April 16, 20196 yr 2 hours ago, E Rocc said: Poland just might, for a Catholic church this prominent. Especially if it's even possible that this was intentionally set. Would they even want to rebuild it with wood though? The Cologne Cathedral's roof was built in the 1800s and they used iron instead of wood (as iron was available by the 19th Century but not in the Middle Ages.) It seems like it'd make more sense to use steel or some metal?
April 16, 20196 yr Saw this on Reddit and hoping the gist ... that the interior damage isn't as bad as one might have thought when watching the roof burn ... is accurate: https://imgur.com/gallery/PSxHvhR
April 16, 20196 yr What are the thoughts of rebuilding all the roof trusses in steel this time? Obviously the wood was pretty in an old school "how did they do that" way but almost no one ever saw it and apparently if it catches fire there is no way to put it out. Seems like the cathedrals always used the newest/best materials of the day to the fullest extent, so why not expand on that and rebuild it with a safer/stronger/more long lasting & sustainable material now in 2019? Just my thinking, I'd obviously would have preferred the wood to not to have self immolated itself.
April 16, 20196 yr Especially if it's going to be invisible from the nave (and at least with respect to the frame, largely from the outside as well), I would see no particular problem building with steel or any other modern building materials. Churches, especially Catholic ones, do have certain architectural expectations (many Catholics cringe at Protestant megachurches stuffed into old warehouses, not to mention some more ugly modern architectural monstrosities that were apparently intentionally built as churches, for reasons I can't explain). The architecture is supposed to support the atmosphere and acoustics and other environmental elements of being a place of reverence and worship. But beyond that, it's a building like any other. "Not burning down" is a high priority in any building (statement of the obvious of the day).
April 16, 20196 yr 10 minutes ago, SleepyLeroy said: What are the thoughts of rebuilding all the roof trusses in steel this time? Obviously the wood was pretty in an old school "how did they do that" way but almost no one ever saw it and apparently if it catches fire there is no way to put it out. Seems like the cathedrals always used the newest/best materials of the day to the fullest extent, so why not expand on that and rebuild it with a safer/stronger/more long lasting & sustainable material now in 2019? Just my thinking, I'd obviously would have preferred the wood to not to have self immolated itself. It can be rebuilt with wood with "fire stops" that will contain any subsequent fires. I just don't know though - it's almost inconceivable. This building was SO OLD that it was built at a time when Europe it had 72 million inhabitants, today it has 750 million. As noted above, France just doesn't have forests like that anymore.
April 16, 20196 yr 43 minutes ago, TPH2 said: Would they even want to rebuild it with wood though? The Cologne Cathedral's roof was built in the 1800s and they used iron instead of wood (as iron was available by the 19th Century but not in the Middle Ages.) It seems like it'd make more sense to use steel or some metal? Doh, just scrolled up and saw this after i said something similar a few minutes later.
April 16, 20196 yr See this tweet thread for questions about the wood. I would assume they would replace with wood again because they have been preparing for this day.
April 16, 20196 yr ^ I've seen this online quite a bit, but I've yet to see a good source on it. Not saying it's not true, but still waiting to see a legit source.
April 16, 20196 yr A lot of people online are saying it's not true. I don't know what to believe, but it seems like it couldn't nearly be enough to replace the wood lost in Notre-Dame
April 16, 20196 yr It may end up being steel just out of necessity. Trusses can be designed to be self-supporting without adding outward thrust to the supporting walls below, which is what the flying buttresses are for. While the structure of the masonry walls has held for centuries, that doesn't mean it'll last forever, and now it's been compromised by heat. Some cathedrals have had walls collapse, and others (like Chartres I believe) have some worrying bowing in their columns. So new engineered trusses could be made to take the horizontal loading off the walls and give the building a new lease on life. They could probably do trusses out of wood too, such as with glue-lams or laminated-veneer-lumber that are engineered into trusses, but it may not be prudent considering the scale and the lack of public access. Heavy timber is supposed to be fireproof, but maybe this was just too old and too dry, and there was too much other non-heavy timber that kept it burning. I am kind of surprised they never put a sprinkler system of some sort up there.
