Obviously the Davis Furniture and Salvation Army buildings are standing in the way of a huge development. 

 

I'm a little slow on the uptake.  Can you explain?

 

I'm guessing the point is that the entire half block between Clay/Main and Central Parkway/12th is the crappy architecture Salvation Army building, the gutted Davis Furniture building and a couple of surface lots.  It seems like a perfect section for redevelopment especially considering the streetcar line.  The problem is that the Salvation Army building is currently actively being used.  They would have to be OK relocating to make it happen.

 

Obviously the Davis Furniture and Salvation Army buildings are standing in the way of a huge development. 

 

I'm a little slow on the uptake.  Can you explain?

 

I'm guessing the point is that the entire half block between Clay/Main and Central Parkway/12th is the crappy architecture Salvation Army building, the gutted Davis Furniture building and a couple of surface lots.  It seems like a perfect section for redevelopment especially considering the streetcar line.  The problem is that the Salvation Army building is currently actively being used.  They would have to be OK relocating to make it happen.

 

I see.  And that's what I assumed but I wasn't sure if Jake knew something was brewing.

Subtract the Davis Furniture and Salvation Army buildings and you have a development site the same size as Gateway 1.  Approximately 325x190ft. 

Subtract the Davis Furniture and Salvation Army buildings and you have a development site the same size as Gateway 1.  Approximately 325x190ft. 

 

And since it's facing Central Parkway, I think you could do a taller building here.... something that is on the same scale as the Emery Building, the A&D Building (now used by Hamilton County), or the American Building. That would be a welcome change from the 3-4 story infill that you see throughout OTR.

And since it's facing Central Parkway, I think you could do a taller building here.... something that is on the same scale as the Emery Building, the A&D Building (now used by Hamilton County), or the American Building. That would be a welcome change from the 3-4 story infill that you see throughout OTR.

 

That would be a real potential game-changer for Main, which is still a little sleepy during the day.

Subtract the Davis Furniture and Salvation Army buildings and you have a development site the same size as Gateway 1.  Approximately 325x190ft. 

 

But would we have to say goodbye to our beloved Wilkymacky Alley?  Noes!

Subtract the Davis Furniture and Salvation Army buildings and you have a development site the same size as Gateway 1.  Approximately 325x190ft. 

 

But would we have to say goodbye to our beloved Wilkymacky Alley?  Noes!

 

Nah... it'd still be there between Clay and Walnut! ;-)

But Wilkymacky Alley still has wood bricks at Main...I don't want to say goodbye.  Plus, I would not want a tall building at 12th and Main.  Build as tall as you want from Central to Wilkymacky, then a 5 story building from Wilkymacky to 12th. 

The building at the northeast corner of 12th and Clay is clear of tenants and being renovated:

 

 

Here's the scoop: http://www.spncincinnati.com/?page_id=20

WCPO: 3CDC shows preliminary plans for next big Over-the-Rhine projects

 

3CDC is continuing to move north on Vine, almost reaching Liberty now. Looks pretty good, except that 3CDC is planning to "demolish the rear portions of two historic structures at the 15th and Race streets site" for another 330-space parking garage. You would think that after building the Mercer Garage and Washington Park Garage, there would be enough parking in this part of the neighborhood. I fear that are building so much parking in the neighborhood that they're actually inducing demand. They're making it so easy to drive to OTR that people will just drive, and not even consider any other transit options. Cincinnatians are never going to push for light rail or other better transit options if we keep building massive parking garages with every new urban development.

Realistically, the majority of people moving to OTR have cars, and will need places to park them.  I think the 3CDC strategy of creating large parking garages to not only serve visitors, but also residents, is a good one.  Without these garages, we could/probably would see more demolition of buildings to provide surface lots for housing developments.  It's great to try to encourage people to use transit, but the current options of the bus system and a small downtown streetcar loop isn't really enough to replace the need for a car. 

I don't think parking will ever force Cincinnatians to push for light rail.  Traffic and $4 gas on the other hand, might.  I haven't gone over the specifics of the new plans, but I think 3CDC recognizes that part of why OTR was endangered in the first place was because there wasn't enough parking in the neighborhood after the rise of the automobile.  I think they're correct in assuming that these parking garages are a necessary evil for the time being, if we want these new developments to succeed.  I don't love it and I'd MUCH rather see a rail system serve the area, but I think they need to recognize the current conditions in their developments.

Agreed. I don't see a diminishing demand for parking until some time after the second phase of the streetcar opens.

