anything else would be a missed opportunity. 

23 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

Is 3cdc just doing structural stabilization or did they announce plans already for this building? The coming soon banner has been up on weilerts for a while, so I hope that a full rehab is now in progress to bring a new tenant...also I wont accept anything less than a late night beer hall/beer garden...anything else would be a missed opportunity. 

 

No new tenant yet from what I have heard. The land on the back that used to be the beer garden is supposed to be included in the parking lot/future garage development on the old Kroger site. There may be some patio on the back of the building but it won't be the large outdoor space Weilert's had in its heyday. It's a cool building, some of the crown molding is still in-tact. The building is about 2,500 square feet on the first floor from what I remember, not sure what you do with the upstairs besides office space.

3 hours ago, troeros said:

Can't wait till work begins on the Weilerts building. The crown jewel of otr imo. 

 

They were working on the roof of that building today. Looks like that building and next to it are getting rehabbed. 

 

Also there is interior demo going on at the building on the northeast corner of Race and Liberty, the old Race Inn and the pair of buildings with the Rosemary Clooney mural on Pleasant. 

I thought it would be cool if Behlen was a brighter color or a dark red. I wonder what goes into the selection process in regards to color? I know next to nothing about this so please don't make fun of me for suggesting!

 

That said, it seems kind of "understating" the building, a dark red would have been really cool.

 

Also what's going on with the paint on Meiner, are they keeping the "facade" that Indiana type limestone or whatever it is (of course) but then painting the brick sides that dark purple?

55 minutes ago, IAGuy39 said:

I thought it would be cool if Behlen was a brighter color or a dark red. I wonder what goes into the selection process in regards to color? I know next to nothing about this so please don't make fun of me for suggesting!

 

I have heard that cities are legally not allowed to mandate specific colors that are allowed or disallowed in historic districts. So it is basically up to the developer. I wonder if 3CDC has some sort of internal palette that the use for their projects.

4 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

I have heard that cities are legally not allowed to mandate specific colors that are allowed or disallowed in historic districts. So it is basically up to the developer. I wonder if 3CDC has some sort of internal palette that the use for their projects.

 

It seems they could make it a super bright and colorful area but most of the colors are pretty understated, they probably want the focus on the stores and the background be the beautiful buildings.

 

I've never been to Charleston but it seems their historic district is a bit more colorful/light. It is also on the ocean so goes more with that.

10 hours ago, troeros said:

 

Is 3cdc just doing structural stabilization or did they announce plans already for this building? The coming soon banner has been up on weilerts for a while, so I hope that a full rehab is now in progress to bring a new tenant...also I wont accept anything less than a late night beer hall/beer garden...anything else would be a missed opportunity. 

Totally agree. If I had infinite money I’d love to put a German beer hall in there. 

7 hours ago, IAGuy39 said:

 

It seems they could make it a super bright and colorful area but most of the colors are pretty understated, they probably want the focus on the stores and the background be the beautiful buildings.

 

I've never been to Charleston but it seems their historic district is a bit more colorful/light. It is also on the ocean so goes more with that.

 

The brightly painted buildings fade pretty quickly in Cincinnati.  At best the full vividness lasts a year, and of course some colors and paint types fade much more quickly than others. 

 

In the south the sunlight is significantly brighter, plus the bright colors are often stucco, not painted brick.  I remember the first time I took a manual 35mm camera to Miami.  I saw light meter readings that were 2 stops brighter than anything I had ever seen in Cincinnati, so 4x brighter. 

 

Also, I can remember when specific houses were painted, and how great they looked at the time, and how awful they look now.  For example, this house near the zoo was the star of the block when it was painted in 1998 or 1999.  Now it's just a bum:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1394479,-84.5094589,3a,27.1y,310.62h,92.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szX67NqL8hFMcrvcRUuLiSw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

 

 

That's but one reason why painting brick is a very bad idea.

9 hours ago, GCrites80s said:

That's but one reason why painting brick is a very bad idea.

 

Some brick needs to be painted for proper maintenance - but yeah - if your brick isn't painted, don't paint it.

Painted Brick is fine. Unpainted brick requires constant sealing and tuck pointing which no one does. The paint protects the brick and lasts longer than painted wood siding.

Additionally, a TON of buildings in OTR have completely new brick patched in all over, sometimes entire facades. As a result the raw brick is extremely unsightly.

Remember when Anchor supposedly went out of business because of the parking permits? Well, that space wasn't vacant very long:

https://photos.citybeat.com/inside-over-the-rhines-losanti-a-boutique-steakhouse-in-the-former-anchor-otr-space/?slide=1&losanti_hb

On 12/9/2019 at 12:05 PM, DEPACincy said:

 

Bus ridership is trending down. But those people haven't been switching to private car use as much as they have been using rideshare services. On the other hand, rail transit usage is up in many places. Seattle is the most notable. Another example would be Philly, where the commuter rail system hit an all-time high in ridership a few years ago. Metro North also hit an all-time high in 2017. Minneapolis has seen significant gains in light rail ridership. Denver rail ridership is up. One notable exception is the DC Metro, which has seen declining ridership for years. However, they are also projecting an increase in ridership this year. So maybe the tide has turned there.

 

Enemies of transit that invested heavily in ride sharing are disappointed in the results of their investments since they decreased bus usage but didn't affect or even supported rail transit. Enemies of transit don't mind buses so much but despise rail.

 

Trying to understand why 3cdc would ask a rather successful tenant to leave? Does anyone know if their are some plans for this space?

Yet another OTR business I didn't hear about until it closed.  Get neon signs.  Advertise on the radio. 

10 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

Yet another OTR business I didn't hear about until it closed.  Get neon signs.  Advertise on the radio. 

 

 

They aren't closing, they are relocating because of 3cdc request. Panino is very popular especially with the lunch crowd. 

Edited December 13, 20195 yr by troeros

Dang, I love Panino. Where are they moving to? 

I don't think they know yet. Obviously 3CDC has specific plans for the Panino space, and hopefully Panino gets a decent sum of money to relocate.

2 minutes ago, cincydave8 said:

Dang, I love Panino. Where are they moving to? 

 

No clue. I imagine they will stay in otr, they are pretty ingrained with the business community and are part of the otr food tours. 

I would assume it has something to do with Ghost Baby going below. They may want to have a more fashionable bar rather than a restaurant/butcher in the space.

Just now, Chas Wiederhold said:

I would assume it has something to do with Ghost Baby going below. They may want to have a more fashionable bar rather than a restaurant/butcher in the space.

 

I almost wonder if any of the meat scent would linger down to the cellars? That could be a logical reason for the move if so. 

 

Ghost baby owners may have also wanted to have a ground floor bar, with signage facing Vine Street rather than being hidden away behind republic. 

24 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

I almost wonder if any of the meat scent would linger down to the cellars? That could be a logical reason for the move if so.

 

Chicken wing blood dripping through the floors.