Pendelton is absorbed in the historical boundary no?

http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/buildings/historic-conservation/historic-conservation-board/dec-21-2015-packet/

 

The large white warehouse building at 229-235 W. 12th Street is on the HCB agenda for the meeting today. It looks like now Grandin Company is proposing renovating the property into 110,000 square feet of office space as opposed to residential. I wonder if they have a user in mind, that is a large chunk of space.

 

Also - they were not awarded State of Ohio Historic Tax Credits for the project as of this round. I wonder where the project stands now? Or if it is on hold until the next round of tax credits awarded in Summer 2016.

 

(There is also some interesting info in the packet on the 3CDC office space construction at 15th and Vine.)

Great looking plans on both fronts.  Though I think some people may not be too high on the infill on 15th and Vine.  In my mind, that is a big key for the area around 15th and Vine, the Kroger area, etc.  I still think for the Walnut Street area of 15th street, we will still need a parking structure somewhere in there to get the rest of those buildings on 15th and Moore(?) redeveloped.  Moving on up on Vine though is a great thing.

I quite like that 15th and Vine plan. It does a good job of not feeling like one giant building devouring the existing buildings. It will block my view of Prospect Hill but I'll deal with it haha.

One interesting thing about the Strietmann Building (229-235 W Twelfth St): Due to lack of on-site parking, they're seeking a parking variance (which existing zoning would require to 218 spots). To justify the variance, they point out quite correctly that the nearby <a href="http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/parking/garages-lots/town-center-garage/">Town Center Garage (next to WCET)</a> is "very affordable and highly underutilized during daytime hours when a majority of the demand for this project will be generated. It should be noted the streetcar is also within one block of the proposed site."

That's a good sign that Grandin gets it. Considering they're going to be moving a lot of their development efforts into the basin it's important that they're not going to just carry over their suburban model to OTR/Downtown. What works in Hyde Park won't necessarily work in OTR and this makes it clear they know that which is great to hear.

One interesting thing about the Strietmann Building (229-235 W Twelfth St): Due to lack of on-site parking, they're seeking a parking variance (which existing zoning would require to 218 spots). To justify the variance, they point out quite correctly that the nearby <a href="http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/parking/garages-lots/town-center-garage/">Town Center Garage (next to WCET)</a> is "very affordable and highly underutilized during daytime hours when a majority of the demand for this project will be generated. It should be noted the streetcar is also within one block of the proposed site."

 

In the long term, I see the Town Center Garage being demolished and replaced with something of higher value. Of course it could still include a parking garage element but hopefully some residential as well, which will help jump start development in the West End. Maybe if WCET & WVXU got in on the plan, they could also incorporate new facilities for them and maybe even street-facing radio and television studios.

One interesting thing about the Strietmann Building (229-235 W Twelfth St): Due to lack of on-site parking, they're seeking a parking variance (which existing zoning would require to 218 spots). To justify the variance, they point out quite correctly that the nearby <a href="http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/parking/garages-lots/town-center-garage/">Town Center Garage (next to WCET)</a> is "very affordable and highly underutilized during daytime hours when a majority of the demand for this project will be generated. It should be noted the streetcar is also within one block of the proposed site."

 

 

I am not going to look it up again because it took me about 20 minutes to find the spot in the first place, but 3CDC mentioned the same exact thing for their 15th and Vine Development.  Within 600 feet of Mercer Parking, Washington Park, and also that the Streetcar will be operational by the time the building opens, so they are seeking a variance for 0 spots instead of 120 or something like that.

I know a lot of us are not overly fond of gigantic parking garages included in projects like Mercer Commons and what was to be included originally at 15th/Race, but they really do make for a better argument for variances such as these while structuring parking in the least intrusive manner from a pedestrian-on-the-sidewalk point of view. I'd like some more creativity than was displayed in Mercer Commons, but I think two or so more large garages in strategic areas to support zero-parking development would be good for OTR.

^ Yes and, I can say from the perspective of someone developing a small apartment building with just 6 units, it was a little surprising to learn that by statute I had to supply 9 parking spaces, for a lot/building that has zero space available for any parking.

 

As has been discussed above, if you are within 600' of available commercial parking that can be used by tenants, then there is a 50% reduction in the required parking. Also, if you are in the RM zone and within a certain distance (300'?) of the streetcar line (or is it a streetcar stop?), the same 50% reduction applies. And finally, if the number of required spaces after the reduction is applied is 5 or less, then you don't have to supply any parking.

