On 1/18/2019 at 12:30 PM, edale said:

 

How do you define masculinity, then?

 

The American Psychological Association has lately issued a report that says "traditional masculinity marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance, and aggression is, on the whole, harmful." They also recommend how to remedy this 'pathological condition.' 

 

https://www.apa.org/about/policy/boys-men-practice-guidelines.pdf

The APA has lost their mind to politics.

On 1/18/2019 at 11:29 AM, edale said:

Liberals don't have control of the media. If they did, the major networks would have refused to air Trump's recent address on the shut down and border security, like they did when Obama wanted to make a similar immigration related address. 

Was the government shut down then?

On 1/18/2019 at 1:11 PM, jmecklenborg said:

 

 

Both of my grandmas, my mom, and several other women in my family voted for Trump.  Hell, my mom went to the inauguration and even paid to go to some luncheon that Elaine Chao spoke at.  Hillary making fun of housewives back in 1994 or whenever that was made her the lifelong enemy of many women.  They totally and completely hate being told how to think and live their lives by Hillary and her people. 

 

Stop and think about this.  Everyone out there talking about how offensive Trump was and is toward women (and he is) doesn't get that Hillary's remarks were MORE OFFENSIVE to a lot of women. 

 

And HRC recently opined that women voted for trump because “their men” did...not to mention the “all blacks look alike”  attempt at a “joke”. Maybe the 2008 Democrats were right when they accused her (and Bill) of being a racist.

 

Bill Clinton is a top player in toxic masculinity though.

Edited January 21, 20196 yr by Oxford19

On 1/16/2019 at 9:34 AM, freefourur said:

In your case Yabo, I think the parent overreacted to what you told the athletes.  I think if you were coaching a girls sports team you would give them the same advice and it is good advice. 

But would hear about it even more perhaps. What’s truly alarming is that a coach's discussion of injury v hurt somehow relates to a young boy being a victim of “manliness”.

 

This all becomes very open ended

Edited January 21, 20196 yr by Oxford19
Typo

For me, the biggest problem is that one advertisement thinks it is going to get a relatively small group of men to change their ways by generalizing their bad actions to half the population. How many men who cat call, or bully, or do any of these stupid behaviors will change because of this commercial? How many will realize "oh my god, THIS is what the world thinks of me? I shall renounce everything I have thought my whole life and become Bob Ross."

 

Is a commercial even an appropriate place to have this talk? Talk about it in school, in HR meetings, a place of worship, around a dining room table, even this thread is a great place for it.

 

It's like the endless reminders to fasten your seat belts; if you don't at this point it is because you consciously choose not to. Can you smoke on an airplane? Havent been able to in the memory of my life (30 + years) but we are still told on EVERY......SINGLE.....FLIGHT. Don't cat call a woman? Thanks gilette for reminding me not to!

 

Instead of the gilette commercial, what of they spent the million or so dollars on the distinguished geneltman club, an after school group committed to teaching young, impressionable males how to not be d!cks.

http://www.dgcmentor.org

 

Would anyone have a problem with that? 

Just now, originaljbw said:

For me, the biggest problem is that one advertisement thinks it is going to get a relatively small group of men to change their ways by generalizing their bad actions to half the population. How many men who cat call, or bully, or do any of these stupid behaviors will change because of this commercial? How many will realize "oh my god, THIS is what the world thinks of me? I shall renounce everything I have thought my whole life and become Bob Ross."

 

Is a commercial even an appropriate place to have this talk? Talk about it in school, in HR meetings, a place of worship, around a dining room table, even this thread is a great place for it.

 

It's like the endless reminders to fasten your seat belts; if you don't at this point it is because you consciously choose not to. Can you smoke on an airplane? Havent been able to in the memory of my life (30 + years) but we are still told on EVERY......SINGLE.....FLIGHT. Don't cat call a woman? Thanks gilette for reminding me not to!

