^^^I'm fine with everything you said as long as the rich who move in are fine with it being a tourist and entertainment destination a la French Quarter.  That's what OTR was build as and that's what it needs to be.  I'm one of those OTR Millennials who will inevitably get pushed out by higher rent, yet I fully support continued development in the neighborhood.

Edit: Oops, I messed up and edited instead of quoting and lost this original message.

Natinja, go to Indy and look at the Lockerbie glove factory which started out at  many units and today is about half that or any of the early built condo complexes, go to east coast cities where the same thing happened or Chicago. Pittsburg is already starting to build larger units. The whole gameplan for OTR was to start out cheap , get enough people in so the people with money wouldn't be afraid to move in. That is the way Every urban center redeveloped.  Cincinnati is not going to be different and you are kidding youself is you thing OTR is going to be some multi income melting pot where the poor happily and peacefully co-exist with the 20 something hipsters. At 300 a sq ft , NONE of those people will be living in OTR at this rate. I already have OTR people over in Knox hill who sold out there and are restoring in my hood. Cincinnati will have a wealthy center with the poor pushed out to the townships and the old 50's suburbs.

 

Who lives downtown in most cities?

 

Lots of executives and middle managers over 40 with kids, They want larger units and garages for their cars

 

Most big cities around the world indeed have wealthy centers and a ring of poverty on the outside. What don't they have? Personal garages in their downtowns. On the contrary, they have high-valued, densely developed land where space for cars is kept to a minimum because its market value is lower than that of commercial or living space.

 

If OTR follows "every other major city," this is the pattern that would establish itself.

I saw a tweet saying the last unit at Mercer One (or whatever the condos directly facing Vine Street are called) sold for $380/SF.  That's nuts.

 

I am seriously thinking of selling my condo and taking the profits!

Most big cities around the world indeed have wealthy centers and a ring of poverty on the outside. What don't they have? Personal garages in their downtowns. On the contrary, they have high-valued, densely developed land where space for cars is kept to a minimum because its market value is lower than that of commercial or living space.

 

If OTR follows "every other major city," this is the pattern that would establish itself.

 

Were are an affordable midwest or mid atlantic city, not Manhattan or Hong Kong.

^-I'd argue Mid-Atlantic with southern and midwestern influences.

 

Not sure if Indianapolis is a good comparison, as its quite un-urban.  Chicago might be slightly better though there are issues with that comparison too, but at the very least its a city that's still quite urban being restored as opposed to a handful of somewhat dense (in building stock here) downtown neighborhoods surrounded by sprawl.

 

Eventually smaller units may combine, that's true as places gentrify there is a slight reduction in density its happening in the established northside Chicago areas that are going more family friendly.  I don't think there will be a huge amount of single families though, OTR is not that kind of hood though nearby there is a fallow falling down area that needs a ton of TLC that has some.

^^ Look at the comment I was responding to:

If Cincinnati follows every other major city the next OTR trend will be people buying those small 900 sq ft 3CDC shoeboxes and combining them

 

This is not what has happened in cities around the US or the world as urban cores gentrify. Indy is a horrible example to cherry-pick, as it has nothing remotely resembling OTR. Hell, New Orleans would be a better cherry-pick. It's an affordable southern city with a legitimately dense urban core.

Sorry, that was $350/SF.  My bad. 

The concept that Over-the-Rhine is only available to "the rich" is ridiculous. As I mentioned in another thread, when I got my first entry-level professional job, I rented a two-bedroom apartment in OTR with one roommate, and spent significantly less than 30% of my annual income on rent.

Most big cities around the world indeed have wealthy centers and a ring of poverty on the outside. What don't they have? Personal garages in their downtowns. On the contrary, they have high-valued, densely developed land where space for cars is kept to a minimum because its market value is lower than that of commercial or living space.

 

If OTR follows "every other major city," this is the pattern that would establish itself.

 

Interesting the latest development I read about in Indy is offering 4 car garages . Lifts that allow double space parking have exploded in sales in just about ever major city I know of. Interesting about New Orleans I'm working with a client right now installing lifts in his garage so he can park his cars off street.