 

The upshot is that to avoid having to apply for and win a parking variance, it is very helpful to have existing parking facilities within 600 feet or be sufficiently near the streetcar line. All of the smaller mixed use developments would benefit from that.

We all want extreme walkability, but the reality of the Cincinnati region is one with a severe lack of centralization of employment options. I know just as many people who live in OTR who reverse commute to other neighborhoods (myself included) as those who walk to work. I wish it wasn't this way, but it is and people are going to continue to own cars, even if they greatly reduce the amount they drive. Visitors are also still going to come in droves and aren't all going to be taking the bus in unless America's stigma towards buses suddenly goes away. Which is highly unlikely. Structuring parking intelligently is the best option for supporting new residents, office workers, and visitors without winding up with tiny parking lots taking up vacant lots all over and reducing the ability for the redevelopment of a continuous streetwall with new infill.

The city should require all new parking garages in the CBD and OTR to be built in such a way that they can be converted to other uses later, just like the Dunnhumby garage. It doesn't add any additional expense to the construction, just requires some additional planning.

Not necessarily true. In fact quite the opposite. In order to do that it has to be built with level decks. That's not common. Usually the parking deck spirals upward so you don't have separate ramps between levels as the levels are the ramp. This saves space and maximizes spaces per acre. If you want it to be convertible in the future you have to do what Dunnhumby did and have a section devoted to moving vehicles between levels. In smaller situations this isn't always possible and would make the garage less usable in the end increasing the costs per space.

Is the 15th and Vine project still scheduled to be office space?

 

Any potential for ground floor retail and office space above?

Is the 15th and Vine project still scheduled to be office space?

 

Any potential for ground floor retail and office space above?

 

The plans state that the first floor will be roughly 10,000 square feet of retail/restaurant, split across a few separate tenant spaces. The upper floors will be office.

We all want extreme walkability, but the reality of the Cincinnati region is one with a severe lack of centralization of employment options. I know just as many people who live in OTR who reverse commute to other neighborhoods (myself included) as those who walk to work. I wish it wasn't this way, but it is and people are going to continue to own cars, even if they greatly reduce the amount they drive. Visitors are also still going to come in droves and aren't all going to be taking the bus in unless America's stigma towards buses suddenly goes away. Which is highly unlikely. Structuring parking intelligently is the best option for supporting new residents, office workers, and visitors without winding up with tiny parking lots taking up vacant lots all over and reducing the ability for the redevelopment of a continuous streetwall with new infill.

 

In my ideal world, these visitors (both noobs and repeat) are well informed/trained to park in the CBD and Banks and use the streetcar to enjoy both nodes and everything in between.

We all want extreme walkability, but the reality of the Cincinnati region is one with a severe lack of centralization of employment options. I know just as many people who live in OTR who reverse commute to other neighborhoods (myself included) as those who walk to work. I wish it wasn't this way, but it is and people are going to continue to own cars, even if they greatly reduce the amount they drive. Visitors are also still going to come in droves and aren't all going to be taking the bus in unless America's stigma towards buses suddenly goes away. Which is highly unlikely. Structuring parking intelligently is the best option for supporting new residents, office workers, and visitors without winding up with tiny parking lots taking up vacant lots all over and reducing the ability for the redevelopment of a continuous streetwall with new infill.

 

I wonder with the redo of Liberty Street, if we get 20' of development space, if there will be room for a parking structure in the open space/cell phone store area bounded by Race, Elm, and Liberty. I would prefer something underground (perhaps even extending underneath Pleasant Street) and I don't think I would support a parking garage structure above ground there in between the prime OTR streetcar stops.

 

I agree with your sentiments about the Greater Cincinnati economy jmicha[/member] . In all honesty I don't expect the streetcar to reduce parking demand by 50%, at least not right away, but the thing is I consider the parking minimums for new development to be an artificial distortion on the market anyway, one particularly toxic to a historic area like OTR that grew up before the automobile. So I like that the reduced parking requirements along the streetcar route lets us test what the market will bear re:reduced parking.

Nice write up by Polly Campbell on the history of the dining scene along Vine St, and how much has changed over the last few years: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/entertainment/2015/12/21/how-miracle-vine-st-evolved/77426594/

 

Nice write up by Polly Campbell on the history of the dining scene along Vine St, and how much has changed over the last few years: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/entertainment/2015/12/21/how-miracle-vine-st-evolved/77426594/

 

Wow.  Pretty rare to see her actually write about local places.  She is typically only adventurous enough to review chain restaurants in Florence and Mason.