 

Instead of the gilette commercial, what of they spent the million or so dollars on the distinguished geneltman club, an after school group committed to teaching young, impressionable males how to not be d!cks.

http://www.dgcmentor.org

 

Would anyone have a problem with that? 

 

This might encourage men who blow it off to do something about and raise their children properly. Most campaigns to change behavior have come through advertising. That's pretty much how advertising works. 

So serious question: what product advertisement has caused you to change how you live your life or view the world?

When you say it will encourage men who blow it off to raise their offspring differently... how? If they already don't care enough to raise children to view women as people, how is a razor blade commercial going to change that?

 

We all know or at least have heard of the crazy old racist uncle/grandfather. How did their children turn out? Was it because the old racists raised them 'do as I say not as I do' or because of the influences of teachers, coaches, clergy, or other adult figures in society? 

2 minutes ago, originaljbw said:

So serious question: what product advertisement has caused you to change how you live your life or view the world?

When you say it will encourage men who blow it off to raise their offspring differently... how? If they already don't care enough to raise children to view women as people, how is a razor blade commercial going to change that?

 

We all know or at least have heard of the crazy old racist uncle/grandfather. How did their children turn out? Was it because the old racists raised them 'do as I say not as I do' or because of the influences of teachers, coaches, clergy, or other adult figures in society? 

Is it your contention that media campaigns don't change behavior?

The entire concept of Jaywalking being illegal was an ad campaign by the auto industry. Literally paid ads in newspapers that made crossing outside of crosswalks a negative thing.

 

I think anti-drunk driving commercials helped stem off some drunk driving. Basically telling you not to let your friends drive drunk.

 

I'm sure there are countless examples of ads changing people's behavior.

On 1/17/2019 at 12:16 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

 

I think there are just as many societal problems caused by ladylike behavior. As a parent of school age children, bullying is a big problem and the biggest issue is because people look at the wrong things. Most of the bullying problems in school are not caused by the traditional school yard bully beating someone up over their lunch money. It is not boys roughhousing like it was 30 years ago. The vast problem with bullying, and many experts will point out, occurs between the girls. This would be a perfect example of toxic femininity. Society has focused the bullying efforts almost exclusively on boys because it is open and obvious, but the worst forms of bullying have been done by the girls

 

The Womens' March didn't last long without discord and infighting.  A case of girls will be girls or toxic femininity?

 

I doubt movies like Mean Girls are fiction based.

Any parent with school aged children at least middle school through 10th grade will often be aware of the viciousness of young girls and how often many young male acts of bullying often have a young girl behind the scenes heavily influencing the situation.

4 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Any parent with school aged children at least middle school through 10th grade will often be aware of the viciousness of young girls and how often many young male acts of bullying often have a young girl behind the scenes heavily influencing the situation.

 

This is a fact.

 

My fiance went to Miami of Ohio - terrific school, beautiful campus - but we always talk about how if we have a daughter, we would discourage her from going there. To be a girl in some HS/college campuses is BRUTAL and, as you point out, often driven by other girls. 

11 hours ago, Oxford19 said:

The Womens' March didn't last long without discord and infighting.  A case of girls will be girls or toxic femininity?

 

I doubt movies like Mean Girls are fiction based.

Why dont we keep this thread on the top9c at hand and discuss what you think is toxic femininity somewhere else.  This really just seems like a deflection.

Hard to police that boundary because one of the counterarguments advanced is that toxic behavior is not inherently gendered.  Should we let that argument get airtime but not the possibility of toxic femininity (so we get the full spectrum of male-gendered, female-gendered, and non-gendered toxic behavior and where on any of those spectra any given manifestation of antisocial behavior falls)?

23 hours ago, originaljbw said:

For me, the biggest problem is that one advertisement thinks it is going to get a relatively small group of men to change their ways by generalizing their bad actions to half the population. How many men who cat call, or bully, or do any of these stupid behaviors will change because of this commercial? How many will realize "oh my god, THIS is what the world thinks of me? I shall renounce everything I have thought my whole life and become Bob Ross."

