It is remarkable that 5 single family homes replacing a gravel parking lot in this part of OTR is a bad plan. I know it is about top down planning, but isn't it really nice to have a variety of housing choices in this newly cool area.

I'm not going to lie, the negativity on this board gets to me sometimes. I know many of you have high expectations and have high standards (which you have every right to), but the negativity around here from some of you just absolutely drain me.

 

If it's not density then it's the design, if it's not the design then it's something else. I feel like there's rarely anything positive coming from these boards and alot of negative feedback. Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and opinions, but I feel at the very least we should be grateful that an empty lot is being redeveloped, and that new families will once again be a part of the urban cores fabric.

 

OTR in itself is in the infancy stages of redevelopment. There are still so many vacant buildings, there are still so many empty lots. I'm sure over time we will see better infill, and higher density projects. Lets not forget guys that OTR just 5 years ago was a waste land (with only some newly redeveloped buildings on Vine to show for it), and look how much it has blossomed today.

 

Yes, the density issue sucks. But at the very least lets raise a toast that this means that this block of republic might be salvaged due to reinvestment before any of these historic buildings come crumbling down, and that new families will be occupying a space that was once just an empty patch of dirt.

Why would an unbroken string high density residential be a good thing? Seems like that was what was there 100 years ago that didn't work.

I think people need to realize times change and so do places. OtR will never be this cramped high density area like it was in the early 20th century. If anything its the Mt auburn of yesterday were the wealthy had individual homes to retreat from the urban core (to a certain extent).

 

The cbd should be high density, no excuses there.

Why would an unbroken string high density residential be a good thing? Seems like that was what was there 100 years ago that didn't work.

 

Cities are actually fun and exciting places if you make them dense.  Besides there are plenty of places in this country which are still that way even 100 years after things were built ;).

 

Its wonderfully refreshing to have a board where people have high standards for Cincinnati because IMO you guys have a serious cultural problem as a whole of low standards and low expectations and IMO its part of the reason why you squander so much potential beauty/tourism/honoring of history that can and should happen in  your city.

 

IMO the priority of Cincinnati when I lived there seemed to be more about stupid petty turf wars because someone goes to a different high school than you do than actually raising the bar for the place.

Yeah because this city was a dump just 5 years ago. There was pretty much nothing to do and otr was a complete wasteland for the most part.

 

Revitalizing OTR and the banks has done wonders for the perception of this city. Seeing the buildings in otr be restored to their former beauty allowed people to see how special we have it here.

Jane Jacobs warned about the problem of what she called "gray areas" in cities.  These are the neighborhoods that are too dense to be suburban but not dense enough for true walkability or urbanism either.  Classic examples are the monolithic row house neighborhoods of Baltimore and Philadelphia.  They're obviously unappealing to someone looking for space and privacy, but at the same time they're not dense enough to support retail or restaurants within reasonable walking distance (save perhaps for the occasional corner store or beauty salon).  Since they were built mostly as worker housing with transit connections to downtown or nearby factories, there's no office or other business activity within easy reach either.  So in those neighborhoods you still have to drive everywhere, yet you also have to put up with parking issues, nasty wide streets, noisy neighbors, and lack of space to either grow your house or for kids to play or whatever.

 

Cincinnati doesn't really have areas quite so extreme, since outside of OTR most of our row houses are detached and have at least token setbacks from the street.  Plus there aren't really large swaths of the city that are block after block after block of row houses all built at the same time, it's much more granular here.  That said, many streetcar suburbs do exhibit similar characteristics, they're just not as dense as the Baltimore or Philadelphia examples, but they're equally unappealing to those looking for privacy and space or walkability.  Much of Evanston, Norwood, and even Oakley have these characteristics, as does the East End, Price Hill, and the east and west sides of Newport.  That doesn't mean they're not nice neighborhoods necessarily, but they don't have the critical mass to support much business by themselves, nor are they suburban either. 

 

This is the fear when low-density development is built in OTR, it makes the neighborhood businesses not neighborhood businesses but regional businesses.  That means they can't rely on foot traffic alone so they need more customers to come in from elsewhere.  Because of our limited transit system, that means they have to drive, and park, and that makes the neighborhood that much worse for everyone else.  It also causes resistance to further development down the road because "OMG they're taking away our parking!" or else having to build really expensive garages which don't solve the traffic problems and raise the price for homes and stores, so then you get the "where's our affordable housing?" issues. 

Yeah but what OTR has the benfit of is being sandwhiched between the old West end/Pendleton/Mt.Auburn/CBD.

 

If we add density to any of these surrounding areas then I don't see why this wouldn't flow back into otr. Especially since it's no more than a 3-5 minute walk from these areas.

 

That's not even including nearby districts like Mohawk or Brighton.

Why would an unbroken string high density residential be a good thing? Seems like that was what was there 100 years ago that didn't work.

 

We will never, ever, ever get back to the high density that we had in neighborhoods like OTR and the West End when they were originally built, because living standards have changed so much. Back in those days you had an entire family living in a small apartment that is now probably occupied by 1 single person, or maybe 2.

 

Why would an unbroken string high density residential be a good thing? Seems like that was what was there 100 years ago that didn't work.

 

We will never, ever, ever get back to the high density that we had in neighborhoods like OTR and the West End when they were originally built, because living standards have changed so much. Back in those days you had an entire family living in a small apartment that is now probably occupied by 1 single person, or maybe 2.

 

 

All the more reason buildings should be bigger with more units. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that as more wealthier residents move in to OTR, there will be more and more NIMBYs and it will be hard to get anything new built. Many of the new people moving in will think that the neighborhood should be frozen in amber and never evolve... as if it's "their" neighborhood and everyone new moving in is an inconvenience. Which is why we need to push for more higher density developments now, especially on Race and Elm along the streetcar route. I mean... that's the reason why we built the streetcar! To attract new development! And we're wasting that real estate by building a bunch of single-family townhomes. For OTR to succeed, we need 100 people living on each block, shopping at local businesses, walking down the street and adding activity to the neighborhood. Not 15 people who are fortunate enough to afford a luxury townhome.

I honestly think it will be the opposite. Most newer residents I know are more pro-development than those that have been here 10, 20 or 30+ years. I mean you already have the most NIMBY community council.

The 5 lots are 6000 sq. ft.

 

I am not sure what multifamily could be done at 1512 -1520 Republic that would be economical.

 

12 unit multifamily?

Just a reminder the OTRCC monthly meeting is tonight at 6PM at the OTR Rec center, they will be discussing the 15th and Race project AND the Liberty Street road diet, if you have an opinion on either of those you need to attend the meeting so your voice can be part of the official community direction.

I did a very quick skim of the Cagis property line map and it appears that there are about 200 empty lots remaining in Over-the-Rhine where a single-family house conceivably could be built instead of a small multi-family. So realistically we'll probably see 100-150 single-family homes built in the area over the next 10-20 years. 

 

. 

It appears Rhinegeist Properties purchased the warehouse space along W McMicken just east of Elm. ( https://goo.gl/maps/pkGpwv69WDC2 ). I wonder what they have planned...more storage/brewing space?

I wouldn't be surprised if they tear it down and use it as a parking lot for their fleet of vehicles. One of the downsides of self distribution is you need a place to store all of your vans and semi trucks. Who knows, though.

I did not think of that, good point. If i recall, that property goes pretty far up the hillside. Would be great if it was put to better use.

It appears Rhinegeist Properties purchased the warehouse space along W McMicken just east of Elm. ( https://goo.gl/maps/pkGpwv69WDC2 ). I wonder what they have planned...more storage/brewing space?

 

lagering tunnels??

I wouldn't be surprised if they tear it down and use it as a parking lot for their fleet of vehicles. One of the downsides of self distribution is you need a place to store all of your vans and semi trucks. Who knows, though.

Ugh. I see your point, but I really hope that's not the case.

I wouldn't be surprised if they tear it down and use it as a parking lot for their fleet of vehicles. One of the downsides of self distribution is you need a place to store all of your vans and semi trucks. Who knows, though.

 

Highly possible but I hope not. If they just need a place to park trucks, they could buy some lots in the west end just like lots of other businesses do. (Which, by the way, is something that needs to change if we ever want the West End to redevelop...)

Queesgate is designed to support logistics and distribution businesses. That's where Rhinegeist should store trucks if necessary.

Well, if the structure is sound enough they could add some height to it and park the trucks in there.  That would be OK, as this end of Northern OTR is pretty much industrial.  It will put a property back on the tax rolls which probably isn't paying much now and expand the business and create more jobs.

 

Lastly, if I were Rhinegeist and I needed a place to store trucks and other distribution materials I would try to buy a facility close to the loading location like this.  Think how many runs they make with those big trucks and it could save a lot of money in gasoline by picking it up close by like this.

I wouldn't be surprised if they tear it down and use it as a parking lot for their fleet of vehicles. One of the downsides of self distribution is you need a place to store all of your vans and semi trucks. Who knows, though.

 

That Rhinegeist site was the subject of an international architecture competition back in 2012. Really interesting proposals if you go to ArchDaily and search "Live Make Cincinnati" [i can't post external links yet out of my newbiness]

I wouldn't be surprised if they tear it down and use it as a parking lot for their fleet of vehicles. One of the downsides of self distribution is you need a place to store all of your vans and semi trucks. Who knows, though.

