21 minutes ago, CincyIntheKnow said:

Think along the lines of 4th and Race. 

 

I have had the mild hunch for the past 2-3 years that many mid-sized cities are going to experience a building boom in the 2020s similar to what Nashville experienced between 2015 and 2020.  Even as urban Nashville's prices have become superheated, several malls have been abandoned and replaced by unimpressive mixed-use developments.  The banks are not lending in the suburbs there or here.  I think that we're going to see Cincinnati's 1970s-1990s suburbs along I-275 continue a relative decline compared to the downtown and city neighborhoods along I-71.  

 

Meanwhile, Cincinnati's once limitless supply of "starter" homes in first-ring suburbs is back to 2007 prices after their 2009-2018 collapse.  The prices are getting so high in many mediocre neighborhoods (i.e. Mt. Airy) that we will see more and more owner-occupants replace single-family homes that have been rentals for the past ten years.  This will put increased pressure on the rental market and motivate the construction of more and more large apartment buildings inside the city limits.    

 

Also, we're starting to see the prices of 1960s apartments that were turned into condos in 2005 starting to come back.  For example, "condos" along Harrison Ave. and the Lehman hill that were selling for $20,000 in 2017 are back to $60-80k.  There, like with small homes in those neighborhoods, we're seeing rental condos turning back into owner-occupied condos.  

 

Almost every large prewar building in Downtown Cincinnati has been renovated out of its original use into residential or hotel.  With almost nothing left to renovate we will see many new projects on parking lots in the next 10 years.  The downtown might be unrecognizable by 2030.  Nashville had hardly any old buildings as compared to ours so they went to new construction on a large scale out of necessity.   

19 minutes ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

I have had the mild hunch for the past 2-3 years that many mid-sized cities are going to experience a building boom in the 2020s similar to what Nashville experienced between 2015 and 2020.  Even as urban Nashville's prices have become superheated, several malls have been abandoned and replaced by unimpressive mixed-use developments.  The banks are not lending in the suburbs there or here.  I think that we're going to see Cincinnati's 1970s-1990s suburbs along I-275 continue a relative decline compared to the downtown and city neighborhoods along I-71.

 

Welcome to the party, pal, most other cities have suburbs that are in bad shape. The lack of suburban decline in Cincinnati warped people's minds into thinking suburbia could do no wrong. It's like "just have them drive through Middletown" but they don't do it.

1 hour ago, CincyIntheKnow said:

Rumor has it we are looking at a future substantial development for this site.  Think along the lines of 4th and Race.  They are still in property acquisition phase, but expect this to be the next 3CDC focus after Court St.

Having lived right by here for the last 4 years, I can confirm it's one of the worst spots downtown.  The combination of this building which includes a sketchy mini mart, the library, the empty Garfield Suites, the park and three surface lots all combined to make this an unfriendly place to walk through.  

 

Do you think 3CDC is trying to get the surface lot just south of this building?  Between this building and the three surface lots there is plenty of space to develop something on, or hopefully two developments.  Putting more residents here and more people on the street would greatly help this small not so great part of downtown, and it would bridge the gap between fountain square and court st. 

^ But they play classical music on the sidewalk!  How is that anything but good?  ?

28 minutes ago, GCrites80s said:

The lack of suburban decline in Cincinnati

 

It's fairly rough between Tri-County Mall and Northgate Mall.  I mean, it was a little rough over by Tri-County way back when I was in high school.  One time I hung out after school with some "bad" girls in one of those slab houses near Princeton Bowl.  They were like the female Beavis and Butthead.  No parents around, ever.   

On 10/7/2020 at 4:50 PM, CincyIntheKnow said:

Rumor has it we are looking at a future substantial development for this site.  

 

Several questions come to mind:

 

-Will the development be a "Cincinnati Special" garage with apartments above, or one or more parking lite mid-rises like 8th and Main?

 

-There are two announced developments nearby with little progress- the Garfield Suites building (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/09/05/exclusive-downtown-cincinnati-hotel-converting-to.html) and the lot at Garfield and Race St. (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/02/15/exclusive-woman-owned-firm-to-develop-downtown.html).  Would this new development help these along?  Would a new garage help or is one even needed with Garfield Place Garage nearby?