 

(1) It didn't generalize the actions to half the population.  We've been over that numerous times in this thread.

 

(2) It may change a few of the bad apples' behavior, but more than likely it is meant to raise awareness to the men who don't support this but idly stand by and watch it happen so that they can be more active in trying to prevent it or address it when they see it happening.

15 minutes ago, Gramarye said:

Hard to police that boundary because one of the counterarguments advanced is that toxic behavior is not inherently gendered.  Should we let that argument get airtime but not the possibility of toxic femininity (so we get the full spectrum of male-gendered, female-gendered, and non-gendered toxic behavior and where on any of those spectra any given manifestation of antisocial behavior falls)?

The problem is that some people are completely unwilling to discuss toxic masculinity at all which happens to be the title of the thread. And the discussion of toxic femininity has been given air time and discussed by the rest of us 

On 1/18/2019 at 10:42 AM, jmecklenborg said:

 

 

The dilemma for feminists is that women of all races crowd the dance floor for music that is explicitly demeaning to women.  Most of the music of this type has come out of hip-hop since the appearance of 2 Live Crew and the transition of the genre to gangster around 1990.  

 

Gillette should include a ''father'' or some other male dissuading a young male from listening to rap or hip hop music. 

 

To have a ''toxic masculinity'' discussion and how to remedy it without including a ban on the misogynistic, hateful, and toxic masculinity garbage from these ''street'' artists is misplaced.

 

Quote

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by Oxford19

Better yet, Gillette could include for the Super Bowl commercial perhaps a young male listening to current national criminal reform leader Mill Meek, say perhaps his tune ''F**k B*itches Get Money'' and have some older male turn it off and throw it in the garbage.  Chances are though that the ''adult'' portrayed is listening to and enjoying the same garbage.  Going even further, the females in this young male's life are also into this same garbage.

 

Of course this commercial would run well after the playing of our controversial national anthem.

 

It's time to get rid of this hateful and violent music infecting our culture with toxic masculinity.  

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by Oxford19

1 hour ago, freefourur said:

The problem is that some people are completely unwilling to discuss toxic masculinity at all which happens to be the title of the thread. And the discussion of toxic femininity has been given air time and discussed by the rest of us 

 

At this point what else is there to discuss?

23 hours ago, freefourur said:

Is it your contention that media campaigns don't change behavior?

Media campaigns can and have changed behavior.  

 

We need a media campaign to ban rap, hip hop, and other music containing violent, misogynist, and other hateful language.  I mean if ''Baby It's Cold Outside'' has been or is in the process of being banned while Mill Meek's "F**k B*tches Get Money'' isn't, why shouldn't the vile rap music, for example, be banned?

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by Oxford19

1 minute ago, Oxford19 said:

Media campaigns can and have changed behavior.  

 

We need a media campaign to ban rap, hip hop, and other music containing violent, misogynist, and other hateful language.  I mean if ''Baby It's Cold Outside'' has been or is in the process of being banned while Mill Meek's "F**k B*tches Get Money'' isn't, why shouldn't the vile rap music, for example, be banned?

So you are anti 1A? Weird 

6 minutes ago, freefourur said:

So you are anti 1A? Weird 

 

He does actually raise an interesting point in that, as far as I know, rap lyrics are much less the subject of feminist critique than antiquated lyrics. Future's new album literally references sticking digits in body parts in public... and that's arguably the cleanest track on the album. 

 

I don't know if feminists give them a pass because they think they already come from marginalized backgrounds? Or maybe they don't get a pass and I'm just not paying attention closely enough. 

2 minutes ago, YABO713 said:

 

He does actually raise an interesting point in that, as far as I know, rap lyrics are much less the subject of feminist critique than antiquated lyrics. Future's new album literally references sticking digits in body parts in public... and that's arguably the cleanest track on the album. 