Wow.  Pretty rare to see her actually write about local places.  She is typically only adventurous enough to review chain restaurants in Florence and Mason.

 

Not even close to true: http://www.cincinnati.com/staff/9067/polly-campbell/

As if patronizing any of the Lavomatic-and-after restaurants was in any way "adventurous", something on par with oh-say visiting The Warehouse circa 1995 when that strip of Vine was lined by literally hundreds of drug dealers and prostitutes around the clock, year after year. 

^So you want her to time travel?

Well yeah! Obviously the mid 1990s were the epitome of music, food, beer, bars, culture, clothing, hair styles, and by far the most edgy and adventurous since that's when certain member(s) here grew up. Therefore nothing today is worthy.

As if patronizing any of the Lavomatic-and-after restaurants was in any way "adventurous", something on par with oh-say visiting The Warehouse circa 1995 when that strip of Vine was lined by literally hundreds of drug dealers and prostitutes around the clock, year after year. 

 

Btw, Polly gives way too much credit to Lavomatic, literally what did it was Senate, Dan Wright basically took the sort of restaurant Chicago's had for years and transplanted it to OTR.  He was shooting fish in a barrel, but by local standards it was innovative and at the right place in the right time with a top notch execution.

And Senate only existed thanks to Kathleen Norris, who was working at the time for 3CDC but now has a firm called Urban Fast Forward, who encouraged Dan Wright to start Senate.

3CDC acquired 1719 Vine St. They also own 1724 Vine across the street. Slowly but surely...

Urban Sites acquired the commercial space at 1324 Main St.

 

The commercial space at 1336 Main St that used to be the Porter's Pinball is also currently vacant. Urban Sites now owns a large number of the commercial spaces on Main St that are either under construction or currently occupied.

It seems like Urban Sites wants to "master plan" the retail along Main the same way that 3CDC did for Vine.

Men's fashion retailer "Righno" is opening up there 3rd location in OTR on Vine (in the old We Are Vikings location). Scheduled to open this march.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/_2Z-qAD1vU/

 

 

With Righno, and Elm & Iron 2nd store taking up retail in the old Brandery location/We Are Vikings location means that we are finally beginning to see the early stages of development creep up to 15th and Vine and beyond.

 

I'm assuming with 3cdc already submitting there's plans for 15th and Vine construction to the historic board we might see construction begin Summer/Early Fall if everything gets approved/no delays. And hopefully that will coincide with the rehab of the old Green HW building as well (and of the course the building adjacent to it)

 

Can't wait to see that building rehabbed. Easily the most beautiful building in Over the Rhine. Some fresh green paint, and some touch ups will do wonder. And I can't wait for the historic beer garden in the back of the building to be rehabbed as well. So much of it is still intact even almost 200 years later.

That side of Vine is exciting. It's really, really intact. Almost like what we have on Main Street on the south side of OTR.

Yes I agree completely. It will be big for Cincinnati when that whole stretch of Vine goes from vacant to vibrant like the lower half did.  I was looking at a map and it looks about the same length, at least the south side of Vine to the North side of Vine before it starts climbing the hill.  So it may be another 10 years before it is all rehabbed, but it will get there eventually. 

I wonder how well these retailers are doing on the Vine Street scene.  Thinking of Elm and Iron, Homage, etc.

 

I wonder if they pull in $1 million revenues or more.

 

I agree that the green building is a beautiful gem, will be great once they get those buildings back on the market.

I wonder how well these retailers are doing on the Vine Street scene.  Thinking of Elm and Iron, Homage, etc.

 

I wonder if they pull in $1 million revenues or more.

 

I agree that the green building is a beautiful gem, will be great once they get those buildings back on the market.

 

From what I understand extremely well.

 

Elm and Iron OTR location has become it's flagship location, and has generated more revenue in that location that in any of it's columbus locations.

 

Hence the reason why they are expanding in OTR and making a 2nd store to include even more Elm and Iron items.

 

It's honestly not surprising. OTR has become a tourist destination not just for Cincinnatians/NKY people anymore. I know people who come all the way down from Columbus/Cleveland/Indianapolis/etc to just visit OTR. The word is getting out there about it's architecture, and world class dining options and it's spreading fast.

