The comment was

I know Logan st is mostly residential and the streets are small, but I love the feel of bars and restaurants when they are on narrow streets. Something very European I guess.

 

I said that not everyone wants to live next door to a bar.

 

Anyone who disagrees with this observation is a passenger or a spectator.

Why would you live in an urban environment in the first place? I feel living besides bars/restaurants is what gives urban living it’s appeal

How is it controversial to say that not everyone likes living above bars or restaurants? I enjoy living in urban environments, but I also enjoy peace and quiet at home. I would not want to live right on Vine or someplace like that. I do love unexpected retail outlets, like the ones on Republic that jimicha listed. There is a difference between not wanting to live above a bar, and not wanting mixed use development. The latter is puzzling in a neighborhood like OTR, where there is no true business district, and most of the main streets function as mixed use corridors.

 

I love the feel of Logan St., at least on streetview. I like how the Boys and Girls club building helps to insulate the neighborhood to the east from Central Parkway. I hope whatever replaces the building is able to retain this feeling. I also don't think this area needs to have bars and restaurants, as it's close to Findlay Market and all the restaurants in and around it. Something low-key would be nice. I love stuff like this in Boston: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3588145,-71.0698467,3a,75y,225.83h,88.48t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svJV3NP1-2nE2Q22rphEacQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

How is it controversial to say that not everyone likes living above bars or restaurants?

 

Because the context in which it was posted implies a conspiracy of "liberals are trying to pack everyone together like sardines and take away choice."  As if there's so much urban residential over retail that it's choking out the fine, upstanding, salt of the earth, single-family homesteads.  It's no different than discussing a reduction or elimination of subsidies to automobile use, there's inevitably cries about how "not everyone wants to take the bus to work" and the "war on cars."

^ I didn't get that vibe from the post. If anything, it just sounded a little cranky/NIMBYish to me. A non-OTR resident said he wants to see a bar on the first floor of a development, while a resident of the neighborhood replies with "not everyone wants to live above a bar." Seems like a pretty normal exchange. Visitors and residents of urban neighborhoods often have different priorities.

If there was personal bias in my observation, it may have come from the years I lived in Mt. Adams. After the 10th or so vomit cleanup on my front walk and the 100th or so urination over my iron fence, I yearned for an art gallery or coffee shop.

 

But, my comment was simply an observation that sensible private developers hope for a bar or restaurant when they need an anchor tenant. Because they depress rents in the rest of the building. They are not a draw for residents in the same building. Nearby, maybe. Down the block, sure. Downstairs, not so much.

 

I was speaking from the developer's perspective.

So Maize, the new venuezelean Restaurant in the old ZBGB spot on Race recently opened this past Saturday.

 

Opening night was pretty packed. Decor was Pleasant, the food was on the other hand was simply OUTSTANDING. The menu items are also rather affordable as well.

 

The cocktails were a bit pricey, but they were all very unique and were cocktails you couldnt really find anywhere else in OTR.

 

Overall, I would argue it’s probably taken over The Sacred Beast as my top new restaurant in otr. Definitely a must try for the those who have yet to dig in.

Also, Simply Rolled, the new ice cream place on 12th Street, near Race has been having a soft opening all week with good crowds.  I tried it and liked it a lot.  A little lighter and healthier options than going to Graeters IMO

If there was personal bias in my observation, it may have come from the years I lived in Mt. Adams. After the 10th or so vomit cleanup on my front walk and the 100th or so urination over my iron fence, I yearned for an art gallery or coffee shop.

 

But, my comment was simply an observation that sensible private developers hope for a bar or restaurant when they need an anchor tenant. Because they depress rents in the rest of the building. They are not a draw for residents in the same building. Nearby, maybe. Down the block, sure. Downstairs, not so much.

 

I was speaking from the developer's perspective.

 

So Model Group, 3CDC, Urban Sites, and countless others aren't sensible? Seems like they're all doing fine building residences above and next to bars.

 

You aren't speaking from the developer's perspective. Because developers of properties in urban locations love the draw of notable bars and restaurants. Most bars are pretty relaxed these days so they aren't an issue. Having activity on your ground floor is seen as a good thing as it brings people to your building. It doesn't "depress rents" in urban areas like you think it does. You are speaking with your own personal bias and projecting that onto large scale developers.

If there was personal bias in my observation, it may have come from the years I lived in Mt. Adams. After the 10th or so vomit cleanup on my front walk and the 100th or so urination over my iron fence, I yearned for an art gallery or coffee shop.