Part of this is also financing. Banks literally require parking for new/rehab developments for projects this size and many times its way above what even the zoning code allows!

 

Also I've heard that the Gateway Garage no longer offers monthly parking passes for residents. Can anyone confirm or deny?

Also I've heard that the Gateway Garage no longer offers monthly parking passes for residents. Can anyone confirm or deny?

 

I would believe that, because it's owned by Kroger now and they want it primarily for their employees.

Although the rendering is ugly (not the building in the rendering, but the actual quality of the rendering) this project seems like a great one. Those buildings (formerly Smitty's before the fire, correct?) look like they'll be great fixed up and the new building has a nice setback between the fourth and fifth floor which I think offers a lot of interesting possibilities with roof terraces, greater heights while maintaining a consistent streetwall, etc.

 

I think 3CDC is learning how to more properly introduce modern architecture to the neighborhood. I don't quite think these are the answer yet, but these offer some interesting design ideas. The southern mass has a facade that very much feels like a modern take on the taller of the two former Smitty's buildings while the corner portion offers a more stylized building which has less of a historic precedent since most corner buildings are long and narrow and this one will be what appears to be basically square.

 

I also see a lot of similarities between the Dunnhumby facade and the corner portion of the building. I wonder if that was intentional.

 

With all that said I hope to god that color is not what ends up being implemented. Unless of course it is something really unique like some sort of metal paneling or something that isn't clear in these initial renderings. But if it is brick like it appears to be, that color is pretty unfitting of the neighborhood and just doesn't do any building justice when used.

 

I'm excited to see more as more information is released about this and whatever will be happening on the Race Street side of the block.

I think the parking garage behind buildings at 15th and Race is a good idea. I hope there is a way they can scale down the number of spots in the parking garage so that residents can purchase a spot if they choose and they don't have to tear down the backs of the buildings.

 

The fact is, 3CDC needs to create parking spaces under the current code (and it's not unjustified). They need a parking spot for every 400 SQFT of office space, every 250 SQFT of retail, and 0.375 spaces for every unit over 20 (new parking overlay as well as the 50% reduction along the streetcar route).

 

If they build 50,000 SQFT of office space, that would require 50,000/400 = 125 parking spaces for the office use.

With 10,000 SQFT of retail space, that would require 10,000/250 = 40 parking spaces.

With 50 residential units, that would require (50-20)*0.375 = 12 parking spaces.

This means that this development would need 177 parking spaces under the current zoning code.

 

I don't think they need many more spaces than that, though the parking requirements can't be completely ignored because as more people move in, more people will be taking street parking and make it very difficult to find a spot. They don't need to create surface parking behind the 15th and Vine spaces though. That is completely unnecessary.

 

I would say to the historic conservation board: ask for a reduction in number of spaces in the parking garage to around 200. Don't tear down the rear portions of any buildings. Create more residential uses in the extra space the parking garage won't take up at 15th/Race. Allow a small number of spots to the public to satisfy the retail requirements. Winners all around as I can see it. Most of the remaining spaces south of Liberty aren't big enough for projects over 20 units of residential, so there won't be many more developments in the area that require parking by code. Let me know if any of my math is wrong.

Oh no not Tim Mara...the man responsible for causing $40~ million in overruns on Paul Brown Stadium by leading an effort to challenge the county sales tax.  He's a democrat but appears to be fishing around for something to meddle in. 

I also see a lot of similarities between the Dunnhumby facade and the corner portion of the building. I wonder if that was intentional.

 

I think its very much a contemporary trend in architecture.  See: http://cdn.cstatic.net/images/gridfs/51ee85fdf92ea16e4a010502/Tower%20of%20Pizza2COVER.jpg

 

Or:

http://blog.chicagoarchitecture.info/2013/04/17/new-1333-south-wabash-plan-is-bigger-smaller-wider-less-shiny/

 

Those buildings in the WCPO article rendering are scaled right but feel off in OTR.

Oh no not Tim Mara...the man responsible for causing $40~ million in overruns on Paul Brown Stadium by leading an effort to challenge the county sales tax.  He's a democrat but appears to be fishing around for something to meddle in. 

 

I don't know much about his history, but I agree with the point he's making here about historic buildings being more than a facade.

 

I think the majority of what 3CDC has done is great, but if left unchecked, they're going to keep repeating what they've done at Mercer Commons -- saving a historic facade around the perimeter of the block, and demolishing the back part of buildings to create space for a parking structure. It reminds me of something I recently saw in DC:

 

 

Except in that example, they filled the core of the block with a taller building... not a parking structure.