 

I don't know if feminists give them a pass because they think they already come from marginalized backgrounds? Or maybe they don't get a pass and I'm just not paying attention closely enough. 

There's a ton of feminist critique of rap music. 

Just now, freefourur said:

There's a ton of feminist critique of rap music. 

So what's the problem with raising it here if the discussion is toxic masculinity.  Rap music certainly contributes to it.

 

Never hear much about the feminist critique of rap music but as far as I know, the feminist critique for some reason was heavy on "Baby It's Cold Outside'' to the point of banning.  Other dangerous music like The Vogues 1960s hit "Turn Around, Look at Me'' is under fire for being ''stalker, creepy'', so yes, the feminists are up in arms about music from at least the 1940s-1960s.  

 

Pornography as well was a big topic of critique for feminists.  Yet, for some reason, after Stormy Daniels appeared on the scene, suddenly, being a female porn star was considered ''a woman doing her thing'' and touted around on mainstream media.

 

Btw, have no idea what 1A is...

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by Oxford19

9 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

 

 

Btw, have no idea what 1A is...

 

Clearly... if you're suggesting bans on artistic expression lol

 

 

1st Amendment

Just now, YABO713 said:

 

Clearly... if you're suggesting bans on artistic expression lol

 

 

1st Amendment

Oh, ok, so don't recall anyone objecting to banning the artistic expression of Baby It's Cold Outside. So, artistic expression should protect ''F**k B*tches Get Money'' and not "Baby It's Cold Outside''.

 

Interesting that you have a problem with one but not the other as you raise the ''artistic expression'' protection of the "1A''...lol...guess I'm not down with the hip UO lingo.

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by Oxford19

Just now, Oxford19 said:

It's all very hypocritical as ''artistic expression'' will apply to some but not all, in this case, music. 

 

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by Oxford19

13 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

Oh, ok, so don't recall anyone objecting to banning the artistic expression of Baby It's Cold Outside. So, artistic expression should protect ''F**k B*tches Get Money'' and not "Baby It's Cold Outside''.

 

Interesting that you have a problem with one but not the other as you raise the ''artistic expression'' protection of the "1A''...lol...guess I'm not down with the hip UO lingo.

 

False equivalency.  Nobody is "banning" Baby, It's Cold Outside.  Certain privately owned radio stations have chosen to stop playing it, but it's certainly not illegal to do so.

 

You're totally free to start your own radio station and play Baby, It's Cold Outside 24/7/365.  It would probably be a hit among Trumpies, at least until the next "War on Christmas outrage" comes along and they all move on from your radio station.

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by jam40jeff

I think there is also a sense of intention in all of these rap examples. Rap music is often characterized by these types of lyrics. Everyone is very aware of what they are saying, but a lot of (definitely not all of) these artists don't do the things they rap about.

 

Other music is not meant to be misogynistic or problematic. It's only after people analyze the lyrics and point out some that are conditioning people to act in certain ways (especially young men) that these issues get any attention. This can include not taking "no" for and answer from women. Movies and music do this all the time, and depict it as normal or accepted behavior to just keep pestering someone until they cave and just say yes. There are so many "little" things men do that make women uncomfortable or feel threatened that men may not realize is happening.

I think, in general, rap music is interpreted as an artistic expression of a certain lifestyle that the artist may not actually exhibit in real life. But I agree that there are still problems in rap music, especially with the smaller details in the music that normalizes bad behavior. No one listening to rap music thinks it's acceptable to shoot up a bank or deal drugs, or whatever, but it can still condition people to treat women poorly through some lyrics.

 

Most of this isn't black and white. The biggest issue most people fail to realize is the normalization of predatory or misogynistic behavior through music, movies, television, porn, etc that depicts bad behaviors as the path to success or love. Not accepting "no" for an answer is one of the biggest problems in movies. The men are conditioned to never give up and just keep pursuing someone, even after they've made it abundantly clear they aren't interested.

