3 hours ago, mrclifton88 said:

 

Is this really true?  Didn't they just reopen with the original owner of Brasa buying it back?

Sadly, yes it’s true. Yes, the original owner bought it back and then closed within a year. Paper is up in the windows.

 

3 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Hate to be the jerk here, but I’m not surprised. I’d always heard from people that his restaurants were leveraged to the hilt and could eventually be a financial liability. Though, to be clear, I’m not certain that has anything to do with this.

 

Nonetheless, Sawyer seems like a really nice guy and I love his food, so I hope whatever happened can be remedied.

Shocked but not surprised about Greenhouse. Unfortunate - but recall there there was some extended family drama/financial fun going on that involved lawyers and lawsuits - that his wife wrote about a few years back on her blog. That easily could have caught up with them.

 

Love Sawyer, but he's also been negative about CLE vs, say, Columbus, so he lost me a bit there - but must say his (sort of) Sawyer's in Shaker Heights is darned good food, though. And he's been a great food celebrity ambassador for city 

 

Also, hate seeing two prime E4th spots vacant though. Ouch  

Edited February 6, 20205 yr by eyehrtfood

9 minutes ago, eyehrtfood said:

Shocked but not surprised about Greenhouse. Unfortunate - but recall there there was some extended family drama/financial fun going on that involved lawyers and lawsuits - that his wife wrote about a few years back on her blog. That easily could have caught up with them.

 

Love Sawyer, but he's also been negative about CLE vs, say, Columbus, so he lost me a bit there - but must say his (sort of) Sawyer's in Shaker Heights is darned good food, though. And he's been a great food celebrity ambassador for city 

 

Also, hate seeing two prime E4th spots vacant though. Ouch  

Really hope we can fill these spots, really worries me. 

This is so sad. The food there was amazing, the vibe was super cool, and the rooftop bar was one of my favorite summer hangouts downtown.

 

Here’s to hoping something good replaces it quickly. That’s a prime spot.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Lola is next.  Restaurant business is brutal right now.

1 minute ago, Pigmeat said:

I wouldn’t be surprised if Lola is next.  Restaurant business is brutal right now.

Why do you say that?

I did enjoy Greenhouse Tavern, but I always had a lot of questions about Sawyer. Heard things from staff, had an issue that he ignored when I gave feedback, and his demeanor seemed to shift the past ten years.  He WAS the pioneer for urban restaurants in downtown.  He was front of the pack. Then he ditched noodlecat for Crocker. I just was confused by it all.  All his places were full when I went there.

 

my sense is his heart And his wife’s has always been in nyc, and they are kind of here for whatever reason, restaurants or kids or whatever.  When youR heart is not 100% into something, hard to Give it your all

14 minutes ago, BelievelandD1 said:

I did enjoy Greenhouse Tavern, but I always had a lot of questions about Sawyer. Heard things from staff, had an issue that he ignored when I gave feedback, and his demeanor seemed to shift the past ten years.  He WAS the pioneer for urban restaurants in downtown.  He was front of the pack. Then he ditched noodlecat for Crocker. I just was confused by it all.  All his places were full when I went there.

 

my sense is his heart And his wife’s has always been in nyc, and they are kind of here for whatever reason, restaurants or kids or whatever.  When youR heart is not 100% into something, hard to Give it your all

Didn't he just open a restaurant in Shaker Heights?  Could that be his focus now?

I suspect that it takes a *ton* of discipline for a chef with other income opportunities to keep investing energy in a restaurant after so many years. Much less fun than opening the next place. 

 

And I wonder if MRN is going to regret pricing Bruell off the street (if his version is correct).

5 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

Didn't he just open a restaurant in Shaker Heights?  Could that be his focus now?

He did. It’s good too. But margins are thin in restaurant world. Having multiple spots and using your name and likeness to draw crowds is where money is at. Just having sawyers and see saw can’t possibly

make him a wealthy entrepreneur . He has a James Beard Award! That means something in these parts 

1 hour ago, eyehrtfood said:

Love Sawyer, but he's also been negative about CLE vs, say, Columbus, so he lost me a bit there ...

 

Don't understand---has he been pushing Columbus as a city over Cleveland?

^ I don’t think he has. He was enthusiastic about see saw because he got a new group of investors including kipnis. See saw is a freaking sports bar

Chinato's and now this? WTF is going on? I'm honestly getting worried about E4 if another business closes on that street. To be blunt, I hope the panhandling isn't driving people away and causing less patrons to visit the places on E4. I mean, it's frankly becoming a bit much with them. 

1 hour ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Chinato's and now this? WTF is going on? I'm honestly getting worried about E4 if another business closes on that street. To be blunt, I hope the panhandling isn't driving people away and causing less patrons to visit the places on E4. I mean, it's frankly becoming a bit much with them. 

Chiantos was due to a dispute with the landlord I believe not foot traffic.  As many have said here,  I think Greenhouse May have more to do with Sawyer than foot traffic.

 

Who knows though. 

I would’nt be concerned about East 4th.  That street is about to get sherwin Williams and all the foot traffic that comes with it.

Edited February 6, 20205 yr by BelievelandD1

East 4th already has SW.  

6 minutes ago, mack34 said:

East 4th already has SW.  

You know what I mean. Adding employees, easier walk, probably residential. It should spin off nicely.

I know what you mean......But 4th street is always the first place anyone takes SW employees out to lunch.  Besides Mortons....(which has an entrance right outside the lobby of COE) .  Those extra SW HQ jobs are still 3 years away.  

E 4 could also be missing the crowds from the extended Cavs playoff runs.

15 minutes ago, bjk said:

E 4 could also be missing the crowds from the extended Cavs playoff runs.

I thought about this as well. But even then you don’t want a city that relies on its crappy basketball team to stay afloat. Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse does a good job of getting crowds down there multiple times per week. Our downtown population has grown.  I think if greenhouse wanted this to work it could continue.  10 years is waaaaayyyy past the expected life of a restaurant... I’m not concerned about East 4th as an entertainment district. Still several big anchors.  I’d be more concerned about a michael Symon throwing in the towel due to his other priorities.  However, I think he has a local management team he knows and trusts and doesn’t need to be here to keep his places open 

10 hours ago, BelievelandD1 said:

I did enjoy Greenhouse Tavern, but I always had a lot of questions about Sawyer. Heard things from staff, had an issue that he ignored when I gave feedback, and his demeanor seemed to shift the past ten years.  He WAS the pioneer for urban restaurants in downtown.  He was front of the pack. Then he ditched noodlecat for Crocker. I just was confused by it all.  All his places were full when I went there.

 

my sense is his heart And his wife’s has always been in nyc, and they are kind of here for whatever reason, restaurants or kids or whatever.  When youR heart is not 100% into something, hard to Give it your all

His heart might be in NYC but he bought a Mcmansion out in Bainbridge. I don’t think he’s going anyplace anytime soon. That said, he does have financial issues and has had multiple lawsuits filed against him. I’m going to be a dissenter on Sawyer’s. I ate there last month and it was an unmitigated disaster. His restaurants have been on the decline for several years now. 

Without  elaborating, I know a lot about the restaurant business.  Restaurants go out of business.  That is what they do.  Many in the first 6 months or a year, many others after a long run for one reason or another (often more personal than business).  While declining sales (or no sales in the first place) is obviously the number one reason, personal life decisions and burnout are probably number two and three.  Investor disputes, staffing issues and landlord disputes and too much debt from a build out or renovation (as well as old equipment starting to break down all at once with no capital for re-investment) are also factors many of the time.  Divorce and substance abuse issues often destroy family restaurants.  Many restaurants with a long run just get tired and too dull and familiar, and people just move on.  Again, restaurants go out of business.  At this point I don't see any evidence that it is an East 4th "thing". If any area is a concern to me is the Chagrin and Chagrin Highlands area.  Lots of closures the past two years yet chains keep pouring in.  

1 hour ago, Htsguy said:

Without  elaborating, I know a lot about the restaurant business.  Restaurants go out of business.  That is what they do.  Many in the first 6 months or a year, many others after a long run for one reason or another (often more personal than business).  While declining sales (or no sales in the first place) is obviously the number one reason, personal life decisions and burnout are probably number two and three.  Investor disputes, staffing issues and landlord disputes and too much debt from a build out or renovation (as well as old equipment starting to break down all at once with no capital for re-investment) are also factors many of the time.  Divorce and substance abuse issues often destroy family restaurants.  Many restaurants with a long run just get tired and too dull and familiar, and people just move on.  Again, restaurants go out of business.  At this point I don't see any evidence that it is an East 4th "thing". If any area is a concern to me is the Chagrin and Chagrin Highlands area.  Lots of closures the past two years yet chains keep pouring in.  

Thank you for the insight, this is helpful.  That said, are you surprised the Chinato space is still vacant or are there more common times for new restaurants  to go in?