 

I have a cousin who lives in Florida. He had his first visit to Cincinnati in over 10 years. I showed him around OTR and he was floored. He called it a, "mini italy" of the midwest. He was amazed by the architecture, and said he's never seen anything like it besides in movies, and was astounded by how beautiful Cincinnati and OTR was.

 

He's already planning his next visit this Summer and wants to go back. The word is getting out there.

Council approves dividing OTR into 2 entertainment districts:

 

http://www.fox19.com/story/30770171/council-approves-dividing-otr-into-2-entertainment-districts

 

 

 

I didn't realize OTR had so few licenses and was already maxed out, so I guess this is good news. Do those entertainment districts necessarily line up with the open container entertainment districts or will this not affect that? If this splits into two districts and Cincinnati is only allowed to have two open container districts, then would that mean the Banks and only part of OTR or could you re-combine these for that purpose? (Which by the way I haven't heard anything about in a while, is that still happening)

Also 30 still seems like very few licenses for all of OTR with all the breweries, bars and restaurants combined.

This is not tied to the open container districts. Those are separate. This just opens up more liquor licenses.

 

Also, breweries use a different license, I believe. I don't think they will get one of those licenses since they are a manufacturer. I could be wrong and maybe they get multiple licenses.

Back to the open container district, has anyone heard of anything in regards to this?

 

I just had a thought and I am sure others have as well, but it seems at some point having an open container district around Findlay Mark could prove beneficial.  I know things are starting to kick up there a bit in regards to development, but once the streetcar is operational, it seems the area would benefit from having open container there.  People could grab a beer from a kiosk, similar to the Fountain Square area, walk around and shop, etc.  Then, if they wanted to get to drinking, they could take the streetcar to the many other bars and restaurants within short distance.

 

Man, I am really getting excited for the possibilities with the streetcar!! :clap:

I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of Ohio's liquor laws, but it sounds like such an antiquated system. In my opinion, any establishment that wants to sell alcohol, is law-abiding, and doesn't get a high volume of complaints from the neighborhood should be able to obtain a liquor license.

^^ I think it would be neat if you could take your beer from the Findlay Market beer garden to any other open part of the market like you suggested.  But otherwise I don't think an open container district (specifically thinking of the kind where you would get a "to go" drink in a special cup from a bar) is necessary for OTR. 

 

I think it could exacerbate some social tensions, such as a panhandler asking a suburbanite or tourist for the rest of his beer, the suburbanite or tourist responding really nastily, etc.  Plus it goes against some of the upscale branding of Vine Street etc.

 

In the end i don't think it would provide a big economic boost either way- not in the way narrowing Liberty Street or performing the upcoming renovations of Ziegler Park would. 

I'm worried about those types of situations as well. We saw some tension when Washington Park re-opened and sold beer and wine at events but were cracking down on people bringing in their own alcohol. The anti-gentrification crowd went nuts. (Of course, Washington Park has only expanded their drinking options with the opening of their new patio last year.)

 

Could you imagine if a special zone was established in OTR where people could walk around with drinks they purchased at bars, but buying an alcoholic beverage from a convenience store and drinking it on the street would (presumably) not be allowed within that same zone? I bet the same crowd would make a ton of noise about, "Why are yuppies allowed to walk around with their $7 craft beers but long-time neighborhood residents aren't allowed to drink their 40s?"

It would be illegal to drink something you didn't purchase from a licensed bar/restaurant within the district if we adopt an ORA.

 

We should just follow Indianapolis' example and abolish open container laws except in most parks or around schools/etc. Let the people drink! But this is a state issue since it's illegal at the state level. Cincinnati can't legalize it on their own.

 

I would be supportive of an ORA (Outdoor Refreshment Area) around Findlay Market so you can stroll around the area with a beer or glass of wine. Restrict the hours to make it only during Market hours or around dinner. Not late nights.

 

For any general discussion on ORAs there is a separate thread for it. I think talking about OTR specifically in regards to ORAs is ok here. Middletown will be the first place to open an ORA. If you want to discuss that, head over to the ORA specific topic.

I didn't realize OTR had so few licenses and was already maxed out, so I guess this is good news. Do those entertainment districts necessarily line up with the open container entertainment districts or will this not affect that? If this splits into two districts and Cincinnati is only allowed to have two open container districts, then would that mean the Banks and only part of OTR or could you re-combine these for that purpose? (Which by the way I haven't heard anything about in a while, is that still happening)

Also 30 still seems like very few licenses for all of OTR with all the breweries, bars and restaurants combined.