 

-What would the the fate of the alleys be with this project?

 

-How would this affect/be affected by Vine Street two-way conversion?

 

I'd like to see at least 500 residential units be added to the area in red below:

 

 

^(personal preference would be for 8th and Main style buildings with smaller footprints that preserved some of the alleyways, if possible. Also would be neat if the Ruthven passenger pigeon mural was left exposed with some kind of activated alley or restaurant patio next to it )

Edited October 9, 20204 yr by thebillshark

On 10/7/2020 at 4:50 PM, GCrites80s said:

 

Welcome to the party, pal, most other cities have suburbs that are in bad shape. The lack of suburban decline in Cincinnati warped people's minds into thinking suburbia could do no wrong. It's like "just have them drive through Middletown" but they don't do it.

 

One day Colerain will complete its transition into being Cincinnati's Trotwood and maybe they'll finally wise up. Or they'll just keep blaming "Democrats" for "pushing the Section 8 people" out there. 

 

I still don't know who these people are who willingly live in Western Hills, but they apparently exist.

On 10/9/2020 at 8:14 AM, thebillshark said:

 

Several questions come to mind:

 

-Will the development be a "Cincinnati Special" garage with apartments above, or one or more parking lite mid-rises like 8th and Main?

 

-There are two announced developments nearby with little progress- the Garfield Suites building (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2015/09/05/exclusive-downtown-cincinnati-hotel-converting-to.html) and the lot at Garfield and Race St. (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/02/15/exclusive-woman-owned-firm-to-develop-downtown.html).  Would this new development help these along?  Would a new garage help or is one even needed with Garfield Place Garage nearby?

 

-What would the the fate of the alleys be with this project?

 

-How would this affect/be affected by Vine Street two-way conversion?

 

I'd like to see at least 500 residential units be added to the area in red below:

 

 

Educated guesses based on info I am hearing...

 

-3CDC as developer, so you know that parking (big income generator for them) will be involved.

-My understanding is that Garfield will be treated as the new Court St. (Think development plan rather than individual project)

-Don't get too attached to any developable land

-Vine alterations would have no bearing, but I am hearing rumors of Garfield alteration

-That seems reasonable

5 minutes ago, CincyIntheKnow said:

Educated guesses based on info I am hearing...

 

-3CDC as developer, so you know that parking (big income generator for them) will be involved.

-My understanding is that Garfield will be treated as the new Court St. (Think development plan rather than individual project)

-Don't get too attached to any developable land

-Vine alterations would have no bearing, but I am hearing rumors of Garfield alteration

-That seems reasonable

For ‘Garfield alteration’ do you mean 8th street or just the Piatt Park area? For that one block the urbanism actually seems pretty solid so I’d be surprised if they felt a priority was renewing the street scape.

Garfield Place / Piatt Park actually looks pretty good, so I don't think it needs a new streetscape like Court Street does. However there is a lot of loitering and it seems to be one of the more dangerous areas of the CBD currently. If 3CDC can master plan that area, redeveloping the blocks @thebillshark outlined in red above, and the Library moves forward with the redo of their downtown buildings (hopefully selecting the option that adds housing along Walnut), it could really transform the entire "north central" part of the CBD. The goal should be to make Vine Street (and adjacent spaces like Piatt Park and Court Street) feel like one vibrant corridor all the way from Fountain Square to OTR.

12 minutes ago, taestell said:

The goal should be to make Vine Street (and adjacent spaces like Piatt Park and Court Street) feel like one vibrant corridor all the way from Fountain Square to OTR.

 

100 years ago, and even 50 years ago, all of the north-south streets were packed with independently-owned stores and restaurants.  New York City's storefronts were still filled almost entirely by locally-owned businesses 20 years ago.

It amazes me that there used to be a near continuous street wall from downtown out Colerain Ave. all the way to the corner of Chase and Hamilton.

3 hours ago, taestell said:

Garfield Place / Piatt Park actually looks pretty good, so I don't think it needs a new streetscape like Court Street does. 

 I agree with this 100%, and I fear that any re-working of the streetscape would kill the really nice tunnel of trees affect you get along Piatt Park. I walk this way at least once a week to get to the building department even though it isn't the shortest route because its very pleasant in the summer under the shade of all those trees. Unlike Court street this is actually run by the parks department, so hopefully the trees and planting areas and even the weird post modern fountains could all remain in place and only the streets and sidewalks would be re-worked. 

 

As a side note; all the "loitering" that happens is directly related to the library and corner store next to the Garfield statue. All the rest of the benches and seating along the park are not the same young/rowdy crowd, and tends to be older folks, a few homeless people, dog walkers, people playing games or listening to music and during the covid shutdown a place for people to get haircuts. This is all normal for an urban park. While people do 'loiter' all day in the park along these benches you cold also make the argument that loitering in a park all day just means you are enjoying the park and that if the user group looked different it wouldn't be seen as an issue at all. The crowd that causes issues and violence is always at the end of the park with the vacant Garfield suites, closed library at night, corner market and surface parking lots which all add up to mean no eyes on the street and no accountability. The other end of Piatt has occupied apartment buildings and has never had any issues. 

It seems like Garfield would be a great option to be a pedestrian only plaza. Do any of the current buildings need vehicle traffic?
 

That is probably too radical of an idea for Cincinnati so another option would be to widen the sidewalks to allow more outside dining/shopping for the ground floor retail and/or expand the park.

6 minutes ago, Dev said:

It seems like Garfield would be a great option to be a pedestrian only plaza. Do any of the current buildings need vehicle traffic?
 

That is probably too radical of an idea for Cincinnati so another option would be to widen the sidewalks to allow more outside dining/shopping for the ground floor retail and/or expand the park.

 

Personally, I don't think fully pedestrianizing Garfield would provide much of a benefit. There is already a lot of pedestrian space, cars rarely drive on it as it is, and there aren't a lot of storefronts to activate the space. I think it's fine as is. Just need to fill in the vacant lots to make it more active and attractive.

11 minutes ago, Dev said:

It seems like Garfield would be a great option to be a pedestrian only plaza. Do any of the current buildings need vehicle traffic?
 

That is probably too radical of an idea for Cincinnati so another option would be to widen the sidewalks to allow more outside dining/shopping for the ground floor retail and/or expand the park.

With the Cincinnati Club, Phoenix, Gramercy apartments/parking garage, etc there really is not enough there to really offer any space for streetside businesses. There used to be the Shakespheare company there and the Blue Whisp had a spot for a while, but there really was not too much retail on that block. Mostly event space and apartment.

 

9 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Personally, I don't think fully pedestrianizing Garfield would provide much of a benefit. There is already a lot of pedestrian space, cars rarely drive on it as it is, and there aren't a lot of storefronts to activate the space. I think it's fine as is. Just need to fill in the vacant lots to make it more active and attractive.

 

Exactly.  You pedestrianize the narrowest and busiest streets, otherwise they become empty and foreboding. 

On 10/12/2020 at 9:56 AM, CincyIntheKnow said:

Educated guesses based on info I am hearing...

 

-3CDC as developer, so you know that parking (big income generator for them) will be involved.

-My understanding is that Garfield will be treated as the new Court St. (Think development plan rather than individual project)

-Don't get too attached to any developable land

-Vine alterations would have no bearing, but I am hearing rumors of Garfield alteration

-That seems reasonable

I thought more about it and would like to modify my opinion above. I can see where in this case preserving existing alleys as-is would limit the design of a new building and be difficult to secure and keep activated properly, so I understand if they are developed over. 

Seems like there is more room for a new garage where the lots are on the east side of Vine than there is on the west side of Vine. If they were able to get the lots and also acquire and demo the Hustler store building, they could build a new garage or development right up against the huge blank wall of 36 E 7th street- the first 14 stories of which is a parking garage with 720 spaces. (I wonder if a connection could be made to this garage even?) 