 

Cincinnati is NOT New York, people in the Midwest like to drive. Many of my friends in NYC would love to own a car and are envious that we have space for parking at affordable prices

No one said Cincinnati was New York (but we ARE competing for the same residents), though BTW there are large portions of New York that have single-family detached houses with garages and the whole nine yards. And in fact there are some personal garages on the island of Manhattan, so I apologize for a bit of an overstatement in saying "What don't they have? Personal garages in their downtowns." -- that was a little too strong, as most (or all) cities probably do have a few. But it's not very popular to have them in many downtowns, and certainly not in New Orleans, so your anecdote doesn't disprove anything but the strongest reading of my statement.

 

Another thing you should take into account is that, while 20- and 30-somethings may be priced out of Over-the-Rhine in the next couple decades, in two decades today's 20- and 30-somethings will be 40- and 50-somethings, with more money and their same entrenched car-light habits. I would actually submit that the trend likely to die is the one of car-dependent people living in dense neighborhoods; the novelty will wear off and people will realize they can drive to downtown in a few minutes from a neighborhood that more reasonably accommodates their addiction. The main distinguishing factor of living in OTR vs. Fort Thomas is walkability.

 

If you look at real data you'll see a greater move in retrofitting suburbs to be walkable and bike/transit-friendly rather than inner-cities getting car elevator garages.

Suburbs have to become more walkable as those pushed out of the inner core of cities wind up there. hardest hit are what are call old suburbs built in the 50's-60's-70's that have already lost a lot of shopping opportunity due to expansion of the "far burbs' and newer shopping malls and 'lifestyle malls.

 

Recent studies have shown that there are more people at or below the poverty line than ever before. Those people can't afford the cost of a car and an ever increasing senior population who intend to stay in the burbs who wont be able to drive a car in a few years. New solutions will have to be developed to address those issues.  But public transportation may be more important in suburbia in a few years than walkability. Suburbia , unlike cities, was not planned around public transportation, it was planned around the proposition that everyone drives everywhere.

 

But I can tell you that as 20 somethings have more disposable income, the freedom posed by a personal car is very attractive. I don't ever think there will ever be a majority position in this area that public transport is favored over cars.

 

As you get older Biking in winter, or waiting at a bus or streetcar stop is not attractive or desirable. OTR will always need parking, maybe not as much in the 70's and 80's but it wont be because people don't want cars its just because density will be reduced. Instead of a tenement with 20 people living in it, it might be a triplex with 5 or 6 residents. As OTR develops there will be greater demand for luxury residences and condos. Actually probably the priciest real estate may once again be "millionaires row" on Dayton street. Based on the restorations I'm seeing prices are definitely going up. The proposition of owning a 5-6000 sq ft house will be very attractive to executives who want to be downtown. I actually thing N of Liberty has great potential for some of those tenement buildings to be turned into luxury homes. Not to mention small to midsized warehouses that are in the area. One could soon see stuff like this.

 

http://www.everhartlistings.com/Listing.aspx?oid=822630&ot=213

But I can tell you that as 20 somethings have more disposable income, the freedom posed by a personal car is very attractive. I don't ever think there will ever be a majority position in this area that public transport is favored over cars.

 

As you get older Biking in winter, or waiting at a bus or streetcar stop is not attractive or desirable. OTR will always need parking, maybe not as much in the 70's and 80's but it wont be because people don't want cars its just because density will be reduced.

 

I disagree completely.  I remember viewing a car as "freedom" back in High School, but then I got rid of my car and discovered true freedom.  I can live wherever I want and use whatever mode of transportation makes most sense.  By not owning a car, I can live in my dream apartment in Over-the-Rhine without paying the premium for parking, without having to worry about my car on the streets at night, etc.  I'm free to walk to work on beautiful days, bike to work if I'm running a little behind, take the bus to work on poor weather days, take a cab if I need to go somewhere in the inner ring suburbs in a hurry, or rent a car if I need to go visit family or want to take a day trip somewhere.  By not owning a car, the money situation is freed up allowing all of these other modes to be perfectly financially viable options.  The most liberating aspect of this lifestyle is knowing the systems available.  When you invest so much into owning a car, often these other modes seem pointless.  It doesn't really make sense to pay bus fare when you're already paying an arm and a leg for your car.

 

I'm currently in that disposable income period of my life and with the lifestyle I've chosen, I'm using that extra cash to rent sexy cars.  (Let me be clear, I'm not car free because I hate cars...I'm car free because I LOVE cars.)  Last time I went to Chicago to visit my sister our in the burbs, I took a Megabus to the Loop and rented a Porsche.  That was fun to drive and even more fun to show up at my sister's place to park next to her Prius.  I rented a Mustang to go to my dad's house in Peoria.  That was surprisingly not fun to drive.  Oh well.  The car I rent most often is a Mazda 3.  It's so much fun to zip around in, but lately I've been enjoying the new Ford Focuses.  Fortunately I'm not stuck with the Mazda 3, I've been driving all last year...I'm completely free to start driving the Focus whenever I want.  The BEST part is that I NEVER drive a beater.  I am always in brand new cars.  The Mazda I was in on Wednesday had 900 miles on it and it still had that new car smell.  Sometimes I find myself feeling sorry for my friends who are stuck with ramshackle money-pits.  I feel particularly unsafe in those types of vehicles. 

 

Lastly, you mention weather in Winter.  When I gave up my car 8 years ago, I was living in Milwaukee.  Wisconsin winters are HORRIBLE.  Initially I thought that Winter would be the worst time of year not to own a car too, but I quickly learned the exact opposite.  It's the absolute BEST time not to own a car.  I do not miss shoveling out my car, or having to move it off the streets during snow emergencies, or going out in the cold 10 minutes before I leave to start the car warming up.  Instead I just walk out my door and jump on the bus.  I don't even have to worry about risking my life on icy roads.  When I get older, I absolutely do not want to have to drive myself everywhere.  That sounds stressful, dangerous, and a waste of my time.

 

Speaking of time...that's the biggie that auto-centric people don't seem to grasp easily.  Yes, it often takes longer to get from point A to point B on transit.  HOWEVER, the amount of passive time versus active time is greatly increased.  I'm a very busy person.  I don't have time to waste driving on the freeway for 20 minutes  each way to get to Kenwood.  That's 40 minutes of my life NOT accomplishing work related things.  Instead I walk out my door two blocks to the bus stop, check e-mails while I'm waiting (which is usually less than 5 minutes, because I know my regular routes well), then spend 40 minutes responding to e-mails or writing reports on the bus.  The commute time doubled, but the amount of time taken away from my available work day was reduced to less than 5 minutes. 

 

This is my life, and the lifestyle of a HUGE group of my peers that is growing annually.  This isn't some blip in people's driving habits tied to the struggling economy.  This is a very real shift in the way people collectively relate to car-ownership. 

The biggest problem with RestorationConsultant's predictions for OTR is that they have not come to fruition in any city anywhere ever. Whereas every developed country has multiple cities with densely built urban cores like Cincinnati's with high property values in the center, walkability, transit access, TOD, etc.

 

RC uses the argument that a mixed-income future is fantasy for OTR, and I think it's a strong argument because there isn't really a city with a vibrant core that has a reasonable mix of incomes (despite many cities ostensibly working toward that ideal). But somehow RC suspends this measure for what's realistic when he imagines a neighborhood of preserved historic tenements turning into low-density housing full of 50-something executives with three-car households.

Natininja: most of my clients are 50 something executives and most live in urban downtowns because I do work all across the country. The biggest request I'm getting right now is how do I get a garage built in historic district or can I engineer and underground garage in my back yard when they wont let me build a garage .

 

The latest and perhaps easiest solution is the cardock garage and frankly it makes great sense in OTR for those buildings that have an alley but the old carriage house is gone. you can preserve patio space or have an off street parking pad solution and the garage is underground. Given the site circumstance it is possible to gain  basement access and potentially part 2-4 cars underground in tandem with the lift being the access point for underground storage. This eliminates the wasted patio or green space that must be used with conventional underground ramp systems. It is highly secure too which makes it popular with high dollar cars. When you consider the cost of building new garage structure in a historic district it really is a cost effective solution.

 

Probably giving the OTR bike/walk/streetcar crowd a heart attack right now but this is the best solution to allow parking and preserve open space and we should be looking at making this the preferred option for new infill or renovations to building a conventional garage structure that likely wont be compatible historically in dense urban neighborhoods.