3 hours ago, BelievelandD1 said:

I thought about this as well. But even then you don’t want a city that relies on its crappy basketball team to stay afloat. Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse does a good job of getting crowds down there multiple times per week. Our downtown population has grown.  I think if greenhouse wanted this to work it could continue.  10 years is waaaaayyyy past the expected life of a restaurant... I’m not concerned about East 4th as an entertainment district. Still several big anchors.  I’d be more concerned about a michael Symon throwing in the towel due to his other priorities.  However, I think he has a local management team he knows and trusts and doesn’t need to be here to keep his places open 

 

The Cavs have to be factored into this discussion however.   I went to the NOLA game last week, arguably a big draw with Zion in town the first time.   I would estimate 20% of the seats were empty.   A competitive Cavs team brought out lots of corporate money and big wigs to games.  When they start losing, corporate seats start going to underlings and clients, who take the free seats and don't spend as much.

 

If you start talking razor-thin margins in the restaurant business, a decline in attendance at the arena will have a measurable effect on your business.  

I worked on East 4th- during Lebron years and non Lebron years.  The Cavs are not as much of an impact on the street as you'd think.   Some of the sports bars like Harry Buffalo and Winking Lizard do some business off of them.  But they're not even close to Indians games in terms of impact.

23 minutes ago, Ruken said:

Thank you for the insight, this is helpful.  That said, are you surprised the Chinato space is still vacant or are there more common times for new restaurants  to go in?

It is hard for me to say without knowing more facts.  Somebody mentioned Kaplan was having a landlord dispute.  If true, and those in the business are talking about  it, a possible new tenant may be cautious.  Maybe multiple interested parties have actually approached the landlord and are having similar issues as they try to negotiation terms of a lease.  Again just speculating.  This is a prime spot (especially if Nucleus happens) and there has to be a lot of interest.  Perhaps the landlord only wants a fine dining restaurant and he is only being approached by groups who want to open a sports themed bar.  Again speculation.  It is a big space and the build out will cost a pretty penny (no body wants to keep the decor of a previous tenant, especially a higher end celeb type chef/owner).  Most higher ends chefs will even want to gut and re-configure a perfectly good kitchen set up since in their mind it (true or not) does not meet their style of cooking and service.  Again it is important spot but an expensive one for many reasons.  I would not be surprised if Nucleus happens we see a mid/upper range national chain with deep pockets come in.  Cleveland really does not have a lot of national chains downtown compared to other cities.

14 minutes ago, X said:

I worked on East 4th- during Lebron years and non Lebron years.  The Cavs are not as much of an impact on the street as you'd think.   Some of the sports bars like Harry Buffalo and Winking Lizard do some business off of them.  But they're not even close to Indians games in terms of impact.

 

Indians attendance has dropped 300K+ in the last 3 seasons.    

 

 

even the decrease in indians attendance to like 22K is 10% than Rocket Mortgage holds for sellouts.  Plus there are twice as many games.  Plus summer is patio season, which is more revenue.  

2 minutes ago, BelievelandD1 said:

even the decrease in indians attendance to like 22K is 10% than Rocket Mortgage holds for sellouts.  Plus there are twice as many games.  Plus summer is patio season, which is more revenue.  

 

If Gateway had never been built and the Cavs were in Richfield and the Indians moved away, do you think it would still be "patio season" on E 4th?     Only if you can buy wigs or pawn some old jewelry on a patio.... 

On 2/5/2020 at 10:39 PM, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Chinato's and now this? WTF is going on? I'm honestly getting worried about E4 if another business closes on that street. To be blunt, I hope the panhandling isn't driving people away and causing less patrons to visit the places on E4. I mean, it's frankly becoming a bit much with them. 

I will never understand the panhandling complaint when it comes to busy urban environments. It comes with the territory when there are 100,000 plus people Downtown everyday. Those people have money and the panhandlers have very little so they'll be there. IMO that speaks more towards the problems with the country than anything. Panhandlers in city Downtowns are like Hobo's on the freight lines it's ingrained in Urban culture and people know that. Tell them no and keep moving, I do it all the time. 

Edited February 7, 20205 yr by MyPhoneDead
I added periods because I ran out of breath reading it.

3 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

Panhandlers in city Downtowns are like Hobo's on the freight lines it's ingrained in Urban culture and people know that. Tell them no and keep moving, I do it all the time. 

 

although occasionally they lash out violently at someone who ignores or talks back to them. A lot of these people are mentally ill. Ultimately it's a quality of life issue.