27 minutes ago, thebillshark said:

 I can see where in this case preserving existing alleys as-is would limit the design of a new building and be difficult to secure and keep activated properly, so I understand if they are developed over. 

Outside of garbage trucks, no one uses Oneida Alley between Vine and Walnut, however Oneida between Vine and Race is used to access parking behind LPK and a couple loading docks for 7th street facing buildings so I think the alley west of Vine will need to stay in some capacity or at least will have some push-back. 

According to this article (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/10/14/robbins-kelly-patterson-tucker-moving-its-downtown.html), Macy's is in the process of selling the building: "Bill Sherman, managing partner of Robbins, Kelly, Patterson & Tucker (RKPT), said the firm was forced to look for a new space as Macy’s Inc. is putting the building up for sale."

 

I don't know enough about these types of properties, but it puzzles me why the owner would "force" tenants out if they wanted to sell/market it as an office building, and/or assume a new buyer will occupy the entire building (which seems HIGHLY unlikely, considering how large the building is and how few businesses could occupy the entire building). If they assumed a new owner wanted to change it to non-office uses (like in the case of the Fourth & Walnut project), I suppose it would makes sense... but that implies the seller already knows that what that future buyer wants. Does anybody have any insight into this? It does not seem like it would be a good building for conversion to residential use, so I'm confused by what's motivating the landlord to force tenants out. 

^I believe there were only one or two tenants besides Macy's in the entire building.  Macy's owns and manages the property so I doubt they'd want to be stuck in a "ghost" building.  "Forced" might not have been the right word choice.  

 

As far as future plans, I did see a lobby/common area remodel plan but that was prior to Macy's announcing their exit.  I  assumed it was just a refresh for Macy's, as the main lobby is cramped and dated.  I'm not sure if they are proceeding with the remodel at this time.  

I just hope Fred and Gari's, Skyline, and the other retail tenants don't get kicked out during a potential remodel because they are staples in this part of downtown. They should all be safe, but the Kidd coffee might not be since they actually connect to the Macy's lobby. 

Edited October 15, 20204 yr by ucgrady

21 hours ago, ucgrady said:

I just hope Fred and Gari's, Skyline, and the other retail tenants don't get kicked out during a potential remodel because they are staples in this part of downtown. They should all be safe, but the Kidd coffee might not be since they actually connect to the Macy's lobby. 

 

The remodel plan I saw had Kidd Coffee included in it; however, I'm not sure how long they'd survive in an empty building since it has no street presence.  

 

If the hat shop can survive in Terrace Plaza for years as it crumbles around it, I assume the street level restaurants will be fine  

On 10/14/2020 at 2:56 PM, jwulsin said:

According to this article (https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/10/14/robbins-kelly-patterson-tucker-moving-its-downtown.html), Macy's is in the process of selling the building: "Bill Sherman, managing partner of Robbins, Kelly, Patterson & Tucker (RKPT), said the firm was forced to look for a new space as Macy’s Inc. is putting the building up for sale."

 

I don't know enough about these types of properties, but it puzzles me why the owner would "force" tenants out if they wanted to sell/market it as an office building, and/or assume a new buyer will occupy the entire building (which seems HIGHLY unlikely, considering how large the building is and how few businesses could occupy the entire building). If they assumed a new owner wanted to change it to non-office uses (like in the case of the Fourth & Walnut project), I suppose it would makes sense... but that implies the seller already knows that what that future buyer wants. Does anybody have any insight into this? It does not seem like it would be a good building for conversion to residential use, so I'm confused by what's motivating the landlord to force tenants out. 

Macy's may not be willing to offer them a long term lease that would allow for their respective growth planning either. If they work on a 2-3 year forecast and need to have certainty baked in, working off a month to month lease or 1 year lease is not conducive to running their business. That could be the case as well. 

1 hour ago, nicker66 said:

 

 

If the hat shop can survive in Terrace Plaza for years as it crumbles around it, I assume the street level restaurants will be fine  

Batsakes is a bit of a different beast than a coffee shop. People from around the country buy hats from there.