But... at Mercer Commons, the garage is behind entirely new construction, not a facade.  :wtf:

 

I'm not sure why people are confident  that the back portions of the two buildings in question near 15th and Race are especially notable or have the "charming details" that Mara's talking about. Some OTR buildings go back a really long ways and the back section is likely to be the crappiest section, frankly

 

 

But... at Mercer Commons, the garage is behind entirely new construction, not a facade.  :wtf:

 

On Mercer Street, they chopped off the back half of a historic building in order to make more space for the parking garage. And let's not forget that they did demolish a building on Vine too.

They do stuff like this a ton in Manhattan:

 

...and btw I'm still really suspicious of the Smitty's fire. 

 

...and btw I'm still really suspicious of the Smitty's fire. 

 

I think most people accept that the most likely explanation for that fire is some shady business, but they also figure it will never be proven. Whatcha gonna do?

...and btw I'm still really suspicious of the Smitty's fire. 

 

I think most people accept that the most likely explanation for that fire is some shady business, but they also figure it will never be proven. Whatcha gonna do?

 

Fire that destroyed Smitty's = no large groups of sketchy people hanging out in the front of it for hours.  Win.

I gotta tell you, having walked through a bunch of shells in OTR (before I finally bought one), the idea that there are all kinds of interesting features on the inside that should be preserved (stairwells, fireplaces, etc.) is just not right.  Most of these (at least the ones I looked at) are in super super rough shape. 

^Yeah, my friend and his uncle were looking at possibly buying a building around Findlay Market and converting it into rentals and I looked at all the photos they showed me. Barely anything was salvageable, if anything. Millwork doesn't last long when exposed to the elements like many of these were through holes in the roof, freeze/thaw, etc. It is sad since you could tell they used to be pretty grand, but getting it to look like that would require reproduction of nearly all elements which, at least in my opinion, is a little odd at that point. If you're purpose is purely to restore something then I can somewhat understand, but if everything is too far gone then why not just come to terms with that and make it as useful from a new standpoint?

^You're exactly right.  No doubt they were pretty impressive at some point, but after decades of neglect, you are lucky if there's anything left.  I've walked over many stairs and floors that were in imminent danger of falling in--and like you mention, roof problems and exposure to the elements are pervasive.  To the extent woodwork or other features exist, sure, it would be great to save them--but I bet many of these buildings don't have anything worth saving.

 

(The biggest eye opener is the sheer amount of trash inside some of these buildings.  It's crazy.) 

^I wasn't prepared for the amount of trash that had accumulated over the years. The building they were looking at had either 6 or 8 units in it, I can't remember, but while some only had a little bit in them there were some rooms on the first two floors that were just wall to wall garbage. It wasn't obvious if that was stuff that had accumulated after the building was abandoned and squatters occupied it or if the last tenants just left it like that before it was abandoned, I believe sometime in the 80s.

^In most cases it is probably a combination of the two. The last residents probably did leave a lot of things, but squatters definitely bring in a lot of garbage too.

^In most cases it is probably a combination of the two. The last residents probably did leave a lot of things, but squatters definitely bring in a lot of garbage too.

 

Semi-related: I walk through Pendleton on my way to work, and I frequently see people finish eating a bag of chips or some other snack, and just drop the wrapper on the ground. The sidewalks are covered with litter, and lots of people aren't cleaning up after their dogs. I don't see any of this type of behavior in Over-the-Rhine, especially on Vine or Main. So it seems like the broken window theory is pretty accurate.

I don't see any of this type of behavior in Over-the-Rhine, especially on Vine or Main. So it seems like the broken window theory is pretty accurate.

 

Yea... but walk down 12th from Vine toward Washington Park. Plenty of trash on the ground.

I gotta tell you, having walked through a bunch of shells in OTR (before I finally bought one), the idea that there are all kinds of interesting features on the inside that should be preserved (stairwells, fireplaces, etc.) is just not right.  Most of these (at least the ones I looked at) are in super super rough shape.

 

Yeah, that's what I was getting at above. Of course, when such features are around and can be saved, it's wonderful! But to me, the real value of a place like OTR isn't charming interior details; the real value comes from dense yet people-scaled and streetscape friendly architecture, hopefully of high quality. The thing that I've been the most pleased about all of the OTR infill that's been built/planned todate is that it's all in-scale with the surrounding neighborhood. That is really important.

^In most cases it is probably a combination of the two. The last residents probably did leave a lot of things, but squatters definitely bring in a lot of garbage too.

 

Semi-related: I walk through Pendleton on my way to work, and I frequently see people finish eating a bag of chips or some other snack, and just drop the wrapper on the ground. The sidewalks are covered with litter, and lots of people aren't cleaning up after their dogs. I don't see any of this type of behavior in Over-the-Rhine, especially on Vine or Main. So it seems like the broken window theory is pretty accurate.

 

While I still see it happen more frequently than I like, I would agree. A big difference could be that there are "downtown ambassadors" employed by 3CDC to go up and down Vine, Main, and the Washington Park area to pick up trash especially on weekends. They don't go to Pendleton. Though the broken window theory is definitely part of it. More people throw trash on the ground in Pendleton/North of Liberty because there is already a lot of trash on the ground.

^In most cases it is probably a combination of the two. The last residents probably did leave a lot of things, but squatters definitely bring in a lot of garbage too.

 

Semi-related: I walk through Pendleton on my way to work, and I frequently see people finish eating a bag of chips or some other snack, and just drop the wrapper on the ground. The sidewalks are covered with litter, and lots of people aren't cleaning up after their dogs. I don't see any of this type of behavior in Over-the-Rhine, especially on Vine or Main. So it seems like the broken window theory is pretty accurate.

 

While I still see it happen more frequently than I like, I would agree. A big difference could be that there are "downtown ambassadors" employed by 3CDC to go up and down Vine, Main, and the Washington Park area to pick up trash especially on weekends. They don't go to Pendleton. Though the broken window theory is definitely part of it. More people throw trash on the ground in Pendleton/North of Liberty because there is already a lot of trash on the ground.

 

Good point. I would definitely be willing to pay a few extra dollars per year on my property taxes to fund more of these Downtown Ambassadors walking around the neighborhood.

I live on Walnut Street a half block from Tina's. I get people eating chicken and leaving crap all over the sidewalk in front of my place ALL the time. I honestly don't mind that they use my window sill as a seat because the sidewalk should be our living room, but the garbage is obnoxious because there's a garbage can two doors down. My solution has been to keep a broom and dust pan inside my front door. Every day when I come home I sweep the sidewalk right in front of the people hanging out at my doorstep. As I'm sweeping I say hello to everyone, ask them how their day is going, and tell them they can hang out as long as they want just please remember to this away any garbage after. It's been very affective. I actually live next door to the Catholic Workers House which has a bunch of people always hanging out if their patio. Since I've started cleaning up the sidewalk I've noticed a few if the homeless guys there helping out whenever they see garbage. I couldn't be more thrilled!

I live on Walnut Street a half block from Tina's. I get people eating chicken and leaving crap all over the sidewalk in front of my place ALL the time. I honestly don't mind that they use my window sill as a seat because the sidewalk should be our living room, but the garbage is obnoxious because there's a garbage can two doors down. My solution has been to keep a broom and dust pan inside my front door. Every day when I come home I sweep the sidewalk right in front of the people hanging out at my doorstep. As I'm sweeping I say hello to everyone, ask them how their day is going, and tell them they can hang out as long as they want just please remember to this away any garbage after. It's been very affective. I actually live next door to the Catholic Workers House which has a bunch of people always hanging out if their patio. Since I've started cleaning up the sidewalk I've noticed a few if the homeless guys there helping out whenever they see garbage. I couldn't be more thrilled!

 

THAT is awesome. Perhaps also put a trash can out front if there isn't one already?

I have seen people throw chicken wings on the ground NEXT to a trash can. It's not about how many trash cans. It's about people who do not care.

 

 

Also, has anyone realized that there is actually only one OTR ambassador. 3CDC pays DCI for the cost of one full-time ambassador designated to OTR. For Pendleton residents who may think of OTR as being free of litter, you should see it first thing in the morning on a Saturday or Sunday before the ambassador does his work. There will be trash all over Main Street and yet it's gone in no time. Additionally, I've seen him carry a black can of spray paint and spray over graffiti on lightposts and other things like that.

 

In about 2 to 3 years, once there are more occupied buildings in OTR, I think a group should come together to support an OTR special improvement District similar to the district that funds DCI. Unlike DCI, it would be for a much more limited scope. But having everyone pitching together to support A special improvement District to fund several ambassadors for OTR would be great.

 

Between the nightlife and a large group of residents & visitors who seriously do not care about litter and garbage in the streets, the ambassador service would be phenomenal and, once there are enough residence, fairly cheap to fund.

In about 2 to 3 years, once there are more occupied buildings in OTR, I think a group should come together to support an OTR special improvement District similar to the district that funds DCI. Unlike DCI, it would be for a much more limited scope. But having everyone pitching together to support A special improvement District to fund several ambassadors for OTR would be great.

 

It was attempted a few years ago. The problem with a SID is that you need a certain percentage of property owners to vote for it. Due to OTR having much smaller buildings and condos as opposed to downtown (where one owner controls a whole block), it's much harder to reach that percentage. Even with supportive property owners and owner occupied buildings, it's not an easy threshold to make.

We talked to David Ginsburg, President and CEO of Downtown Cincinnati Incorporated, about this topic on The UrbanCincy Podcast. He mentioned that a SID is just one possible tool for funding these types of services. As OCtoCincy mentioned, 3CDC is currently paying DCI to assign one Downtown Ambassador to OTR. Maybe the OTR Chamber of Commerce could use part of their membership dues to pay for  another one.

The CDCGCA brought in someone from San Diego to speak on these types of district last year. It's pretty exciting to see what can be achieved.

The Business Courier reports that Joseph Williams Home is planning to move out of OTR at the end of the year. Not only have JWH's sales been flat, but 3CDC is attempting to raise their rent.

 

Many of the actions that we have seen from 3CDC in the past few months point to an unfortunate trend. While they previously made an attempt to balance the needs of neighborhood residents with visitors, I fear that the balance is starting to tip.

I wish any retailer in downtown or OTR well, but this article comes off as that the retailer's sales are flat, so the landlord (3CDC) needs to reduce the rent.  Landlord's aren't responsible for a tenant's business model and if he can't pay market rent, or if his business model isn't working he needs to look at other options. 

Really bummed.  I love that store.

Yes, it is very unfortunate. I had the pleasure of working with those folks for several years, and their lease was effectively going to double. They were an isolated store for some time - the edge of the Gateway Quarter, and were doing very well in their business. But doubling their lease? His sales were not flat and were growing, but not at the speed that can comp for that much of a raise in lease rates.

 

I do agree with Travis that the needs of the neighborhood was more properly balanced in the past, but the lease rates are pretty obscene. There was a listing of lease rates, which were anywhere from $9/sf. on Main Street to over $20/sf. on Vine Street. There are several businesses that have moved out in the past year, citing lease rates, and have relocated to non-3CDC properties in Oakley, elsewhere in OTR or to the suburbs. The only ones who can manage these rates are higher end restaurants and boutiques. So you don't see laundromats, dry cleaners, lower end restaurants or quick dining options.

We purchased our living room furniture, among other things, from them. Excellent service. It's a shame, especially with new condos and apartments set to open in the area.

I wish any retailer in downtown or OTR well, but this article comes off as that the retailer's sales are flat, so the landlord (3CDC) needs to reduce the rent.  Landlord's aren't responsible for a tenant's business model and if he can't pay market rent, or if his business model isn't working he needs to look at other options. 

 

JWH was not asking 3CDC to lower their rent. 3CDC wanted to raise it (apparently double it, according to Sherman) and were unwilling to negotiate with JWH.

 

3CDC is not a typical landlord. From their website: "3CDC projects support our four strategic goals to create great civic spaces, create high density mixed-use development, preserve historic structures and streetscapes and build diverse mixed-income neighborhoods supported by local businesses."

 

If you want mixed-income neighborhoods and local businesses, you can't only have expensive restaurants and trendy bars.

This is not the first time I have heard retailers struggle in their dealings with 3CDC. Can they really command double the rent? I can't imagine another high-end furniture store coming in and being able to afford something more than JWH. Is some other kind of high-end boutique willing and able to swing that? 3CDC needs to engage with the neighborhood better, because I am not seeing any strategy when it comes to non-food/drink retail in OTR.

I bet retail is hurt in the area by the ridiculous signage laws.  Your store needs to look like it's open, and an illuminated sign, day or night, announces this.  How did we know the old Smitty's was open?  It had lights going berserk 24 hours per day. 

 

I say this because I haven't even heard of this store you guys are talking about, and I'm sure I've walked past it 100 times. 

I bet retail is hurt in the area by the ridiculous signage laws.  Your store needs to look like it's open, and an illuminated sign, day or night, announces this.  How did we know the old Smitty's was open?  It had lights going berserk 24 hours per day. 

 

I say this because I haven't even heard of this store you guys are talking about, and I'm sure I've walked past it 100 times. 

 

It's the store at 13th and Vine, directly across Vine from The Lackman.