42 minutes ago, taestell said:

All that the "entertainment district" designation does is allow new liquor licenses to be granted to bars/restaurants within the district. It is not to be confused with the Designated Outdoor Refreshment Area designation which allows people to take alcoholic beverages outside within a designated open container district... Cincinnati still has not applied to have one of those.

 

Right...I think allowing more liquor permits in these areas are great. Bars are easily the most profitable type of business for someone who wants to invest in a business.

 

I think bars are a great "gateway" for further development and usually help bring in more hospitality businesses like resturaunts and cafes in the long term. 

 

That said court street would make a perfect open container district imo!

Get a look at 3CDC’s Court Street Condos

 

 

Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. has finished its Court Street Condos project downtown.

 

3CDC developed the $8.6 million project, which adds 16 new residential condominiums and six commercial spaces at the corner of Court and Walnut streets. Joe Rudemiller, spokesman for 3CDC, said the response for the new condos has been strong. Of the 16 condos, one is already sold and six are under contract. 

 

“With the new Kroger opening right across the street, there’s really just an energy in that area and the feeling is palpable,” Rudemiller told me. “We expected Kroger to be a catalytic project for the area and we’re excited this one is following so closely behind that.”

 

More below:

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/10/15/get-a-look-at-3cdc-s-court-street-condos-photos.html

Revitalization of Court Street moves west

By Chris Wetterich  – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

 

In the past two years since the downtown Kroger grocery and apartment building was announced, there has been a spurt of residential redevelopment on Court Street around the store and Kroger’s headquarters.

Now, that revitalization is moving west.

 

MORE

Any hope of Kroger ever renovating the street level of their HQ? Its always bothered me so much 

44 minutes ago, seaswan said:

Any hope of Kroger ever renovating the street level of their HQ? Its always bothered me so much 

I haven't heard anything, but I agree it'd be good. 

A part of me wonders if Kroger would ever build a new HQ tower. That tower is from the 60s or 70s I believe so it's quite old. Also it's been quite well known that they are running low in space in the HQ building...maybe there are visions for a new modern HQ tower down the road.

2 hours ago, troeros said:

A part of me wonders if Kroger would ever build a new HQ tower. That tower is from the 60s or 70s I believe so it's quite old. Also it's been quite well known that they are running low in space in the HQ building...maybe there are visions for a new modern HQ tower down the road.

 

 

Does anyone know how much of the building Kroger uses? I have not been in there in about 10 years but what I remembered at that time, there were a number of floors that were leased by small law firms and attorney's who needed some class B space near the courthouse and county admin buildings.

 

When it was built, the Kroger HQ had more of a Lever House aesthetic to it.  Very mid-century.  The base was also much more open to Vine and Central Parkway, especially floors 2 and 3, but Court Street was even more of a blank wall at ground level than it is now. 

A Reskinnning of the building could do wonders. Here is an example from Philly:

 

Edited October 16, 20195 yr by DEPACincy

31 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

 

 

Does anyone know how much of the building Kroger uses? I have not been in there in about 10 years but what I remembered at that time, there were a number of floors that were leased by small law firms and attorney's who needed some class B space near the courthouse and county admin buildings.

 

It's almost all Kroger employees there since they took over Fred Meyer. I knew an attorney who was forced out by them.

38 minutes ago, taestell said:

If 3CDC continues to push ahead with with Court Street plans, I bet the Kroger building will get another rehab at some point, at least the hideous facade on the first three floors that screams "THIS IS A 1980's OFFICE BUILDING!"

 

They are going to probably go all glass like the two remaining sisters dorms from UC. It's cheap and easy.

 

The right way to go is to bring back the mid-century paneling but have it be more energy efficient. 

5 hours ago, The_Cincinnati_Kid said:

Revitalization of Court Street moves west

By Chris Wetterich  – Staff reporter and columnist, Cincinnati Business Courier

 

In the past two years since the downtown Kroger grocery and apartment building was announced, there has been a spurt of residential redevelopment on Court Street around the store and Kroger’s headquarters.

Now, that revitalization is moving west.

 

MORE

 

$950 studio...and it's 400 square feet...is that not crazy expensive? 

29 minutes ago, troeros said:

$950 studio...and it's 400 square feet...is that not crazy expensive? 

 

That would be considered "affordable" for anyone making about $40k/year or more. There are plenty of jobs at Kroger, 5/3, P&G, etc. that pay that, so the developer shouldn't have any trouble finding tenants who are willing to pay that to live downtown.

6 minutes ago, taestell said:

 

That would be considered "affordable" for anyone making about $40k/year or more. There are plenty of jobs at Kroger, 5/3, P&G, etc. that pay that, so the developer shouldn't have any trouble finding tenants who are willing to pay that to live downtown.

 

400 square feet though..isn't that like super cramped?

43 minutes ago, troeros said:

 

$950 studio...and it's 400 square feet...is that not crazy expensive? 

 

Not at all. I paid $1000 per month two years ago to live downtown, and it was in a 650 square foot 1 bedroom with a tiny kitchenette, no hardwood floors, no new counter tops, no new appliances, and no in-unit washer/dryer. A place like Encore charges $1,400 for a studio.

58 minutes ago, SleepyLeroy said:

 

The other question about the Kroger building is given the types of jobs, is it obsolete in some cases? It is no longer a class A building. 

As rumored, IT is moving to Fountain place, but you figure executives would prefer a nicer place that is more Class A as far as retention purposes go.

32 minutes ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

The other question about the Kroger building is given the types of jobs, is it obsolete in some cases? It is no longer a class A building. 

As rumored, IT is moving to Fountain place, but you figure executives would prefer a nicer place that is more Class A as far as retention purposes go.

 

Maybe they'll build a new HQ on the former auto garage space that was recently remade into a surface parking lot and then redevelop the existing building for residential or other purposes.  

 

Kroger has really lucked out with all of the development in the last decade - its formerly remote position on the edge of downtown is more and more the center of the action.  

18 hours ago, troeros said:

 

400 square feet though..isn't that like super cramped?

 

I paid $850/mo to live in 250 SF in a cool neighborhood in Seattle and THAT was cramped. Doing the math to compare, life in Cincinnati is 2/3 as expensive as similar in Seattle.

17 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

 

Maybe they'll build a new HQ on the former auto garage space that was recently remade into a surface parking lot and then redevelop the existing building for residential or other purposes.  

 

Kroger has really lucked out with all of the development in the last decade - its formerly remote position on the edge of downtown is more and more the center of the action.  

Or on the empty lot on Walnut and Court across from the new store.

9 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

Or on the empty lot on Walnut and Court across from the new store.

If they build a 30 story building on that lot, I think their renters, that pay for a view of the city, will have a fit.

Anyone knows who owns that lot? Curious realistically how long it will take to be redeveloped. Seems like a rather big missing puzzle piece that would help connect the cbd to court street...

hamiltoncountyauditor.org

2 hours ago, RJohnson said:

If they build a 30 story building on that lot, I think their renters, that pay for a view of the city, will have a fit.

I don't think residential renters in apartments would be given the same consideration as 1) Property owners, and 2) class A office tenants.

Residential apartment space rents out at $2 a sq ft or so whereas class A office rents out at say $21-$25/ft roughly. I doubt Kroger would give a second thought to the views of the apartment tenants. Plus creating a large office asset would only make the apartment building more popular because there are more workers who may want to live near there.  

I seriously doubt the nimby tactic of "my views" would work downtown either. Where you know, there are tall buildings everywhere. 

Edited October 18, 20195 yr by seaswan

As someone who works at Kroger HQ: I would be SHOCKED if they built a new HQ anytime soon. The grocery business is perilously low-margin and management does not believe in spending a lot on stuff it considers superfluous. I can personally imagine a reskinning happening, but with the super competitive landscape out there for Kroger today, dropping that much cash on a new building feels really unlikely. 

11 hours ago, seaswan said:

I seriously doubt the nimby tactic of "my views" would work downtown either. Where you know, there are tall buildings everywhere. 

Mike Brown seems to have a lot to say about height of buildings and I'm sure Linder, and the guys limited the height of development at The Banks. Well, not sure but I read it in a book. 

https://local12.com/news/local/parking-plan-for-court-street-downtown-cincinnati-has-some-business-owners-upset

 

3cdc wants to reduce parking from 60 spaces to 30. Court Street business owners who live in the suburbs are outraged and have now signed petitions to stop from losing their parking, even though there is a giant surface lot abd parking garage less than 500 feet away....

1 hour ago, troeros said:

https://local12.com/news/local/parking-plan-for-court-street-downtown-cincinnati-has-some-business-owners-upset

 

3cdc wants to reduce parking from 60 spaces to 30. Court Street business owners who live in the suburbs are outraged and have now signed petitions to stop from losing their parking, even though there is a giant surface lot abd parking garage less than 500 feet away....