 

That Rhinegeist site was the subject of an international architecture competition back in 2012. Really interesting proposals if you go to ArchDaily and search "Live Make Cincinnati" [i can't post external links yet out of my newbiness]

 

Here is the link: http://www.archdaily.com/337131/cincinnati-livemake-competition-results

 

While we're talking about this corner of the neighborhood, I just realized from CAGIS photos that the Jackson Brewery (Metal Blast) had a new roof put on about a year ago. That's a good sign! Anybody know what the latest plan is for the Jackson Brewery?

 

 

While we're talking about this corner of the neighborhood, I just realized from CAGIS photos that the Jackson Brewery (Metal Blast) had a new roof put on about a year ago. That's a good sign! Anybody know what the latest plan is for the Jackson Brewery?

 

 

 

Owner is stabilizing, which obviously was greatly needed. Pretty extensive amount of work, including repointing/rebuilding about every inch of the exterior wall and smokestack plus reframing the majority of the roof. No current plans other then he continues to look for a tenant/buyer.

I feel like that's such a large space for a low cost, independent craft brewery. I'm wondering if that space could be divided out.

 

Also, I know this defeats the purpose of a brewery district, but a part of me wonders if this building has enough sf where it could perhaps be converted into a boutique hotel? It's such a lovely building, and I think if more breweries continue to pop up around OTR (especially in the norther liberties), it would make sense to have a small botique hotel or 2 for tourists who just want to walk around and take in the night life without having to stay all the way in the CBD.

 

A ground floor restaurant with a similar setup to Taft Ale House, with a microbrewery in the back, and with lodging above would be pretty cool.

If Fred had not purchased this building and saved it, the building would already be on the ground. Just saying.

Jackson Brewery is odd because a lot of the floors were reconfigured inside, especially on the left side.  There's concrete floors and even some ramps in there that you wouldn't expect when looking at it from the outside.  Also, the trouble with converting it to any sort of residential, hotel, or even office use is that other than on the first floor the windows are pretty darn small.  The round third floor windows are even worse, and those are at about waist height if I remember right, so the whole under-roof area is kind of a tough nut to crack.  You could redo the 2nd floor window openings to be something more like the middle where they're doubled or tripled up, but that's pushing the boundaries of preservation best practices, and you'd likely have to forego any sort of tax credits if you were to do that.  It's kind of a catch 22 sadly. 

About 15-20 years ago, the first time I walked up to the building, there was a mean junk yard dog living in it and keeping do-gooders with cameras out of it. 

It's easier when you have permission to be there for an architecture studio project :)  We measured and documented it in April 2001 (yes, during the riots), and A To Z Restaurant Equipment (or something along those lines) was just starting to work on moving his stuff out.  It was all salvaged cookers, tables, refrigerators, etc.  Pretty gross actually.  No dog fortunately, but I got some mean poison ivy on my wrist from vines growing up the front of the building (!) that hadn't leafed out yet so it wasn't obvious what they were. 

I went to the groundbreaking for the Felsenbrau (I think) condos in 2007 or 2008 that never materialized.  Roxanne Qualls and Chris Bortz were there.  At the time a lot of people speculated that development was going to take off on Renner St. (new construction just happened on Mulberry) but nothing has happened that I'm aware of. 

 

A lot of credit for the streetcar goes to the brewery district promoters who were some of the first to back the project.  Originally the line was to have traveled a few blocks further north and looped on McMicken St. rather than Henry St.  If the line is ever expanded north, all of the people who currently board at Rhinegeist will have to walk across Findlay Market instead. 

I went to the groundbreaking for the Felsenbrau (I think) condos in 2007 or 2008 that never materialized.  Roxanne Qualls and Chris Bortz were there.  At the time a lot of people speculated that development was going to take off on Renner St. (new construction just happened on Mulberry) but nothing has happened that I'm aware of. 

 

A lot of credit for the streetcar goes to the brewery district promoters who were some of the first to back the project.  Originally the line was to have traveled a few blocks further north and looped on McMicken St. rather than Henry St.  If the line is ever expanded north, all of the people who currently board at Rhinegeist will have to walk across Findlay Market instead. 

 

The route was shortened by 1 block to Henry Street not only to save costs but because Henry Street made perfect sense for a location for the maintenance facility. I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying about the Rhinegeist stop being eliminated. Especially now that we've already built it and seen that it's one of the most popular stops, why would it be removed if the system were to be expanded?

I still think that the best use of the Metal Blast building would be a boutique hotel.

I took one of the tours I'm pretty certain it was the Brewery Tour and it was quite interesting. I kind of wonder how this area is going to develop over the next 10 years. It may be hard to make it into a residential area because I think a lot of ppl are turned off by the smell of the brewing beer. That said, I could be complete wrong and they are already bringing in a lot of new residences with Model Group's renovations on both sides of Findlay Market. The area will need quite a lot of infill, though.