 

I agree. I feel that all of Vine Street in OTR ALONE can easily support up 30 bars/restaurants if not more. These places are so tiny, that I feel like there will be a constant need for more bar/dining options.

 

As population in OTR/Cincinnati grow (which I think will only continue to grow at a more rapid pace in the next 5-10 years), and more residents begin to move back to OTR there will be a constant need for more options. I truly think they will need to look at how to expand that, because OTR as a whole can EASILY support more.

 

Especially if were bunching in the Northern most part of OTR with the Mohawk District, and the Eastern Edges of OTR with Pendelton. That area as well can support quite a few bars and resturaunts as well. Especially if those empty Sycamore Street lots become a future Mercer Commons type of development with retail below.

 

 

Wow.  Pretty rare to see her actually write about local places.  She is typically only adventurous enough to review chain restaurants in Florence and Mason.

 

Not even close to true: http://www.cincinnati.com/staff/9067/polly-campbell/

 

100% true.  Not sure what support the link was the supposed to provide.  Over half of those posts are regarding chains.

That's true if you count Senate, Taste of Belgium, A Tavola, and Bru as chains. But I would argue that those don't really count because they're local restaurants (the first three started in OTR) that evolved into chains.

 

 

From what I understand extremely well.

 

Elm and Iron OTR location has become it's flagship location, and has generated more revenue in that location that in any of it's columbus locations.

 

Hence the reason why they are expanding in OTR and making a 2nd store to include even more Elm and Iron items.

 

It's honestly not surprising. OTR has become a tourist destination not just for Cincinnatians/NKY people anymore. I know people who come all the way down from Columbus/Cleveland/Indianapolis/etc to just visit OTR. The word is getting out there about it's architecture, and world class dining options and it's spreading fast.

 

I have a cousin who lives in Florida. He had his first visit to Cincinnati in over 10 years. I showed him around OTR and he was floored. He called it a, "mini italy" of the midwest. He was amazed by the architecture, and said he's never seen anything like it besides in movies, and was astounded by how beautiful Cincinnati and OTR was.

 

He's already planning his next visit this Summer and wants to go back. The word is getting out there.

 

Weren't you the one a month ago who was saying you wished people wouldn't visit OTR for 10 years because it was still not developed enough?  Yeah, you were, because I and others called you out on it. Now you're taking people on tours of OTR?  See, even you think what you said a month ago was pretty ridiculous.

I mean yeah..but no. I don't know. I love to show off OTR, because to me it's easily the coolest thing about Cincinnati (in my opinion of course). Especially if someone is visiting family wise.

 

I still hold true to the idea that OTR has the potential to be a world class tourist destination. I just don't want people to see the blight. There's still sooo much of it in OTR, especially in the "revitalized" southern part of OTR.

 

Main Street still has alot of vacant retail spots. Walnut Street still has alot of blighted buildings in disrepair (columbia, the grammers bar building, all the intact row of buildings on that side). The "revitalized" southern half of vine street still has a whole 2-3 blocks of blight, and buildings hanging on hinges. It still feels sketchy walking around parts of republic street (especially where the crack bar is). Race street, has 2-3 blocks of a huge vacant lot, and disrepaired buildings. Elm Street is barely revitalized and contains alot of empty lots and blight.

 

Music Hall needs a rehab. Memorial Hall needs a rehab. Ziegler park needs to be revamped.

 

I'm just being straight up. So much great stuff has happened in OTR, revitalization wise and I applaud 3cdc for what they have been able to accomplish. But if were being honest, were probably not even at 15% towards complete revitalization. There's still so many vacant lots, blighted buildings, and crime to deal with. This is for the long haul, and there's decades of revitalization left to go.

 

So if a out of town tourist was to tell me that they were going to visit OTR, I would say awesome! But I'd also add a disclaimer that it's a work in progress and I hope they will come back to see all of the new additions in the coming months/years.

 

Utility burial looks to be happening on Walnut between 12th and 13th.  Anyone know if this is getting new sidewalks and lights, as well?  Right now, it is completely unlit since the tops of the power poles have been cutoff the cobra heads are no longer there. 

Yeah it was kind of weird with that block being so dark, now I understand why it was...

So does that mean we can finally plant trees and not have to constantly cut them down on Walnut?

Grabbed a few panoramas of blocks in OTR that could use some investment: