Thanks for the reference map.  That open space has a lot of construction equipment on it currently.

 

I believe 3CDC owns the SE & NE Corners of Vine and 15th, just from driving by and seeing their signs on them.  Those are some impressive buildings that I assume will see redevelopment soon enough.

 

I feel the light rail streetcar will really help Republic Street because it is such a narrow corridor and would be hard to find parking for all the units that could be built/redeveloped there.  I wonder if 3CDC owns most of Republic Street as well?

 

 

 

-LD

So on 3CDC's site they list the 15th and Race project now as having 12 historic rehabs instead of 10. I'm curious if that long building that spans the block closest to Liberty IS actually going to be included now. Which begs the question of whether or not that project will go all the way to Liberty or not. They have one conceptual rendering on their site for the project but you can just see the corner of 15th and Race and the infill that's happening there.

The building that spans between Race and Elm (1539 Race) is not part of the project.

If that's the case then where are they getting the 12 building number from? I only count 10 buildings in the area from 15th up to that building. Are they including a couple buildings across one of the streets as part of this large-scale project? Or am I missing something entirely?

Yeah that's the way I've been counting. Who knows though, I'm sure they'll show us more definitive details relatively soon.

Anyone know why (and when) 15th St. between Vine and Republic has been closed to vehicular traffic?

Anyone know why (and when) 15th St. between Vine and Republic has been closed to vehicular traffic?

 

Probably streetcar construction?

Anyone know why (and when) 15th St. between Vine and Republic has been closed to vehicular traffic?

 

Probably streetcar construction?

 

I was told it was a crime prevention measure.

It's been closed for at least a month.  Kind of a pain--I often would cut over that way to get to Ezzard Charles and the highway. 

They did the same thing with Green Street a few years back. Prevents people from driving down small, largely vacant streets to buy drugs.

Is it closed to cyclists?

Makes sense as there is a lot of loitering outside of Smitty's. Although the recent rehabs along this stretch of 15th should bring more residents to the area.

 

Once it's reopened, I'd like to see it become a two-way.

Is it closed to cyclists?

 

No

 

Here's look at progress in Over-the-Rhine: SLIDESHOW

Chris Wetterich Staff reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

The pride in Over-the-Rhine’s continued revitalization extends to state government in Columbus, and state development officials took reporters, bloggers, preservationists and others on a tour of properties aided by state preservation tax credits.

 

Some of what we saw included:

 

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/blog/2014/01/heres-look-at-progress-in.html

3CDC Proposal north of 15th between Vine and Pleasant: 7 new townhouses on Pleasant, 330 space parking garage, 22 new units around garage, 27 units in existing buildings facing Race.  Project proposes demolishing the rear of 1508 Race and 1532 Pleasant. 

That looks a lot better than Mercer Commons IMO. The storefronts need to be a little less homogenous and the cornices should be a little more ornate, but besides that this is a much better suited development for OTR.

I like all the commercial storefronts along Race.  However, seems like too much parking and that townhouse at the corner of 15th and Pleasant needs to face 15th.

Also, why can't they just make the windows a little more traditional six over six or 2 over 2 windows or something. Those asymmetrical windows look silly and don't fit in.

^I'd steer clear of trying to make these look faux old and too matchy matchy. That never works out and is insensitive to the actual quality historic architecture in the area.

 

Also, about the asymmetrical windows, that's not completely out of the ordinary for the neighborhood. Heck, even the historic building amongst the new townhomes has 4 windows over 4 windows over 5 openings. Symmetry isn't always the case in OTR.

 

It seems like this development will be really good for that part of OTR. Assuming the materials chosen are of a decent quality this will look really nice. I'm not overly fond of the parking garage but unfortunately the car is still dominant even in our urban neighborhoods. Hopefully as more and more happens in the basin this will change. But at the very least it's very well hidden.

I really wish they'd consider what these superblocks look like from the hillsides.  Looking down from Mt Auburn, the Mercer garage is obnoxiously noticeable.  One of the coolest things about OTR and Cincinnati's vernacular is the weird angles of all the rooftops.  Putting these flat roofs looks weird and doesn't make much sense in our climate.  (Weird angled roof lines is one of the only things that 65 West did right.) 

 

I also completely agree with ryamlammi on the windows and storefronts.  They keep forgetting that this is a historic district.  Contemporary finishes, historic massing.

^I'd steer clear of trying to make these look faux old and too matchy matchy. That never works out and is insensitive to the actual quality historic architecture in the area.

 

Also, about the asymmetrical windows, that's not completely out of the ordinary for the neighborhood. Heck, even the historic building amongst the new townhomes has 4 windows over 4 windows over 5 openings. Symmetry isn't always the case in OTR.

 

similar style windows does not equal faux historic. I honestly can't think of a single development in OTR (new or old) that has "non-traditional" windows except the back of the SCPA (which looks hideous).

Both the new buildings in Mercer Commons have non-traditional windows. They are looking fine. The new Tea Company Lofts has a very nontraditional hole cut in its facade and looks fine. The Gateway Garage has non-traditional windows all over. The new building that will be built at 15th and Vine will also have non-traditional windows.

 

My biggest problem with trying to be too similar is that in doing so we end up with boring buildings that are just boxes with windows and fall into the background. There's absolutely no reason an incredibly modern building that only has subtle cues taken from the historic can't work. Look all over cities in Europe. They don't hesitate to build insanely modern buildings that deviate from the tradition and they look incredible. The contrast is what makes an interesting neighborhood. If all of our new infill only follows traditional examples we're completely missing a fantastic opportunity to both celebrate the old and the new. The neighborhood may be full of historic architecture but nothing else about it is historic. The people, the establishments, etc. are all modern in comparison to the age of the buildings. Why not celebrate this modernity alongside celebrating the historic?

If you want to criticize a design for being "faux old and too matchy matchy" that's fine, but if you go that route you must also call out designs like this for being just as derivative and disingenuous.  It's rehashing the same tired deconstructed aesthetic that's been used over and over in nearly all urban residential buildings in the last two or three decades.  It's pretending to be multiple buildings when it's not, and it's obvious that it's not multiple buildings when you see that all the roofs and windows line up.  Of course the real crime is that the whole center of this block is reamed out for yet another expensive parking garage.  It's faux density on top of everything else. 

I really wish they'd consider what these superblocks look like from the hillsides.  Looking down from Mt Auburn, the Mercer garage is obnoxiously noticeable.  One of the coolest things about OTR and Cincinnati's vernacular is the weird angles of all the rooftops.  Putting these flat roofs looks weird and doesn't make much sense in our climate.  (Weird angled roof lines is one of the only things that 65 West did right.) 

 

I also completely agree with ryamlammi on the windows and storefronts.  They keep forgetting that this is a historic district.  Contemporary finishes, historic massing.

 

Good point about the view from above. I don’t like the scale and aesthetic of the superblock in general (even The Banks and the ones that now surround UC) – but they are completely out of scale in OTR, no matter how much decoration goes on at the façade. Nowhere else is that more apparent than the view from the hillsides.

 

Of course, this superblock takes Facadism to a whole other level, but that’s another critique all together.

 

I know nothing about architecture, but I do like how the historic buildings fit into the new construction on the Race Street Side.  I think when heading south on Race Street it will fit in nice with the new Taft's Ale House and the rest of the buildings they have rehabbed on Race leading to Washington Park.

 

I do agree though, that it would look a lot nicer if they varied the heights of the new construction individual buildings a bit.  I don't know a whole lot about construction, but maybe that adds a lot more on to the cost, to add a story or two on a few of the buildings (deeper foundation, stronger material?, etc.).

 

Also, does 3CDC go for LEED Certification?  Maybe this is the reason for the flatter roofs (water retention systems), or maybe they will put decks on top? 

 

 

 

-LD

It looks like this building (the townhouse portion anyway) has a continuous roof plane, so they just vary the parapet wall height a bit in the front.  Any meaningful height variation would be quite an added expense in that case.  Still, all the articulation they're doing in plan with the inset porches is also very expensive too.  Every time you add a corner in the foundation you add cost, and the ins and outs add other expenses too, not to mention worsening the thermal envelope. 

It's amazing the transformation happening in OTR.  It forces you to see streets you never knew existed.  Some of those streets are just beyond awesome.  I can't wait until development happens North of Liberty too.

I just keep looking at that Race St elevation and the first level is REALLY bothering me.  It's messing with the vertical elements.  The more I look at it, though, it's a REALLY easy fix.  The biggest thing is beefing up the columns at the base of the vertical elements.  I just threw together some touch-ups in Photoshop.  Just my two cents.

 

When will 3CDC push a modern aesthetic? The architecture is so...pedestrian and boring. Can we please start to push the envelope, and get something that actually represents 'now.' These are two of my favorite, small scale, new builds in my old 'hood in Philly (and they're right next to each other):

 

http://hiddencityphila.org/2012/09/the-anti-toll-bloc-23-approved-by-zba-breaks-ground-in-early-2013/bainbridge-project_night02/

 

http://blog.philadelphiarealestate.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/24st_evening_View02_new_01.jpg

 

And these are in Philly, where one could argue preservation and worry of 'sensitive infill' runs almost too rampant!

^^I see your point on the columns. Would be an easy fix.

It looks like they will be keeping the facade of the solitary row building at 15th & Race, but will build some sort of NYC-style "addition" onto it.  So it will be on one hand authentic, but on the other totally fake!

Has anybody seen any proposals for the parcels just south of Liberty on either side of Pleasant? Each parcel is about .5 acres (pretty big), and I think they will be key for "bridging" north across Liberty. Auditor's site says the parcel on the east side is owned by OTR Holdings Inc, a subsidiary of 3CDC. Has 3CDC said anything about their plans for that parcel?

 

Can somebody link to or attach the 3CDC proposal for the 15th and Race project?

It looks like they will be keeping the facade of the solitary row building at 15th & Race, but will build some sort of NYC-style "addition" onto it.  So it will be on one hand authentic, but on the other totally fake!

 

"Facadism" at its worst. There’s a storm brewing in NYC because DS+R have proposed to tear down the Folk Art Museum as part of the MOMA expansion. Their logic is that they have to redo the interior to such an extent that the only thing left would be the façade, and it’d be essentially fake – tacked on to the exterior of a completely different building, and thus meaningless and insulting to the original. While people are angry it is likely coming down, everyone agrees sticking the façade onto a different building is an even worse idea.

 

On a smaller scale, that’s what we have going on here. We’ll probably see more faux pas like this as 3CDC seems content on following the uptown model of building nothing but completely out of scale superblocks. What’s even worse in this case is that they’re trying to dress it up like it isn’t a superblock. At least be honest about it.

 

^ And it's not as if there aren't some very large buildings in OTR that show you don't have to make a new one look like a bunch of row houses.  The old SCPA/Woodward High School, the old Alms & Doepke Building, Music Hall, even the YMCA.  I think though that they should be looking at some of the sizable brewery buildings to take their cues from, since those are similar in scale. 

It looks like they will be keeping the facade of the solitary row building at 15th & Race, but will build some sort of NYC-style "addition" onto it.  So it will be on one hand authentic, but on the other totally fake!

 

"Facadism" at its worst. There’s a storm brewing in NYC because DS+R have proposed to tear down the Folk Art Museum as part of the MOMA expansion. Their logic is that they have to redo the interior to such an extent that the only thing left would be the façade, and it’d be essentially fake – tacked on to the exterior of a completely different building, and thus meaningless and insulting to the original. While people are angry it is likely coming down, everyone agrees sticking the façade onto a different building is an even worse idea.

 

On a smaller scale, that’s what we have going on here. We’ll probably see more faux pas like this as 3CDC seems content on following the uptown model of building nothing but completely out of scale superblocks. What’s even worse in this case is that they’re trying to dress it up like it isn’t a superblock. At least be honest about it.

 

 

Agreed. When I looked at the elevation I was like..."what is THAT little...oh, jeeeez."

I wish there were more "Individual projects" too.  Part of what makes the infill in Chicago look so much better than Cincy's is due to this more patchwork approach (there are exceptions of course).

I have no problem with saving a facade if the interior is beyond saving, Preferable to a full demo in most cases. Maybe it's blasphemy from an architect's perspective, but from my perspective I probably will never see the interior of the building anyway. The primary contribution of a historic building to the environment around it is its facade.

 

I also think you start losing the argument to the "property rights uber alles" crowd if you don't allow facade preservation as a compromise.

There's more than one way to handle a facade too.  Making it a freestanding object disconnected from the rest of the building (both literally and figuratively) with hollowed out window openings ala the Penn Mutual Life Insurance building in Philadelphia is very much a discredited and highly discouraged methodology.  http://goo.gl/maps/KzLJ7 

 

Retaining the facades and fenestration, but using black glass and non-operable doors such as you see at the Circle Centre Mall in Indianapolis is at least slightly better, but still quite bad.  http://goo.gl/maps/7ZJjo

 

10 South LaSalle in Chicago is perhaps questionable in its choice of blue/green metal, but the new skyscraper does respond to the structural bays of the original Otis Building from which it rises.  The floors that occupy the old envelope also respond properly to the original window openings.  http://goo.gl/maps/kWOQn

 

So at least as far as I'm concerned, what's important is maintaining the same overall functionality and use of openings.  Doors should remain doors, windows should remain windows, and the floors and walls inside shouldn't intersect in odd ways.  If those things are done, and it's not surrounded by some monolithic expanse of nothingness, like what they did to the old Albee Theater facade on the convention center http://goo.gl/maps/wSydX then it's at least OK.

^ Agree on all points. The original facade should be respected as an organic part of the new building. It should either be unnoticeable from the street that the building is not original, or tastefully considered as part of the design (a la the Otis Building). In OTR, I would think the first option is most suitable in most cases.

^ Agree on all points. The original facade should be respected as an organic part of the new building. It should either be unnoticeable from the street that the building is not original, or tastefully considered as part of the design (a la the Otis Building). In OTR, I would think the first option is most suitable in most cases.

 

Tastefully you say?

 

Mexican Embassy in DC

Ugh...  that's heinous. Who let that partial-abortion get built?

It looks like typical 1970s brutalist crap, and at that time such treatment of historic buildings was de rigueur. 

Absolutely horrible!  (What was this--some sort of architectural "insider joke"?)

FYI, those two buildings are some the oldest homes in DC and the office building around it was built in 1986.

I just saw the pricing for One Mercer (which is right next door to me).  Holy cow.  I am glad I bought when I did. 

I just saw the pricing for One Mercer (which is right next door to me).  Holy cow.  I am glad I bought when I did. 

 

Yeah, apparently I'm a fool for having passed on the $160K piece of crap condo I walked through on 12th St. last spring.   

I just saw the pricing for One Mercer (which is right next door to me).  Holy cow.  I am glad I bought when I did. 

 

Tell me about it.  We just had a bid recently accepted on a three bedroom condo near Washington Park.  Even though it cost us two arms and a leg it still seems like a steal compared to some of the other stuff that's coming online lately.

They have essentially doubled the prices in 3 years.  I'm half wondering if I should sell now (and put the proceeds to my rehab). 

We need to democratize the development process if we want prices to come down.  As long as 3CDC is the only game in town, they will be able to control the rents where they want them.  There is so much vacant housing in the neighborhood, supply should more than keep up with demand if we can just get development from other entities.

Doesn't that have more to do with ability to obtain affordable financing for redevelopment?

 

As I understand, 3CDC uses a rolling "loan fund" where they give out low interest loans to developers.  When they receive the money back, they send it back out again on more loans.  In theory this will create a larger pot of money for more development, like a snowball effect, once rents go up, etc.  Look at the 3CDC website for more information.  They also use other funding sources as well, i.e. historic tax credits, Cincinnati City Tax Credits, etc. 

 

The streetcar will help with bringing more players to the game.  Banks will be more willing to give out lower interest loans on the line and close to it, because it will make for more sustainable development, more of a guarantee because people will induce demand to live on a fixed transit line that takes them close to work, groceries, shopping, entertainment, etc.

 

As it is now, only 3CDC and a few others are there with the sufficient funds needed to revitalize the area.  The demand grows along where 3CDC builds, across the street, next block over, etc.  I am guessing that area banks want to see a bit more proof before giving out lower interest rate loans for redevelopment.  But who knows, they may be doing that already. 

 

Right now it is a slow process, that is why the Streetcar is so important.  It will speed up the process, capturing more money for the city faster.

 

Also, once the transit line is in place, there will be fewer needs for parking and construction of parking garages, lots, and spaces.  This will make redevelopment and development construction cheaper, resulting in lower house prices and rents that are more affordable, not to mention more money for people who chose to not own a car.

 

It will also make the area awesome, just because of the huge uptick in population and street traffic.  Think of a Saturday for a Reds game or Sunday Bengals game, or Thursday happy hour, etc. 

 

It will be great!