No, what I meant is that right now people both get off and board at Rhinegeist because it's effectively the end of the line.  If the line is expanded, people traveling toward downtown would then have to walk about 1,000 feet to Findlay Market & Race. 

It may be hard to make it into a residential area because I think a lot of ppl are turned off by the smell of the brewing beer.

 

I live nearby and smell it occasionally.  If it was all-day every day then it would be a problem. 

It appears Rhinegeist Properties purchased the warehouse space along W McMicken just east of Elm. ( https://goo.gl/maps/pkGpwv69WDC2 ). I wonder what they have planned...more storage/brewing space?

 

 

I think i saw a photo in the UC archive that showed that building with four more floors and it looked like a traditional early 1900's factory with big casement windows and roof skylights. Wonder how it got to one story?

 

It may be hard to make it into a residential area because I think a lot of ppl are turned off by the smell of the brewing beer.

 

I live nearby and smell it occasionally.  If it was all-day every day then it would be a problem.

 

Yeah, that's kind of what I was alluding to in the immediate area of Rhinegeist. Especially if Rhinegheist continues to grow, they are going to be brewing more and more around the clock, and they won't want to move.

No, what I meant is that right now people both get off and board at Rhinegeist because it's effectively the end of the line.  If the line is expanded, people traveling toward downtown would then have to walk about 1,000 feet to Findlay Market & Race. 

 

OK, I see what you're saying now.

 

 

It may be hard to make it into a residential area because I think a lot of ppl are turned off by the smell of the brewing beer.

 

Personally I really like that smell but my girlfriend is grossed out by it.

It appears Rhinegeist Properties purchased the warehouse space along W McMicken just east of Elm. ( https://goo.gl/maps/pkGpwv69WDC2 ). I wonder what they have planned...more storage/brewing space?

 

 

I think i saw a photo in the UC archive that showed that building with four more floors and it looked like a traditional early 1900's factory with big casement windows and roof skylights. Wonder how it got to one story?

 

 

Found it, and my memory failed me on the height. Still a cool old factory back in the day.

^ I think the bigger stinky smell issue is FL Emmert (I'm pretty sure I've narrowed it down to them). Every once in awhile they do something that douses the entire area in some really, really gross smells. I live up on Klotter and have to close my windows on occasion because of it, if the wind is just right.

 

It appears Rhinegeist Properties purchased the warehouse space along W McMicken just east of Elm. ( https://goo.gl/maps/pkGpwv69WDC2 ). I wonder what they have planned...more storage/brewing space?

 

 

I think i saw a photo in the UC archive that showed that building with four more floors and it looked like a traditional early 1900's factory with big casement windows and roof skylights. Wonder how it got to one story?

 

 

Here's a photo showing it as 2 stories - that is weird. I wonder what happened?

 

Haha i found it at almost the same time.

 

I could've sworn I read there was a fire that caused the 2nd floor to be demolished

Here is the old sky lit roof structure if you are interested (at the end of the street if ya zoom). I love the details in these old glass negative images. I've spent hours zooming in on these things. https://drc.libraries.uc.edu/handle/2374.UC/719612

Here is the old sky lit roof structure if you are interested (at the end of the street if ya zoom). I love the details in these old glass negative images. I've spent hours zooming in on these things. https://drc.libraries.uc.edu/handle/2374.UC/719612

 

The old negatives were so big because using a large plate to create a contact print saved a bunch of time as compared to enlarging.  It also retained an incredible amount of nuance that made up for the poor quality of early lenses and early film.  Part of the reason why early 35mm photographs are pretty poor in quality is because the lenses were so primitive and film was nothing like what existed right before digital ruined everything. 

Hypothetically if rheingeist wanted to demolish that building for their trucks, how would they be able to? If it's a registered building of the otr historic district it would seem strange that the HCB would alow a piece of otr fabric can be so easily demolished, especially if it's still structuraly sound.

Here's the current building for comparison:

 

I wrote this on my blog a while back, unaware of the Arch Daily link above: https://cincinnatiideas.com/mcmicken-ave-development/

 

This building falls just outside my desire for preservation. It's been significantly altered, and what's more, it's a squat, 1 story structure with a larger site that could be unlocked by removing it. Historic preservation can negatively impact neighborhood affordability by limiting building supply, provided replacement buildings are a higher use structure. To me the one story building at the SE corner of Liberty and Race fits this category as well.

 

This is in stark contrast to the Dennison which could be put to a highly productive use right now, instead of the pie in the sky replacement plan for a fantasy corporate headquarters, which could be built in the Joseph's parking lot anyway with no need for the Dennison's footprint. I am also in favor of keeping almost any higher order structure such as the house on the west side of Walnut that would be part of Grammar's 2 site and the Davis furniture building, which help set the granularity for the blocks they're located on. So I guess my views are pretty nuanced.