 

How shortsighted. These business owners are shooting themselves in the foot. 

4 hours ago, troeros said:

https://local12.com/news/local/parking-plan-for-court-street-downtown-cincinnati-has-some-business-owners-upset

 

3cdc wants to reduce parking from 60 spaces to 30. Court Street business owners who live in the suburbs are outraged and have now signed petitions to stop from losing their parking, even though there is a giant surface lot abd parking garage less than 500 feet away....

Most of the parking reduction is an experiment to disincentive courthouse users. Under the old scheme, 90% of the metered spaces were being used by people going to the courthouse for trials (defendants, lawyers, jury, etc.) and they were maxing out parking and getting tickets. 

 

Also there will likely be angled parking on the south side of Court west of Vine for at least a block. So, in total there will be MORE street parking than before!

 

These business owners are on the committee and their concerns are being looked at. So this petition is more of a PR stunt than anything.

With a few good decisions and sensible support, Court Street could easily become the place to be in the urban core. 

 

14 hours ago, ZoeBarnes said:

With a few good decisions and sensible support, Court Street could easily become the place to be in the urban core. 

 

 

Things I think would help with this:

1) Kroger would need to redo their first couple floors of their tower so they interact with Court Street instead of being a bunker wall

2) Infill build on the parking lot south of the new Kroger

3) Renovate the building on the corner of Court and main.  This one looks very rough right now.

My plan for Court Street in 2008 when Playhouse in the Park talked about moving to downtown. Replace the Playhouse with the new Kroger and it doesn't change much.

https://queencitysurvey.blogspot.com/2008/10/raise-rutherford_27.html

Edited December 19, 20195 yr by BallHatGuy

54 minutes ago, JoeHarmon said:

 

Things I think would help with this:

1) Kroger would need to redo their first couple floors of their tower so they interact with Court Street instead of being a bunker wall

2) Infill build on the parking lot south of the new Kroger

3) Renovate the building on the corner of Court and main.  This one looks very rough right now.

1) I think #1 is a bit difficult since the bottom floors in that building are pretty much used as a parking garage now. It is hard to have the ceiling height to turn it into reasonable office space.

2) Infill build on the South Lot would be ideal. A Kroger office tower would be a good fit, another apartment tower with mixed use below would be a fit (What would the big retail tenant be though?) Movie theatre would be nice too in that spot (Esquireesque theatre), hotel.

3) The building at Court and Main is not really that concerning to me. Would rather redevelop the lot on Central and Walnut into an apartment building if I had my choice.

https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2019/12/20/exclusive-4eg-partner-talks-keystone-closing-new.html?iana=hpmvp_cinci_news_headline

 

4EG is bringing a new bar concept to Court Street by Kroger. The location was not mentioned, but if I had to guess it probably is next to the recently renovated 3cdc cluster of buildings. 

 

I'm suspecting with the new liquor licenses issued for court street we will to start a small little entertainment strip that's equivelent to the banks/main Street. 

Fourth story addition on the Great Clips building is underway...

 

 

On 7/3/2019 at 4:52 PM, lobanio0 said:

HJH Realty Corp is looking to add a fourth floor on court street(great clips building) keeping with historical standing.  They also looking to add 5 units to floors 2-4.  Interesting to see a entire floor level added. 

 

Making progress:

 

It appears that the roof has a large, central skylight. Anybody know if there's a central stairwell? It'd be neat if the skylight allowed light all the way down to through the stairwell. I'm curious how the apartment units will be laid out (perhaps a front and rear unit on each floor?).

The latest Planning Commission packet has an update on the Court Street renovation. I'm not sure if any of these renderings are new, so apologies if they have been posted before.

 

The city wants construction to start in late summer or early fall, and be completed by Spring 2021.

 

 

Iconic Feature?  Like another sculpture of William Henry Harrison? 

They need to do something with the South Side of Court and Walnut

2 hours ago, jmecklenborg said:

Iconic Feature?  Like another sculpture of William Henry Harrison? 

Triceracopter.

With the #6 building highlighted in green above, they have an excellent opportunity to create an 'active lane' on the building's south side. It is an ideal spot to develop the ground floor in such a way with a restaurant/bar opened onto the lane, with indoor/outdoor seating at table top height. The lane itself could have catenary lighting. etc. Something like Centre Place Lane in Melbourne. 