 

This has expanded options of allowing parking on the infill lot level with new historic compatible structures at street level. Lets face it the intrusion of garages in a 1850-1865 district is unsightly, this is how you can do it and preserve architectural integrity.

I never denied such a thing exists. I denied that there exist neighborhoods like OTR where they are ubiquitous.

The whole gameplan for OTR was to start out cheap , get enough people in so the people with money wouldn't be afraid to move in.

 

Not really.  I mean, that may be what's happening, but the gameplan was to deconcentrate poverty after the riot.  That was what finally forced the city rethink its strategy of simply ignoring the problems in OTR and letting it serve as a concentration point for the city's section 8 housing.  Yes, the units started out cheaper, but they had to because of the perception of the neighborhood that had built for 30-40 years.  After enough young people started buying in, the neighborhood started looking trendy and "safe".  OTR becoming attractive to the rich may be a side effect, but it wasn't the goal.

 

OTR will always need parking, maybe not as much in the 70's and 80's but it wont be because people don't want cars its just because density will be reduced. Instead of a tenement with 20 people living in it, it might be a triplex with 5 or 6 residents.

 

This assumes that all of the buildings in OTR are occupied.  Since much of OTR is abandoned, you have to account for buildings that currently house zero occupants.  As those get redeveloped, you are likely to see OTR's population density increase.

 

Probably giving the OTR bike/walk/streetcar crowd a heart attack right now but

 

Nah.  We don't begrudge anyone how they want to travel or spend their money.  If someone wants to build an underground garage for their sports car, more power to them.  We just want options, so that driving isn't the only way we can get around. 

3CDC may oversee more OTR projects

Bowdeya Tweh, [email protected] 11:45 p.m. EDT June 23, 2014

 

The city of Cincinnati moved one step closer to naming 3CDC as the preferred developer for more than 30 properties it owns in Over-the-Rhine.

 

City Council's Budget and Finance Committee voted 6-0 in support of the deal. A full council vote is expected Wednesday.

 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/money/2014/06/23/otr-cdc-liberty/11297571/

From a picture I saw online, it looks like old St. John at 12th & Elm won a State of Ohio Historic Preservation Tax Credit for 2014 announced today.  I haven't seen formal announcement but Cleveland.com has an article today on their local projects that won for this round (Round 12).

I would love to see that church reused. I'm not sure what would work in there though. That's a quiet block. Does anybody have a clue what's going to replace the Drop Inn Center? 

I've heard the church is planning to be a music venue/event space and a restaurant, but I haven't heard any updates about it. No idea about the Drop Inn Center. I would imagine 3CDC would redevelop the site for housing.

^ It is one of the 11 local projects win state tax credits

 

Also in OTR and South of Liberty: Emanuel Community Center

Cincinnati.com now has complete list of winning projects for State of Ohio Historic Preservation Tax Credits.

 

Oh, Cygnus beat me to it ...

11 local projects win state tax credits

 

In OTR and North of Liberty:

 

1818 and 1826 Race St.

Globe Building

From that article regarding the church at 12th and Elm:

 

The former German Evangelical and Reformed Church property, a landmark across from Washington Park, will be redeveloped into a bar and a larger entertainment/event space in the former sanctuary and balcony.

 

Also really glad to see the Globe Furniture building got awards. Visible from Findlay Market it will help the area a lot.

A tidbit from the streetcar thread: it seems that 14th Street will soon become two-way between Elm and Race. I'm not sure about between Race and Vine.

I assume the on-street parking will have to go with that conversion, forcing more people to have to use the garages (and pay). I sensed a conspiracy when they first built the garage and eliminated the on-street parking all around the park, this just adds to it.

 

Aside from the tin-foil theory, I do really believe that the sidewalks around Washington Park would feel much safer if they on-street parking hadn't been removed, and I think you'd get a lot more people making quick, unplanned visits.

Or put a bike lane next to the curb.  It's not quite wide enough to be three lanes of traffic, nor is it striped off that way anyhow, so why not (besides Cranley)? 