 

But, my comment was simply an observation that sensible private developers hope for a bar or restaurant when they need an anchor tenant. Because they depress rents in the rest of the building. They are not a draw for residents in the same building. Nearby, maybe. Down the block, sure. Downstairs, not so much.

 

I was speaking from the developer's perspective.

 

So Model Group, 3CDC, Urban Sites, and countless others aren't sensible? Seems like they're all doing fine building residences above and next to bars.

 

You aren't speaking from the developer's perspective. Because developers of properties in urban locations love the draw of notable bars and restaurants. Most bars are pretty relaxed these days so they aren't an issue. Having activity on your ground floor is seen as a good thing as it brings people to your building. It doesn't "depress rents" in urban areas like you think it does. You are speaking with your own personal bias and projecting that onto large scale developers.

 

Yep. Having worked in the development field for years I can tell you that 1400 Sycamore's claims are just completely false. They couldn't be further from the truth. But if you take them in the context of his/her other posts you realize that they have an extreme anti-urban bias. Their preference is more parking, less bars and restaurants, less people, less density. Basically a suburb.

Do you actually own anything here in OTR? Past or present?

Not sure you're talking to me or DEPA, but I owned in OTR for two years before changing career direction and moving to NYC. I lived on Race Street across the street from Taft's Ale House. Despite that I had no issue selling my condo for 40% more than I bought it for two years prior. One of the pieces of feedback was people loved the location being directly across the street from Taft's.

And that's even a brewery, which puts off smells that some find off-putting or downright gross. Being near bars, restaurants, shopping etc. is literally WHY people are moving back to urban cores across the country. If you want to drive everywhere you go you live in the burbs, if you want to walk to things you live in the city. Period.

Not only that, but it's a stop on the Pedal Wagon.

 

The only time being above or next to a bar is a problem if there's horrible soundproofing and they have live music. Otherwise it's fairly simple to block the sound or get it to a point where it's white noise. The days of insanely loud, clubby bars (like those 1400 likely experienced the side effects of in Mt. Adams) are very squarely in the past.

 

One of the pieces of criticism I read (well, it was positioned as criticism but I took as a compliment) is that 20 and 30-somethings these days are a lot less wild and instead enjoy sitting in relaxed, quiet places and having a conversation more than just 10 or 20 years ago. Anecdotally I see this every weekend. I've also heard (but not sure there's really enough info out there to back up) that my generation is less interested in getting drunk and lives more in the buzzed realm which I also see anecdotally.

 

In general, a whole lot less problematic than in recent history.

The only time being above or next to a bar is a problem if there's horrible soundproofing and they have live music. Otherwise it's fairly simple to block the sound or get it to a point where it's white noise. The days of insanely loud, clubby bars (like those 1400 likely experienced the side effects of in Mt. Adams) are very squarely in the past.

 

Well, except for the "Treehouse Bar" where you can hear the thumping blocks away, but for the most part I agree with you.

I haven't been back since that opened, but from what I've heard it draws the rowdy crowd out of the woodwork. It seems like a place that definitely is a problem and would be completely legitimate to complain about if you lived next door. Thankfully those types of places are the exception, not the rule.

Young adults want places to party and have fun. Main St has always been the club epicenter of otr. It’s not a bad thing these rowdy people go to tree house but also spend money at other establishments for food/other clubs and bars...better than te alternative of this being at the banks imo.

Even a modest restaurant is a menace to tenants in the building. Right now, 250 E. 5th is going through an uproar of incredible intensity due to a simple grill in the first floor lobby. No one is happy about it. The elevators carry the smells up to every floor.  Two tenants thought the need to apologize at the start of a meeting and a closing. It did smell.

 

But, in a residential setting, besides the bodily fluids, the biggest problem is not noise, it is garbage. The best, cleanest restaurants bring smells no one would want and rodents bugs and whatnot.

 

When an anchor tenant is needed, a bar or restaurant is sought. No argument. But, when the space can be rented at $1.50 a foot or sold for north of $250 a foot, the restaurant is a bad choice. About half of them fail everywhere. First floor retail and office is far more desirable if it can be filled.

^ ok, now you’re being ridiculous. I gave you the benefit of the doubt!

^ ok, now you’re being ridiculous. I gave you the benefit of the doubt!

 

I appreciate that you did, but my post is 100%  correct. I am both a participant and an insider. And you?

 

 

 

Can we get this thread back on topic please?

This might fall into the "I have too much time on my hands" category of posts, but whatever.

 

A while back an LLC named Franz Fund began acquiring a large number of buildings and empty parcels in Mohawk, specifically along Mohawk Street and Renner Street. The LLC belongs to Bob Bonder, founder of Rhinegeist. I suppose it isn't unusual that this is taking place, but the sheer number of properties purchased (more than 20, if memory serves) struck me as unusual.

 

What deepened my interest was the Reddit rumor of a privately funded Rhinegeist gondola a while back. Notwithstanding its accuracy, the rumor seemed to signal a greater than normal interest in neighborhood development. Again, it makes sense that Rhinegeist would want a vibrant neighborhood surrounding its headquarters, especially when (I believe) they have large national ambitions. The question is how that interest materializes.

 

I bring all that up now because the purchases appear to be ongoing; the LLC purchased 312 Mohawk this month. Perhaps this is just private land banking. But I wonder if anyone might have an informed guess as to what, if anything, is going on there?

 

Yeah, looks like 28 lots total.  But most of those are a purchase of Renner St. lots, and nothing has happened on Renner for the 10+ years that we've heard that something is about to happen on Renner St.  I don't know what the problem is over there...if there is a geotechnical issue, or what. 

Well, to see the whole picture you should also check WMcMicken Properties.

This might fall into the "I have too much time on my hands" category of posts, but whatever.

 

A while back an LLC named Franz Fund began acquiring a large number of buildings and empty parcels in Mohawk, specifically along Mohawk Street and Renner Street. The LLC belongs to Bob Bonder, founder of Rhinegeist. I suppose it isn't unusual that this is taking place, but the sheer number of properties purchased (more than 20, if memory serves) struck me as unusual.

 

What deepened my interest was the Reddit rumor of a privately funded Rhinegeist gondola a while back.

 

 

Oh what fun, turning the Mohawk area back into a canal with gondolas!

3CDC’s next wave of OTR office development

 

With the entire office space at 15th & Vine now leased, Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. is gearing up for its next phase of office development in Over-the-Rhine.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/07/23/exclusive-3cdc-s-next-wave-of-otr-office.html

 

Anybody know if the Behlen project includes any of the buildings directly south of 1434 Vine? That article mentions 1432, but the 3CDC website doesn't show anything about 1432 Vine: https://www.3cdc.org/tenancy/behlen-2/

 

3CDC owns all of the properties from 1428-1434 Vine... so I'm sure they'll all eventually get renovated, just not sure if those three smaller buildings are going to be a part of this phase. Perhaps they'll wait on those smaller buildings until the Kroger site is ready for redevelopment. As has been pointed out many times, what makes OTR so charming are all of the *small* storefronts that add granularity, in a way that megablock developments can't. 1428, 1430, and 1432 are all 20' wide, so adding three more 20' wide storefronts will be great (whenever 3CDC gets to them).

I always assumed it was including those buildings based on the renderings but not certain if that's the case or not.

 

I am sure we can all find out soon when they start working on them. Excited for this corner to start moving forward and will be really excited when they start working on the Kroger site.

I have a feeling they included the future fixed up versions of those other buildings in the rendering just so this building looked better in marketing information.

 

Edit: They also only include the corner building in their plans. So it's likely the other buildings are a separate future project.

It might be better for marketing on paper, but I can't imagine how enthused any potential office tenenants will be when they are situated on the un-gentrified side of vine.

 

It might be a tough sell until those remaining clusters are redeveloped along with the Kroger site.

I really doubt it'll be a touch sell. This is directly across the street from the 15th and vine office which had no issue leasing its space.

By the time these office spaces open 3CDC will be able to tell potential lessors that the Kroger building is going to be closed and knocked down within a year of when you'd move in. 

Anyone else feel like 3CDC is building a bit too much office these days? I know they want office workers to create day time vibrancy, but I feel like OTR first and foremost needs to be a residential neighborhood. I understand that companies find the small footprint, historic building thing attractive, but it just seems odd to put so much emphasis on office when the CBD is right next door. The Meiners building looks like it could have been converted to some very cool housing units.

Anyone else feel like 3CDC is building a bit too much office these days? I know they want office workers to create day time vibrancy, but I feel like OTR first and foremost needs to be a residential neighborhood. I understand that companies find the small footprint, historic building thing attractive, but it just seems odd to put so much emphasis on office when the CBD is right next door. The Meiners building looks like it could have been converted to some very cool housing units.

 

Yeah I'm having similar concerns. At the same time though, OTR is a large neighborhood. It's not like short north in Columbus, where it's predominately 1 major street. That said, you create day time activity...but what about afternoon and night time activity as well? My dream vision for OTR would it for be a neighborhood that's hopping 24/7 and not just predominantly on Friday and Saturday's  when suburban folks are off from work.

 

North of Liberty of Vine St is largely intact and hasn't seen much of the wrecking ball to it's historic stock, and have some cool buildings that will hopefully be converted into residential in the near future.

 

Also, 3cdc will eventually rehab the Columbia Building on Walnut to residential, which should fit a nice number of residential units..and of course Fortus efforts on Elm and Liberty, and eventually Logan St should increase the density as well. So I'm not overly concerned.

 

 

I think it's a good thing. You can't find this scale of Class A office space downtown, so it diversifies the office market and adds a significant daytime population to the neighborhood.

 

Although I selfishly wanted a loft in the Meiners building I think it's a really good thing to have a diverse mix of uses and more importantly diversify the times of day those uses occur.

3CDC spent 10+ years doing nothing but residential units above ground floor retail.  Only recently has the neighborhood seen demand for offices so now they're building those, and what the do put on the market are in pretty small  square footage.  We'll see what they do with the Kroger land but I have a feeling they're going to do a mixture of garage, office and residential for that block.  There are other development companies and single building owners who are continuing to put out more residential units.  Shit pretty much the entirety of North of Liberty still needs to be developed.  So no I don't think 3CDC is doing too much office right now, I think they're just getting started. 

Actually, my thought is OTR needs more offices to become more of a tech center at least on the main spine of Vine Street.

 

The CBD has huge potential for residential development, like the lots around the Kroger site now, etc. You can't build these types of offices in the CBD because the stock isn't there and these companies don't want new towers and the financing wouldn't be in place anyways unless its a huge user and those spots seem "deemed for next development" with the Banks office pad and also the office pad at Macy's store on Fountain Square.

 

In OTR, I believe the best thing they could do is continue to build Office Space alone the Vine Street spine all the way up to the Hill. I would also include possible Hotel uses. The rest of the neighborhood all around has plenty of room for residential.

 

The increase in residents of the CBD in areas not deemed future office pads will increase the foot traffic in OTR. OTR is destined to become a tech office center with tons of restaurants, bars and high end housing. The CBD is where the young professionals can rent and eventually buy in OTR or possibly condos in the CBD, with more spilling out to the West End and other random apartment developments like Troy mentioned already.

 

*To Add: OTR during the day is pretty well quiet, while the CBD is hopping. It flips completely at night. They need to strike a balance and the good thing is that this can happen without subtracting anything. Also, lots of more residents and hotels in the CBD will greatly help the deadness at times during the weekends in the CBD.

I helped set up WiFi for Cincinnati Bell back in the day (early 2000s) for the Digital Rhine Main Street tech startup times of OTR.  Obviously it was a bust, but I could really see something like that take off nowadays.

The article was very clear.  600/sf per person for residential.  200/sf per person for office.  You get triple the density with office users.  I would also argue office users spend more money (lunch, happy hour, weekday dinner, etc) than residential.

Yeah, I get that you achieve more day time density with office workers than residents. I'm not against office being included in the redevelopment of OTR, but it seems like the great majority of new projects have been office related. The Strietman (sp?) building over by Music Hall is huge. Is it filling up? There is also the Empower Marketing HQ, 15th and Vine, the 3 buildings announced in this phase of redevelopment, etc. The neighborhood needs all types of uses to be vibrant at different parts of the day, but offices are empty at night and on weekends, and they require lots of off-street parking, and too much office space can create a sterile environment. With a large CBD with lots of vacancy and room for new development right next door, it just seems somewhat backwards to be pushing for office in OTR. We have a streetcar that was designed to link the CBD with OTR so they could work symbiotically.

 

I think OTR is becoming more and more of a tourist destination, and I would love to see some hotels pop up in the neighborhood. I'd love to see an Ace hotel locate in OTR, but I don't know where they could locate that would allow for enough rooms to be built. With all the restaurants and bars, arts institutions, and residential structures, the groundwork is already laid for OTR to become an iconic historic district ala the French Quarter. You don't see a ton of office space in these types of places, but you do see hotels.

^It's a shame that the art academy isn't bigger than it is, because there simply aren't enough people involved with that institution for it to make a bigger impact on mixing things up.  I'd be curious to hear how the improvement to the neighborhood has improved its recruiting efforts. 

 

I remember meeting a girl from Iowa who got a scholarship to the Cincinnati Art Academy in the 90s and really like the campus in Mt. Adams but ended up not going.  I can't imagine what it was like right the school moved down there around 2003 and it was still the wild west. 

^I don't think you lose much if you designate the spine of Vine Street more towards office use and not the rest of the neighborhood. I don't know what the stats are and I think it would be hard to tell but without office use OTR is pretty dead during the weekday during business hours and it hurts the area and what they are trying to achieve.