Edited July 21, 20204 yr by atlas

7 hours ago, atlas said:

With the #6 building highlighted in green above, they have an excellent opportunity to create an 'active lane' on the building's south side. It is an ideal spot to develop the ground floor in such a way with a restaurant/bar opened onto the lane, with indoor/outdoor seating at table top height. The lane itself could have catenary lighting. etc. Something like Centre Place Lane in Melbourne. 

 

I like the idea of activating the alley (both east and west of Vine St) with nice lighting and open windows facing the alley, as long as it can continue to serve residents as a public right-of-way. One of my favorite spots in all of the urban basin is the intersection of Baldwin and Pendery alleys (streetview), which is half a block west of Vine. But one consideration: if restaurants/bars orient themselves towards the alley, that could mean fewer visible people along Court Street. If there are enough customers to activate both Court St and the alley, that's the best scenario, but if I had to choose, I think it's more important to see Court St activated and full of people. 

8 hours ago, taestell said:

Triceracopter.

 

 

53 minutes ago, jwulsin said:

One of my favorite spots in all of the urban basin is the intersection of Baldwin and Pendery alleys (streetview), which is half a block west of Vine.

 

I believe the two large surface parking lots on that block are owned by Kroger and used for employee parking. If they are seriously committed to the revitalization of Court Street, they should tell those employees to park in the Court and Walnut garage and redevelop those lots.

 

On 7/21/2020 at 11:46 PM, jwulsin said:

 

I like the idea of activating the alley (both east and west of Vine St) with nice lighting and open windows facing the alley, as long as it can continue to serve residents as a public right-of-way. One of my favorite spots in all of the urban basin is the intersection of Baldwin and Pendery alleys (streetview), which is half a block west of Vine. But one consideration: if restaurants/bars orient themselves towards the alley, that could mean fewer visible people along Court Street. If there are enough customers to activate both Court St and the alley, that's the best scenario, but if I had to choose, I think it's more important to see Court St activated and full of people. 

Start small with the portion of the alley between Vine and Doerr. That section doesn’t need to be used for servicing, etc and can also visually spill onto Vine St.

 

The thing with the Melbourne example, in the 90s they focused a lot of their downtown revitalization around the laneways, and because they offer an atmosphere/experience totally unique and different to the suburban or Main Street experience, they flourished and led to spinoff development and activity on all streets, too. 
 

What I take away from this is until you understand and exploit your ‘place’ value, you’re just going to be scratching around the edges and you’ll never reach potential. Court Street is nice, but it is also a somewhat standard street and will rely on heavy programming to make work. A Cincinnati Laneway strategy would be new, different, create a unique destination and change the way restaurants and retail are done. 

^ Seems like Gano Street and Luth Lyons Lane would be ideal for this as well, since you already have bars/restaurants on multiple sides, House of Adam ready to be redeveloped, and lights already strung.

17 hours ago, atlas said:

Start small with the portion of the alley between Vine and Doerr. That section doesn’t need to be used for servicing, etc and can also visually spill onto Vine St.

 

The thing with the Melbourne example, in the 90s they focused a lot of their downtown revitalization around the laneways, and because they offer an atmosphere/experience totally unique and different to the suburban or Main Street experience, they flourished and led to spinoff development and activity on all streets, too. 
 

What I take away from this is until you understand and exploit your ‘place’ value, you’re just going to be scratching around the edges and you’ll never reach potential. Court Street is nice, but it is also a somewhat standard street and will rely on heavy programming to make work. A Cincinnati Laneway strategy would be new, different, create a unique destination and change the way restaurants and retail are done. 

 

Agreed 100% that they should focus on creating unique spaces (both in the alleys and also facing Court St), and I like your idea about starting with the block between Vine and Doerr since it would be highly visible to people walking up and down Vine. 

Apparently the "final version" of the Court Street revitalization plan is going to be revealed today. Hopefully not too much of a deviation from the renderings we saw in July (see above).

Cincinnati unveils overhaul of Court Street focused on boosting pedestrians - Business Courier

 

Quote

Project highlights include:

 

• Replace all of the trees, whose roots are bulging and disrupting the existing sidewalk, some of which is built with bricks.
• Sidewalk width will increase from 13 feet to 38 feet on the north side and 20 feet to 44 feet on the south side and be the same height as the street, a festival-style design that allows for vehicular closure to open the entire street to pedestrians for organized events.
• 28 on-street metered spaces will remain on the south side of the street, in addition to the 36 spaces at a new surface parking lot at Court and Walnut streets and the downtown Kroger garage, which has about 240 spaces. Kroger’s downtown headquarters also is on the block.