The Cincinnati Business Courier reported that Cincinnati Magazine is leaving its 10,000 square foot office space inside Carew Tower which it has occupied for the last 15 years, and looking for a new 5,000-6,000 square foot location elsewhere. I think this is a good example of the type of tenant that a new owner should try to attract to the former Macy's building. Renovate it into Class A office space and lure tenants away from older Class B/C office space downtown.

^If they do that, I'll definitely get my house in Indian Hill remodeled so that it looks just like the ones in the magazine.

Has anybody heard any updates on the Cincinnati Public Radio project, proposed for just north of City Hall? I think the sale of land passed City Council in March 2019: https://www.wvxu.org/post/cincinnati-public-radio-has-new-home#stream/0

 

Perhaps they're still in the fundraising phase? https://www.cinradio.org/buildingconnections/

 

 

On 10/6/2020 at 2:13 PM, Ucgrad2015 said:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/10/06/jean-robert-to-close-flagship-restaurant.html
 

Hopefully they find a new space in either Downtown or OTR. If I remember correctly the company that bought this also purchased the parking lot adjacent to this property. I’m excited to see what is planned for this site and hope that the parking lots across the street get redeveloped as well. 

Not sure if this has been shared yet but 3CDC acquired this property. 

25 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

Not sure if this has been shared yet but 3CDC acquired this property. 

 

Hopefully it's a tear down and the rest of parking lot behind this can get developed into a 3cdc special of parking garage + mixed use residential and commercial. 

Is there enough land to build anything substantial?

52 minutes ago, Miami-Erie said:

Not sure if this has been shared yet but 3CDC acquired this property. 

 

They haven't closed or the transfer hasn't been recorded yet on the Auditor's website.  

 

23 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Is there enough land to build anything substantial?

 

Sort-of.  The footprint is roughly 100x200, so roughly 1/4 the size of the Pogue's/4th & Race project, which has a 400x200 footprint.  

 

For whatever reasons the people who platted downtown Cincinnati back in 1790 or so made the blocks north of 7th half the size of 2-7.  

 

Edited October 20, 20204 yr by jmecklenborg

The original plat of the city stopped at 7th Street so everything north of there was sort of happenstance.  The north-south streets were just extended until they hit the hills, but the east-west streets were the result of random subdivisions of the old farmsteads.  There was some very early platting around the courthouse and near Betts-Longworth that may have established some of the odd east-west blocks, but at least it ended up mostly continuous.  Once you get north to OTR is where the east-west streets really fall apart due to the helter-skelter subdividing, aside from Liberty which is on a section line.  

^Yes I've seen those drawings where the streets surrounding the courthouse have been laid out but little else - I haven't read but I suspect that something with Ft. Washington caused the federal government to claim the original government square and that's how the county courthouse ended up out in the boonies.  

18 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

They haven't closed or the transfer hasn't been recorded yet on the Auditor's website.  

 

 

Garfield and Vine LLC bought it on 8/11/2020. The Garfield Mini-mart will remain open until November 1.

Posting this because it shows a rendering of what Kingsley and company wanted to do with the old convention place mall site. 
 

https://www.wcpo.com/news/local-news/i-team/how-downtown-blight-helped-the-fbi-crack-bribery-case

I like that 20 story tower design, too bad that plan appears to be dead. Maybe between Covid and the FBI investigations the millennium and this site will get re-thought and something better can come of it instead of us pushing through the easiest/most corrupt option. 

Downtown, Pendleton buildings up for sale, offer redevelopment opportunity

 

A pair of self-storage properties in Cincinnati’s core are being marketed for sale, both of which could be redeveloped.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/12/03/downtown-pendleton-buildings-up-for-sale.html

 

Interesting- the 7th street building is in the vicinity of the Vine street development (Jean Robert Table building) that was recently discussed

The Dec 7th Historic Conservation Board meeting will review a proposal to give Local Historic Landmark Designation to the Mercantile Building. The applicant is Model Group and the packet indicates that they plan to apply for state and national historic tax credits. I think this is great news. I love the Mercantile Building and it would be great to give it a sympathetic renovation (the office space is dated and needs updating) to ensure it stays relevant for another century (or more!). 