I really like the lack of parking bordering the park. It allows for better views of Music Hall and the surrounding architecture from the park. It also makes the park look more inviting. I really think it was an aesthetic purpose and not to fill the garage.

The 1818-1826 buildings are quite massive. I'm curious what the plans are for them. It will open up a lot of storefront space right across the street from Findlay Market. https://www.google.com/maps/@39.116224,-84.518443,3a,90y,84.87h,106.45t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s2urQVI5sNIIpJOc-gzOMhg!2e0

 

Also very exciting that the Globe Building received funding. The Findlay Market neighborhood is going to be so transformed a couple of years from now.

 

This is exciting news. It really seems like this was the tipping point for the Findlay area. So many little things have been happening building up towards large-scale projects and it's seeming like the first batch of large renovation projects are about to happen. By the time the streetcar opens we'll hopefully have a nice residential and commercial cluster around the Findlay area developing.

Too many of those buildings are in horrible condition.  Like $50,000+ in work just to get them to be worth $0 due to joist rot and foundation issues.  It's still going to be very slow going and mostly by 3CDC or other big developers. 

1826 is Lafayette Hall.  This link was last updated in 2011, but I'm curious if it's the same project:  http://www.historiclafayettehall.com/

1826 is Lafayette Hall.  This link was last updated in 2011, but I'm curious if it's the same project:  http://www.historiclafayettehall.com/

 

Similar. Model owns the building now. Mostly office with some residential. Some cool plans for the top floor beer hall space and attic.

I assume the on-street parking will have to go with that conversion, forcing more people to have to use the garages (and pay). I sensed a conspiracy when they first built the garage and eliminated the on-street parking all around the park, this just adds to it.

 

Aside from the tin-foil theory, I do really believe that the sidewalks around Washington Park would feel much safer if they on-street parking hadn't been removed, and I think you'd get a lot more people making quick, unplanned visits.

 

I'm not sure the parking would go.  The 14th Street from Elm to Central Pkwy is the same width, two-way, and has parking.  Why wouldn't it be exactly the same?

Yeah it's not until it crosses over Race going east towards Vine that it shrinks from about 30' to 20'. No reason the parking on the opposite side from Washington Park can't remain. It wouldn't be any different than the other streets around the park that have parking on the side opposite the park.

Just curious if anyone has any updates on the Taft's Ale House project?  I haven't heard anything since construction was supposed to start in March. Is this project happening?

 

 

I live across the street and they are out there everyday working. It's tough to see in since the first floor is raised so much above ground level so you can't see anything through windows other than the level below what will be the first floor of the Ale House. But there are dumpsters outside, workers moving materials, things going on. Whether it's moving as fast as they claimed it would or not though is hard to tell.

^Thanks. That's a relief. I check in on their Facebook page but there hasn't been anything new since Easter. I was starting to worry.

On another note, I've noticed a lot of work going on inside the church at Republic and 15th. Does anyone know what's going on there? I believe it was vacant before and can't tell what exactly they're doing but they're clearly gutting it (or at least part of it) and there's scaffolding on the backside of the building.

 

http://www.bairproperty.com/leopoldt-townhomes/

This project seems to be finishing up and the backside is visible from Vine Street. The pictures on their Flickr show what appears to be a pretty decent project.

 

They're also starting a project on Republic right by Liberty.

http://www.bairproperty.com/1535republic/

They've removed the old windows and have been doing what appears to be selective demo on the interior. It's a nice little building so it'll be good to see some life brought to it.

 

One of the larger buildings on the west side of Republic was getting new windows the other week but they've been covered back up so I have no clue what's going on with that. But it appeared they were in the process of clearing up the building for a larger renovation.

 

The Tea Company Townhomes are also almost finished up and ready to go up for sale. They had an open house and I meant to go but it completely slipped my mind. Whenever the next one is I'll attend and grab some photos. But from their Flickr it looks like a really nice project.

 

I've also noticed a handful of times people who looked like contractors walking around the large building next to the Nicolay on Republic. Contractor type people could also be seen several times from my windows on top of the building Smitty's is currently located in. Has anyone heard anything about these buildings getting some TLC? I'd imagine the one on Republic is going to become something soon as it's a large, good looking building in a part of OTR that's seeing a lot of investment right now.