Just now, jam40jeff said:

 

False equivalency.  Nobody is "banning" Baby, It's Cold Outside.  Certain privately owned radio stations have chosen to stop playing it, but it's certainly not illegal to do so.

It's also a great place to start banning rap music.  Of course its protected, but a ban rap music movement can be done by choice of course.  

 

More than odd that in the context of a toxic masculinity thread, the issue related to rap music lyrics explicitly degrading women is a touchy topic.

Just now, ryanlammi said:

I think there is also a sense of intention in all of these rap examples. Rap music is often characterized by these types of lyrics. Everyone is very aware of what they are saying, but a lot of (definitely not all of) these artists don't do the things they rap about.

 

Other music is not meant to be misogynistic or problematic. It's only after people analyze the lyrics and point out some that are conditioning people to act in certain ways (especially young men) that these issues get any attention. This can include not taking "no" for and answer from women. Movies and music do this all the time, and depict it as normal or accepted behavior to just keep pestering someone until they cave and just say yes. There are so many "little" things men do that make women uncomfortable or feel threatened that men may not realize is happening.

I think, in general, rap music is interpreted as an artistic expression of a certain lifestyle that the artist may not actually exhibit in real life. But I agree that there are still problems in rap music, especially with the smaller details in the music that normalizes bad behavior. No one listening to rap music thinks it's acceptable to shoot up a bank or deal drugs, or whatever, but it can still condition people to treat women poorly through some lyrics.

 

Most of this isn't black and white. The biggest issue most people fail to realize is the normalization of predatory or misogynistic behavior through music, movies, television, porn, etc that depicts bad behaviors as the path to success or love. Not accepting "no" for an answer is one of the biggest problems in movies. The men are conditioned to never give up and just keep pursuing someone, even after they've made it abundantly clear they aren't interested.

The problem isn't with the actual rap ''artists'', although some do live out these lyrics, it's the ramifications on our culture generally and the young african american community in particular.

 

We have young kids listening to this vile, hateful, and violent stuff.  Don't be so quick to dismiss that ''no one listening to rap music thinks it's acceptable'' to commit criminal acts when you're allowing young kids to have access to this.

21 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

Oh, ok, so don't recall anyone objecting to banning the artistic expression of Baby It's Cold Outside. So, artistic expression should protect ''F**k B*tches Get Money'' and not "Baby It's Cold Outside''.

 

Interesting that you have a problem with one but not the other as you raise the ''artistic expression'' protection of the "1A''...lol...guess I'm not down with the hip UO lingo.

 

I literally spent two days on here roasting people for taking issue with "Baby It's Cold Outside"

 

As far as I'm concerned, the 1st Amendment protects the marketplace of ideas - if you don't like what you hear, buy something else - with the limited exceptions as outlined by SCOTUS.

 

Nonetheless, this is a toxic masculinity thread, not a 1a thread. So let's get back to it. 

Just now, YABO713 said:

 

I literally spent two days on here roasting people for taking issue with "Baby It's Cold Outside"

 

As far as I'm concerned, the 1st Amendment protects the marketplace of ideas - if you don't like what you hear, buy something else - with the limited exceptions as outlined by SCOTUS.

 

Nonetheless, this is a toxic masculinity thread, not a 1a thread. So let's get back to it. 

By ''banning'' rap music I didn't mean for the government to do it, more as you state: buy something else and have radio stations etc ban it. I didn't bring up the ''1A'' btw but the 1st Amendment is being played with selectively in the U.S. today.  The "1A'' also protects speech that some find subjectively offensive. Anyway....

 

So back on topic, there should be a ''boycott'' and ''banning'' of rap music movement; that way there's none of those pesky constitutional amendments brought up here.  No rap music at school events, dances, etc.  A great way to help in ending toxic masculinity.

 

Meanwhile, Meek Mill is the musical guest on SNL this weekend.