April 16, 20196 yr If no one sees this area in between the ceiling and the roof anyway, I don’t see the point in using wood instead of steel to rebuild. Edited April 16, 20196 yr by thebillshark www.cincinnatiideas.com
April 16, 20196 yr I don't really think there's any question as to whether or not they'll use steel to re-frame the roof. It'll be cheaper, it's non-combustible (and can be spray-fireproofed), more lightweight, and most importantly - isn't visible from the public spaces, anyway.
April 16, 20196 yr 8 hours ago, Ram23 said: I don't really think there's any question as to whether or not they'll use steel to re-frame the roof. It'll be cheaper, it's non-combustible (and can be spray-fireproofed), more lightweight, and most importantly - isn't visible from the public spaces, anyway. Edited April 17, 20196 yr by jmecklenborg
April 17, 20196 yr ^ I think they could make it look almost identical from the air with modern materials. The only place anyone would see a difference is in the behind-the-scenes attic spaces like in the picture below. Instead of timber posts and joists, they'd frame it with steel beams and columns. Instead of lead plates atop wood boards for the roof itself, they'd use metal deck and modern roofing materials. Maybe add a fire suppression system while they're at it. I think a huge problem with rebuilding the roof in a way that's 100% faithful to the original design is that they'd be creating the same exact conditions that allowed the fire to spread uncontrollably - a lot of combustible wood material in a concealed space that's not able to be doused from firelighters outside.
April 17, 20196 yr 22 minutes ago, Ram23 said: Instead of lead plates atop wood boards for the roof itself, they'd use metal deck and modern roofing materials. Maybe add a fire suppression system while they're at it. Is this what the exterior-facing surface of the roof was made of? Lead plates? I hadn't known that. Well, they probably won't do that again, either, but there are plenty of ways to do a roof with modern methods (especially if budget isn't much of an object) that don't look cheap or gaudy.
April 17, 20196 yr For comparison sake, here's the roof structure at Chartres Cathedral (my personal favorite). The original lead and timber roof was burned by fire in 1836 and replaced with this cast iron structure, topped with a copper roof: Edited April 17, 20196 yr by Ram23
April 19, 20196 yr Bee hives survive the Notre Dame fire: https://apnews.com/92db19558da04f09b94cc31fb5ce16a5 In a hopeful development Friday, 180,000 bees being kept in in hives on Notre Dame’s lead roofing were discovered alive. “I am so relieved. I saw satellite photos that showed the three hives didn’t burn. I thought they had gone with the cathedral,” Nicolas Geant, the monument’s beekeeper, told the AP. Geant has looked after the bees since 2013, when they were installed as part of a city-wide initiative to boost declining bee numbers. Since the insects have no lungs, Geant said the carbon dioxide in the fire’s heavy smoke put the bees into a sedated state instead of killing them. He said when bees sense fire they “gorge themselves on honey” and protect their queen. He said European bees never abandon their hives.
May 17, 20196 yr interesting! SWEDISH FIRM PROPOSES TURNING NOTRE DAME ROOF INTO A GIANT SWIMMING POOL As a “space for thinking and self-reflection” Paul Joseph Watson | Infowars.com - MAY 16, 2019 A Swedish architecture firm has proposed turning the roof of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris into a giant swimming pool. Yes, seriously. In line with the French government’s announcement that a modern, contemporary redesign would be preferred, Stockholm-based Ulf Mejergren Architects (UMA) say the roof of the gothic church should become “a new meditative space with unmatched views over Paris.” more: https://www.infowars.com/swedish-firm-proposes-turning-notre-dame-roof-into-a-giant-swimming-pool/
May 17, 20196 yr I expect the absolute worst from this renovation, because all sorts of smartest-dudes-in-the-room see this as a career-defining opportunity if they can get their garish design plopped on this thing.
July 18, 20195 yr The NY Times did a nice technical follow-up on the fire: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/07/16/world/europe/notre-dame.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage I am still somewhat astonished that a fire station was never built on the island itself in preparation for this inevitability.
July 10, 20204 yr Author France has announced that Notre Dame will be restored as closely to original structure as possible. Also...the fire was just over a year ago? It feels like it happened a decade ago...