 

https://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/buildings/historic-conservation/historic-conservation-board/december-7-2020-staff-report-and-attachments/

 

Admittedly, I'm a bit biased... if you look at the photo on page 42 of the packet, you'll see "Drausin Wulsin Law Offices" on the 9th floor (the things folks did for marketing back then!). Drausin was my great grandfather's brother, so I've always always had family reasons to love the building.  

 

Edited December 3, 20204 yr by jwulsin

1 hour ago, ColDayMan said:

Downtown, Pendleton buildings up for sale, offer redevelopment opportunity

 

A pair of self-storage properties in Cincinnati’s core are being marketed for sale, both of which could be redeveloped.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/12/03/downtown-pendleton-buildings-up-for-sale.html

 

 

This is great news. It was disappointing to see these buildings converted to self-storage units a few years ago, but I'm glad the owners know there is a better and higher use for these buildings in the long term.

Mercantile Library Building takes first step to become local historic landmark

 

The Model Group is working with the owner of 414 Walnut St., better known as the Mercantile Library Building, to make the building a local historic landmark.

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2020/12/16/mercantile-library-building-takes-first-step-to.html

 

This project was just awarded Historic Tax Credits:

 

310 Perry (Cincinnati, Hamilton County)

Total Project Cost: $1,510,647

Total Tax Credit: $212,760

Address: 310 Perry, Cincinnati, 45202

Located in downtown Cincinnati's West Fourth Street Historic District, this four-story building has been vacant for more than five years. Originally serving commercial uses, the building over the years also was home to various stores until 2014. After rehabilitation is complete, the building will hold 12 apartments. Although much of the interior has already been lost to demolition, where it remains, the historic floors, walls, stairs, and trim will be repaired and retained.

22 hours ago, jwulsin said:

This project was just awarded Historic Tax Credits:

 

310 Perry (Cincinnati, Hamilton County)

Total Project Cost: $1,510,647

Total Tax Credit: $212,760

Address: 310 Perry, Cincinnati, 45202

Located in downtown Cincinnati's West Fourth Street Historic District, this four-story building has been vacant for more than five years. Originally serving commercial uses, the building over the years also was home to various stores until 2014. After rehabilitation is complete, the building will hold 12 apartments. Although much of the interior has already been lost to demolition, where it remains, the historic floors, walls, stairs, and trim will be repaired and retained.

Hopefully they keep this engineering marvel of a stair. /s

 

(it is held together with luan and drywall screws, I don't know how it could support any weight)

Edited December 18, 20204 yr by mcmicken

@mcmicken I would assume the lauan is purely decorative to cover the structural parts. It looks like they've got vertical framing that presumably bears the weight... but you're the architect and if you're concerned, then I would be too!

 

 

Edited December 18, 20204 yr by jwulsin

https://goo.gl/maps/b7KV127q5gPgGAcL6 this can hold 12 apartments?

57 minutes ago, seicer said:

https://goo.gl/maps/b7KV127q5gPgGAcL6 this can hold 12 apartments?

That does seem like a tight fit, but I believe the building stretches the entire block to 5th street. Is that correct? https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1003903,-84.5183393,3a,60y,169.16h,102.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skBEq-CRoRSjzHoKrSzfE4Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

21 minutes ago, GZC13 said:

That does seem like a tight fit, but I believe the building stretches the entire block to 5th street. Is that correct? https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1003903,-84.5183393,3a,60y,169.16h,102.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skBEq-CRoRSjzHoKrSzfE4Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The buildings appear to have been built at different times, but are now connected. The same owner owns both parcels, and all together it makes for a pretty large, complicated building. Looking at aerial images, I think they were probably built in 3 phases. 

 

Here's the aerial view looking south. 310 Perry is essentially the back half of the building. Then the 313 W 5th St parcel has two connected structures. You can see by the rooflines how the three structures are delineated. 

 

 

 

Taken 12/20.