On another note, I've noticed a lot of work going on inside the church at Republic and 15th. Does anyone know what's going on there? I believe it was vacant before and can't tell what exactly they're doing but they're clearly gutting it (or at least part of it) and there's scaffolding on the backside of the building.

 

http://www.bairproperty.com/leopoldt-townhomes/

This project seems to be finishing up and the backside is visible from Vine Street. The pictures on their Flickr show what appears to be a pretty decent project.

 

They're also starting a project on Republic right by Liberty.

http://www.bairproperty.com/1535republic/

They've removed the old windows and have been doing what appears to be selective demo on the interior. It's a nice little building so it'll be good to see some life brought to it.

 

One of the larger buildings on the west side of Republic was getting new windows the other week but they've been covered back up so I have no clue what's going on with that. But it appeared they were in the process of clearing up the building for a larger renovation.

 

The Tea Company Townhomes are also almost finished up and ready to go up for sale. They had an open house and I meant to go but it completely slipped my mind. Whenever the next one is I'll attend and grab some photos. But from their Flickr it looks like a really nice project.

 

I've also noticed a handful of times people who looked like contractors walking around the large building next to the Nicolay on 15th. Contractor type people could also be seen several times from my windows on top of the building Smitty's is currently located in. Has anyone heard anything about these buildings getting some TLC? I'd imagine the one on Republic is going to become something soon as it's a large, good looking building in a part of OTR that's seeing a lot of investment right now.

 

Wow you're right the place on Jackson looks really neat especially with the way they did that balcony and the reclaimed wood shelves.  Also the Tea Company places are looking really nice as well at least from the pics.  I really like the design of the geometric shelving.

1405-7 Republic (just north of Salazar) is going to be rehabbed by OTR Community Housing:

 

http://www.building-cincinnati.com/2013/08/otrch-gets-tax-exemption-loan-for-13.html

That's good to hear. I'm happy it'll have new life brought to it. That block has very quickly gone from mostly abandoned with only a handful of buildings occupied to a nice mix of uses and income levels. And the handful of pocket parks is nice as well.

Not sure if this was posted but found this one:

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9xakPgvX94IJ:city-egov.cincinnati-oh.gov/Webtop/ws/council/public/child/Blob/39898.pdf%3Bjsessionid%3D45749091BC054E1749BD1B8AB3562955%3Fm%3D38711+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

1405-1407 Elm Street Rehab to 4 market rate apartments.

I was wondering how long it would take for those two buildings to get some help. That corner is quickly becoming a nice segue into Elm Street from the Washington Park area. The violin building across the street is set to get some work as well. And in conjunction with the Hummel building it should look pretty nice in a few years.

 

I'm really hoping 1420 gets some work. It has a nice stone facade instead of the more typical brick and it's shape, height, and proportions are unique to OTR. This stretch of Elm has some pretty cool architecture which will look fantastic once it has all been rehabbed.

Is there a new boom materializing in non-3CDC development, or is it just getting talked about more here in the past few days? (Or a little of columns A & B?)

It might just be because I'm living in OTR now so I'm noticing it more, but there are a lot more little projects happening throughout the neighborhood which are being done by individuals or smaller development groups than what I noticed in the past.

 

For instance, the building behind me on Republic just finished a renovation into a single family home. They built a suburban style garage on the vacant lot next to the building which was somewhat unfortunate, but it was a pretty extensive project for a couple pregnant with a kid. I believe they worked with a builder but it wasn't a spec project which I think is a really good sign. People with money and starting families doing very specific projects in OTR.

Good to hear. But...

 

They built a suburban style garage on the vacant lot next to the building

 

...That's an efficient way to murder the historic character. Hard to believe that is allowed in a historic district. Did they get a variance or something? Anyone know?

Anything done in OTR, assuming it is within the boundaries of OTR and (essentially) is visible from the street, is subject to review by the Historic Conservation board.  They are pretty on top of stuff that is not allowed; at the OTR foundation workshops, one of the presenters did a slide show that included photos of a property where the exterior was impermissibly altered and the owners had to stop construction. 

 

So, I don't know about this specific instance, but typically any construction project like that would have to go through the process.