September 23, 20204 yr pretty cool! The medieval carpentry techniques used in Notre Dame cathedral rebuild CNA Staff, Sep 23, 2020 / 12:00 am MT (CNA).- After fire toppled the iconic spire and destroyed the roof of the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, France in April 2009, heated debates ensued about whether the reconstruction should use the church’s original design, or use a more modern design and technique. Some proposed futuristic ideas included a rooftop swimming pool and a greenhouse atop the 850-year-old cathedral. Last year, the French Senate passed a bill mandating that Notre-Dame be rebuilt as it was before the fire, with lumber and medieval carpentry techniques, which were highlighted in a public demonstration Saturday in the cathedral’s square. “It shows…firstly that we made the right choice in choosing to rebuild the carpentry identically, in oak from France,” Gen. Jean-Louis Georgelin, who heads the reconstruction efforts, told the AP. “Secondly, it shows us the...method by which we will rebuild the framework, truss after truss.” The public carpentry demonstration was held Sept. 19 as part of European Heritage Days. The triangular truss highlighted at the event was the seventh of a total of 25 new trusses that will be installed in the nave of the cathedral during the rebuild. more: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-medieval-carpentry-techniques-used-in-notre-dame-cathedral-rebuild-67343 watch: https://www.france24.com/en/20200920-france-s-annual-heritage-celebration-returns-despite-coronavirus
September 23, 20204 yr I approve of the classical concept of the restoration, but I don't know about going all the way back to actual medieval carpentry techniques. After all, what those medieval artisans themselves would have said is that they were using the best techniques available at the time. They themselves would probably have been fine using more modern building techniques if they were alive today. But still interesting to see what artisans so many centuries ago did have to go through to get Notre Dame built.
September 23, 20204 yr On 4/17/2019 at 9:55 AM, Ram23 said: I think a huge problem with rebuilding the roof in a way that's 100% faithful to the original design is that they'd be creating the same exact conditions that allowed the fire to spread uncontrollably - a lot of combustible wood material in a concealed space that's not able to be doused from firelighters outside. Fingers crossed I guess?
September 23, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, Gramarye said: I approve of the classical concept of the restoration, but I don't know about going all the way back to actual medieval carpentry techniques. After all, what those medieval artisans themselves would have said is that they were using the best techniques available at the time. They themselves would probably have been fine using more modern building techniques if they were alive today. But still interesting to see what artisans so many centuries ago did have to go through to get Notre Dame built. Indeed. Although some old carpentry techniques were really good. Modern construction tends to require less labor (and thus is cheaper) but is not always better. A box built with screws vs dovetails.
September 23, 20204 yr Well there's design techniques and fabrication techniques. Design techniques would be the dovetails, mortise & tenon, pegs, etc., versus bolts, plates, rods, and screws. Fabrication techniques would be using the hand saws, axes, and chisels versus power saws, planers, routers, and sandpaper. You can match the old design using modern methods, but if you really want the hand hewn finish and slight variances in joints from the original, then those antique fabrication techniques are probably the way to go too. They certainly look good on the camera, but I haven't heard about them adding sprinklers, firewalls, or other improvements that could prevent this from happening again. It seems way too emotionally charged and illogical.