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by Oxford19

13 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

Oh, ok, so don't recall anyone objecting to banning the artistic expression of Baby It's Cold Outside. So, artistic expression should protect ''F**k B*tches Get Money'' and not "Baby It's Cold Outside''.

 

Interesting that you have a problem with one but not the other as you raise the ''artistic expression'' protection of the "1A''...lol...guess I'm not down with the hip UO lingo.

I dont support bans of any kind. I do support private businesses airing or not airing whatever they want.

Rap music is often criticized for it's lyrics. I'm not sure where people get the idea that it isn't.  I also wonder other genres aren't being called out too.  It's almost like the same group of people that don't want to discuss issues with men also don't want to discuss issues that deal with music preferred by a white audience.

Just now, freefourur said:

I dont support bans of any kind. I do support private businesses airing or not airing whatever they want.

That's fine but the public needs to put pressure on a private or public business to air or not air, produce, and promote the garbage lyrics of rap music.  Boycotting is the most effective method as we all know.

Just now, Oxford19 said:

That's fine but the public needs to put pressure on a private or public business to air or not air, produce, and promote the garbage lyrics of rap music.  Boycotting is the most effective method as we all know.

knock yourself out.  start the boycott.

Just now, freefourur said:

Rap music is often criticized for it's lyrics. I'm not sure where people get the idea that it isn't.  I also wonder other genres aren't being called out too.  It's almost like the same group of people that don't want to discuss issues with men also don't want to discuss issues that deal with music preferred by a white audience.

Well, holiday music came under fire recently and I mentioned rap music.  

 

Problem is, anyone can read into all kinds of music lyrics.  Other problem is, a plain reading of rap music lyrics is pretty straightforward "sick ya b*tch all up on my d**k''...in little kids ears.

7 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Rap music is often criticized for it's lyrics. I'm not sure where people get the idea that it isn't.  I also wonder other genres aren't being called out too.  It's almost like the same group of people that don't want to discuss issues with men also don't want to discuss issues that deal with music preferred by a white audience.

 

Bro-country comes to mind...

Just now, freefourur said:

knock yourself out.  start the boycott.

Will you join and support it?

Just now, jam40jeff said:

 

Bro-country comes to mind...

Ok, great, bring it in as well bro...

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by Oxford19

31 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

It's also a great place to start banning rap music.  Of course its protected, but a ban rap music movement can be done by choice of course.  

 

More than odd that in the context of a toxic masculinity thread, the issue related to rap music lyrics explicitly degrading women is a touchy topic.

 

I said your comparison was a false equivalency, not that rap music is beyond criticism.  In fact, it faces plenty.

1 minute ago, jam40jeff said:

 

I said your comparison was a false equivalency, not that rap music is beyond criticism.  In fact, it faces plenty.

Rap music is already heavily censored on commercial radio and it is criticized frequently.

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by freefourur

2 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

Will you join and support it?

 

How do you know who listens to which music?

 

There's also plenty of great rap music out there that's not misogynistic.

Edited January 24, 20196 yr by jam40jeff

2 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

Will you join and support it?

nope.  I don't get involved in boycotts.

Just now, freefourur said:

Rap music is already heavily censored on commercial radio and it is criticized frequently.

Of course it is, you have heard some of the lyrics I'm sure.

 

Just now, jam40jeff said:

 

How do you know who listens to which music?

 

There's also plenty of great rap music out there that's not misogynistic.

...and yet no a beep from all the feminists, progressives, or other assorted SJWs about banning or boycotting SNL this weekend as Meek Mill performs.  

 

It's interesting.

 

2 minutes ago, Oxford19 said:

...and yet no a beep from all the feminists, progressives, or other assorted SJWs about banning or boycotting SNL this weekend as Meek Mill performs.  

 

It's interesting.

 

I barely know who Meek Mill is and have no idea who is performing on SNL nor do I care. Great whataboutism tough.