Edited February 7, 20205 yr by eastvillagedon

8 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

I will never understand the panhandling complaint when it comes to busy urban environments. It comes with the territory when there are 100,000 plus people Downtown everyday. Those people have money and the panhandlers have very little so they'll be there. IMO that speaks more towards the problems with the country than anything. Panhandlers in city Downtowns are like Hobo's on the freight lines it's ingrained in Urban culture and people know that. Tell them no and keep moving, I do it all the time. 

Look it doesn't keep me away, considering I live downtown. But it definately hurts trying to get suburbanites to atleast visit E4 and patronize the restaurants. It's honestly not fun when they follow you after you say no. It hasn't kept me away, but I wouldn't be shocked if it keeps a couple in Brecksville visiting downtown.

https://m.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2020/02/09/dante-boccuzzi-to-open-goma-in-former-chinato-space-on-e-4th-street

  

12 minutes ago, GISguy said:

https://m.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2020/02/09/dante-boccuzzi-to-open-goma-in-former-chinato-space-on-e-4th-street

An awesome replacement! Excited for Bocuzzi to finally be on East 4th street.

Edited February 9, 20205 yr by downtownjoe

Awesome news! Finally a great sushi spot downtown.

NICE. big win for the street. I’m hopeful Greenhouse will be filled with something great as well. With this and the pizza spot from Citizen Pie I think E. 4th will be just fine. Hopefully the Hodges spot can get filled soon. 

9 minutes ago, mrclifton88 said:

NICE. big win for the street. I’m hopeful Greenhouse will be filled with something great as well. With this and the pizza spot from Citizen Pie I think E. 4th will be just fine. Hopefully the Hodges spot can get filled soon. 

Yea both of these add a nice variety to the street. 

I am wondering as successful as Greenhouse is that someone will come in and take it over. It happened when Crop Bistro was in trouble. Tony George and partners rescued it.  The place makes too much money, just badly managed.

1 hour ago, freethink said:

I am wondering as successful as Greenhouse is that someone will come in and take it over. It happened when Crop Bistro was in trouble. Tony George and partners rescued it.  The place makes too much money, just badly managed.

Agreed. Was my favorite downtown spot. Was just in there a couple weeks ago and had an amazing meal and experience. The rooftop bar was always a great Tribe game pregame spot. I hope it gets saved.

13 hours ago, marty15 said:

Awesome news! Finally another great sushi spot downtown.

 

Fixed that for you ? Sushi 86 has been around for 20 years.

 

Seriously though, glad to see this prime space is going to occupied again.

Glad to see Dante is opening a restaurant downtown. 
In regards to Greenhouse, the quality seemed to dip a bit over the last year. Going to miss that roof deck in the summer, hopefully someone can pick it up and make something work there.

19 hours ago, GISguy said:

https://m.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2020/02/09/dante-boccuzzi-to-open-goma-in-former-chinato-space-on-e-4th-street

Wait is it really his first Downtown restaurant? The flats don't count as Downtown?

^No, that Flats are NOT Downtown. The flats are the valley BELOW downtown and lie between Downtown and the west side. The western-most Downtown Street is W. 9. Both sides are Downtown. Once you begin to descend the hill towards the river, you're in the Flats.

The City of Cleveland considers everything to river to be Downtown. West Bank of Flats is Ohio City. 

6 minutes ago, freefourur said:

The City of Cleveland considers everything to river to be Downtown. West Bank of Flats is Ohio City. 

 

That's not true. For city planning purposes, the city created SPA's for planning and data comparisons. You're talking about SPA boundaries. Not real 'places'. Little Italy is a real place, but its part of "University" for planning purposes. University Circle is a real place, but viewing only through SPAs also doesn't exist. Its called "University". But in terms of real neighborhoods/places, Downtown ends at W. 9. Otherwise, under your definitions, the Flats don't even exist. 

Edited February 10, 20205 yr by Pugu

The Flats is a district just like Playhouse Square. The Flats straddles two neighborhoods while PHS is just one. 

The Flats is a place that has various parts East Bank is different than West Bank and both are different than the flats that are south of, say the Lorain-Carnegie parallel. I think you are confusing SPA's with "neighborhoods". they kindof align but don't really. Certainly "Little Italy" is a neighborhood. Yet it's not an SPA. Certainly the FLATS exist, yet its not part of Downtown. Playhouse Square is a neighborhood within Downtown, just as is the Warehouse District or Gateway.

 

I always enjoy a good discussion of neighborhood boundaries, but, before this convo gets cut, we do have a separate thread for that ?