December 20, 20204 yr the latest news: https://www.travelandleisure.com/travel-news/restorers-remove-dangerous-notre-dame-cathedral-scaffolding?amp=true
March 25, 20214 yr wood from berce in the loire will be part of the new spire: https://www.cnn.com/style/article/notre-dame-rebuild-oak-trees/index.html
May 29, 20214 yr you can sponsor a statue for the rebuild efforts: https://hyperallergic.com/647418/help-rebuild-notre-dame-by-sponsoring-a-statue/?utm_campaign=week-in-review&utm_content=20210528&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter
November 22, 20213 yr why am i not surprized? 90% of initial donations were from regular americans, few from french or euro tycoons: Small donors, not French tycoons, foot Notre Dame work bills by Thomas Adamson, Associated Press Friday, June 14th 2019 PARIS (AP) — The billionaire French donors who publicly promised flashy donations totaling hundreds of millions to rebuild Notre Dame have not yet paid a penny toward the restoration of the French national monument, according to church and business officials. Instead, it's been mainly American and French citizens, via charitable foundations at Notre Dame, that have footed the bills and paid salaries for the up to 150 workers employed by the cathedral since the April 15 fire that devastated the cathedral's roof and caused its masterpiece spire to collapse. This month they are handing over the first payment for the cathedral's reconstruction of 3.6 million e more: https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/small-donors-not-french-tycoons-foot-notre-dame-work-bills?fbclid=IwAR094cLvk6kmVpyXdkeEIZUjdgZckOjBaYOu1B4--b_VU16cOeWC7tymqAc
December 4, 20213 yr national review claims new notre dame will be a woke disney experience: https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/12/saving-notre-dame-cathedral/
December 4, 20213 yr For a deeper dive on the controversy around the renovations, from a site that is genuinely Catholic (rather than NR, which I like, but to be fair, it's primarily American-conservative and sympathizes with Catholicism only to the extent it's convenient to do so for the sake of the American conservative movement): https://www.pillarcatholic.com/p/what-is-notre-dame-cathedral-for Critics of the scheme have said the restoration plans amount to turning the iconic Gothic church into a kind of woke, a spiritual “Disneyland;” a tourist attraction full of mood lighting, modern art, and “emotional spaces.” But the priest responsible for the plans has pushed back, and offered a rationale for the redesign. He has insisted the aim is to preserve the cathedral’s focus on divine liturgy while embracing the catechetical potential offered by Notre Dame’s status as a global tourist attraction. ... There are, it would seem from the reports, legitimate questions about good taste regarding at least parts of the plans; abstract cloudscapes are not for everyone at the best of times. In a landmark building, restored after the French Revolution to recapture the glory of medieval European Catholicism, words like “heritage” and “history” are not invoked lightly. But, issues of aesthetics aside, Fr. Drouin’s rationale for a renewed interior raises interesting questions about how best to use the cathedral, and how to account for the fact that most visitors to Notre Dame are tourists, not worshipers. ... Is it possible to accept Drouin’s premise, even while criticizing the particulars of the plan in place. ===================================== For a sense of the scale of tourists vs. worshippers: Notre-Dame de Paris has (had) a seating capacity of 9,000. If that were full for three masses every Sunday and one daily mass on other days, it would be 4.2 million mass-goers in a year. (That number is of course wildly in excess of the actual number, quite possibly by a factor of 100.) It sees about 12 million tourists per year.
December 6, 20213 yr ^ well national review founder bill buckley was a rather famous catholic. i dk how they have drifted since his days though -- i don't look at nr very often. the interior renovations seem pretty woke to me and the criticism valid, but i can understand the other side of maintaining the structure as modern tourist destination. the catholic church has never been good with handling modernism.
March 15, 20223 yr not surprising, but still pretty cool something good and interesting can come from the fire: Ancient tombs unearthed at Paris' Notre Dame cathedral Agence France-Presse March 15, 2022 Several tombs and a leaden sarcophagus likely dating from the 14th century have been uncovered by archaeologists at Paris' Notre Dame cathedral following its devastating 2019 fire, France's culture ministry has said. Among the tombs was the "completely preserved, human-shaped sarcophagus made of lead," it added. The coffin might have been made for "a senior dignitary" and likely dated from the 1300s -- the century following the cathedral's construction. more: https://www.rawstory.com/ancient-tombs-unearthed-at-paris-notre-dame-cathedral/