 

I don't think you can say to go to the CBD for a number of reasons:

1.) You don't have the neighborhood feel to really generate much interest in downtown alone

2.) You don't have the capital to build large office use or even smaller office use these companies need, OTR is perfect for it

3.) 15th and Vine and Empower have already filled up. Haven't heard yet on STreitman but in an article they advised that they were working on getting it filled and it would be filled fairly quickly

4.) You have tons of space for Residential and residential alone definitely does not add to the street level vibrancy as would more office use, which in my opinion Vine Street could connect as one spine from the Hill down to the river as a Vibrant office corridor and I think that is the goal of 3CDC. There is so much room on all the sides of Vine Street for Residential that I don't see it as an issue at all moving forward. Just go down streetview or in person and go off the side streets of Vine to see my point, from the river all the way to the hill.

 

This just illustrates the importance of mixed uses.  Downtown itself generally doesn't have much mix, it's only office for the most part, which supports very lackluster and generally only chain retail/restaurants that can survive on quick turnaround and fickle employees.  Restaurants in particular generally have to survive on the lunch crowd only, and bars have trouble since nobody's around after dark.  Neighborhoods that are primarily residential also have trouble because of the lack of daytime residents that don't support retail during normal hours.  Plus restaurants are saddled with a lackluster lunch while having to cater to the much longer-lingering dinner crowd.  Nightlife can be crushingly busy though because people are around late, but the bars and clubs have to get nearly all their revenue Friday and Saturday night since they can't get people there any other time of the day, so they have to stay small to minimize rent. 

 

So I'm in favor of more office space not just in OTR but other neighborhood business districts.  What's lacking is decently sized floor plates.  There's tons of office space in the sub-3,000sf range, but almost nothing bigger than that, even if it were on multiple floors.  This limits these offices to generally less than 20 employees.  It doesn't take much growth in your business to suddenly push you outside of the walkable neighborhoods or into downtown proper as your only choices.  Plus as far as parking goes, with an equal mix of office and residential they rotate out the parking between the two in the morning and evening and get full utilization of the garage.  One need only look at the A&D Parkhaus Garage behind Job and Family Services to see how poorly optimized it is.  It's full starting about 8:30am, but by 6:00pm or so it's completely empty.  They don't even offer overnight monthly permits, there's no hourly discounts in the evening, and the "night owl" discount rate requires you to be out by 4:00am.  It's completely unusable for residents for fear that courthouse patrons might not get a spot in the coveted 8:00-10:00am window. 

 

Streitman is charging class-A rents (or at least trying to) so it's not filling up as quick as it could, but I don't doubt they'll still get there. 

Rhinegeist purchased that somewhat large w mickmicken lot a few years ago...it was assumed it would be parking for the rhinegrist distribution trucks...clearly that never occurred. I’m not sure what they have planned but I wonder if the lot is large enough for some gondola system?

I’m probably reading too much into this...but subtle hint about the gondola from Rhinegeist?

 

 

Our 5th Anniversary party toboggan careens into the brewery on 6/23! FB Event: http://bit.ly/2vY3pZn

*5th Anniversary Adventure Destination #2: The Great North*

And now we travel North

As our journey sallies forth,

And we frolic in the snow

With our cheeks a rosy glow.

The squad is all delighted —

From the gondola alighted,

We quaff in the firnification,

On our 5 year celebration.

My "subtle hint" was only that there are a lot more transactions than the 28 counted above.

Curious why they are sitting on so many properties...maybe they are waiting till north of liberty begins revitalization to work on them?

Rhinegeist purchased that somewhat large w mickmicken lot a few years ago...it was assumed it would be parking for the rhinegrist distribution trucks...clearly that never occurred. I’m not sure what they have planned but I wonder if the lot is large enough for some gondola system?

 

They use a lot on McMicken for valet parking.

Rhinegeist purchased that somewhat large w mickmicken lot a few years ago...it was assumed it would be parking for the rhinegrist distribution trucks...clearly that never occurred. I’m not sure what they have planned but I wonder if the lot is large enough for some gondola system?

 

They use a lot on McMicken for valet parking.

 

There are distribution trucks parked everyday in that lot

I do wonder how much the opening of Rhinegeist's Queensgate Camp Washington distribution center, and eventually a tap room at that location, will affect the business at the OTR brewery. I can see suburbanites who hate dealing with OTR parking deciding to go there instead. Maybe some day they can run a shuttle between their locations, and encourage people to park at Queensgate Camp Washington where there is ample parking and take the shuttle to OTR. I would be surprised if this idea hasn't already crossed their minds.