December 5, 20222 yr update news — Paris’s Notre-Dame Will Become Part of a New Sustainable Microclimate After Notre-Dame de Paris burned in 2019, French politicians promised to rebuild the 12th-century cathedral as it was. But the city of Paris, which has pledged to be the greenest city in Europe by 2030, decided to take advantage of the restoration to rethink the surrounding gardens and esplanade, known as the parvis, as an eco-friendly public space. In September 2021, the mayor launched a pro-environment design competition for the site, and last June, the jury unanimously selected a team led by award-winning Belgian landscape architect Bas Smets. Their proposal will turn the Île de la Cité, the island in the Seine where Notre-Dame sits, into a sustainable microclimate. more: https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/pariss-notre-dame-will-become-part-of-a-new-sustainable-microclimate/ar-AA14K8zw
December 5, 20222 yr usa! usa! go go le usa! US Organizations Helping France Reconstruct Notre Dame Cathedral November 24, 2022 11:30 AM Karina Bafradzhian More than three years since a devastating fire burned parts of the Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, reconstruction is underway, and organizations from the United States are helping. Karina Bafradzhian has the story. more: https://www.voanews.com/a/us-organizations-helping-france-reconstruct-notre-dame-cathedral/6848666.html
December 5, 20222 yr et le petite controversy — Notre Dame's fresh interior—cleaned with controversial latex paste—will deliver a 'shock', restoration chief promises Conservationists raise concerns that by cleaning the Paris cathedral's fire-damaged interior stonework it will become "artificially bright" With plans for its revamp already denounced as more Disneyland than devotional, the interior of the Notre Dame cathedral in Paris is set to deliver further surprises when it reopens its doors in 2024. At a public engagement event to mark the 39th edition of European Heritage Days, Jean-Louis Georgelin, an army general charged with organising the restoration of Notre Dame, said that after centuries of neglect, the newly cleaned interior would be “a shock”. The current cleaning phase involves the application of a latex paste to the interior stonework. After a few days, the latex can be peeled off, bringing with it accumulated dust and dirt. Speaking to The Times in September Philippe Villeneuve, the chief architect of French national historic monuments, said that once completed the cathedral would be “luminous”. more: https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2022/11/22/notre-dames-fresh-interiorcleaned-with-controversial-latex-pastewill-deliver-a-shock-restoration-chief-promises
December 5, 20222 yr when will it be done ??? Notre Dame restoration on track to be completed by 5th anniversary of tragic fire Notre Dame is currently scheduled to reopen in 2024. ByAnna Rabemanantsoa October 1, 2022 PARIS -- The restoration work inside Notre Dame cathedral is ramping up. Less than two years before the grand reopening, Notre Dame’s exceptional stained glass windows and paintings, which were spared by the flames that ravaged the monument back in April 2019, are now being given a fresh look. This past spring, eight workshops of master glassmakers and artistic locksmiths were selected across France and entrusted with the cleaning and restoration of the cathedral’s stained glass windows. “This is the first time they have been cleaned since … they were laid in the 19th century, 150 years ago,” president of the Manufacture Vincent-Petit and restorer Flavie Vincent-Petit revealed to ABC News. more: https://abcnews.go.com/International/notre-dame-restoration-track-completed-5th-anniversary-tragic/story?id=89512293
December 27, 20222 yr wow --- a look inside notre dame restoration progress courtesy of the today show:
December 27, 20222 yr PBS has a great documentary on the subject. Its available free on YouTube. I suggest checking it out. The lengths that the French are going to for the restoration is simply next lever. They are aiming for a summer 24 completion to showcase their masterpiece in time for the summer Olympics.
December 29, 20222 yr On 12/27/2022 at 12:06 PM, NsideProp said: PBS has a great documentary on the subject. Its available free on YouTube. I suggest checking it out. The lengths that the French are going to for the restoration is simply next lever. They are aiming for a summer 24 completion to showcase their masterpiece in time for the summer Olympics. There was some talk about making it more "inclusive" when the restoration started. That would be the height of inappropriate, much like doing so to the Dome of The Rock.
December 29, 20222 yr 2 hours ago, E Rocc said: Dome of The Rock No offense to Notre Dame but it is not the Dome of The Rock. "You don't just walk into a bar and mix it up by calling a girl fat" - buildingcincinnati speaking about new forumers
December 29, 20222 yr 7 minutes ago, ColDayMan said: No offense to Notre Dame but it is not the Dome of The Rock. Better comparison is probably Hagia Sophia, which was a museum for 85 years.
December 29, 20222 yr 3 hours ago, E Rocc said: There was some talk about making it more "inclusive" when the restoration started. catholic [ kath-uh-lik, kath-lik ] adjective 1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal. 2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.
December 29, 20222 yr 47 minutes ago, ColDayMan said: No offense to Notre Dame but it is not the Dome of The Rock. In France it pretty much is.
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